newbie33

I suspect Ezel may have meant implanting the grafts, rather than making the incisions. If Feriduni doesn't make the incisions, it would disappoint me hugely and be counter to what he said to me.

Can't you see I'm not even arguing the merits of one procedure over the other? I'm trying to explain what I thought they meant by labour intensity - and saying that either way that's not a factor in why one method would give a better or worse result.

Or you didn't understand it, which is not necessarily the same thing. But seeing as you put it so nicely, let me explain further. The end-to-end process for strip - that is to say every single step of the procedure, such as extracting the strip, stitching the wound, etc.. - usually involves a whole bunch of techs in a stage of that process. Overall, I would think it a fairly labour intensive affair, as a number of techs are required to spend hours splicing up the grafts into individual units. But the doctor's work might not necessarily be more than 3 or 4 of those end-to-end process man hours. In FUE, I would hope the doctor would do the extractions, and if using an implanter pen, then making the incisions. The doctor in that set-up is doing maybe up to 8 or more hours of the work. So it's very labour intensive for the doctor - more so than in a standard strip. But the overall labour intensity, i.e. the total number of man hours worked on the entire end-to-end procedure, might be lower than a strip performed as above. But there is no standard way of doing fue, and neither doctor as far as I read specifically said they were referring to their labour, or the labour involved in getting the entire thing done. I've just posited that both of them were referring to a different definition - Feller on the overall labour required and Bhatti on the doctor's labour alone. In any event, the OP asked why there's a string of bad fue results appearing, and seeing as labour intensity isn't an intrinsic factor in why anything turns out bad or good, it's a dead-end argument. Make sense?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dr Feller is talking about strip being more labour intensive as an end-to-end process. Dr Bhatti and others are talking about fue being more labour intensive for the doctor. And that's in relation to how they perform these procedures, which as we know would be different. Either way, neither seem to be suggesting labour intensity is the reason why results turn out poorly. You're all ascribing motives for why the clinic/business would prefer to perform the least labour intensive task. So it's a bit of a red herring if we go back to the original question, which was about - actually, nobody cares about the original question, do they?

Thanks Blake. A very comprehensive explanation, as ever! I expect I'll pull the trigger one day, though heaven knows why - I'm not actually that bothered about my hair loss. Sure, I'd rather have hair and I'd look better for it, but it's basically an indulgence for me to get a HT. My life would be only marginally improved and I have a degree of guilt about not doing something much more useful with the money! Still, an interesting intellectual and anthropological pursuit to learn more about the process and those who undergo it! Ironically, Louisjams, old chap, I think your statement that most average patients don't post their results is equally subject to the logic of sampling error! Without knowing the whole population, it's pretty difficult to tell if people only post the best and worst. I've seen plenty of results on here that I've thought were average - in the sense that they were neither brilliant nor terrible (but I've no real knowledge to say if they were representative of a statistical average, though I assume Bell curve distribution is likely for this as most other things in life). Romper, I looked at Saifi a few years ago and for whatever reason he fell off my radar. Maybe I'll take a look again. Matt, v interesting list! If you've got the time I'd appreciate it if you could pm me with it. Have a good day, chaps!

Blake, I understood until the 'unhealthy scalp' bit. What do you mean by that, and is and/or how is the scalp any different in FUE to strip? On some of the other points, I had a consultation with Feriduni over three years ago. His techs were doing extractions back then. It was actually in that consultation that he suggested I opt for FUE (I'd assumed to get the number of grafts I'd need I would always require strip until that point). Fast forward a few years and a tonne of research and consultations, and I've never really been able to convince myself that FUE would as near as damn it guarantee me a good result - or as good a result as strip. Clearly things like the number of grafts required, numbers transplanted in one session, the doctor extracting and implanting all grafts, and who the doctor is will make all the difference... but I've yet to find a clinic I'd trust that can guarantee how much the doctor will perform of the op (unless it's a doctor who will only perform small fue cases). As an aside, I also consulted with Doganay nearly two years ago. Various things just didn't feel right to me. But the overriding impression I had was that he was going to give me a low hairline and a shitload of grafts no matter what I actually asked for - and that was mostly down to what he expected me to want and therefore go ahead with, and not what would be in my long-term interests. And I'd agree with Romperstomper - it's not the pain that puts me off strip. I'd prefer fue (if it worked for sure), but I haven't ruled out strip. What's going against strip for me is the possibility of a stretched scar and the increased downtime after the surgery. But in both cases I'd dread the following months when it'd look crap and people would know I'd had an op - and that's probably as big a factor as any that's stopped me going ahead with an op.

