A result as close as possible to nature - who can give it to me?

[Surfarosa]

Your hair color is also very very favorable. I have fine dark hair.

[wb280]

copasurfer, why would u stop minox if its working for u? Do get back on it

[CopaSurfer]

copasurfer, why would u stop minox if its working for u? Do get back on it

 

Well, you know, if something works very well for you and you notice that your hair loss is advancing very slowly anyway, you may sometimes lose your discipline. :rolleyes: I'm going to re-start immediately after my HT (this fall) - they recommend to stop using it about 2 months before the procedure, so it wouldn't make sense to start right now.

Edited August 22, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[CopaSurfer]

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience, @Surfarosa. It sounds like you have had your own difficult journey and, fortunately, are here trying to help someone like me not to make certain mistakes.

 

My guess of 2000 grafts was the result of a measurement I did of the area that has to be covered (according to my calculation about 35 sqcm) and an average densitiy of about 60 grafts per sqcm. But I'm going to consult with the top docs on my list to see what they suggest - and as you underscored: I'm going to focus on my desired result!

 

I have been doing research for eight years now, too, and, you know, after a long process of weighing different arguments I have decided to have a FUE procedure. However, as I have seen some very poor results even from so-called top surgeons, I have now elaborated some criteria that I personally consider fundamental to the success of my procedure.

 

I want a surgeon who does, at least for the most part, every step of the procedure himself. That is only possible - due to the mostly ignored fact of human fatigue and its effects even on the most skilled and experienced surgeon - for someone who doesn't transplant more than 600-800 grafts per day. In my opinion and the opinion of some experienced guys I've talked to, this is also crucial to minimize the trauma especially in FUE procedures (where the trauma for the follicles is per se much higher) and risk of lower yield.

 

So, I'm narrowing down my list to the surgeons who meet these criteria and whose results in hairline density and design are in accordance with my goals.

 

I'll keep you updated, my hair buddy! We're all hair buddies here!

 

Thank you also for the advice regarding Minox - I only applied it once per day, too, when I used it last time, and it was definitely enough for me!

 

And let us know how you feel about your situation! Do you have any recent photos?

Edited August 22, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[Surfarosa]

I will post some pics but need to get some taken without my face showing. What kind of shots would you like to see ? Is it better with flash or without? I usually wear my hair forward so would really need to brush it back to show the hairline.

[CopaSurfer]

I don't have much experience with taking this kind of pics either. Also wear my hair forward normally to hide the problem zone (see first photo). Unfortunately, I had to use flash (which is not ideal), but in this case, it didn't change the outcome. By the way, you can take normal face pics and then use Photoshop or, as I do, IrfanView to zoom into and cut out the area you want to post here.

Edited August 23, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[CopaSurfer]

By the way, it would be really great to get some more feedback on my photos and my goals as well as who YOU (I mean everyone who reads this, especially the more experienced forum members) think would give me the best possible result and why. :confused:

Edited August 23, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[EpilepticSceptic]

By the way, it would be really great to get some more feedback on my photos and my goals as well as who YOU (I mean everyone who reads this, especially the more experienced forum members) think would give me the best possible result and why. :confused:

 

My 2 cents:

 

First of all, from an evaluation perspective, your photos are terrible and do little to reveal the true extent of your MPB. If you sent these to a doc for an online consult he/she would probably tell you to go outside and take some better ones without flash. We need to see the top of your head in bright, revealing light with the hair brushed back and no attempt to hide the thinning areas.

 

Second, from what I could gather from your photos your hairline is pretty much gone and you also have substantial thinning that goes far back into the middle. In a nutshell your MPB state is likely worse than you think and you will need more grafts than you think to get a decent result that satisfies you. Forget about family history because many guys have advanced MPB even though their dad and uncles (on mom's side) have full heads of hair.

