Unethical Physicians, continued...

[Lon]

Yes..especially older patients that want a hair line thats doesn't look receding..I think if they want a normal hair line and would like it thin in the back..and use consealers..that is their perogative...as long as the dr has informed them of what to expect..is my opinion..(anyone not working for a doctor agree with me?)

Originally posted by Beefy:

I guess everyone has a right to look like a freak even with tat's and a hairline as low as the wolfman.

[JakeVig]

Originally posted by Lon:

Yes..especially older patients that want a hair line thats doesn't look receding..I think if they want a normal hair line and would like it thin in the back..and use consealers..that is their perogative...as long as the dr has informed them of what to expect..is my opinion..(anyone not working for a doctor agree with me?)

 

Lon, I dont agree at all. Your (doctor and patients) objectives should be to provide a natural appearance. Dense packing a 21-22 yo to restore a teenage hairline without knowing the full extent of his hairloss is negligent. Young men suffering hairloss are the most vunerable patients who would do anything to try and restore their teenage appearance.

 

After they have depleted their donor there is a chance that some of them might look like Bobman after his first HT:

http://www.hairlossweblogs.com/photos/DSCN0134Large.jpg

http://www.hairlossweblogs.com/photos/DSCN0135Large.jpg

 

This does not look natural and I think everyone would agree is not the best long term interests of the patient.

 

Luckily Bobman's hairline was not placed low and he had enough grafts for full coverage.

 

I can't think of anyone who looks natural with a densly packed teenage hairline and a bald crown. I would think that would be a recipe for a life condemned under hair pieces or hats.

[nikkop23]

yeah, Lon, we're not talking about what older patients might want, so you're confusing the issue. this thread is about the aggressive transplantation of very young patients, who if they're already losing appreciable hair by their early 20s could be in for long-term disaster. the situation you lay out doesn't apply. obviously an older patient with more stabilized loss and ample donor is taking fewer risks, has more latitude in selecting a hairline, and is mature enough not to be sold a simplistic gameplan of "well, we'll just put less in the back" if the future looks bleak.

[UGLY MAN 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by nikkop23:

Yes, I tried to make it clear that I was simply stating opinions, but apparently objecting to the dense packing of 5000 grafts into the frontal third of a 23 year old was too much for them. Their threshold of hysteria is very low, as Shane's brief and ultimately doomed foray onto this site some months back demonstrated. Something about that thread I posted this morning about the 21 year old being recommended 2700 grafts really set me off, though. If you look at his pictures, all you really see is that someone needs to buy the kid a bottle of dandruff shampoo. But it's wearying trying to engage in discussion with several rational and literate posters, the Armani online gestapo, and dozens of cheerleading early 20somethings who've seen pictures and can't understand why they can't do the very same thing right away. Examine the threads at any length and it becomes clear that some of them don't even grasp the concept of finite donor hair yet. I think I'll take a break over there for a while....

 

Unfortunately, that concept won't be grasped that well until they see the first outlines of a NW5. Most of them don't believe it could get that bad.

[nikkop23]

you're right. i've been thinking a lot lately of garageland, who's hair was still very strong in his early 20s and then went downhill very quickly. if he had started down an Armani-like path, he'd be in a lot of trouble. luckily, Hasson has done a wonderful job on him.

[Mark H]

I think the pictures of the girl look a little phony.

 

Mind you, after a six pack, the girl on the right starts to look like the girl on the left anyway.

 

 

Beer: helping ugly people have sex for over 1000 years.

 

mark h

[bayscholar]

lol Mark H.... ...I have had my share of walks of shame...damit why must beer be sooooo good.

[nikkop23]

Is the Armani clinic manipulating or misrepresenting photos now? A supposed 3000 FUE case just went up (after weeks of badgering by forum posters who've been promised FUE photo documentation), but I see no difference in the before and after photos....

 

http://hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=48&threadid=62745

[John_in_NC]

This Shane guy is doing so much harm to Dr Armani--even if Armani himself is the greatest thing since sliced bread . I simply can't believe that he once bragged about getting a degree in marketing or something similar. First he threatens to sue people who criticize him (the dumbest move even he is 100% right legally--which he is not IMO) and now these dubious pictures.

 

Let's look at the numbers alone: 3000 grafts at 80-90/cm2 and 1/2 cm in height. Let's say that he put 100 /cm2 to make it easier and give the doc more room. Unless I am missing something, this means that the hairline is 60 cm wide.

