My Natural Experiment (monthly updates) - Saw Palmetto 20% and Trichoxidil 2.5%

[Follicle1984]

8 hours ago, mustang said:

Alfatradiol is quite weak for men but in combination with progesterone it's very good on women. It's also good for men on TRT with Finasteride included.

I guess having fatty acids blocking 5AR half of the day is better than nothing.

My 20% means there is 200MG per ml so I am getting 400mg to 600mg every time I apply it (I do 20 puffs to 30 puffs, 1ml equals 10 pulses)

CB0301 is being sold and has been around for a while with the proper vehicle from several vendors, you don't need to wait for 2025 to try it. It's the same compound. Some people get fatigue (HPA issues), others don't have sides but the ones that did recovered within days of stopping.

I think at 1% to 2.5% it's safe to issue but you might need to supplement with DHEA or Pregnenolone (if causing adrenal issues).

It's tricky but safer than RU for sure and also weaker.

For now I see no changes with my protocol which is good, I am not losing much hair (2-3 strands a day).

I guess an overload of fatty acids from both Saw Palmetto and Pumpkin Seed oil plus the dermarolling and the growth factors of Trichoxidil is as good as it gets naturally. You can add a laser cap on top of that.

Time will tell

But CB0301 was tested at 7.5% BD...and I beleive showed good safety? I doubt a weaker strength would be effective for AA as its not a very strong anti androgen mg for mg (I beleive...relative to DHT at least). Probably need at least 150mg per day topically to stand a chance of fighting the good fight. 

Well...let us know how you get on with saw palmetto. I suppose if the concentration is high enough and from a decent quality product, you may be luckier than many who have failed with it. I'm sure microneedling can only help with absorption. I may even be tempted to give my hairmetto non oily another go 🙂

I'm hoping cosme will be a hit...that would be great news for us all 🙂🙂

Edited June 27, 2023 by Follicle1984

[mustang]

18 hours ago, Follicle1984 said:

But CB0301 was tested at 7.5% BD...and I beleive showed good safety? I doubt a weaker strength would be effective for AA as its not a very strong anti androgen mg for mg (I beleive...relative to DHT at least). Probably need at least 150mg per day topically to stand a chance of fighting the good fight. 

Well...let us know how you get on with saw palmetto. I suppose if the concentration is high enough and from a decent quality product, you may be luckier than many who have failed with it. I'm sure microneedling can only help with absorption. I may even be tempted to give my hairmetto non oily another go 🙂

I'm hoping cosme will be a hit...that would be great news for us all 🙂🙂

CB only competes with Testosterone for me, not with DHT. 

A combination of Topical Fin or Dutasteride with CB0301 is a good combo. 

I tried Hairmetto but it's a mess to apply. 

[Follicle1984]

19 hours ago, mustang said:

CB only competes with Testosterone for me, not with DHT. 

A combination of Topical Fin or Dutasteride with CB0301 is a good combo. 

I tried Hairmetto but it's a mess to apply. 

So the saw palmetto topical you are using is trichometto? Do you know if they ship to the UK?

Is it standardised to a percentage or concentration of fatty acids?

The hairmetto states 85 to 95% fatty acids. CO2 extraction which is apparently best method.

[mustang]

48 minutes ago, Follicle1984 said:

So the saw palmetto topical you are using is trichometto? Do you know if they ship to the UK?

Is it standardised to a percentage or concentration of fatty acids?

The hairmetto states 85 to 95% fatty acids. CO2 extraction which is apparently best method.

I have no idea to be honest. I know that saw palmetto powder is not hydro soluble and neither is oil (higher in fatty acids) and this is a liquid preparation.

They somehow managed to extract it from oil and made hydro soluble but I have no idea how.

The MesoMetto they offer is on oil however (TrichoOil) so that's definitely 85-95 fatty acids, question is weather it's easier to apply than the Hairmetto stuff

It's next on my list, I am giving this 3-4 months and then moving on or adding something on top. So far very little shedding.

[mustang]

Quick update: Shedding has gone up a little. I normally lose 5 hairs daily when washing it (on average, sometimes none, sometimes 3, most times 5). I shed very little hair as most is transplanted and those tend to shed even less.

