Crown 1126 grafts

[NervousNelly]

Pat and Bill,

 

Thanks for remaining diplomatic and looking into things. Bill said it best that this is not what we are used to seeing from physicians doing refined work, but lets give her the benefit of the doubt that maybe she has created some unique technique to create a better illusion of density in a case such as this. Yes this statement is possibly foolishly optimistic, but I am hoping for the best.

 

It certainly is time to see some more of her work and an explanation for this because in my opinion it is a kick in the teeth to see shotty work by physicians that many of us are endorsing. I for one prefer to make referal to only those physicians that I have seen a good deal of work posted irregardless of credentials. Just my thoughts.

 

NN

[jagdish]

The similarity between my HT and this HT is the placement of grafts in stadium rows style. With experience I can say, when the hair is grown longer it can not be noticed, but when you go for a buzz cut, it looks very odd.

[jojojo1]

Hi all

 

Dear Wanthair, first i agree that it looks weird that it looks like it in patterns, but i am sure than Dr Martinick had her reasons. And i am not involved with Martinick at all.

 

The reason why i said it looks good is because i am comparing it to other HT on this forum. This patient only had about 1200 grafts and it seems to have done a lot for the number of grafts. Also it dosnt look as bloody and fleshy like other transplants.

 

Thats all i have taken into consideration. But i do agree with everyone that this is kinda odd and its the first time i have seen it.

 

Jojo

[Guest josh - b]

i posted on charlies other thread and asked questions of dr martinick but said her work seemed ok.

However,after seeing this, if this is indeed dr martinicks work then her recommendation on this site should be immediately revoked.

I say 'if' because we know certain people have it in for her so this may not be what it seems.

Lets just wait for confirmation from pat or Bill before we judge.

[balody]

josh-b,i was thinking this also,dr m had a lot of flack a month ago and we know mr joseph had many alias,s,so we should wait until she gives her side of events.

[charlieb]

^ i dont understand what you guys are on about. are you implying that im an alias off someone else?

 

josh b - this is her work so i dont have a clue what you are on about...why do you need pat or Bill to verify this is her work when im the guy that had the surgery ...you are wacko ! you havent seen yet how it will turn out...the picture you are looking at is post 1 hr the surgery, do you think you have better judgement than a doctor that is held in high regard, thousands off patients yearly...and ive read davidjosephs post, to me he had his surgery at 23 years old, 800 grafts , he truely sounds very immature and didnt post any pics to back it up..

i have research other sites and there are no bad reviews about Dr Jen..

 

im just wondering if Dr Jen has ever given her take here as i will be curious to her explanation for this technique, but to blatantly say ban her etc, from recommendations it is just silly..

 

like i told you before the reason there is a gap in between the grafts is as they grow horizontally they provide more coverage than grafts that stand up...so for 1126 grafts although it wont be as dense as 2500 grafts it will do the best job possible for what is there..

 

balody - you sound like this work on me is horrible and it needs to give an explanation, to her that must sound like an utter insult and also to me....i myself know how to judge character and believe she did a good job, if it wasnt the best, she by no means ''butchered'' me by any means..it may be lacking in density but then again it may be ok, only the end results can tell...

[the B spot]

just spotted this thread.

 

Bill-- I believe 18,19 is referring to the gauge size of needles?

 

Anyway, I am interested in the response to this thread-- I am having trouble seeing any benefit to the patient as a result of this methodology.

 

Thanks Pat/Bill for your inquiry.

 

Take Care,

Jason

[Fallenstar]

i think most people on this thread have been studying before and after work from many surgeons..i am one of them, been studying for 10 yrs, and i had my HT on nov1st at Farjo's.

Although i am not a medical dr. etc, i would NEVER be happy with this design of HT...sorry but when in comes to my head/scalp..i would ask exact details to the plan and reasons why such method from the Doc concerned!!!!

but like someone someone else said...i pray u r happy with this at the end..but based on this i would never go with whoever did work.

[jagdish]

charlieb,

I am surprised to see your confidence on your end result. How do you know that it is going to be great. I know how a corn row grafting looks after 6 months post-op. Frontal look may be ok, but the side look(Left or Right) clearly shows that you are just imported from another planet.

[nobuzz4me]

$9K for this work is a shame, consider traveling to US/Canada next round. Make a vacation of it with the $ saved and get better work.

[Bill - Seemiller]

charlie,

 

Just so you understand, there are a few things going on here which is why you may be confused.