[Guest Landen]

nikkop23,

 

You are a newbie poster that is quite determined aren't you.

 

In my opinion, I am not in agreement of using too much donor on the young patient either. In my opinion, all clinics have done this to some extent.

 

You have cried about it on HLH. You have cried about it here. Now shut up and put a sock in it. It's getting old! You have made your point.

[Beefy]

Some of those pics look a little shady IMO.

[nikkop23]

Nobody's crying, Landen, except you. It's been slow at work this week, and I've enjoyed engaging the debates. I've also done so in a particular rhetorical style deliberately, to elicit the kind of fascistic responses we've seen from certain posters. True colors.... Since it's a perspective that needs to be put out there more frequently on some of these boards for younger readers, I figured I'd take a harder line instead of the usual "hey, it's just my opinion, no worries, looks great bro" pussyfooting and reach-arounds on offer any day of the week. I could argue for the other side if I wanted to, but for some reason I don't. The ethics seem to precede argumentation in these matters, so the irony is that attempting to be persuasive ends up being futile. But the arguments need to be restated regardless. Obviously at some point, other priorities intervene and we all step away for a while and do other things. So kiss my ass....

[the B spot]

What happens when the 33 yr old guy loses his crown and some midscalp hair at 43? Did someone guarantee that he will NEVER go bald? At 33, if you have a full head of hair, you will never go bald? My dad had a FULL head of hair right up to 36-37 years old. Guess what? By 43 he had a combover and 48 is a NW6 with 6500-7000 grafts available. Now let's go back to 33 and put 3000 grafts and lower his hairline a half-centimeter.

Fast forward to today. But wait, the Dr. said I would not go bald. He also said I would have enough donor to restore my balding areas if I start to lose more hair.

What is the point? 10-15 years later when you are trying to find the doctor who did this to you and he or she is not taking calls in their Palm Springs resort, you might be SOL.

Remember, only in the last few years has rapid donor depletion become a real issue with the increased session sizes, as now clinics can do in 1 or 2 sessions what it used to take 4, 5, or even 6 sessions to do.

I think we will begin seeing some of the results of this type of work in the next 10 to 15 years. But Hey, they will be cloning hair then, so no big deal right?

[Guest Landen]

So kiss my ass....

 

 

You do the same.

[the B spot]

That is a lot of Ass-Kissing boys and girls.

 

I rather like it when someone who is not getting paid has strong feelings about a particular subject, and gives his/her opinion.

Of course, we do not all have to agree, we can simply choose to agree to disgree, as demonstrated in thousands of threads here.

 

Nikkop--- love the perspective, understand how you might feel after Landen's comments, but your obviously intelligent enough to hold your own without the ass-kissing comment.

 

Landen-- Quit being so damn mean all of the time!!! Of course, I think your funny as hell, but some might/seem to take it differently than others.

Cheers!!!!!

[Beefy]

Guys, fighting on the internet is kind of lame no one ever wins. Look at it like this if someone wants to use his doner supply on his hairline and save none for a rainy day let them. It is cosmetic surgey not a matter of life or death. Lets hope that some of Armani's future patients do the research about HT's before they go to him.

[the B spot]

Hey Beefy! How's the hairline? You still sporting that hot girlfriend of yours?

Hope all is well buddy!!!!

[Beefy]

everything is cool on my end b-spot , hey you gotta remember to keep the hot girlfriend comments of the DL , or my wife will yell at me. LOL

[hairbank]

After reading this thread, what it comes down to for me is integrity. IMO...............if a person at 20-22 years of age gets a recommendation from a surgeon that they need close to 3000 grafts for the look they want, I hope they seriously evaluate that advice. Hair Loss is tough to predict, at best.

 

To me, it comes down to a surgeon truly giving ethical advice which means even if it hurts their pocketbook, if they know there's the strong possibility of a person's donor supply being depleated from a large session at such a young age, they should advise against it.

 

There's a difference between having enough donor hair to give thin coverage, or thin to medium coverage, all over versus having "dense packed" the hairline or frontal 1/4 or 1/3 then ending up with no donor left for the crown. Before my 2nd HT, I had "decent" coverage in front from my first HT but a bald crown...........I hated it which is why I ended up going for HT #2.

 

This is all based on personal opinion which is why there are differing points of view on this. My OPINION is that having a youthful hairline and a larger shiner on the crown looks bad. If you use up all the donor in front and lose a significant portion of hair in the crown, you won't even be able to use a concealer!

 

The HT work you have done is going to be with you for life. I believe any ethical Doc should be giving advice with this in mind.

