A result as close as possible to nature - who can give it to me?

[EpilepticSceptic]

IMO to get what you say you are looking for with the hairline design you drew you will need 5000+ grafts!

 

Post some better pics so we can know exactly where you are at. Be sure to take your hand and pull the hair back so we can see the entire frontal area all the way back to the bridge.

 

I don't think there is much of a chance that the indoor shots made your hairloss look worse than it is. It's usually the opposite 99.9% of the time.

 

I hope I am wrong, but I think you are one of many (including myself 5 years ago) who thinks his hairloss state is better off than it really is because you are used to looking at yourself in the mirror. I thought I was a NW 2.5 years ago when I first visited the HLH forum. Once I took overhead shots in bright light the vets on the forum shot me down quickly and brought me to reality. I thought I'd only need 2000 grafts to look like George Clooney and that turned into 4500.

 

You said you've seen lush, dense, natural hairlines but has that only been in pictures and videos on HT forums ? If so, then you REALLY need to see some patients in person! If you are talking about Armani hairlines then you might as well dump those thoughts in the trash because for every 1 knockout result from him there are likely 50 that failed and whose posts get deleted.

 

Another thing about seeing patients in person (with YOUR hair characteristics!!) is that you might very well decide to not get a HT at all. I say this because you claim you have "coarse" hair shafts but are looking for a result as close to nature as possible. I have seen 4 different patients (one with blondish hair like yours) who had coarse hair and it did not look natural. As a matter of fact, in the more revealing everyday light situations these patients admitted that they get alot of funny stares. All the patients I've seen with finer hair shafts had completely undetectable results, even to my educated eye.

 

HT is alot more complicated than you might like to think, even with today's remarkable advancements. Seeing patients in person (in daylight) is the best education you can possibly get. It doesn't matter that you've researched for years on HT forums; IMO that's only about 25% of the overall research a virgin head prospective patient should be doing before making a decision.

Edited August 24, 2010 by EpilepticSceptic

[Surfarosa]

Something's not right bro. 3000 grafts to the hairline, even singles, would be way thicker than what you have now. Who did your surgery?

 

RCWest - I have super fine hair. My density is comparable to my safe zones - I just have really, really fine hair. My work has been looked at by 2 other coalition doctors who agree the work is great given my fine hair. The plus side is that it looks natural......

[CopaSurfer]

Hello EpSc,

 

I think it's better to post other pics first because it will facilitate our discussion. However, I'm still wondering where I should put 5,000 grafts into an area of 35 cm2 or 40 cm2 at the most?!

 

I have been examining my hair very thoroughly over all those years, so I cannot imagine to be so far away from the reality I'm facing every single day.

 

However, I really value your experience and appreciate that you are trying to raise my awareness of some very important aspects and limitations. I might be wrong with my observations, and we'll know better as soon as I have good quality photos which I'm going to present to a very experienced hair consultant whom I have met in that German forum and who has already helped lots of users there in their preparation for HT surgery.

 

Also, I might have the chance to meet a guy who has got his HT from Dr. Keser through my barber/hair stylist.

 

By the way, I never said that I had "coarse hair" - it's only that several people told me I had thicker hair than average. I think that it is a bit premature to draw any conclusions regarding the possible effects of that observation on the outcome of my HT. Did I get it wrong that, at first, you considered your observation of my having "medium to medium fine, blondish hair" a possible disadvantage? I would say that thicker hair than average is good for coverage and perceived density, as long as it is not extremely thick/coarse. Your first statement regarding this issue seemed to point into the same direction. "Blondish" hair doesn't seem to be any disadvantage, anyway.

Edited August 24, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[Surfarosa]

I fully agree with EpSc - photo's do not show anything beyond an impression of what is happening. I could show you picture of my hairline that makes it look like a brick wall. You have to move the hair and look at HTs with a naked eye to really understand what you are dealing with. Also, wetting the hair really helps.

[CopaSurfer]

OK, Surfarosa, I'm just asking myself why I haven't seen the same photo results from some clinics (that market themselves quite aggressively) as I have seen from others? And I'm talking about results where the hairline was shown very closely and under strong light and also wet in some cases!

