EpilepticSceptic

wb, "chanyouze" is just one of hundreds for whom Dr. A's FUE left him depleted and defeated. The Dr. A debacle was so bad that it almost ended up shutting HLH down; and since that time that forum has become a graveyard with just a few posters left. All of these failures is just proof that the technique itself is hit and miss. When you ask the shills why FUE megasessions don't work for the majority (even with a large staff of trained technicians) they just retort " it just doesn't". That's it! They cannot provide any scientific explanation and they don't even try! Somebody here should ask "chanyouze" if he's happy that he can just throw in the towel now ? For some reason I do not think his retort will be a jovial one! :eek::confused: BTW, folks here who are really worried about not being able to have a short haircut in the rear due to the strip scar should take a good look at the latest Dr. Hasson patient in the "Posted Clinic Results" section. How much shorter would anybody really need their hair than that ? Would clipping off another 2mm really make that much of a difference to the chicks ?

Megatron, Like I said in my other post, Armani has some FUE patients with incredible looking results. It really shouldn't suprise you; it's just that there have been so many failures as well. I have stated this before on this forum and others, namely that these 2 FUE surgeons are NOT incompetent quacks who just have some good and bad days. If you look for great results from them you will find them for sure. But if you look for the failures you will find WAY too many! What this tells me is that they have simply operated on a much higher number of patients than these new FUE surgeons. And what that tells me is that the technique itself is just hit and miss, and that is why I couldn't take the risk myself just to avoid the strip scar. I'm very glad I waited it out and watched all the lab rats go under the FUE knife in the last 5 years !! For those with risk taking personalities who like to gamble with their $ and donor area FUE is the ticket. You will either hit the jackpot like "feelzgood" or you will end up depleted and defeated like "chanyouze". I actually wouldn't even scratch Armani off my list IF I was to consider FUE as I don't believe they really lack any skill at performing the procedure. "feelzgood" (and many others) is proof of that !

Sometimes you just have to be downright mean to those who would seek to humiliate you for a trivial cosmetic deficiency. It can indeed be a very good feeling -- it might even get you laid.

feelzgood, Looks great. Who did your procedure and where are your pre-HT pics ?

This makes me wish my hair will turn grey faster. Naaahhh, just kidding! It truly is an amazing result! I think the grey hair is a major advantage for hiding the scalp underneath.

D, What you seem to forget about me is that I am a 5+ year HT forum veteran who has researched this subject obsessively BOTH on and off the internet; hence, my view is NOT simply the result of prejudice for one technique over the other due to a lack of an open mind. I have seen in person the results of several FUE patients from 2 different clinics that were considered to be "top notch" a long time ago, in a galaxy far away called HLH.com. I have even been flown to Greece accross the ocean and had to back out of a FREE procedure of FUE because the results I saw were utterly pathetic. That said, I would like to make you aware that back in 2005 there were many posters talking like "scar5" about FUE. Posters back then would make comments like "people just haven't caught on yet", or "the strip docs are resisting it cause it's too much work", or "in 5 years FUE will be the norm and anybody with a strip scar will curse the day they chose strip over FUE". So what did I do ? I WAITED 5 YEARS TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN! What happened ? HUNDREDS of hacked up, depleted donor patients who jumped in head first and are now repair patients! HUNDREDS of patients who got no growth and feel it was a big waste of money! And YES, from docs who were once considered to be "top 3" on several popular HT forums in 2005. And what else did I see ? The same top strip docs were putting out ALOT of successfully documented cases of great outcomes, with great yield and very difficult to locate linear scars -- DOCUMENTED on HD video, not just hype and talk! Fue is NOT new !! Dr. Woods has been doing it for almost 20 years now I believe. Some would even argue that his approach (he still uses needles) is antiquated by today's standards. Dr. Armani, contrary to popular belief around here, is NOT a totally incompetent quack IMHO. He is the doc who has actually had hundreds, maybe thousands of "lab rats" to experiment on whereas some of these new FUE docs have done mimimal work by comparison. People just assume that it must have been bad technique by those docs and that explains the plethora of poor cases they have out there; nobody seems to wonder that maybe it was just because they worked on ALOT more patients than these new FUE docs. Armani actually does have some very successful FUE cases, but the complaints seem to outweigh them to the well-researched prospective HT patient today. I am also NOT anti FUE! I think it has its' place as simply another tool in the arsenal to battle the MPB demon. To think that you must simply commit to going one way or the other shows that someone is naive and doesn't take the DEMON seriously as a worthy (and merciless!!) opponent. I have seen great strip cases get nape hair added to the hairline via FUE and the results are amazing, especially in cases where somone has coarse dark hair. It has also turned out to be great for filling in bad scars or simply areas of permanent shock loss that can occur around the strip scar. But IMO it is NOT an appropriate replacement for the volume of hair that a well executed strip surgery can give a virgin head patient today, and it is also NOT as efficient of a technique. For somone with advanced balding like Garet there is no way in hell he is going to be happy going the FUE route! He will feel like he wasted alot of money for minimal difference and ended up on the FUE treadmill of chasing more surgeries to get a halfway decent result, and all because he listened to some anonymous posters on a HT forum! I myself have a bit of anger towards some of the forum members who convinced me to wait another 5 years and see where FUE would be. I say this because I feel like they made me unnecessarily paranoid about the strip scar and denied me 5 years where I could have been happier with a great HT. I realize now that ALOT of people on forums who are anti-strip are guys who got their donor wiped out in the 1990s with antiquated procedures and have bad scars, pluggy grafts, etc. They are pro FUE now because they are like victims from the past and they have a personal vendetta against the strip procedure itself. You simply MUST know the background of anonymous posters before you can take any of their advice seriously. It may very well be that they'd prefer you not to get a great HT as a virgin head today because they have no donor left and know they can't do it themself. One thing is for sure: if FUE really had become the thing that so many posters on HLH beleived it would back in 2005, then I would DEFINITELY have gone that route myself. Who wouldn't have ? In 2005 they promised in 5 years the prices would come way down -- that never happened! In 2005 they said that these "top docs" would have the technique perfected and it would offer equal (or superior) efficiency and yield as strip -- that never happened. So if you're making comments about a guy's hair still looking "see-thru" and thin when he had a 4000+ graft strip surgery as a NW5/6, then I think you'd just be chasing a fool's gold yourself getting FUE procedures and expecting to be satisfied. You might actually find that "throwing in the towel" is not an option due to all this new hair you have up front with the thinning hair behind as the future progresses. Ya know, that fine "chick" might be spending alot more time staring at your weird looking front third than your rear; she might be thinking "something isn't quite right up there." Yikes, time for another 10K surgery ? Hmmm -- the FUE one-way treadmill !

