EpilepticSceptic

I'm 40.5 years old, and am a solid NW 3 vertex. I have been this way for 15 years now since age 25. Back then I thought for certain I'd be a NW 6 chrome dome by now. I started taking proscar at age 30, but was very inconsistent with it until this last year. Within those 10 years I probably missed taking it for 3 years if you added up all the months where I failed to refill my prescription. Still, my condition remained the same with no further significant loss. My NW 3 pattern developed VERY rapidly from age 21 to 25, and then just mysteriously halted. My temples receded almost overnight and became slick bald skin with no hair at all. Yet the rest of the hair in the NW 3 pattern ( I call it the Richard Nixon look)has remained ever since and it appears to be at least somewhere around 40% of normal density. So last night I plucked some hairs from my donor and the frontal forelock to compare the hair shaft diameter and hair quality. I have come accross many past posts (here & elsewhere)where people say to do this and that most will see a DRASTIC difference in the thickness and quality of the hair. To my pleasent suprise I see NO difference at all !! The color, thickness, and texture looks identical; and I plucked in random spots many times. I have come to the conclusion that there must be a significant possibility that the hair I have remaining on top must somehow possess a much stronger genetic resistance to MPB than the hair that was lost from age 20-25. Is this a safe, reasonable assumption ? Is it possible to have inherited both MPB resistant and MPB suceptible hair within that NW 3 pattern area, and that what remains now is just all of the healthy MPB resistant hair ? Why else would 100% of all the random hairs plucked from my frontal forelock be of the exact same thickness and quality of the hair from my safe donor area ? My mother's father had this exact same pattern of hairloss, and he retained the NW 3 pattern all the way until his death in his 60s. There are also some other hair pattern traits that I share with my mother, like the way the hair grows down the neck at the rear to form a "ducktail". My father has no such pattern, and he is a NW 6 who had reached that level at age 28. Everybody always told me that if your father is bald then you will be bald -- case closed. I guess that must not really be true. It seems that with a HT the most important thing for me is to find a doc who is the very best at planting grafts BETWEEN existing healthy hairs without transecting the follicles. Since so many of the hairs still on top of my head equal the hair shaft caliber of my donor area, it seems logical to conclude that at age 40 it must be because they are MPB resistant. Am I wrong for assuming this ?

What were/are your hair characteristics and FU density per sq. cm in your donor area ? And your hair shaft thickness: coarse, medium coarse, medium, medium fine, fine, or very fine ? PLEASE let us know.

How old are you ? I'd say if you are under 30 years old then just forget about HT all together, as you would not be a good cantidate.

If this is about scoring women just go ahead and find some reasonably priced hookers in your area. Much cheaper than $12,000 !!! And they won't care whether you are bald or not, and you won't have any of the headaches or drama associated with relationships. Some food for thought mon frere.

I hear ya bro! We're all in this together. Concerning docs who are doing excellent FUE: I look forward to the day when ANY of them have a website that posts HD videos with a plethora of patients successful outcomes, with that comb parting the hair in multiple locations on the scalp and clearly defined close-up angles for all to see. I think we know who is the only clinic that has such a website as of now, and they only do strip. Results speak volumes! I do look forward to that day, but I'm afraid I just can't wait until I'm 50 years old to make a move on this -- and I'm 40 now !! And I just cannot easily forget all the Armani Megasession FUE cheerleaders on the HLH forum back in the old days of yore (2005). With the way they were talking about it back then you would have thought strip surgery was an outdated method that only unethical, money fiend butcher docs were still performing. Lo and behold, look who turned out to be the REAL butcher all these years later !!!!!!!!!! Some of those Armani FUE stories sound like concentration camp experiments to me!

Moss, I just don't really understand your aversion to strip. Why do you have such an issue with it ? Is it the linear scar ? If so, then go over to the HLH forum and look up some posts by a dude called "WorkInProgress". Check the repair section and you'll see some of his posts. This guy had over 3000 FUs via FUE, and he describes the back of his head as looking like a shotgun blast went off on it at close range. He CANNOT shave his head down because the scarring is indeed very significant. Years ago so many people were gung ho about FUE because they felt there would be very minimal scarring compared to strip. I think if a patient only needs no more than 1500 grafts then this could be true. But when you need 3000+ I think there's going to be significant scarring back there preventing shaving it down. And the smaller the punch that the docs use (to reduce scarring) the greater the chance of transecting the follicles. From your photo your condition looks quite similar to mine, but I would say it is actually worse. I'm a solid NW 3 vertex, but yours looks to be more on the diffuse thinning side. I'm positive I will need at least 3500 grafts to get me to a mature looking NW 2 with mild, normal adult non-MPB recession. For me it's not an issue of money. If I really felt FUE was a viable alternative then I would probably go that route; but for 3500+ grafts I think that might be wrecking the donor area that might very well be needed for future surgeries down the road if MPB progesses. Plus, with that many grafts I just can't see the "shotgun blast" look being avoided if you want to shave down. So where's the benefit for the significant extra cost ?

So all of those little bumps in that close-up photo that look like pimples are actually cobblestoning due to poor HT surgeon tecnique ? And Armani was responsible for this ?

