Dr. Rahal and deposit question

[DavidEur]

I recently documented my story on this forum regarding a failed HT with a former coalition doctor in the US.

 

To add to the mess, I also then lost $2000 deposit after booking a late spot with Dr. Rahal only 20 days in advance of a procedure (to coincide with a trip to the the US from Europe) as I cancelled at 10 days pre-op due to concerns that I'd be unable to go back to work 14 days post-op looking presentable.

 

I'm willing to take my share of the blame for being too hasty (and desperate after failure of first transplant). But I also feel I've been unfairly treated by Dr. Rahal's practice.

 

To reiterate, I only had direct contact with the patient coordinator, never Dr. Rahal. When enquiring about the procedure, I said I hoped to be back at work in 14 days and was told I'd need to shave down.

 

I specifically stated that this would be difficult. I was told they could make it stubble, instead of a zero guard. I thought ok, I'll deal with that. I paid the deposit.

 

My grudge is this:-after I paid the deposit, I was then sent all the pre and post-op instructions stating I couldn't even touch the recipient area for 14 days, at which time scabs could begin to be gently removed. Shouldn't I have been told this before I paid a non-refundable deposit? (it wasn't stated it was non-refundable, it was assumed I'd checked the website).

 

The patient coordinator knew well of my concerns, but he neglected to tell me. And the info is not on their website. Why not? I can't turn up to work with scabs all along my hairlines, out of the question given my line of work. Shouldn't there be some terms and conditions when paying up-front that the patient is made aware of?

 

As I said, I messed up, but not to the tune of $2000. I think it's unethical. Am I wrong here? To be fair to them, they do state on their website that cancellations with less than 30 days notice lose 50% deposit, less than 14 days 100% irrespective of the reason. But this must apply to patients who book more than 30 days before, not patients who only book 20 days before? Who hasn't been given all the info needed? $2000 is a lot of cash.

 

Isn't the point of a deposit to ensure the doctor doesn't lose business by booking a spot that might have been filled by someone else, that then falls through?

 

Given that 14 days pre-op is the latest booking time (as the patient coordinator told me), that would mean that Dr. Rahal lost a potential customer between day 20 and day 14 pre-op.

 

In the defence of Dr. Rahal, the coordinator said they could ask a local patient to take another day so I could get the procedure on the Monday. They rushed things to fit me in too (and I mean that in their defence).

 

In addition I've no doubts Dr. Rahal is second to none in his skill, and by all accounts he sounds like a very decent guy. But in this instance I feel they've acted unethically by failing to accept that they have some responsibility for letting a prospective patient know what's ahead for him when they accept a considerable deposit. Again, I was too hasty and didn't perform due diligence but I never knew any doctor required that the recipient area can't be touched for 2 weeks. I believe it's highly unusual.

 

I was offered $1000 discount if I re-booked with Dr. Rahal but I simply can't follow such a stringent protocol, I need discretion so will go to a coalition doctor that doesn't require shaving and actively encourages removal of scabs at an earlier time point (such as Shapiro). Why is there zero info on Dr. Rahal's extensive website about the stringent post-op protocol, including no exercise for 3 months?

 

Apologise for the long whine, but this has left a bad taste in my mouth and I'd be very interested to hear if I'm out of line here :confused:

[RodG]

Hi,

 

No offence but you probably need to do your research properly. The doctor offered you 50% of your deposit back if you undergo a HT procedure with the clinic.

 

To be honest it took about 3 - 4 weeks for the scabs to come off. I am a norwood VI and I went back to work after 2 weeks.

 

My understanding is it takes about 10 days for the grafts to be secure in your scalp and I think it wouldn't be advisable to start rubbing them until this time. I think my clinic told me that 14 days after the procedure I could gently rub the scabs off.

 

Best of luck.

 

Regards

 

Rod

[MusoInOz]

Hey mate,

 

I hate to break it to you but all of this information is on Dr Rahals website regarding refunds etc. I do understand your frustration but as stated above this could have been avoided with either more questions or further research. I am not attempting to state this is your fault just noting a cautious approach should have been taken. Perhaps a rep from the clinic may wish to chime in, no doubt that they will.

 

Cheers,

[Michael5577]

Here's the key: according to scientific literature, the grafts are secure after 9 days, let's say 10 days to be extra cautious. You may pretty much do as you please after two weeks.

 

The protocol might say don't exercise for 3 months - a ridiculous and unnecessary length of time - but I was back on tennis courts after about three weeks. Maybe it'll affect my scar or maybe not. I can't possibly be expected to do nothing for three months. I've consulted enough reputable HT doctors' protocols to know that normally you may begin physical activity: running, etc. after 2 weeks. The protocols are a general guideline and they aren't Gospel Truth. There's too much variety among top doctors. By the way, Dr. Rahal told me that I should wait at least three weeks before resuming playing tennis.