Garet, If you ever intend on wanting to shave your head to the skin like in those scar pics you posted, then just forget about ANY type of HT -- period ! I have seen pics of numerous FUE patients shaved like that and there were white dots everywhere and others with a swiss-cheese look. The bottom line is that this is surgery and there WILL be scarring no matter how good the doc is. If you have 2500 FUE grafts extracted and shave down to that level then chances are high you WILL be able to see the dots in the back of your head! Choose your poison -- strip or FUE. Scar5, When I said my scar "will only get better from here" I meant that the redness will continue to subside and should be gone completely by 6 months. I am only 3.3 months post-op; so YES, my scar will indeed look better and be less noticable than it is now in the coming months. But even as it is now is a total non-issue to me. DanielKiwi, How is it that you can recommend FUE to Garet when you haven't even had any type of procedure yourself yet ? You mention having the option to "throw in the towel" and to me that is basically expecting failure from the start and being OK with that. Why not just throw in the towel now and save ALOT of money and potential heartache by just not getting any type of HT and accepting baldness ? What makes you think you will still have the shaving your head to the skin option after FUE surgeries of thousands of grafts ? Because you've seen a few pictures online where it seemed somebody else (who consults for a clinic) could get away with it ? Body hair, really ? You would consider that a better option than a lush, dense URFUT HT and a thin tricho strip scar ? Have you yet seen FUE patients in person who have buzzed the back of their head to skin and have 0 noticable scarring ? And why would you not choose Dr. Feller for FUE ? Do you think he is not very good at it ? Or is it perhaps because he is honest about how limited the procedure is for somebody expecting a "lush" looking HT result ? Sometimes I feel forums can actually do more harm than good for prospective HT patients. Garet, if you have not met with several patients in person then you have no business scheduling any type of HT. This is an absolutely CRUCIAL part of your research! After meeting some patients in person you might very well feel ALOT more comfortable about going thru with a strip surgery -- I know I sure did!

Garet, I think you were wise to cancel for now. From the looks of your photos on your blog you will need at least 4000 grafts to get acceptable coverage. You seem to be somewhere between a NW4/5 for all practical purposes. Forget about FUE as that will undoubtedly leave your bank account drained as well as a significant chance of failure IMO. Seek the advice of the very best strip surgeons who do megasession FUT with the trichophytic closure. Do your homework properly and by the end you'll have 2, maybe 3 names left on your list. For the record I recently had a 4496 graft megasession and my overall loss was less than yours. My scar at 3.3 months is as thin as a pencil line and my girlfriend cannot even find it; and it will only improve from here. Whomever told you that you would never be able to have a short haircut again going FUT may just be a doc who is not very good at the procedure -- unless you have very poor laxity, or a history of genetically induced hypertrophic scarring.