Wow, this case is simply mind boggling!! Dr. Meshkin's post-op photos look like he had great success and full growth. The photos that the OP posted look almost exactly like his pre-op condition, which seems impossible to me. Something fishy is going on here fellas! I am inclined to believe Dr. Meshkin on this one. BTW, Dr. Meshkin's work looks really incredible to me! That hairline looks as good (natural) as a Dr. Hasson hairline!!

Concerning the OP's post: I have been obsessively researching HTs for over 5 years now, though I am still a virgin scalp. From all that I have learned I could probably teach a course on it now to a college class -- ya know, HT 101 !!! Way back in 2005 on the HLH forum there were MANY newbies taking the FUE plunge and arguing that it was the NEW, SUPERIOR technique and that within a few years strip would be completely obselete. Yet, where was the PROOF ? I thought back then pretty seriously about going to Dr. Cole's (who at that time was considered in the top 3 docs worldwide on that site), and I actually did visit his office for a consultation. I wanted to meet some patients in person, but there basically were NONE !!! HUGE red flag #1 !!!!. There was one guy working at the office who had the FUE (FIT as Cole calls it)and his results looked ridiculous to me. He supposedly had over 3000 grafts, but it looked like he had maybe 500 to me; and he even told me personally that his first FUE surgery was a failure and the grafts did not grow. In my opinion he was a LAB RAT for FUE. Now, just search the HT boards on the net and look under "repair". You will find MANY disillusioned and unhappy FUE patients, most of whom will be the ones who had extensive balding and needed 4000+ grafts. One surgeon in particular (Armani) who advertised "FUE Megasessions" has an overwhelming # of patients who got their donors ravaged and got little or no growth. Again, where is the PROOF ?? The only proof I see after 5 years of watching all the FUE lab rats go under the knife is that, for patients needing alot of grafts with extensive balding, FUE is a VERY risky procedure indeed!! Feller is probably the only surgeon out there who can really handle it (at $10 per graft), and even he will tell you that it is no replacement for strip by a long shot. If you're a good HT cantidate with extensive balding (NW4 or higher), then if you really want your locks back it's my well informed opinion that strip is far superior for most. And the strip/FUE combo seems to be the best of the best at fully maximizing your donor!!

Well, what does 7 strips and 4 fue surgeries tell you about "scar5" ? REPAIR PATIENT! He's 46 and had his first surgery at age 24. Do the math. That means his 1st strip HT was in 1987. At that time, even with the very best doctor, the field was so primitive that EVERYONE who underwent HT surgery was butchered by today's standards. I know to many repair patients reading this it may sound harsh, but the unblemished truth is that pretty much ALL patients who got HTs in the 80s and 90s were lab rats who helped advance the field to where it is today. Just like any other field of medicine or science, it takes thousands upon thousands of experiments with different techniques to finally arrive at something extraordinary. Even strip closure techniques have radically advanced in just 5 short years; so I would definitely assume that scar5's donor scars must be less than optimal, if not downright terrible. I don't mean any offense to you scar5, but a donor area with 7 strips taken out is definitely going to look "thinned out" whether one thins with age or not. I feel for you man, but you just cannot claim that your outcome will be inevitable for a virgin scalp with today's infinitely superior techniques.

Moss, Well, for 41 and no meds you are looking pretty good. Most at your age are a barren wasteland cueball cojack NW6/7 without 10-15 years of "crown jewel" depleting meds daily. lol I would suggest talking to Shapiro or Hasson. You need a doc who has ALOT of experience planting grafts between existing hair to avoid transection of follicles. I think with a 4000+ graft megasession you could maybe become one of the HT poster boys like Spex or Futzyhead. Of course, this largely depends on your donor hair "characteristics". A word of caution: the art of HT is EXTREMELY complicated, so do your research thoroughly. Some guys' hair characterisitcs are so much better than others that 2000 grafts provide a better result than 4000 grafts of another guy with "poor" characteristics. LEARN thy hair characteristics thoroughly BEFORE proceeding !!!

Brother, Man, I'm still praying that he did FUE on you!! You didn't answer the question yet: did you have staples/sutures on the back of your head ? Did he slice a strip out in the back ? Or did he use a punch tool to extract grafts one by one ? That last pic you posted reveals what I have seen all too often in NW6/7 cases. I have known a number of guys who had full heads of Brad Pitt hair until age 25, and then by 30 they were full blown NW6/7. And the pattern they had developed exactly like yours: from the crown forward, leaving that small rim of hair at the hairline to succumb last to the wrath of DHT. The bottom line is that if you already had 2000 grafts and this is still what you look like, you may only have 4000 left to harvest. That's maybe 6000-7000 individual hairs when the "average" human scalp has 100,000. If you do the math it just doesn't look very promising. I'm sorry if I sound negative or harsh brother, but I'd just like to help you from making a poor decision. Hair means everything now at 23, but TRUST ME in a few short years the emotional trauma will subside some. BUT, if you become a repair patient from ill advised HT surgery the trauma will be 1000 fold and NEVER subside for the rest of your life!!!! PLEASE be careful and do not rush into anything from here! Get only the absolute best top doc (Hasson, Shapiro, Feller) to evaluate your head and give you the straight dope. And lastly, I still PRAY that your 1st HT was FUE!!!!!