 

Third, you are probably somewhere between a NW3/earlyNW4 right now. When you post some pics in bright outdoor light with the hair combed back then I could tell you more accurately. The indoor shots with flash are meaningless, and the ceaser style combed forward look isn't fooling anybody but yourself. Most guys on these forums think they are 1-2 Norwood levels better off than they are, it's just human nature. Look at all the blogs on this site where a guy is clearly a NW5/6 but he selects that he is a NW3 (probably a majority). I thought that I was a NW3 myself until I had a few docs look at me and was told early NW4. I could also comb the hair forward from my solid bridge to cover the loss in the front, and I am 41 years old!

 

Fourth point: IF you are indeed a NW3/early NW 4 then you will need AT LEAST 3500 grafts. Then again, you say you are expecting perfection and you want it to be as good as it was in the glory days of your 20s. These are pretty high expectations for any HT, so to get to this point you will maybe even need 4500-5000 grafts especially if your hair caliber is in the middle or lower. To me it looks like you have medium or medium fine caliber, blondish hair. Plus your hair looks to be straight with little or no wave, so you will need more grafts to compensate if this is the case.

 

5th point: IF you do indeed need 3500+ grafts and you expect something dense and close to perfection as it was pre-MPB, then you need to forget about FUE completely because IMO your chances of success are under 50% no matter who you go to. If you cannot find at least 50 successful cases from a FUE surgeon well documented online then what does that tell you ? FUE is NOT new, it's been around for 10 years now.

Edited August 23, 2010 by EpilepticSceptic

[CopaSurfer]

Hi @EpilepticSceptic,

 

thanks a lot for your honest feedback. I also had serious doubts about the quality of the photos.

 

It was not an attempt to hide anything, of course. It was just at night and I couldn't take them outside, you know. And the first pic was just to illustrate how I'm trying to hide my problem in everyday life.

 

In any case, it is very helpful that you told me to get better pics right away, because it will save me lots of time and prevent a possible back-and-forth with the doctors.

 

I don't think that my hair loss is quite as advanced as you wrote it might be, because I have, at the most, very minimal thinning in the crown where my hair is extremely short right now (in an attempt of my barber to even it all out). Also, I am always told that my hairs are quite thick.

 

But I'm just going to post better pics for you to evaluate. Thank you so much for your help!

Edited August 23, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[EpilepticSceptic]

Cool. If possible try to take them outside when the sun ahs gone behind some clouds. Definitely get some top down shots and if your camera has "close-up" mode try that out as well.

 

Remember that hair density and hair shaft caliber are 2 different things. You may have a thick look because of great density but hair shafts that are not thick. The only way to know for sure is to have an in person consult with a reputable doc.

[CopaSurfer]

OK, thanks for your advice, that's how I'm going to do it.

 

By the way, did you see that patient (who was classified a NW 2-3, but had a far more advanced hairloss than I have) and what someone made of him with just 2,000 grafts?

 

And I have seen a couple of other patients who were in a worse situation than me, but have got top-notch results from Dr. Keser:

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/156605-dr-keser-2000-grafts-fue.html

[RCWest]

Dr. Keser's results look suspiciously "too good". I'm not saying he is touching up his photos, but this patient seems to have pretty good hair diameter and probably a high density. His 2000 grafts maybe the same as yours or my 2500 grafts. You never know until you have all the information. Plus, he could have had a strong hairline grafted and left the middle thinner because notice how all his hair is pushed up towards the middle?

 

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, believe me. I've learned so much on this site and I'd rather expect needing more grafts and be prepared than to plan on 2000 and be disappointed. I agree with ES, I would do 3000-3500 and do the complete front half. You'd be VERY happy

[CopaSurfer]

Hi @RCWest, thanks for weighing in.

 

I have not set any limit - 2,000 grafts were a spontaneous guess I made on the basis of a not so exact measurement of the area that needs to be covered. I might be wrong and we have to go further behind, so I'm looking forward to getting more feedback on the new and better photos I'm going to take.