Dude, Your contributions are very welcome ! They actually make me very happy because they show that a guy with super fine hair caliber can also acheive outstanding looking results ! I think your hair actually looks quite good brushed back. I don't mind in the least that it is not a super-thick "wall of hair". Actually, i think that if it was it might not look nearly as natural. Remember that the title of this thread was "who can give me a result as CLOSE TO NATURE as possible ?" It did not say "who can give me the densest, thickest results?" Your hair brushed back kind of reminds me of Spex who has (IMO) one of the most natural looking HTs a person could possibly ask for. My hair caliber is medium fine, so I think I will have a look very similar to yours when all is said and done.

Surfarosa, My impression from looking at those pics is that you have never spent even 30 seconds of your life in the REAL MPB PIT !!! I say this because if you are insecure and disturbed by the way those pictures look then you could NEVER, EVER have possibly suffered the level of despair and humiliation in public that comes with a shattered, vanished hairline !!! Let's pray that you never have to really feel that feeling; it seems that you are the type that would not be able to deal with it emotionally. It makes me think of a girl with a body like 99.9% as good as a playboy bunny, but she won't leave the house and is in a state of suicidal manic depression because she is 5.5 lbs. heavier than she was 2 months ago. Jesus man, your hair looks frickin FANTASTIC !! What more do you want ? YOU DO NOT LOOK LIKE A BALDING GUY !!!!!!!! If my end result is as good as yours you will see me doing back flips flying thru the air over the moon !!! Sheeesh !

Aaron, What I really meant was that if you are 40+ -- and the people you associate with know that -- then to have some crown thinning and a non-perfect hairline is considered more "normal" in our society. So if the issue is truly undetectability, and you are the type who really doesn't want anybody to know (due to being perceived as vain, superficial, etc.), then your chances are significantly higher of being able to pull this off as a 40+ year old HT patient today. I agree that modern URFUT HTs are helping alot of 20-30 year olds as well -- mostly the ones who have already undergone severe loss and therefore can have realistic expectations. On the other hand, many of the young guys I see frontloading the hairline with mega-sessions around here I think will eventually be in a real tough spot for maintaining the "illusion" of undetectability in everyday public life. For those who head to very advanced Norwood levels down the line the chances of detectability will increase exponentially as a result of mismanagement of grafts in their youth.

j1j9j85, Hey man, i also have an "angry area" about 4 cm long (on the Left side) starting from where the end of the cut was made. I'm at 3 months and starting to see signs of hair growing in, but DEFINITELY a LONG way to go !!! Other than that everything is peachy. I trust is is just surrounding scar shockloss and will fill in. Right side is fine which seems freaky. Check out this old thread, it will make you feel better: http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/153096-scar-shock-loss-question-veterans.html I agree with Copa BTW. If my mates were the type to rip me about a HT I'd tell them all to f*ck off and see me in 8 months -- then I'd rip them a new a**hole !!!!

Dude, I read your blog and the comment "women half my age look at me in a way that they DID NOT before" was all I needed to hear to know that your HT was a ridiculous success. All I can say is if you're not happy with that then you must be out of your mind. That's about all I really care to acheive with my HT; if it's good enough for the ladies then it's good enough for me !!!

David, That's really cool man! I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, but it seems us 40+ guys are really the best HT candidates for undetectable results. I say for various reasons: 1) it is "normal" to have a little thinning and not a wall-of-hair hairline like a guy in his 20s 2) we've been in the MPB pit and paid our dues long enough that we are thrilled with a look that a younger guy might find unsatisfactory for his age group 3) the limited nature of what HTs can acheive (due to limited grafts) fits perfectly with the 40+ crowd because it might actually look unnatural to suddenly have a 15 year old kid's hairline again !!! Peeps would spot it as artificial just because your body and face looked much older!

I once saw a dingy delapidated shack in Reynosa, Mexico advertising a HT for $2 per graft. This is NOT a joke! It was right when you get over the border from McAllen, TX. I think it was also a hair salon, but it's been so long that it's hard to remember. I wish I would have taken a picture of that. The sign was pretty slick looking, but the place was truly a dingy shack. Since I've been on these boards I've often wondered how many poor butchered souls have walked thru those doors.