 

But no offence, in this instance you were careless and have only yourself to blame. Dr. Rahal is very ethical.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Michael5577

[HARIRI]

DavidEur, I think in 14 days you are pretty safe, It’s just that some hair transplant clinic over length the period to not face any responsibility if anything goes wrong, an extra allowance of time to make sure everything is ok. Just like what Michael5577 said, "The grafts are secure after 9 days; let's say 10 days to be extra cautious. You may pretty much do as you please after two weeks".

 

Just like one day H&W told me, you should NOT use Minoxidil 2 months before surgery, but not necessary, most doctors say one month, and some few says 2 weeks. It’s all about the personal perspective of doctors.

 

However I know Dr Rahal is very cautious and caring to the patients, Many doctors like SMG and H&W told me I can travel back home the day after my surgery where Dr Rahal insisted that I stay at least 5 days in Ottawa before I travel back which made me feel that he cares a lot about me as a patient. Most doctors wants you to go home soon to not follow up the post OP care with the patient as they are fully booked and very busy.

 

All what I can say that Dr Rahal is very ethical and a patient friend rather than a doctor only. I’m sure 10-12 days are enough, I asked few doctors about that before. Just take it easy buddy and enjoy the HT, it happens only once and worth the wait. You can follow Dr Shapiro regime in post Op care, its applicable with which ever Doctor you have an HT with. It’s all hair transplant (the same) just different philosophy in Post Op care method. Feel free to follow any. Wish you the entire luck buddy.

[Sparky]

Day 1 until complete: Use the sterilised water/saline spray every two hours on the recipient area

and gently wipe off any residue below/around the grafted area. Continue until the bottle is finished.

 

Days 2 to 7 Post Operation: Lather the Betadine shampoo in your hands or spray directly on to the grafted area, gently "pat" onto the grafts but do not massage. To wash off apply minimum water pressure using a cup of warm water to rinse off the shampoo. Wash once a day.

 

Days 8 to 14 Post Operation: Apply the Betadine shampoo but with gentle circular massage to the scalp and now use normal water pressure. You may now also use a mild “baby” shampoo after the Betadine. Wash once or twice a day.

 

Of course you can touch the grafts before 14 days, otherwise you would still have scabs at 14 days!

[Sparky]

Took that off of another good clinic's website.

[Michael5577]

Just like one day H&W told me, you should NOT use Minoxidil 2 months before surgery, but not necessary, most doctors say one month, and some few says 2 weeks. It’s all about the personal perspective of doctors.

 

Why can't one use Minoxidil the day before surgery?

[DavidEur]

Thanks a lot for your thoughts guys, very much appreciated. It's good to hear objective opinions, (I perhaps can't see so clearly as I saw hard earned money disappear into thin air).

 

MusoInOz, RodG and Michael5577 agree 100%, I was too hasty, and deposit info is on website.

 

However, I don't think I'm entirely to blame. My point is that the when I discussed the back to work issue, the patient coordinator might have said "Please also note that we require that you can't touch scabs for 14days so you'll most likely be going back to work with scabs still on your hairline". That's it. Then I could have made a more informed decision.

 

I think losing 50% would have been more fair.

 

HARIRI, thanks for good wishes, agree, a HT SHOULD only happen once (with my starting point) but I was unfortunate in my choice of doctor for the first. On a positive note, I'm 100% confident this can be resolved with another small procedure with a top doc.

 

Thanks for info Sparky.

 

The issue touched on by several of you regarding following post-protocol as advised is interesting. Either you believe the doctor who operated on your or not. In this instance, I'd have to say to Dr. Rahal "I've got no doubt you're fantastic at performing the operation, but I hope you don't mind if I rub the scabs off earlier than 14 days as other doctors think that's ok".

 

Or going to another doctor and saying "I know you advised me to start gently washing and rubbing scabs off at day7 but Dr. Rahal says they should only have vitamin E dripped on until day 14 before touching and I have more faith in his protocol".

 

Not sure how well that would go down (unless you decided not to mention it).

 

In retrospect what I would have done is written to Dr. Rahal and asked "On this occasion can we please break protocol and (1) start removing scabs at 12 days and (2) removed stitches at 12 days and not 14?"

 

I work in a small medical community and even finding someone 'anonymous' who could remove stitches at 14 days is not possible (and I wanted to do this discretely)

Edited February 14, 2011 by DavidEur

[Sparky]

Most docs say that the majority of scabs should be gone by 2 weeks.