 

Nobody is questioning you or your surgery - I apologize if you are getting that impression.

 

First, we are here for you to offer you support, encouragment, and our honesty. I know honesty can sometimes be difficult especially when it appears negative. Please understand that nobody is scrutinizing you - but questioning Dr. Martinick's work overall. This is because the immediately post op photos that people are used to seeing look a lot different than this which includes larger sessions, densely packed, more scattered rather than in patterns. This brings cause for concern and these concerns are being expressed freely. Please understand that as these concerns are being expressed, it is not to insult you, but rather the help you.

 

Secondly, people are are concerned (and rightfully so), because Dr. Martinick is recommended on our network. Because we only recommend hair restoration surgeons on our network that perform state of the art hair transplantation, we are very careful who we select and allow to be continually recommended. Patient feedback (and pictures) are extremely important to us to help us determine whether or not a hair transplant surgeon is still doing quality work. The pictures we have seen from her work on you have caused us some concern and we are looking more into it. Pat has already sent an email to Dr. Martinick asking her to publicly address this thread. We are waiting for her response.

 

Please don't regret your decision of posting your experience and photos online. We are in your corner and hope the best for you.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[hairbank]

I dont' have anything to add that has not already been said.

 

charlieb - realize that, as Bill mentioned, we all wish you the best and hope this turns out great. At the same time, there is concern regarding any HT Doc recommended by the site that produces what could be considered questionable work.

 

I had crown work done by Dr. Wong, who personally I consider to be the best crown Doc in the business, and it looked nothing like this. I understand that the Doc may be going for a layering effect, and, who knows, maybe it will be better than expected? 1126 grafts isn't very many for the crown though.

 

I'll be anxious to hear Dr. Martinick's response to Pat's inquiry.

[charlieb]

Guys

 

i understand where you guys are coming from, and thanks for the concern, but apart from the negatives at all can you spot anything positive, apart from having another HT ?, i hear people say it will have no cosmetic affect at all...i will have to disagree here, i think it will make a big difference...reasoning.

 

can i ask you to examine the

 

pre op photos and answer this

 

1. Considering i have had a HT before with Dr Molton @ 500 grafts but he said 1200...which i doubt, however poorly that one was done, he did leave me with those transplanted hairs in the middle, I think with these additional hairs from this surgery, when everything settles down and the hairs start growing it will blend it nicely, what do you think?

 

2. Bill/Pat can you tell me if Dr Jen has ever replied or made any post on this site ever ? if she has never i doubt she will, and this thread is cause for my concern enough to ring her personally

 

3. For Jagish i saw your corn rows and i have to say it did turn out better than it looked, im just hoping mine will also get me over the line...for several reasons diferent to yours, 1. my procedure is on the top and you were saying it would look funny from the left or right, however i have existing hairs there which will blend this in , would you agree?

 

4. If I was to have a HT in the future what would you recommend , how many grafts and roughly where and how much it would cost, my goal is just have healthy hair which i can comb up,

my frontal is all my own hair, I think i am a norwood 4a from memory...I see difficulty in doing the frontal area when there is so many existing hairs there.

 

5. Can i ask Bill and anyone which have transplanted most of the hairs if you take any meds still, technically speaking these are now all HT hairs so you wouldnt need rogiane, proscar ?

 

thanks

[gazzasgoin2]

Hey Charlieb, everyone who posted are on your side and hope you get a positive outcome. You are definately going to have increased density from this surgery. I think the only question is how natural and "stand alone" this procedure will be and it may require some refinement in a future procedure to look more natural. However, I suspect the end result will be better than the post op pics suggest, it is just a very different strategy & procedure than we are used to seeing.

 

- Its difficult to tell from your pics how many grafts you would require in a future procedure but i would guess c3000 grafts to increase density throughout would give you a good outcome. Check out the Coalition Doctors websites for prices, however i would think this would cost $10k to $12k USD.

 

- Regarding the meds, even patients with mostly transplanted hair are recommended to take propecia otherwise there is a risk that the donor area will continue to thin as you see in some older guys. Also even hairs taken from the donor "safe zone" can be predispositioned to thin in some aggressive MPB cases and the continuation of propecia will prevent this.

 

Hope that help and hang in there bud, im sure the end result will at least provide some decent coverage and additional density. Then you can think carefully about a further procedure.