 

I have seen a good number of Dr. Keser's results, and actually I found the quality of those photos much better than most others. The same applies to the results. If I remember well, some of them also had close to 3,000 grafts, so that should not be a problem. It will just take a bit more time than with those megasessions which, in my opinion, increase the risk of low yield and poor results. If necessary, I'm prepared to stay more than a week to get the number of grafts I need.

 

But I still don't think that it's necessary. On the right side, the hair is still dense enough behind the still existing, although receding hairline. However, it has only receded about 2-3 cm in the outer right temple. On the left side, it has receded more and we might have to go about 4-5cm behind at the outside margin.

 

In the middle, the hairline has only receded about 0.75 cm and density behind is still ok there. My guess for the area to be covered was 35 sqcm. If we take an average density of 60 grafts per sqcm, I don't know where we would put a lot more than 2,000 grafts. Also taking into account that, from my previous experience, I have a good chance of even strengthening the existing hair when I use Minox again.

 

We'll just have to see what Dr. Keser and other docs I'm going to consult think about my case.

Edited August 24, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[Surfarosa]

Ok - here we go - this is the left side of a 3000 single hair graph hairline reconstruction. EpSceptic - be gentle !

 

I am 36 years old in a couple of months & have been losing my hair since I was 20. If I can get this pic up I will post more including the outside top down shots. These pics look harsh compared to the flash ones. Skeptic is right - indoor with flash does nothing for critical analysis but make you feel great !

[Surfarosa]

Her is the left side in 2003 6 months after a tiny 500 FUG procedure (I wanted to check the results before committing).

[EpilepticSceptic]

Ok - here we go - this is the left side of a 3000 single hair graph hairline reconstruction. EpSceptic - be gentle !

 

I am 36 years old in a couple of months & have been losing my hair since I was 20. If I can get this pic up I will post more including the outside top down shots. These pics look harsh compared to the flash ones. Skeptic is right - indoor with flash does nothing for critical analysis but make you feel great !

 

I would say your results are great mainly because had you not informed me I would have never guessed this was a HT. There's still some see-thru-ness at the hairline but it looks natural. To pack it too much would probably make it stand out as a HT.

 

I'll doing backflips if my final hairline turns out that soft and natural looking.

[Surfarosa]

Thanks EpSceptic - I'm going to show all the pics - including surgeries - if you would like. There must be a better place to post multiple pics. An album maybe ? I'm new to adding pics but felt its time to stop just watching & start adding to the community !

 

Bottom line HTs are always see-thru. CopaSurfa you need to understand that my friend. Photo's show nothing ! I've been there, gotten great work (verified by coalition doctors) & its still not as dense as I would like. Now you have to accept the limitations that I mentioned in other posts. I fear for you that "good as it gets" may well not be "good enough" my friend.

[Surfarosa]

A surgery shot showing the design

[CopaSurfer]

First of all, @Surfarosa, your hair looks great! Looking forward to your personal hair loss website where you can post all your photos. I'm going to put one up in the near future as well.

 

I have seen many photos and photos of different quality. At least there are some photos of really good quality and under strong light, preferably daylight (without flash), where you can clearly see the hairline in detail. I've also seen some videos who match those criteria. So, if you pick the best results out of those results, it's a good starting point, I think.

 

I still believe that the area to be covered in my case is quite limited. Mainly because I think we can put nearly everythin in front of the still existing (!) hairline, with maximum density. Even if it has thinned out a bit in the 1-2cm strip behind that hairline I have decided to leave that alone for now, as it won't be noticeable, if the hairline is dense-pacekd. I know from my previous experience that I can stabilize and even strenghten my existing hair with Minox very considerably, so my current goal is to get a perfect hairline into the area I described.

 

If those grafts are dense-packed by a surgeon who has demonstrated that this is really one of his specialties (as well as hairline design in general) - although I am still not 100% sure who this surgeon is, but I have my strong favorites - I think it's possible to get quite close to natural densitiy and looks. What I mean by this, is that I want to put my hair upwards as I used to without that see-through appearance that I have seen on so many HT photos (!). Yeah, also photos that were not of the best quality. Then there were others of top quality where the hairline was just perfectly dense, but also natural. So, obviously the specific skills of a surgeons, his experience, methodology, number of grafts per session etc. matter a lot.