Ha ! Ha ! So this dude said he has seen 50 HTs in real life ? Well, has he had a HT yet himself then ? If not then he is likely full of sh*t !!! IMO this is a BIG problem with HT forums; you have all these anonymous posters who can say anything they want and make up any lie they want for whatever motive. Some might even be NW7s who know they'll never be a good candidate and they get off on spreading misinformation knowing that they might convince a good candidate to stay among the baldie crowd. Others are repair patients who seem to have an agenda against ANY type of HT, most likely because they got screwed and they hate the thought of somebody with a virgin head getting great work done. Do yourself a favor and (if you are serious) meet in person with several patients from your chosen doc with sinilar characteristics to yours. Then, and ONLY then will you know for sure.

I see no fault in Feller's work with this case, but I can also see where Malloy is coming from. I think it has less to do with the fact that he had poor previous work than it does the issue of his hair characteristics and low hairline design. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that he has coarse black hair on pale white skin. So even if he would have been a virgin head I think there would have been major challenges anyway to get his hairline to look non-artificial -- and this would apply to any doc. "Hairthere", I disagree that any HT scrutinized close enough will look artificial. I've seen quite a few in person before taking the plunge myself, and pretty much in every case those with coarse dark hair on white skin looked artificial to me. These were all virgin patients from top docs too. On the other hand, the patients I have seen with medium to finer hair were completely undetectable to me as a HT! And I have a VERY critical eye. This is what truly convinced me to go forward knowing my hair was not coarse and my skin/hair contrast was in the middle as well. Had I not observed this and known that my hair characteristics were medium fine I would not have ventured into HT surgery myself. I think Malloy is hyper-critical like me and if people have suspicions about his hairline being artificial that could be a source of extreme anxiety. I personally would not be happy with the "wall of hair" broad hairline that he has; I prefer a soft, feathered transition zone into the hairline with finer hairs because my concern for undetectability is much higher than it is for superman density. It just seems very sad for him because his first HT was a total disaster, and he also seems to have the most difficult characteristics to make a HT look natural in the first place. Double whammy! I think Feller did the best any doc could possibly do for him today given the circumstances.

Copa, The categories for hair shaft diameter are as follows: ultra fine, fine, medium fine, medium, medium coarse, and coarse. Here is a link to a great explanation of this: (promotional link removed) There's alot of other valuable info. in this paper he wrote as well. I think the best case scenario is still is to be somewhere in the middle for "natural" results. This means medium hair shafts and limited loss/area to cover. Until you have had a qualified doc view your hair in person then you cannot know for sure your hair shaft diameter classification. To get the most natural results from HT is a balancing act; the hair density of the sides and back in the non-MPB area should match the transplanted areas. Otherwise something will look "off".

IMO to get what you say you are looking for with the hairline design you drew you will need 5000+ grafts! Post some better pics so we can know exactly where you are at. Be sure to take your hand and pull the hair back so we can see the entire frontal area all the way back to the bridge. I don't think there is much of a chance that the indoor shots made your hairloss look worse than it is. It's usually the opposite 99.9% of the time. I hope I am wrong, but I think you are one of many (including myself 5 years ago) who thinks his hairloss state is better off than it really is because you are used to looking at yourself in the mirror. I thought I was a NW 2.5 years ago when I first visited the HLH forum. Once I took overhead shots in bright light the vets on the forum shot me down quickly and brought me to reality. I thought I'd only need 2000 grafts to look like George Clooney and that turned into 4500. You said you've seen lush, dense, natural hairlines but has that only been in pictures and videos on HT forums ? If so, then you REALLY need to see some patients in person! If you are talking about Armani hairlines then you might as well dump those thoughts in the trash because for every 1 knockout result from him there are likely 50 that failed and whose posts get deleted. Another thing about seeing patients in person (with YOUR hair characteristics!!) is that you might very well decide to not get a HT at all. I say this because you claim you have "coarse" hair shafts but are looking for a result as close to nature as possible. I have seen 4 different patients (one with blondish hair like yours) who had coarse hair and it did not look natural. As a matter of fact, in the more revealing everyday light situations these patients admitted that they get alot of funny stares. All the patients I've seen with finer hair shafts had completely undetectable results, even to my educated eye. HT is alot more complicated than you might like to think, even with today's remarkable advancements. Seeing patients in person (in daylight) is the best education you can possibly get. It doesn't matter that you've researched for years on HT forums; IMO that's only about 25% of the overall research a virgin head prospective patient should be doing before making a decision.