[NervousNelly]

Charlieb,

 

Gazza gave you a great response. This sites primary purpose is to protect and educate the potential patient. Sometimes that goal seems lost when it starts to look like a doctor showcase, but the 2 go hand in hand actually. It sucks for us to have to give you the true skinny when you have just spent thousands of dollars and are very emotional over everything. None of us want to tell you like it is, but for your benefit and the benefit of others we can't sugar coat things too much.

 

You will have a cosmetic improvement in the fact that you will have more hair. The problem is the naturalness of this transplanted hair. That is the big concern for all of us. I expect though that with your already transplanted hair and some of your native hair things will blend OK so that you are content.

 

It appears like you don't have a lot of density in your donor area so therefore you don't need to have a lot of grafts to give you some coverage and a decent look. You likely don't have a lot of donor hair anyways to give yourself a real full look. In saying this, I still believe that you would likely want/need 2000+ more grafts in the future. This will depend ofcourse on how much native hair you maintain. Keep up with a protocol to maintain your existing hair as best as possible.

 

Currently from everything that I have seen, I personally still believe that for a guaranteed result you need to travel to the US or Canada. It will likely cost approx. $10,000.

 

I'm sorry for all this nonsense to add to your stress as you should be just enjoying things and recovering, but life moves on. You'll end up in good shape one way or the other. We all care for you here bud.

 

Take care,

 

NN

[Bill - Seemiller]

charlie,

 

2. Bill/Pat can you tell me if Dr Jen has ever replied or made any post on this site ever ? if she has never i doubt she will, and this thread is cause for my concern enough to ring her personally

 

Dr. Martinick did reply to Pat's initial inquiry. We are still discussing the matter and will be back with you shortly.

 

i hear people say it will have no cosmetic affect at all...i will have to disagree here, i think it will make a big difference...reasoning.

 

 

In my opinion, there will be a small cosmetic difference, but it will not be significant. 1200 follicular unit grafts over such a large area (no matter how they are transplanted and especially that spaced apart) will not be enough to create a huge cosmetic difference.

 

Take a look at my immediately post op photos in the crown from my third surgery (link below). You will notice that the FU grafts are placed much closer together. The cosmetic improvement is significant however, the crown is still thin as expected.

 

I still have reservations about the graft placement - but Pat and I are discussing this with Dr. Martinick - more detail to come.

 

Bill

[Guest wanthairs]

i have to say...I really cannot wait to hear what the story is behind this....

[jagdish]

Originally posted by charlieb:

 

3. For Jagish i saw your corn rows and i have to say it did turn out better than it looked, im just hoping mine will also get me over the line...for several reasons diferent to yours, 1. my procedure is on the top and you were saying it would look funny from the left or right, however i have existing hairs there which will blend this in , would you agree?

 

 

 

I have attached two of my pictures to show how it looked when I had a buzz cut. I used to grow my hair longer to hide this effect. I hope yours will turn out good.

[jagdish]

Look at the area marked in red.

[NervousNelly]

I realize that these surgeons are very busy and it is possible that Dr. Martinick is out of town or has some personal things to attend to, but her reputation is in jeapardy here and she really should be making some comments soon or have a representative from her clinic address things.

 

Pat/Bill lets face it, we all know that if she actually did this work there is likely not an explanation that is going to satisfy the masses. She either did it or she didn't and if she did, we all know the verdict. Not even OJ could get out of this one.

 

NN

[charlieb]

Guys,

 

I just had a personal phone call from Dr Jen and she has laid any concerns i may have to rest. She has said I have had an exception above average transplant and if im not happy with the results she will be the first to fix it...she also said my breakdown in hair count was 15% 1s, 20% 2s and 35% 3s and 4s , which was very good and 2000 follicles were transplanted...she went on to discuss the method she uses is not practiced by alot of doctors on this site...she uses coronal instead off sagital...this is the last post i am going to post for now, and will let the results speak for itself...she has urged me to post the results on the net once it has grown out...thanks for all concerned.

 

Dr Jen has written so many papers on new techniques and I have no doubt i am in good hands....

 

just something i googled on coronal methods...

