My Natural Experiment (monthly updates) - Saw Palmetto 20% and Trichoxidil 2.5%

[mustang]

Hi Guys,

I will be documenting my 6-month natural approach to hair loss and results (if any). I'll only be using natural compounds with “scientific data” (conflicting studies at best and poor studies at worse) on this experiment.

My goals are a modest thickening of my existing transplanted grafts and remaining native hair on both midscalp and crown. All of the front middle is transplanted so I don’t expect much change there.

I will start with topical Saw Palmetto 20% / Trichoxidil 2.5% for 3 months. I will apply 2ml EOD as I don’t wash my hair daily and use fibers which I don't like to wash daily.

After the first 3 months I will add microneedling at 1mm deepth with Saw Palmetto 16% (3ml) once a week with Pumpkin Seed Oil 20% and Trichoxidil 2.5% for another 3 months and assess while continuing with Trichometto. 3ml of this formula will deliver 480mg of Saw Palmetto and 600mg of Pumpkin Seed Oil directly (or close) to the follicle so it’s a big dose.

After this point I’ll see if I’ll add others compounds such as IGrantine-F1, Gingko Biloba, Caffeine or Melatonin. I have responded to Laser Level therapy in the past (modest thickening) so I am hoping this will do something.

Note this treatment is best suited for hair transplant veterans, diffuse thinners and works best on the mid scalp and crown from anecdotal reports and a couple of friends that have had success with it. All of them are above 30 years of age and did not want to take medication. This is NOT a suitable treatment for aggressive MPB, if you are in your early 20’s and receding I don’t believe this will do anything for you.

I am allergic to Minoxidil (got dermatitis from it and lost a lot of hair due to it) and have low blood pressure so oral Minoxidil is not an option either. It’s Trichoxidil or nothing for me for growth stimulation.

I had sides with Finasteride (Gyno, low test, brain fog and ED) which thankfully subsided but I will not be taking that either. Natural DHT blockers, high doses and transdermal delivery.

Should this fail, I will hop back on either Topical Dutasteride or Topical Finasteride.

Pictures will be uploaded once a month taken with natural light from the window with flash with both wet and dry hair at a similar length.

I hope this is useful (if successful at all) for those whom can't tolerate 5AR but want to do something to protect their hair.

I'll be using Trichosol as a vehicle for all formulas.

Day 1 Dry

Wet

Combed 

Edited June 18, 2023 by mustang

[asterix0]

Thanks for documenting this, I will be following closely!

 

[RTC]

Good thread

where the hell does one get topical saw palmetto?

[Turkhair]

Saw palmetto is useless for hairloss. Maybe it doesn’t reach the scalp or it’s anti-DHT effects are too weak. I believe it’s a waste of time and money to even consider it. 

Trichoxidil sounds interesting. Any gains you get will be purely from trichoxidil. 

Hope it works out for yo

[baldfighter]

why is Trichoxidil considered natural?

[mustang]

35 minutes ago, Turkhair said:

Saw palmetto is useless for hairloss. Maybe it doesn’t reach the scalp or it’s anti-DHT effects are too weak. I believe it’s a waste of time and money to even consider it. 

Trichoxidil sounds interesting. Any gains you get will be purely from trichoxidil. 

Hope it works out for yo

It's useless orally. Not transdermal.

I have seen it work for others so happy to consider it.

 

[mustang]

31 minutes ago, baldfighter said:

why is Trichoxidil considered natural?

It's a vegan Phyto complex that increases gene expression (growth factors) which thickens the hair. Results are comparable to those of Minoxidil according to a study but then again the study is limited. 

[mustang]

52 minutes ago, RTC said:

Good thread

where the hell does one get topical saw palmetto?

It's made by the same pharmacy in Andorra  (https://anagenica.com/product/trichometto/)

Frist application today and it smells really nice.

[asterix0]

@mustang I will let you know, when my mpb started I tried every single natural ingredient under the sun, with various levels of dosage strength.

I tried topical "natural" anti androgens much stronger than what you are trying and it did not help me.

Granted, I was in my early twenties and balding in a Norwood 6 pattern.

[duckling]

@mustang good luck for your medication journey. hope you are the rare ones who get good benefit from these. after so much of fin+min+keto , dut+min+keto stack results. will be good to see someone try something else. 

[mustang]

3 hours ago, asterix0 said:

@mustang I will let you know, when my mpb started I tried every single natural ingredient under the sun, with various levels of dosage strength.