The last 2 weeks it's gone up to 15 per wash and they all come from the area where I am applying the product.

Hopefully that's a good sign.

 

[Follicle1984]

On 7/3/2023 at 4:14 PM, mustang said:

Quick update: Shedding has gone up a little. I normally lose 5 hairs daily when washing it (on average, sometimes none, sometimes 3, most times 5). I shed very little hair as most is transplanted and those tend to shed even less.

The last 2 weeks it's gone up to 15 per wash and they all come from the area where I am applying the product.

Hopefully that's a good sign.

 

Good to hear mustang.

Keep us posted.

Im considering cosmerna to be honest. Along with an androgen receptor blocker. 

I was reading that even gamma linoleic acid that blocks 5AR does so irreservably at least somewhat, which does make me a little concerned for finasteride-like side effects which may linger on afew weeks after disconinuation if they occur.

Presume you've not noticed any side effects?

Update...

You've inspired me to hop back on topical saw palmetto mustang. I had such bad experiences with fin, that I just couldn't get over the fear and try topical dutasteride. I figure topical saw palmetto and pyrilutmide might work well instead.

I have heard oral saw palmetto only has about 18% of it arrive at the skin and scalp. So maybe it is a whole different beast when used topically, especially with some microneedling once a week. Will keep you posted. 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Follicle1984

[mustang]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:12 PM, Follicle1984 said:

Good to hear mustang.

Keep us posted.

Im considering cosmerna to be honest. Along with an androgen receptor blocker. 

I was reading that even gamma linoleic acid that blocks 5AR does so irreservably at least somewhat, which does make me a little concerned for finasteride-like side effects which may linger on afew weeks after disconinuation if they occur.

Presume you've not noticed any side effects?

Update...

You've inspired me to hop back on topical saw palmetto mustang. I had such bad experiences with fin, that I just couldn't get over the fear and try topical dutasteride. I figure topical saw palmetto and pyrilutmide might work well instead.

I have heard oral saw palmetto only has about 18% of it arrive at the skin and scalp. So maybe it is a whole different beast when used topically, especially with some microneedling once a week. Will keep you posted. 

 

In terms of side effects I have noticed a slight reduction in libido, not gonna lie. Well, my girlfriend has. Last week I was quite uninterested but nothing like Finasteride of course. We still manage but I was less interested.

I also noticed slight dizziness but that could be anything (I tend to have low blood sugar, etc..)

Shedding has stopped which is good.

Saw Palmetto inhibits DHT anywhere from 38% in some studies up to 50% in tissues on others. I never had results with it orally to be honest.

Now putting 600mg in my head after dermarolling and with Trichoxidil is a different strategy for me. So far I have not much to report, no more shedding, slight drop in libido but nothing major and hair is looking pretty much the same although I "feel" it's a little thicker but it's just a perception.

I'll take pictures at 6 weeks and see if there is anything different. 

I will be doing the oil based Saw Palmetto once a week with a dermapen and the topical one daily from September onwards, both with Trichoxidil

[Follicle1984]

I agree. I never had any postive results from taking oral saw palmetto.

I'm actually had some old bottles of hairmetto that I hadn't really used much of. So I've decided to restart use and really monitor my shedding and see what happens.

I have to credit Derek at MPMD with his video advising a hair catcher in the bath/shower. Given hairloss is a real long term game, where you may not see actual visible results for 6 to 24 months, having a tangible metric like how many hairs you shed, can be an invaluable took to guide you on if something may actually be working and you just need to stick with it.

Who knows how many treatments I may have started in my past but never carried on beyond afew months because I didn't see any instant effect. To be honest, I now view just halting progression as a major victory. So maybe I gave up on topical saw palmetto way too prematurely last time. The good thing is when I used it for afew months I never had any noticible side effects. Certainly nothing like what finasteride did to me.

Apparently many saw palmetto brands use inferior extraction methods. So I'm guessing not all products are equal. I'm still not sure what does the heavy lifting, ie beta- sitosterol vs certain fatty acids. Maybe a combo. But I guess it's those things which you want a lot of in any topical.

I'm going to use the oil at night, then a non greasy saw palmetto in the mornings.