[HARIRI]

What if i told you, that my stitches were removed by day 10 and my scabs were removed also by day 10.. Because of what my previous doctor told me to do and everything went fine however i hope thats healthy otherwise i would know by now that its the reason of my poor growth lol.

[Ozguy]

I had a procedure with Dr. Rahal about two months ago and I followed the post operative instructions carefully. By the time the two weeks were up, most of the scabs had flaked off, they felt more like dust on your head. It only took one shower, one the fourteenth day, to remove them all.

[Rahal Hair Transplant]

First of all thank you for sharing your story and we are sorry you are not happy about your booking experience.

But to call Dr Rahal unethical is out of line and since this is a public forum we do take great offense and respectfully ask you to withdraw the comment.

The pre op /post op instructions were sent soon after we processed your deposit on January 11th, 2011 and we always formalize the surgical booking before sending out the surgical documents (sent out to you on the 11th). We heard from you on January 21st, 2011 (ten days later) informing us that you wanted to cancel your upcoming surgery for January 31st, 2011. This left us in a tight spot to try to rebook another patient with such a short notice at this stage.

 

You mentioned that you planned on doing the procedure at a later date. Your decision to do it right now so it fits in with a work trip to the US was too hasty etc. This is why we decided (contrary to our policy) to return 50 percent of the deposit back to apply for your second surgery. We also went out of our way and asked the patient who was previously booked on January 31st to move his booked date to accommodate your procedure. He reluctantly moved after we offered him a graft incentive, at our own cost.

 

Although our post op instructions are guidelines that are more strict than others, (we have experience from some patients that have taken too much liberty and aggression handling the recipient sites, against our advice). We do go over the instructions verbally and suggest many ways to speed up the healing and the crusting phase, we do this on patient by patient basis.

[DavidEur]

Adrian, if you'd just stuck to the post above I would have been fine retracting my comments.

 

But your private threat of legal action changed my mind. Do your lawyers seriously think my post stating that I believe it was unethical to keep my deposit would win you a libel case in Norway? Your lawyers are clearly 100% clueless about the chances of winning a defamation of character lawsuit outside of North America. Unless of course they apply for extradition to Canada? Good luck with that one. Fortunately I live in a country where the individual can't be bullied by petty threats of legal action.

 

 

But what I will do is this. I like Bill Falceros, the guy that runs this site. He seems like a very fair and decent guy. If he feels my post is out of line, then I'll respectfully remove it for him.

 

Otherwise, bring on your lawyers. At least I'll have the pleasure of knowing that my deposit disappeared in legal fees and not to your clinic.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

David

Edited February 14, 2011 by DavidEur

[eddiemunster]

Adrian, is this true? Did RHI's lawyers really threaten legal action against DavidEur because of his post? If so, that is very disappointing in my opinion. Private threats of lawsuit against posters is something I associate with the Armani clinic, not an "elite" coalition doctor like Rahal. That kind of activity (if true) does far more damage to your clinic's reputation than DavidEur's post.

[baldingbro]

I agree that this threatening episode might have caused far more damage than the actual post. Infact the actual post causes zero damage in my opinion.

[hairthere]

Sounds like the clinic did everything they could to accommodate this patient and had every right to keep the deposit. At the same time I think threatening legal action for the post is way over the top.

[Sparky]

Yeah although I think Dr Rahal is a great HT surgeon, if this is true about legal threats in private emails, I'd group him together with Armani, sorry.

[gmonasco]

But to call Dr Rahal unethical is out of line and since this is a public forum we do take great offense and respectfully ask you to withdraw the comment.

 

Eh? He said "I think it's unethical. Am I wrong here?" and solicited opinions about whether or not he was being objective. It's hard to imagine how he could have approached the subject in any less accusatory a fashion.

[Bill - Seemiller]

David,

 

As we discussed privately, clinics require deposits to reserve the day for their patient. When patients cancel, especially last minute, clinics lose a lot of money. To compensate, some clinics will try to fill the spot last minute at a highly discounted rate. While I understand how frustrating it can be, keeping the deposit is the clinic's right. There's nothing unethical about this, especially since their policies regarding how they handle deposits are clearly defined on their website.

 

I will be contacting Dr. Rahal today in order to discuss this situation more fully, including your private correspondence with Adrian. In the meantime, your claim that Adrian sent you a legal threat privately is quite bold. Thus, I ask that you send me a private copy of his message/email either via private message or to my email address at help@hairtransplantnetwork.com. I will be discussing this with Dr. Rahal's clinic as well.

 

All the above aside, I do encourage you only to book a procedure when you have the time and are truly ready for it. Postoperative care is at least a little different with every surgeon and all surgical details, including pre-op and post-op care should be discussed with the physician you select prior to booking the procedure.