 

I believe that if other clinics had such results, they would make sure that they are put out in the air.

 

Don't get me wrong: I understand the need to meet HT patients in person. But in the end, you will at best meet a very small fraction of all people who got their HT from a certain clinic. So, you will have to rely on other means of documentation as well - especially the experiences shared by other patients, online.

[EpilepticSceptic]

Copa,

 

The categories for hair shaft diameter are as follows: ultra fine, fine, medium fine, medium, medium coarse, and coarse.

 

Here is a link to a great explanation of this: (promotional link removed)

 

There's alot of other valuable info. in this paper he wrote as well.

 

I think the best case scenario is still is to be somewhere in the middle for "natural" results. This means medium hair shafts and limited loss/area to cover. Until you have had a qualified doc view your hair in person then you cannot know for sure your hair shaft diameter classification.

 

To get the most natural results from HT is a balancing act; the hair density of the sides and back in the non-MPB area should match the transplanted areas. Otherwise something will look "off".

 

 

 

Hello EpSc,

 

I think it's better to post other pics first because it will facilitate our discussion. However, I'm still wondering where I should put 5,000 grafts into an area of 35 cm2 or 40 cm2 at the most?!

 

I have been examining my hair very thoroughly over all those years, so I cannot imagine to be so far away from the reality I'm facing every single day.

 

However, I really value your experience and appreciate that you are trying to raise my awareness of some very important aspects and limitations. I might be wrong with my observations, and we'll know better as soon as I have good quality photos which I'm going to present to a very experienced hair consultant whom I have met in that German forum and who has already helped lots of users there in their preparation for HT surgery.

 

Also, I might have the chance to meet a guy who has got his HT from Dr. Keser through my barber/hair stylist.

 

By the way, I never said that I had "coarse hair" - it's only that several people told me I had thicker hair than average. I think that it is a bit premature to draw any conclusions regarding the possible effects of that observation on the outcome of my HT. Did I get it wrong that, at first, you considered your observation of my having "medium to medium fine, blondish hair" a possible disadvantage? I would say that thicker hair than average is good for coverage and perceived density, as long as it is not extremely thick/coarse. Your first statement regarding this issue seemed to point into the same direction. "Blondish" hair doesn't seem to be any disadvantage, anyway.

Edited August 24, 2010 by EpilepticSceptic

[Surfarosa]

The non MPB area comparison is so key as it gives you the baseline. It's the only real comparison you can make as it's comparing you to you vs. you to a picture of you in different conditions, or worse, you to another dude online via a picture analysis!! What's interesting is that if you have a super dense non-MPB area and a naturally low hairline (all sounds great right?), then you are potentially up for a harder task.

 

Also, remember that the removal of donor reduces the density of the non MPB area thus helping the convergence of transplanted areas to the non-MPB areas. I had scalp analysis today with the microscopic camera which was really cool. My non-MPB area is in the 80s and my transplanted area in the high 70s (I was pleased with that). Only when you use the microscopic camera and take pictures with it to count and compare can you do this real analysis.

 

A hairstylist friend of mine looked up close with a comb and water etc and concluded that my back and sides were less dense than the transplanted zones. Camera said = "wrong!" !

 

I thought my hairline was not as dense on both sides = wrong! Just different hair direction on one side.

 

Just proves that even the trained eye can be deceived by hair length, growth direction, light etc etc .... I could have stayed and played with that dam camera all day ! Dam you OCD

[mattj]

CopaSurfer, if the area is 35-40cm2 (and I am hopeless at judging area so I'll take your word for it) then 2500 should give 60-70grafts per cm2. We're in dense territory here, but I suspect that the best HTs you've seen (best as far as density goes) have been cases planted at a somewhat higher density which have had good yield.

 

When you calculated the area, how did you do it and what region did you cover? Looking at your photos it seems that the entire frontal area is in the process of thinning. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here - I can see lots of scalp showing through going back quite far. I can't imagine dropping the hairline so low and making it so dense without adding density here.

[CopaSurfer]

Thanks @matt!