I tried topical "natural" anti androgens much stronger than what you are trying and it did not help me.

Granted, I was in my early twenties and balding in a Norwood 6 pattern.

Like I said, this would have not helped me in my early to late 20's with my Norwood 5.

This said, both my best mate and brother have been on Saw Palmetto now for 9 months after their HT (they went together) and refused medication. Both late 30's and they have had significant thickening of existing miniaturized hair, it's quite obvious for both of them.

They apply it topically daily and once a week with dermaroller at 0.5mm so I wanted to give it a try. My brother also had a 30% reduction in DHT when taking oral saw palmetto thus it certainly does something.

Problem is delivering it into the follicles. I might do 0.25mm microneedling before applying it (very gently) to help with penetration.

I am not expecting anything to be honest but we will see in 6 months. If it looks the same then success, no further progress but hopefully it will be a bit more than that.

[Turkhair]

5 hours ago, mustang said:

It's made by the same pharmacy in Andorra  (https://anagenica.com/product/trichometto/)

Frist application today and it smells really nice.

Is it the same pharmacy operated by Dr Mwamba?

 I might order it as well. Minoxidil was kind of annoying to use for me, an alternative as good as min sounds fantastic

Edited June 19, 2023 by Turkhair

[mustang]

17 minutes ago, Turkhair said:

Is it the same pharmacy operated by Dr Mwamba?

 I might order it as well. Minoxidil was kind of annoying to use for me, an alternative as good as min sounds fantastic

I can't say if it's as good as Minoxidil, according to the study by Fagron yes but it's new and it's something that still needs more reports by users.

It's not as cheap as Minoxidil either.

By the way the pharmacy in Andorra has nothing to do with Mwamba, they just make bottles for patients like other pharmacies do for him and other surgeons in Brussels and in Italy.

[Follicle1984]

Hi Mustang.

Can I ask why you no longer take topical dutasteride? Apolgoes if you've already mentioned this somewhere already.

I tried hairmetto...a topical saw palmetto. Granted I probably didn't give it long enough to work, but I didn't really see anything obvious for the couple of months I used it. Not sure I put enough on really either. Very greasy so it required twice daily hair washing which became difficult to maintain. Good video on YouTube documenting a guy who microneedled with hairmetto for several years and supposedly got fairly good results (as long as he was genunine and honest and not using fin and not telling us...I think he seemed genuine).

What are you thoughts on cosmerna? And RU?

Edited June 23, 2023 by Follicle1984

[mustang]

31 minutes ago, Follicle1984 said:

Hi Mustang.

Can I ask why you no longer take topical dutasteride? Apolgoes if you've already mentioned this somewhere already.

I tried hairmetto...a topical saw palmetto. Granted I probably didn't give it long enough to work, but I didn't really see anything obvious for the couple of months I used it. Not sure I put enough on really either. Very greasy so it required twice daily hair washing which became difficult to maintain. Good video on YouTube documenting a guy who microneedled with hairmetto for several years and supposedly got fairly good results (as long as he was genunine and honest and not using fin and not telling us...I think he seemed genuine).

What are you thoughts on cosmerna? And RU?

Cause of pregnencancy attemps.

Yes, I have seen that video and the results are good indeed but that serum is a nightmare to apply. The one I use is hydrosoluble and dries within minutes. It also has trichoxidil which works great and your right, you have to be consistent and can expect miracles but if I can have maintenance and slight thickening then it's a win for me.

I have no opinion on CosmeRNA , it's too early to tell, seems promising but also quite strange and pricey. I have my reservations.

RU works but it's a dangerous chemical with potential heart issues, I would never touch it. CB0301 is much safer.

[Follicle1984]

2 hours ago, mustang said:

Cause of pregnencancy attemps.

Yes, I have seen that video and the results are good indeed but that serum is a nightmare to apply. The one I use is hydrosoluble and dries within minutes. It also has trichoxidil which works great and your right, you have to be consistent and can expect miracles but if I can have maintenance and slight thickening then it's a win for me.

I have no opinion on CosmeRNA , it's too early to tell, seems promising but also quite strange and pricey. I have my reservations.

RU works but it's a dangerous chemical with potential heart issues, I would never touch it. CB0301 is much safer.

I wish you the very best of luck 👍 🙂 let us know how you get on with it. Trichometto looks interesting. 