[the B spot]

Good Advice Bank!!!!

The only thing I will add is that I think some of these young men should NOT be given the option of doing HT's, period. Of course, this is excluding extenuating circumstances, but as long as this option is available, we will be having this argument.

Anyway, I would hope that we can continue to make a difference, but it is hard because in our early to mid 20's we ALL tend to make hasty, irrational, and uniformed decisions. I know how I felt at 24 the first time I looked in the mirror and I could see all the way into my crown from my hairline. I had been in a state of denial until then, so I just shaved it all off, until 5 years later when I found Dr. Shapiro. Hell, I went to MHR, Bosley, and ALMOST pulled the trigger. Boy, am I glad I didn't!!!

This is one instance where doing nothing paid off!!!!!!

Cheers!!!

[Janna]

Originally posted by John_in_NC:

Let's look at the numbers alone: 3000 grafts at 80-90/cm2 and 1/2 cm in height. Let's say that he put 100 /cm2 to make it easier and give the doc more room. Unless I am missing something, this means that the hairline is 60 cm wide.

 

If anyone comes across a person with 60cm wide hairline, you better take some pictures. I think you'll be able to demand top dollars on the Enquirer. I had to measure today's patient's hairline to compare, it's 16cm across. Shane's pictures and numbers do not add up...IMO. I'd love to talk to the techs who planted 3000 grafts at the hairline. I can't fathom 90-100 incisions in a cm2 for 30cm2. Wow, the potential for bleeding and popping, not to mention the time it takes to extract 3000 grafts. The immediate post-op picture does not indicate such density, nor a 30cm2 coverage...again,IMO.

[the B spot]

Sorry Beefy!!!!!! I will send you coded messages for updates next time

[Lungs]

Has it occurred to you people that maybe Dr. Armani knows something you may not know?

 

Maybe he a step ahead of where you believe hair

restoration actually is..

 

Also, with all the breakthroughs medically and

in the world of hair restoration, I believe that the fda will be approving stronger and more effective drugs which may shut down the market for hair transplants completely. I do not believe that a 23 year old with a receding hair line who wants to keep his original hair line, has much to worry about. We are living in a world that improves techonologically and medically at an exponential rate. Ten years from now, we could see the beginning of hair cloning and the fda approval of current drugs that are under examination. Why should a 23 year old spend the next 10 years of his youth worrying about his appearance, when instead, he could be comfortable enjoying his youth. I don't know how many people have given up experiences and have failed to take advantage of opportunities in their 20's and 30's, because of a negative self-perception.

 

I do not believe we have a whole lot to worry about, and personally, I believe that worrying about being bald or going bald should be for people who are still trying to achieve something, either a relationship, or business opportunities. Its a shame that so many people above the age of 40, that society would expect to be content with themselves, really are not. I've seen pictures of so many people who are above 40 that receive hair transplants of 2000-4000 grafts and seriously look the same. I believe, that if you are going to do this, you should be young and trying to keep a strong hairline throughout your life. Like Armani says, and it is has been tested by psychologist and scientist, is that the attraction to people who have symetrical faces is apparent for successful mating in humans. What a hair transplant that creates a strong hairline does, is that it creates symetry in the face.

[Lungs]

Considering the way you speak of your balls, you probably do not have a lack of donor hairs, so, you may want to consider that as another contribution to my premise. Also, saying 9000 grafts for someone who has cosmetic issues is ridiculous and extreme, much like the hair on your balls. Statements like those are likely what the Armani people are angry about and it is very disrespectful. I know that some of you feel the need to educate people on an issue that is somewhat sensitive, for yourselves and the people you are targeting. However; do you think it is fair to scare a 23 year old individual out of getting cosmetic work done because you believe their may not be enough to help him in the future? Some people get hair transplanted for reasons that do not pertain to hair loss. For example; someone with a forehead like tyra banks and does not have the face of tyra banks..

 

Anyways, glad to speak about balls and hair loss.. Seems the two have a connection in this mystery we call hair loss.. We lose because of what our balls create hormonally.. We can cure it with what grows on our balls.. Interesting..

[chucky]

pretty aggressive reply ng2gb,truthful and to the point.

i like armani`s surgical skill but as a person in my opinion he is unethical in the way he will do a ht on virtually anyone at any age.

 

lungs your post comes across as being an armani plug and you as an employee but if this is not true i apoligise in advance.

 

finally lungs are you goung to answer ng2gb questions.