 

My calculation of 35-40 sqcm already included the area on the left side behind the current "hairline" that has thinned out considerably. From the middle to the right temple, there is still good density behind the existing hairline, apart from a small spot of maybe 2-3 sqcm in the middle, where it is also noticeably thinner. I have to add that the frontal hairs in the middle have been cut very short in order to even out the look when I put the hair forward. So, that may be a reason why it looks thinner there than it is. I think it would be best to leave that area behind the hairline from the middle to the right temple just as it is and put the new hairline with maximum density in front of it. If a higher density than 60-70 grafts per sqcm is needed, that might lead us to a total of about 3,000 grafts. But I have no idea where I should put 5000+ grafts?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Surfarosa,

 

Just so you know, you can add as many photos into a single post as you want using the "Manage Attachments" button. After you are finished uploading the first one, simply select the next photo and click upload. Repeat the process as many times as you'd like and this will attach all of the images to your post.

 

I agree with what the others have said...your hair looks terrific and I would have never guessed you had a hair transplant.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Surfarosa]

Sometimes when you are trying to prove a point you do something that you instantly regret (like taking these pictures).

 

My goal was to find the harshest, most unflattering conditions possible to show brother CopaSurfa what he might expect from bringing his hairline forward. Most people have commented on how natural my results are (in conjunction with comments about see thru-ness and thinness). These pictures are the most brutal I can take - it took some experimentation to get this level of unflattering contrast. I really hope the naked eye sees a better version than this!! I think it does......

 

I have never seen my hairline appear like this & it was quite disturbing to me. I kinda wish I did not have these images in my mind. But I am committed to sharing with this community and that means the absolute truth which in terms of photo analysis I think means to include the absolute worst too.

 

What do you guys think? I'm thinking of buzzing to a #4 for a break from styling - does anyone think that would not look natural ?

 

A very bummed out SurfaRosa

[Surfarosa]

This pics shows a hairline close up with a flash. If we could get results that looked as good as they do with a flash it would be awesome!

 

I wonder what the naked eye really sees? I guess it too depends on the lighting. I'd like to think it does not just see the harshest versions we can create.

[Surfarosa]

And here is the non MPB area I referred to. This shows that my non MPB area is really quite fine too. As EpSkeptic highlighted it's the balance between the 2 zones (transplanted zone & non-MPB zone) that is a critical factor in a natural result. This pic cheers me up as it shows that I can make any area on my head look thinning even if it is not. My transplanted zones are very, very close to my transplanted zones. As I said - I have even seen this under the only real view - the microscopic camera.

 

Dr. Feller - I would be very interested in your comments.

[EpilepticSceptic]

Surfarosa,

 

My impression from looking at those pics is that you have never spent even 30 seconds of your life in the REAL MPB PIT !!! I say this because if you are insecure and disturbed by the way those pictures look then you could NEVER, EVER have possibly suffered the level of despair and humiliation in public that comes with a shattered, vanished hairline !!!

 

Let's pray that you never have to really feel that feeling; it seems that you are the type that would not be able to deal with it emotionally.

 

It makes me think of a girl with a body like 99.9% as good as a playboy bunny, but she won't leave the house and is in a state of suicidal manic depression because she is 5.5 lbs. heavier than she was 2 months ago.

 

Jesus man, your hair looks frickin FANTASTIC !! What more do you want ? YOU DO NOT LOOK LIKE A BALDING GUY !!!!!!!!

 

If my end result is as good as yours you will see me doing back flips flying thru the air over the moon !!!

 

Sheeesh !

[Surfarosa]

Dude - thanks for the kick up the ass, I really do dig your candor. I just was surprised by the difference once I followed the instructions to take picture outside without a flash. A point you have made relentlessly.

 

I like how may hair looks Epileptic!! I would never style my hair brushed back - it falls forward naturally. I have never worn my hair back. I was simply trying to add to this thread with real examples of what CopaSurfer is trying to achieve. Sticking a camera up close to any part of us is never a great look dude. In the name of progressing this thread, I gave myself a little shock - that's all ! I'm still super happy with my results as people don't tend to stick their face in mine to look at my roof ! My HTs have given me years back.