I agree CB 0301 seems safer. However it's seems to have stalled. Not heard anything about it for years. Pyrilutamide will be released first I think. Will be awesome when that's commercially available. GT20029 I think may be the best.

I agree about cosme. I think I have resigned to wait for at least afew more months before trying it. The idea of something preventing ARs developing elsewhere in my body if it goes systemic, which I have seen no data to say why it theoretically can't, is off putting (for me at least).

Edited June 23, 2023 by Follicle1984

[mustang]

The fact that is has been approved as a cosmetical when it degrades receptors is shady to say the least. 

Also the price putts me off. 

Pyrilutamide has a bad side effect profile. It's quite strong. CB0301 never took off but I know of people using it with success but most didn't adhere, true.

I am hoping the natural route will do it for me.

[Follicle1984]

3 hours ago, mustang said:

The fact that is has been approved as a cosmetical when it degrades receptors is shady to say the least. 

Also the price putts me off. 

Pyrilutamide has a bad side effect profile. It's quite strong. CB0301 never took off but I know of people using it with success but most didn't adhere, true.

I am hoping the natural route will do it for me.

I thought pyrilutamide was pretty safe when I read the studies?? No reports of much other than scalp irritation?? Where did you read it had bad sides?

I think with cosme, it all depends how systemic it goes...like with topical dut. My personal opinion is almost all topicals must go systemic to some degree, its probably just a case of how much and what their half life is until they degrade into something else, and if that that something else has any inherent effects of its own. If there were bigger studies on cosme showing safety and blood serum levels of the compound after use (like they did with pyrilutamide) I'd feel a bit more comfortable.

Overall I just wish they had more efficacious drugs which worked on non androgen pathways where there was just no risk if anti androgen side effects. I wish they had done more with topical ciclosporin. It showed quite a lot of promise in the small studies done.

OK...so you may think this is whacky but have you ever read about botox use for androgenic alopecia? I've been experimenting with scalp massage recently, and weirdly I think I've seen a reduction in shedding. Seriously considering botox as when you read the small scale studies done, they had comparable results to finasteride!

Edited June 24, 2023 by Follicle1984

[ssimpson7511]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:45 PM, mustang said:

Cause of pregnencancy attemps.

Yes, I have seen that video and the results are good indeed but that serum is a nightmare to apply. The one I use is hydrosoluble and dries within minutes. It also has trichoxidil which works great and your right, you have to be consistent and can expect miracles but if I can have maintenance and slight thickening then it's a win for me.

I have no opinion on CosmeRNA , it's too early to tell, seems promising but also quite strange and pricey. I have my reservations.

RU works but it's a dangerous chemical with potential heart issues, I would never touch it. CB0301 is much safer.

Do you have a link to the saw palmetto you use?

[mustang]

I'm using the one from anagenica.com but you can ask any pharmacy to compound it I guess

Trichoxidil is a little trickier to get 

[EricEdwards]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:08 PM, RTC said:

Good thread

where the hell does one get topical saw palmetto?

I was about to ask the same question. I've heard of Saw Palmetto oil but I'm unsure where it can be purchased.

I've opened a tablet capsule of Saw Palmetto and topically applied the solid powder but I'm unsure if it is effective.

[EricEdwards]

3 minutes ago, EricEdwards said:

I was about to ask the same question. I've heard of Saw Palmetto oil but I'm unsure where it can be purchased.

I've opened a tablet capsule of Saw Palmetto and topically applied the solid powder but I'm unsure if it is effective.

According to ChatGPT:

Converting a tablet capsule form of saw palmetto into a topical liquid form would require a few steps. However, please note that altering the form of a medication or supplement should be done under the guidance of a healthcare professional or pharmacist, as they can provide specific instructions based on your needs and ensure the safety and efficacy of the product. Here's a general guideline:

1. Gather the necessary supplies: You will need the saw palmetto capsules, a mortar and pestle (or a clean coffee grinder), a carrier oil (such as coconut oil, jojoba oil, or olive oil), a glass container with a lid, and a fine-mesh strainer or cheesecloth.

2. Crush the capsules: Open the saw palmetto capsules and carefully transfer the contents to the mortar and pestle. Alternatively, you can use a clean coffee grinder to powderize the capsules. Grind the contents until you achieve a fine powder.