I think that protocol is fairly standard for Feriduni. The only thing you can guarantee is that he does the incisions. I think the techs have done the extractions for quite a while with him - and the placements. I'm not so bothered about the placement of grafts (sure, skilled, but not so skilled it needs a surgeon) - but I'd definitely expect 100% of the incisions done by the doctor. And I'm fairly uncomfortable about the extractions for fue being done by techs. But you're hard pressed to find any doc who does them all exclusively himself now. I think this practise is becoming more regular as clinics are undertaking multiple surgeries per day. And it's probably why most doctors are pretty vague on exactly how much of the procedure they do - because they don't know for certain you'll be the only one in that day, and how difficult/time-consuming each case will be. Congrats on the firstborn, Ezel. If you didn't before, you'll certainly now know what really matters in life! And to everyone else, I'm rather fond of this quote from Arthur Balfour: Nothing matters very much, and most things don't matter at all.

Sam, buddy, things look bleak to you now, but you know the Arabic saying: this too shall pass. You don't fully know the outcome of your surgery and you don't know your future hairloss. There are some things, at least for now, you just have to give up to the Universe. If you haven't yet, I think it would be a good idea to see a therapist and talk about all this with someone who will listen and be able to guide you through this difficult time. You mentioned you'd stopped going to the gym. Try to go back when you feel up to it, or even if it's just a run around the block. Physical exercise can help with depression. Also, if you can, it's a good idea to speak to friends and family and not to isolate yourself. I don't know if you have the equivalent of the Samaritans, but there are people out there who will just listen and who care for you. Take care of yourself and go well.

Lots of this conjecture is interesting - but it is just that: conjecture. For me, there are two things I'd be concerned about which are fairly objective and uncontested. 1) The doctor doesn't make all the incisions for the grafts. In this case, at least a third weren't done by the doctor. Yes, it's fairly routine for extracting and even placing grafts to be done by techs - but with the implanter pens, that's actually making the incision not just placing the grafts. The angle, depth, spread etc of those incisions are going to play a major part in the final result. 2) Informed consent. This is clearly a greyer area. But for my money, if you're having surgery for cosmetic reasons, then the possibility of requiring further surgeries; the possibility of having insufficient grafts to achieve a good 'non balding' cosmetic result down the road; discussing a suitable hairline for the long term etc. These are all things that should be discussed with the patient - and the onus is on the doctor to inform the patient before they give consent (maybe not legally in Turkey - I don't know - but certainly ethically). Sure, patients should do their research, but in no other field of medicine would we expect the patient to be the expert on possible surgical outcomes/complications. I don't expect cosmetic surgery to be any different.

Classic bantz.

Thanks chaps. Garageland, pleased to see your result is shaping up nicely too. For my next trick, I might produce a helpful glossary of terms/translation...

Newbie33 You're just talking to yourself now. Newbie33 I know, but I get a lot of sense from these conversations, chap. Newbie33 It must be quite lonely for you. Newbie33 Will you hold me and tell me everything will be OK? Newbie33 All right, but only if I can be the big spoon.

Then let's settle it like men - with an increasingly unintelligible exchange of ever-more personal forum replies until ones of us dies.

Chap, we're all here looking to pay big bucks to get a cosmetic surgeon to stick some dead protein on our heads so we can preen at ourselves in the mirror like a 5-year-old in their Snow White costume. Any spirit of suck-it-up-and-get-on-with-it manliness has long since departed these shores. Also, you know, probably not such great advice to give to a guy who is obviously upset and depressed.