 

I really hope you get the results you are looking for - I'm sure you will. I'm sending good vibes your way. Sorry if I offended or sounded hair spoiled brother. I'll try to stop being a girl ....

 

Good stuff - made me smile ear to ear .....

[Surfarosa]

I do hope my contributions are welcome. At least I'm sticking pictures up for people to use / analyze. What I think of them is not even that important but pictures (at least ones taken in the right conditions) beat options 100 to 1 in my view.

 

Just trying to help the cause my brothers. I'm certainly not putting pictures of myself online for fun.

[EpilepticSceptic]

Dude,

 

Your contributions are very welcome ! They actually make me very happy because they show that a guy with super fine hair caliber can also acheive outstanding looking results !

 

I think your hair actually looks quite good brushed back. I don't mind in the least that it is not a super-thick "wall of hair". Actually, i think that if it was it might not look nearly as natural. Remember that the title of this thread was "who can give me a result as CLOSE TO NATURE as possible ?" It did not say "who can give me the densest, thickest results?"

 

Your hair brushed back kind of reminds me of Spex who has (IMO) one of the most natural looking HTs a person could possibly ask for.

 

My hair caliber is medium fine, so I think I will have a look very similar to yours when all is said and done.

Edited August 29, 2010 by EpilepticSceptic

[CopaSurfer]

Remember that the title of this thread was "who can give me a result as CLOSE TO NATURE as possible ?" It did not say "who can give me the densest, thickest results?"

 

Hi EpilepticSceptic, in my case, "as close to nature as possible" equals "the densest, thickest results"!

 

By the way, I've taken some better photos and already started to send them to the top surgeons on my list.

 

I'm going to post them here soon and tell you how the consultations go. Thank you once again for your feedback!

[CopaSurfer]

Hi again,

 

just wanted to post some better photos.

 

I have already sent them to the favorite surgeons on my list and am getting to close to making a fincal decision on the doctor of my choice.

 

By the way, I have noticed with the help of some older photos, that my hairline has actually not receded more than 0.1 - 0.2 cm in the middle.

 

So, I'm not going to put it further down there than just that, while restoring it in the temple area as well as filling in the thinning areas.

 

The graft estimates I have received from the docs on the basis of my goal (restoration of hairline at its original position with maximum density) has been consistently at or slightly below 3,000 grafts - just as some users had estimated here, too.

 

I'm only waiting for a final conversation with Dr. Keser's manager who has been extremely helpful, but has not yet responded to an e-mail I sent him last Thursday. As soon as I'll get his response and have the chance to clarify some final questions with him, I'll be ready to take my decision and am going to open a new thread in the patient results sections with all the details of the procedure!

 

I intend to post regular updates there, because I'd never have come to this point without the help of so many others who shared their stories and experiences and have given me their valuable advice!

 

Thanks to all!

CS

Edited September 15, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[Tom60]

I am also contemplating HT. Keep us updated on what you choose to do.

[EpilepticSceptic]

Copasurfer,

 

Well, these photos are much better than your others. It would be even better if you had taken some top-down shots as well, but these will suffice.

 

As I suspected before your loss goes back pretty far into the nether regions of the front third. This can be seen really well from the right angle.

 

The hairline you drew in an earlier post is too aggressive IMO, unless you plan on exhausting 90% of your lifetime graft supply in pursuit of it. You must understand that any HT doc worth his salt is going to shave down your entire front third and address all of the thinning areas. He's not just going to listen to you and give you what you want based on your own false interpretaion of your extent of loss; in your case only a 2 bit hack would just plant grafts in the front where you drew the hairline.

 

I still stand by my assessment of 5000 grafts to get the hairline that you drew and the density that you say you are seeking. Measure the entire front third back from where you drew the hairline you want and then you will come up with a different measurement. Yes, not all of that area will be addressed but a good perecentage of it will. A great HT doc is going to address all of the thinning areas and fill it in with grafts so that there is a perfect blend from front to back. Anything short of this will look odd and unnatural.

 

You biggest advantage I see is your very low scalp to hair contrast ratio. I think your hairloss is actually a good bit worse than you think, but because of your excellent contrast ratio it is much less discernable.