3. Mix with carrier oil: In the glass container, combine the powdered saw palmetto with the carrier oil. The ratio of saw palmetto powder to carrier oil can vary depending on your preference and the desired concentration. You may start with a 1:4 ratio (one part saw palmetto powder to four parts carrier oil) and adjust as needed.

4. Stir and infuse: Mix the saw palmetto powder and carrier oil thoroughly, ensuring that the powder is evenly distributed. Place the lid on the container and let the mixture sit for several weeks to allow the saw palmetto compounds to infuse into the oil. Shake the container gently every few days to promote thorough infusion.

5. Strain the mixture: After the infusion period, strain the mixture using a fine-mesh strainer or cheesecloth. This will remove any remaining solid particles, resulting in a smooth liquid.

6. Transfer to a suitable container: Pour the strained liquid into a clean, airtight container that is suitable for topical application. Consider using a dark glass bottle to protect the liquid from light, as some compounds may degrade when exposed to light.

Remember to label the container with the contents, date of preparation, and any other pertinent information. Prior to using the topical liquid, perform a patch test on a small area of your skin to ensure there are no adverse reactions. If you experience any discomfort or irritation, discontinue use and consult a healthcare professional.

It is essential to consult with a healthcare professional or pharmacist before modifying the form of any medication or supplement to ensure it is safe and appropriate for your specific situation.

[mustang]

It won't work

To complex to explain, you need to buy either the oil extract or one that has already been processed to a liquid form which is quite difficult. 

Power won't do anything plus it's not hydro soluble

[Follicle1984]

So just after I mentioned I'd not heard about CB 03 01 for ages, follicle thought article announcing it'd FINALLY entered its phase 3 study. I thought it had been dumped...but I think it's way more to do with the company merging or something maybe. So...2025 it may be out.

Also mustang...I realised I also had an old bottle of the hair metto non oily which also has saw palmetto..it contains 200mg per 5ml of CO2 extracted saw palmetto standardised to 85-95% fatty acids. What percentage would this make it? What specific ingrediant is your 20% standardised to?

So your thoughts are saw palmetto is only really effective topically?

I suppose if you could get a very high dose to the follicles and may even applied multiple times a day...it could maintain a higher level of the fatty acids needed to block 5AR. I believe it blocks both type 1 and 2?

I guess the good thing with fatty acids being your 5 AR blocker is their half life is very short...both a pain as you need to apply very frequently (I bet 4 times a day would be better than 2 if possible...but totally unfeasible unless you never leave the house haha). But this same fact means even if it worked its way around the body and you got sides, I bet the side effects would not last long. 

Also regarding sides...I wonder if these fatty acids bind in a suicidal manner to 5AR? I beleive finasteride and dutasteride bind and never let go? So if you get sides you need to wait ~90 days to rebuild all your lost 5 AR (i think this accounts for a lot of longer lasting sides*). Whereas if the fatty acids dissociate after afew hours, if you got sides, waif afew hours and your back to normal. Hmm...need to try and do some research on this!

*of of the docs on the hairloss show states he always felt the halflife for fin IN THE TISSUES was actually much longer than afew hours...more like weeks. Whether that lasting in the tissues is actually because it never let's go of the 5AR once bound (suicidal binding) and as the enzyme may last weeks, it is technically in the system for longer?!

Finally...have you ever used alfatradiol? That ca  supposedly act as a topical 5AR inhibitor.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Follicle1984

[mustang]

Alfatradiol is quite weak for men but in combination with progesterone it's very good on women. It's also good for men on TRT with Finasteride included.

I guess having fatty acids blocking 5AR half of the day is better than nothing.

My 20% means there is 200MG per ml so I am getting 400mg to 600mg every time I apply it (I do 20 puffs to 30 puffs, 1ml equals 10 pulses)

CB0301 is being sold and has been around for a while with the proper vehicle from several vendors, you don't need to wait for 2025 to try it. It's the same compound. Some people get fatigue (HPA issues), others don't have sides but the ones that did recovered within days of stopping.

I think at 1% to 2.5% it's safe to issue but you might need to supplement with DHEA or Pregnenolone (if causing adrenal issues).

It's tricky but safer than RU for sure and also weaker.

For now I see no changes with my protocol which is good, I am not losing much hair (2-3 strands a day).

I guess an overload of fatty acids from both Saw Palmetto and Pumpkin Seed oil plus the dermarolling and the growth factors of Trichoxidil is as good as it gets naturally. You can add a laser cap on top of that.

Time will tell

Edited June 27, 2023 by mustang