Dude, Did you have a strip or FUE ? If it was FUE, get down on your knees and thank God that you can still shave your head to a #2. Forget about HTs, shave it down, and move on with your life and just accept that some (with your kind of loss at your age) are meant to be bald. With this kind of loss at 23 you WILL end up a NW 7, probably by age 27-30. I know this because I have seen many dudes who had full heads of hair at age 20 progress to NW 6/7 in 5 or 6 years time. They used to make fun of my NW 3 pattern that had fully developed by age 23, and has stayed the same for 17 years now. MPB is indeed a funny beast with a sick sense of humor! I just don't think you will ever be a good HT cantidate, so I PRAY that your 1st one was FUE ???

Well, after seeing that photo you are clearly a Norwood 3.5 vertex heading to a NW4. The doctor who suggested 4000 FU grafts is the one who I would go with, and I would absolutely do STRIP 1st as Spex suggested. Also, what is your age and family history of MPB ? This is also VERY important! I'm 40 now, and a solid Norwood 3 vertex with no further substantial loss in nearly 15 years! Where I do have hair on top they are healthy non-minutiarized hairs. I'm certian that I will need at least 3500-4000 FU grafts to get me back to a mature Norwood 2 appearence.

I hate to bust your bubble buddy, but you are completely WRONG about this!! I am now 40 years old, and let me tell you straight up that you NEVER stop caring about your hairloss and learn to "accept" the balding look. When I was 22 I can remember thinking my life would be over by age 35, and that I'd probably be dead by that time. The truth is that the best part of your life really only begins at age 40, because at that time you are established in your identity and you become a complete person which makes you WAY more attractive to women. At 40 I still have the same body and level of health that I had when I was 20. I don't feel any older at all, just 1,000,000 wiser and more mature. It's shocking, but I have more women under the age of 25 wanting to go out with me now than I ever had when I was 25! I never expected this when I was 22, but it is indeed true and I recall older guys telling me this back then but I did not believe them. Of course, when the girls see your balding head that makes you look less attractive so the need NEVER dissapears to do something about it. I am one of the lucky 40 year olds because I am still a solid NW3 with minor crown thinning. But trust me, there is nothing more attractive to younger girls (25 and under) than a really good looking older guy who "looks younger", has money and is well established in life. They will go for a guy 20 years older who fits this criteria before a guy their age who is good looking, but is not established in life. So I am planning a HT of 4000+ grafts to bring me back to a mature NW 2. Like I said, you NEVER stop caring about this!! And BTW, I definitely think 30 and younger should NOT be thinking about a HT. I waited until 40 because in my opinion ANYBODY likely to head to NW 6/7 is NOT even a remotely good HT cantidate. Why ? Because it will always still look "see-through" unless you have mutant laxity and Superman density (120 FU or higher).

We knew this on the HLH board way back in 2005 when we saw those 4000 FU graft strip surgeries he was doing on 20 year olds to bring their hairlines back to age 14 density. It was easy to see that he could not possibly have been a doc with a shred of ethics, and it didn't take above average intelligence to see that. Anybody who fell for his shannanigans was just wearing blinders and not doing their proper research.

Man, I'm so sorry to see that this happened to you and SO MANY other Armani patients. I have been away from the forums for 4 years, but I am not suprised to come back and see that Armani has now been finally revealed to be what he always was: a non-ethical BUTCHER CONMAN !!!!! Back in 2005 on the HLH forum me, "TheFittest", and "Dodgedabullet" spent considerable time WARNING all the 20-25 year old guys getting megasessions of 3000-5000 grafts just to fill in the hairline that they would be GUARUNTEED to look like FREAKS of nature 5-10 years down the road!! And they all shouted us down as being negative. There were MANY Armani cheerleaders on that site, and nobody really wanted to hear the harsh truth about the inevtiable DISASTER that Armani was setting up these young guys for. I bet so many of those young and desperate guys wish they had listened to us older guys now, because we really could see this coming. Even the guys who had successful growth from Armani's strip surgeries (where they had 4000 grafts placed in the hairline alone)are now stuck looking like FREAKS of nature because all the hair behind that has fallen out. I know you are devastated by this, but you should really be thanking God that you were not one of those Armani strip patients with a fringe of solid Frankenstein hair at the hairline, bald everywhere else, and a huge strip scar on the back. They are absolutely stuck and DISFIGURED FOR LIFE !!! At least you can shave it down and move on with your life not looking like some circus clown. I know this is hard to hear now, but believe me when I say it could have been MUCH WORSE !! FUE megasession ?? What a joke !! There is NO SUCH THING !!!! FUE takes alot of time to do it right. Armani is just a butcher, probably worse than Bosley ever was !!!!!!!!!!!!!! He just butchered you and transected all of those grafts, and he butchered your recipient area as well and killed all of you native hair there. You were like a McDonalds hamburger to him, nothing more. He hacked you up and took your money, and sold you a bill of goods. But we knew it back then on HLH and it was pretty easy to see what was coming!!!