Let's hope we can see some decent results.

If it blocks even a bit of 5AR, it will mean that topical androgen receptor blocks have less work to do. Throw in a AR reducing drug/product like cosme or GT, and I think there may be a potential of a very potent stack. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Follicle1984

[mustang]

We will see. I am not expecting miracles to be honest but it feels good to do something about hairloss and hair thickening even if it just helps maintain it.

I will say I have seen 2 VERY good results with Trichoxidil and Saw Palmetto but I don't know if it was either or the other responsible for it.

It's only 5 EUR to add it into the mix so might as well put it in there

 

[ST91]

Thanks for documenting your journey on natural DHT blockers. 

I will be pausing my fin usage because of pregnancy attempts as well. Would be nice to have something like Saw Palmetto in the meantime, even if it helps just a little..

[ssimpson7511]

On 7/9/2023 at 1:50 PM, mustang said:

We will see. I am not expecting miracles to be honest but it feels good to do something about hairloss and hair thickening even if it just helps maintain it.

I will say I have seen 2 VERY good results with Trichoxidil and Saw Palmetto but I don't know if it was either or the other responsible for it.

It's only 5 EUR to add it into the mix so might as well put it in there

 

Where are you sourcing Trichoxidil  from?

[mustang]

from anagenica.com

[Bucky O Hair]

This is a very interesting thread.

Looking forward to seeing any progress updates over the next several months/years.  

 

[mustang]

I will take pictures and upload on Monday in the same room, distance and hair styles.

I think my hair feels a little thicker around my crown but pictures will show us the reality. 

[mustang]

Very interesting fact. I have about 1000 BHT grafts on my mid scalp (implanted back in 2017) and for the first time I have seen some of them shed or fall out. Not all of them but at least 20-30. They look completely different so it's obvious when they do.

So much for Saw Palmetto not blocking DHT.

[mustang]

Almost 6 weeks update

Definitely some shedding around the crown but hair also feels thicker (maybe darker?).

I think the wet pictures proof really useful.

Half life of fatty acids is short and I have been using them every other day so I will increase to daily usage next week.

Another update at 3 months

[mustang]

Here you can clearly see the crown being less dense than before starting treatment in line with the shedding I had.

 

[mustang]

Update: shedding has finally stopped.

Hair is feeling a little thicker. 

No side effects so far. 

Using 2ml a day.

 

[jim1973]

8 hours ago, mustang said:

Update: shedding has finally stopped.

Hair is feeling a little thicker. 

No side effects so far. 

Using 2ml a day.

 

Thanks for documenting your journey.  For those of us that don't respond well to the standard, recommended products, this gives some of us hope.  I've not heard of Anagenic before this post but will certainly take a look at them.  Can you clarify if you are spreading the product all over scalp or just in specific areas?  And do you think this regimen would work as well if you weren't micro-needling? 

[mustang]

I do not think you would respond to this if you didn't respond to Finasteride as it's not nearly as strong!

I am using all over but only micro-needling once a week on the crown and vertex. 

Anything you do to enhance absorption will be beneficial.

[mustang]

Things are looking better

I'll upload pics in a few weeks

Sadly I do feel my libido has gone down a bit. At least we know it works to some extent. 

[mmokin]

would the topical dutasteride or topical CB have fewer libido effects than topical saw palmetto?

[mustang]

10 hours ago, mmokin said:

would the topical dutasteride or topical CB have fewer libido effects than topical saw palmetto?

I don't know

I do remember not having sides with Topical Dutasteride so maybe

[EricLaurent]

Thank you for these experiences! Unfortunately I very much doubt the action that Saw Palmetto can have but Trichoxidil will certainly have an effect!

I can't wait to see the results!

[mustang]

22 hours ago, EricLaurent said:

Thank you for these experiences! Unfortunately I very much doubt the action that Saw Palmetto can have but Trichoxidil will certainly have an effect!

I can't wait to see the results!

I thought so too but the fact that some BHT hairs fell out (never shed one in my life) and the same happened when applied on the beard tells me DHT is being reduced.

I think Saw Palmetto does reduce DHT, specially if applied directly transdermal and in a very high dose but it's no Finasteride for sure.