 

Coronal (horizontal) vs. Sagittal (vertical) Incisions

Follicular units emerge from the scalp in either a bundle or in a linear array. When in a linear configuration, the orientation is generally in a coronal (horizontal) plane, allowing the follicular units to shingle and provide more coverage than if they were sagittal or random. It has been argued that during a hair transplant there is less scar contraction with a coronal incision compared to a sagittal one. This would allow follicular units to remain linear after they have been transplanted and provide the rational for using coronally angled grafting (CAG) to best approximate the way hair grows in nature. [36]

 

The main advantage of CAG is that it would provide a fuller look to the transplant compared to traditional (sagittal) incisions. Another advantage is that grafts may be positioned at a more acute angle with the surface of the scalp and there may be less tendency of the growing hair to elevate in the vertical plane. This is particularly important at the temple/sideburn area where the hair lies very flat to the scalp surface. It is also felt by some practitioners that CAG exhibits less popping and that the wounds cause less damage to the vascular bed.

 

Hair restoration doctors using sagittally angled grafts (SAG) feel that the pre-made vertical recipient sites are easier to see and that grafts are easier to place in these sites, minimizing injury to the follicular unit grafts. This may be particularly relevant in areas where there are significant amounts of hair present and the hair transplant surgeon does not have the luxury of shaving the scalp before the procedure. It has also been pointed out that coronal incisions (which cross Langer's lines) potentially cause more damage to collagen and the cutaneous vasculature, than sagittal incisions. An additional concern is that, although there is possibly more hair elevation with sagittal than coronal incisions, there is less lateral (radial) splay of hair when the former is used. Al with minimizing lift, minimizing lateral splay is also an issue of significant cosmetic importance. Finally, if one considers that many follicular units are not linear and that many linear units may indeed contract during the healing process and lose their linear orientation, CAG may offer only a theoretical advantage. [36-38]

 

At the time of this writing, there is no consensus on which method is best and if the differences are even significant for most patients, although there is a general trend towards CAG. As with many techniques used in surgical hair restoration, the advantage of one over the other may ultimately depend upon the particular patient, a particular transplant session, or the skills and preferences of a particular surgeon. A number of researchers are currently examining these issues; however, regardless of the outcome, considering the rotational orientation of follicular unit graft adds an important new dimension to follicular unit hair transplantation. (Figures 17 and 18)

[hoose]

charlieb,

 

I'm confused on the breakdown #s; the percentages do not add up to 100%; did she give you exact hair breakdown #'s or just percentages; I do not think that the "Coronal vs Sagittal Incisions" is the issue or concern here; the actual grafts' placements (symetrical rows and spaced wide apart) I feel is more of the concern.

[balody]

his right, your 30% missing.

[charlieb]

I spoke to Dr Jen for about 20 mins today just before she was due to fly out to Melbourne, i emailed her yesterday expressing my concerns.

 

We discussed the numbers of hairs in % , I cant rememebr the exact percentages but i definitely remmeber her saying 15% for 1s, 25% for 2s and 35% for 3s, so the rest must be 4s, Ill check when i go back in to get the stiches removed..

 

she also said that this is the method she uses to do the crown area for most of her patients and she has seen very good results..she has offered me if im not happy to fix it, as her reputation is at stake and she has spent a long time building up a good reputation in the business...which i believe to be true as you cannot have a good rep if you do shit work can you?

 

we talked in depth about coronal vs sagital placements and she said , not all doctors agree but studies she has done has led to her methods, she also has pictures which she will be happy to email me off similar work on the crown..but this will take about a week due to patient confidentialy, she also said the description of cornrow was incorrect and hers is in a spiralling formation, and mimics nature..., she also said this pattern will disappear once the hairs grows, either her theories are wrong or they are right...but then again she does have repeating and happy patients.

 

Also i have hairs from my previous transplant which were sagitally placed and they stand up in an unnatural way when they get long, she has fixed this and also improved my scar..she said the scar will be unnoticable once healed.

 

Personally i have a good feeling about this transplant, i think i will get the results i want...however i will remain healthily sceptical, however it is day 3 and i feel great..even in the midst of all this negativity...why ? its the gut feeling you get...and my gut says it will be good, ive examine the pictures and i think it will be ok...so please lets just wait and see the results before you all go and question a doctor which has helped many many people.

 

i will keep you guys posted with pics in due course. Please no more non constructive criticism i already know your opinions on the graft placements etc..

 

on a side note...a doctor cannot just come here and post things about patients unless given approval from the patient..ie Pat and Bill wouldnt get a response unless i explicitly approve due to patient doctor confidentialty, so doctors that actually post here without consent are breaking this rule, thats all

[Guest wanthairs]

Charles...

 

I guess the most important thing here is that you are happy and that the Dr. has said she will correct anything if it does not look right.

 

However, this thread will make all other potential clients of Dr. Jen run a mile !!