 

Contrary to EpilepticSceptic's impression, I have also been told by various people (including some who work with hair on a daily basis) that the diameters of my hairs are actually above average. Apart from that, I have fair hair, which is also an advantage. So, I'm a bit more optimistic, but nevertheless very grateful for other people highlighting critical points and limitations!

Edited August 24, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[mattj]

CopaSurfer, your hairloss does look more advanced than I was expecting based on your earlier comments. I don't know how low you wish to drop the hairline, but you obviously have very high expectations for how far you want to wind back the hairloss clock. You'll need a lot of grafts to come close to achieving what you want, and even then you might not be satisfied.

 

Don't get me wrong, a transplant could give you a fantastic result, but it would be a good idea if you were ready to expect a more modest outcome. You're in your thirties, you don't need a NW1 wall to fit with your peers. You don't even need that to look genuinely great.

[Surfarosa]

CopaSurfa - My hairline is dense packed. Approx 60 FU per cm. You hair is thicker & mine is very fine. Yes it is see-thru - I think that is inevitable with any HT unless you are a NW2 with great hair characteristics. Mattj - 50-60 singles pscm is considered dense packed right ?

 

CopaSurfa - I wanted the same thing as you desire. But HTs can only go so far. Get back on the Minox - you don't have to stop it before surgery - that's bogus! Meds are you friend - see the post I did showing my crown. Surgery is not an answer on its own.

 

What we want and what we can have are not always the same. You have to accept you will look better but not 20 again IMHO ! If you shop long enough someone will tell you what you want to hear.

 

My new goal = look as good as I can whilst looking natural. Your hair is just one part of your appearance but to those of us hair obsessed it becomes everything.

 

I feel you man but you have to listen to those who have done this. No surgeon is so skilled that he can change the absolute constraints of HTs - period.

[RCWest]

Something's not right bro. 3000 grafts to the hairline, even singles, would be way thicker than what you have now. Who did your surgery?

[CopaSurfer]

CopaSurfer, your hairloss does look more advanced than I was expecting based on your earlier comments.

 

Hi Matt, thanks for sharing your thoughts. As I stated earlier, my hairline has receded not even 0.75 cm in the middle. The right temple has receded about 2-3 cm and the left temple about 3-4cm at the outside margin.

 

I'm the Northern European type, so my hairline was never very low, and maybe my photos are actually making it look worse than I see it when I look in the mirror (not only inside, but also outside in full daylight) and compare it to where I come from. However, though I never had a low hairline, I used to have very dense hair also in the front that stayed upwards even without the use of gel or wax. And people used to tell me that my hair looked quite good that way.

 

So, my estimate of the area to be covered remains more or less the same that I have already stated (about 35 - 40 sqcm). But I might be totally wrong, so I definitely need to post some better pics.

 

If it is more or less the area cited above, it would definitely be possible to have a very dense result in the front even with only 2,000-2,500 grafts, and that's all I am aiming for, because I know that I can maintain and considerably strengthen the existing hair by using Minox again.

 

@Surfarosa: I have also seen some very dense and also natural hairlines without "see-through look" from patients whose hair status had been much worse, so I still believe that should be possible in my case, too - if it is done the right way by the right surgeon. I say it very clearly - I'm not going to aim for anything less and am willing to take the grafts needed for such a result in the front, even if it means one day having only thin hair in the crown (In the end, that's my personal "philosophy" and decision).

Edited August 24, 2010 by CopaSurfer

[CopaSurfer]

I have drawn some lines to give you an idea of where my hairline used to be. I assume that due to the angle of the photos the situation may look even more terrible than it is... :rolleyes:

[CopaSurfer]

To pack it too much would probably make it stand out as a HT.

 

I have seen some very dense HT hairlines that also looked very natural. Actually, that's exactly what I'm looking for