 

All the best in getting the head of hair you want,

 

Bill

[DavidEur]

Thank you for your thoughts Bill.

 

I agree 100% that pre-op and post-op care should be discussed with the physician you select prior to booking the procedure.

 

I could elaborate, but the discussion regarding ethics and the provision of sufficient information to the patient by the physician has become a side-show, and the main interest here now seems to be the legal aspect.

 

Since the validity of my claim regarding a legal threat sent to my private email address is being called into question, and in the interests of transparency, I'd like to ask Adrian if it's true: Have you or have you not sent me a mail asking me to remove my comments and that you've discussed the matter with your lawyers who have determined this is an actionable offence?

 

Yes or no?

Edited February 15, 2011 by DavidEur

[Bill - Seemiller]

David,

 

I didn't ask you to publicly challenge or call out Adrian. I gave you a simple request to email me with a copy of the private message and/or email that he sent you. I expect you to cooperate with this request especially since you claim that you're interested in transparency. Please send this to me before your next post on this topic.

 

Bill

[DavidEur]

Sincere apolgies. The mail has been sent.

[gattaca]

Thank you for your thoughts Bill.

 

I agree 100% that pre-op and post-op care should be discussed with the physician you select prior to booking the procedure.

 

I could elaborate, but the discussion regarding ethics and the provision of sufficient information to the patient by the physician has become a side-show, and the main interest here now seems to be the legal aspect.

 

Since the validity of my claim regarding a legal threat sent to my private email address is being called into question, and in the interests of transparency, I'd like to ask Adrian if it's true: Have you or have you not sent me a mail asking me to remove my comments and that you've discussed the matter with your lawyers who have determined this is an actionable offence?

 

Yes or no?

 

David

 

I think i read your struggles with the previous doctor and im really sorry the crap you had to go thru. I know when i got my hair transplant and for the record mine was with dr. rahal i went thru a period where i also thought was this worth it? Boy when the pimples come in and your hair looks thinner then ever the first few months you question ahh man " am i the unlucky one"

 

but what i did was read up as much as i could , and realized a lot of it was normal and i just had to be patient. and GUESS WHAT! my 3 month mark is coming up and i see little tiny hairs ALL over the place.. its so exciting watching these little new hairs grow. AND since my hair has grown out a bit my scar has become completely unnoticeable.

 

I know with your experience with the Uk doctor? you feel a lot of frustration and anger. Maybe booking on short notice was a bit hasty and certainly anyone who went thru what you did feels a bit or a lot bit disappointed,. with the WHOLE HT experience.

 

i think certainly asking for your money back or bringing it up is something you have every right to do. BUT please consider your post title. i dont mean your post content but your title. Your questioning Dr. Rahals ethics RIGHT off the bat in the title. Many people might not even read the post you wrote might not have an idea what the details are.. but see the words Dr. Rahals name money and ethics and automatically people will start thinking bad things.

 

i certainly dont think Dr. Rahal has any intention of suing you and any patient iv talked to and including me always has great things to say abotu Dr. Rahal. and not just his personality but his work as well. I ask that cooler heads previal.. stop the rush to judgement and see what kind of comprise you guys can come to.

 

Also David please do take into consideration how difficult it is for a surgeon to book things on short notice... pay the techs ... not take any business that day to accomdate the person having surgery and then have that person cancel. I think you would agree that lots of places have cancellation fees. Especialy cosmetic surgery type of clinics. instead of rush to blame. I think it would be prudent to find a good solution so that everone is happy.

[gattaca]

""But in this instance I feel they've acted unethically ""

 

David

 

in your first post you accuse dr. rahal of acting unethically. Remember david, that post was long before Adrian or anyone mentioned any type of legal action. As it was your first post you start off questioning a mans character.

 

I have a lot of sympthaty for you because going thru an HT is no easy thing. Money or healing wise. it takes time and you do go thru some rough patches. The fact that you already had a bad experience with one doctor i think really has left a sour taste in your mouth. I dont blame you for being cauatious.

 

but please consider, that doctors are humans too. cosmetic surgeons reputation is very important and doctors spend a lot of time and effort and resources to have a great reputation online by doing the best they can. I think we can all admit Dr. Rahal routinely does good work. When you start off the bat in your title then in your post accusing someone of basically being a lie and a cheat. you have to remember that person can become defense and sensitive. Esp if they arent those things as i think a lot of poeple know Dr. Rahal isnt.

 

And i think thats where the comment about the legal action took place which honestly doesnt serve anyone well. i wish a good solution can come out of this and i truely wish for you to have a great set of hair!