Yes, this is true but it can have disadvantages as well -- especially for somone who is looking for a HT to mimmick nature. The coarser the hair shafts the more of a giveaway it will be that a HT was performed. That's why I still think it's best to be in the middle with stabalized hairloss and medium or medium fine hair diameter. Also, another BIG thing is head size. A small head with medium hair shafts and a small area to cover could be the same thing as a big head with coarse hair shafts and a very large area to cover.

I would say your results are great mainly because had you not informed me I would have never guessed this was a HT. There's still some see-thru-ness at the hairline but it looks natural. To pack it too much would probably make it stand out as a HT. I'll doing backflips if my final hairline turns out that soft and natural looking.

Cool. If possible try to take them outside when the sun ahs gone behind some clouds. Definitely get some top down shots and if your camera has "close-up" mode try that out as well. Remember that hair density and hair shaft caliber are 2 different things. You may have a thick look because of great density but hair shafts that are not thick. The only way to know for sure is to have an in person consult with a reputable doc.

My 2 cents: First of all, from an evaluation perspective, your photos are terrible and do little to reveal the true extent of your MPB. If you sent these to a doc for an online consult he/she would probably tell you to go outside and take some better ones without flash. We need to see the top of your head in bright, revealing light with the hair brushed back and no attempt to hide the thinning areas. Second, from what I could gather from your photos your hairline is pretty much gone and you also have substantial thinning that goes far back into the middle. In a nutshell your MPB state is likely worse than you think and you will need more grafts than you think to get a decent result that satisfies you. Forget about family history because many guys have advanced MPB even though their dad and uncles (on mom's side) have full heads of hair. Third, you are probably somewhere between a NW3/earlyNW4 right now. When you post some pics in bright outdoor light with the hair combed back then I could tell you more accurately. The indoor shots with flash are meaningless, and the ceaser style combed forward look isn't fooling anybody but yourself. Most guys on these forums think they are 1-2 Norwood levels better off than they are, it's just human nature. Look at all the blogs on this site where a guy is clearly a NW5/6 but he selects that he is a NW3 (probably a majority). I thought that I was a NW3 myself until I had a few docs look at me and was told early NW4. I could also comb the hair forward from my solid bridge to cover the loss in the front, and I am 41 years old! Fourth point: IF you are indeed a NW3/early NW 4 then you will need AT LEAST 3500 grafts. Then again, you say you are expecting perfection and you want it to be as good as it was in the glory days of your 20s. These are pretty high expectations for any HT, so to get to this point you will maybe even need 4500-5000 grafts especially if your hair caliber is in the middle or lower. To me it looks like you have medium or medium fine caliber, blondish hair. Plus your hair looks to be straight with little or no wave, so you will need more grafts to compensate if this is the case. 5th point: IF you do indeed need 3500+ grafts and you expect something dense and close to perfection as it was pre-MPB, then you need to forget about FUE completely because IMO your chances of success are under 50% no matter who you go to. If you cannot find at least 50 successful cases from a FUE surgeon well documented online then what does that tell you ? FUE is NOT new, it's been around for 10 years now.

raja, I saw your photos. The best thing you can do right now is wait until at least 1 year to see if the finasteride 1) stops any further loss 2) possibly regrows some hair You need to wait because you have aggressive MPB and if you are going to head to a NW stage 7 then you should just shave your head and forget about HTs. I am glad you had the courage to admit that you were in denial for 7 years. This is important, because many young men on this forum are precisely where you were -- in denial. The main reason they can nonchalantly dismiss finasteride is because they have not yet experienced the level of loss that you have. Now that you see how far it has gone you would probably like to go back in time and get on the medication sooner, but you cannot. My biggest single regret is that I waited until 30 to get on finasteride; but at least I have an excuse, because in the 1990s it was expensive and almost impossible to get. Good luck and remember to take 1.25 mg of finasteride daily. It truly is your only hope to be a candidate for a HT!

BE VERY CAREFUL APPLYING VITAMIN E OIL TO THE SCAR !!!!!!! First of all, make sure of the CONCENTRATION !!!!!!!!!!!!! If it's above 20,000 IU then DO NOT USE IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was very lucky because it wasn't until day 15 that I ran out of the low concentration and bought some 28,000 IU E oil at Rite Aid. This stuff is like crazy glue !!!!!!! Had I applied this high concentration to my scar and recipient area 4 days post-op I am 100% CERTAIN that it would have done more harm than any good. It's so thick that it can trap germs and force them to absorb into the wound, and then you could easily get a nasty infection! I recommend cosmetic grade Emu Oil for the scar. This stuff is very light and has really worked well for me.