Difficult to really say how much of an assessment he made of my future hairloss and hair characteristics. He certainly looked at my hair and from his experience maybe he had a pretty good idea but he didn't say how much donor I had or anything about the calibre of my hair. But he did say I would lose all my hair in the next five years. It was all the more alarming to me when he then drew an NW1 hairline. A hairline that was much lower than I'd asked for and lower than my original juvenile one. And one that if I made it to NW5, which my guess is where I am headed down the road, I doubt I would ever have enough donor to cover. And absolutely no chance if I went beyond NW5.

I think some of you chaps are being a bit hard on Paleo. Sure, it's too early to tell if the overall result will be acceptable, and that the donor might recover if there has been shock loss. But he makes some valid observations of his surgery and how he was treated. Paleo, I'd be having very similar concerns to you if I was in your shoes. As hard as it might be to do, you've just to hang tight and stop trying to focus on the worst possible outcome. If you are experiencing depression or ruminating on worse-case scenarios, there's no shame in seeking professional help with it. A while ago I had a consultation with Dr Doganay. Among other things I ruled him out because I thought his game plan for me didn't take my very probable future hair loss into account. I see a lot of doctors - in Turkey especially - do very low hairlines on very young guys which I think isn't serving their long term interests well. In my case, it was completely counter to the conservative approach I said I was looking for.

RichardDawkinsGuy I'm going to take every last tiny detail literally, despite some statements clearly being meant as metaphorical or illustrative. As per the earlier point about me, 'everyone' was clearly not in the bar to walk out of as I entered, so that claim is empirically and demonstrably false.

Ad I'm going to make point A, probably in a weird, round about sort of way and then leave it there - hanging like a malodorous fart - waiting for someone to walk right into it, before hitting them with various personal attacks. And yo Mama, she so fat, she's at serious risk of developing heart disease, type 2 diabetes and a range of other life-limiting illnesses... Infinitum Well, I totally refute point A. And we'll be going back and forth like this for the rest of time, getting ever more personal and away from whatever point A was in the first place, if indeed it ever had a point. Well yo Mama, she is so fat that your father doesn't find her physically attractive anymore and it's putting a serious strain on both their physical and emotional relationship...

NoMPB34 Because of the stigma and personal inferiority associated with male pattern baldness, I'm going to deny the bleeding obvious fact my hairloss is genetic and externalise the whole issue. Thus, I started losing my hair after the tragic, sudden and massively traumatic loss of my favourite 'Touch Me Elmo' rucksack / evil capitalist multi-nationals putting some special chemical in hair gel which means those men with great hair go bald / due to a rare illness affecting only black women in sub-Saharan Africa that has somehow crossed genotypes, continents and prognosis...

Good. There was nothing sarcastic in what I said - I genuinely am in awe at how reasonable you remain in the face of sometimes obvious idiocy or abuse.

BeachBoy In two weeks' time I'll be getting away from it all in Kokomo, having gotten there fast I will then be then taking it slow (Bermuda, Bahama). I just wondered if anybody knew a HT surgeon there, so I can get about 3,000 grafts in between my windsurfing on the Tuesday and my steel-band lesson on the Thursday morning? (Aruba, Jamaica). Any recommendation from a total stranger's brother's father's uncle will do. (Key Largo, Montego).

You're obviously a lovely bloke, Home, and I'd agree it's best to do it that way if people can bring themselves to admit it. Alas, I was continuing my joke posts: I'm quite incapable of maintaining a relationship over years, and least of all with a woman!

While I'm far too modest to suggest it myself, I will just say that I am British and leave this link here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/honours-how-to-write-citations

RelateCounsellor I've been going out with a girl for five years who says she likes my bald cue-ball head and really values our honest relationship. Yet I'm booked in to get 6,000 grafts with Dr Ressembler Toupe. Do you complete strangers think I should tell her I'm getting HT? Or, my preference, should I lie and tell her an entirely unbelievable story after the op about being beaten up and the trauma causing my hair to slowly regrow, thus ruining the trust and intimacy we've build up and marking the steady demise of my one chance at true love?

Thanks Dr Josephitis. It's really valuable to have doctors posting on this forum and responding to question. Even more so when they give straight answers!