 

Considering what you are after (and also that you need to manage your total lifetime supply of grafts wisely), if I were in your shoes FUE would be my last option and not the first. I'd only consider FUE once all of my strip supply was completely exhausted. MPB is progressive and you are only 31; by age 51 you might only have 1/2 of the hair you have now, especially if you are not taking finasteride daily.

 

You said you have no family history of beyond NW3 but you just cannot bank on that. I have a good friend who is now a NW5+ at age 41 and his hair looked similar to yours at age 30. He also can find no males on either side of his family who had anything beyond a NW3. Look around on the boards and you'll find plenty of other guys who are in the same boat.

 

Bottom line is: you need alot of grafts, MPB is progressive, you want something dense and lush, and 3000 FUE grafts will devirginize your donor area and result in significantly less total overall grafts available. The greatest thing about forums like this is that in 1, 2, or 3 years time from now you can look back and see the advice that was given to you and discern who was right and who was wrong!

 

Good luck whatever you decide.

[CopaSurfer]

Hi EpilepticSceptic,

 

it's only now that I have the time to respond to your post. Thank you so much for sharing your experience - I took everything you wrote into account when I was considering different options and surgeons over the last months.

 

Finally, I have decided to have my HT with Dr. Keser in Turkey. I made an appointment for the last week of February (as Dr. Keser only does 600-800 grafts per day, and he does all of them himself - just as I prefer it - it'll take a week to get everything done), but am at the top of a waiting list for an earlier appointment, should the opportunity arise.

 

I did indeed draw the hairline too deep and actually deeper than it had ever been.

 

After a thorough online evaluation the estimate is that I'll need close to 3,000 grafts (not more) to restore my hairline at its original position, with maximum density, so that I can style it upwards again without any "see through" appearance and as close as possible to my original looks, which is exactly what I want and, according to Dr. Keser and two independent experts who know Dr. Keser's (and many other surgeons') work and whom I talked to, CAN be done!

 

I still have to send some better pics of my donor area to Dr. Keser, as I had my hair cut very short and, due to a not-so-skilled barber, uneven some time ago. He just wants to check if I have at least average donor quality. From what I'm seeing and have been told by various people who work with hair on a daily basis, my donor area is actually pretty dense. So, I'm very optimistic that we can get exactly what is needed.

 

A final word about my personal (!) philosophy, which many people won't agree with, of course. I intend to give absolute priority to my hairline, which I want to restore and keep at its original position with maximum density. Since I'm the "Northern European" type of guy, my hairline has never been extremely low, and it'll still look good and natural when I'm older. I prefer to have a hairline that is as close to its original appearance as possible, and should my hairloss progress significantly, a (possibly considerably) thinner crown area. I know from my previous experience that Minox will help me to keep the hair I still have for a significant period of time, so that there is a realistic chance to live my 30s with the looks and style I would have liked to have during my 20s (As soon as my hairline had started receding and thinning, I combed my hair forward to hide the hair loss, and it really destroyed my looks). From my perspective, that's worth it, and I'm prepared to tackle any further loss and take the necessary steps to make the crown look as decent as possible. But what matters most to me is the appearance I have when people look directly at my face.

 

Thank you once again for your advice - I'll be posting updates on my HT details and progress towards my desired looks regularly!

Edited November 18, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[wb280]

Hi surfer, why will many people not agree? I mean, i understand your point and you made a decision after your own risk assessment. As long as u understand the potential downfall, i support your rationale. In fact, i always feel hairline is of utmost importance. The crown could always be hidden with some concealers IMHO.

 

Anyway all the best and update us on your progress!

[Sparky]

 

3k would be about here I think.

 

I haven't lowered your hairline at all in this pic, I could lower it slightly if you want?

[HT Surg]

Sascha, you will never be happy unless you change your view of the procedure...this is a surgical procedure to improve your hair line and it will not be a magic wand treatment. I have no doubt that you will get a great result but i dont think you will still like it.

They teach you in training to avoid treatment patients who present with such strict goals..if alot of good surgeons turn you down, dont make you feel confident in them....etc...etc...that's probably why