when shaved what density can achieve a relatively 'non balding look'?

[johnboy]

Hi as the subject states, around what density (per cm square) can achieve alook that wont make me look that im going too bald, my next ht will be to fill in the middle part of my scalp. but as ive not got too many grafts left in the donor i would like to get the best look from a relatively small number of grafts

 

Regards

[scar5]

You need lots of density on the edges and flat, fine, light colored hair shingling across the skin behind to even get even close. If you want a buzzed or shaved look and HT hair to create a look that blends in with other native hair which is buzzed - at all light conditions and angles - it maybe impossible. However, I believe that characteristics of your hair/skin together with acutely flatly placed small fue units can make the contrast less obvious, (with hair bleach even better, but bleaching buzzed hair requires a weekly chemical bath) If the surgeon makes the incisions even slightly vertical (to get density at grown-out, combed back style) then forget it.

[Julius]

Great question johnboy I would assume it would be less if it was buzzed

scar5; ???If the surgeon makes the incisions even slightly vertical (to get density at grown-out, combed back style) then forget it???, can you please explain this? The only fue surgeon I know who does lateral is Shapiro, but I think feller does vertical as does H&W (even though they only use strip).

 

Scar 5, you raise a good question; is a buzzed HT hair able to create a look that blends in with other native hair which is buzzed - at all light conditions and angles?

[TheEmperor]

As my HT1 hair grows out after HT2, it might almost be possible to create a good buzzed look from afar.

 

If you are planted at 1/3rd original density, then the hair on top would need to be 3x as long as native (side) hair to provide the same coverage.

 

So if the side hair is buzzed to 1/4", you could grow the top hair to 3/4". With hair growing forward, it doesnt spike up like a porcupine, so it would look somewhat homogenous. 100% No, but under most conditions, no one would notice.

 

This assumes there is no scar.

 

My hair is fine and somewhat light, and I find that a "less is more" look would have been possible with FUE. I cant go nearly that short on the sides because of the scar.

 

If my hair were more coarse or dark, I think this would become less possible as the individual hair details would be obvious.

 

If I did not have a scar, I would seriously consider keeping the hair on top at 3/4" and buzz the sides/back.

[johnboy]

Hey thanks for the reply folks, ive saw Stephen Bell who had fue done with Dr Bisanga and his hair is shaved down, and i think it looks brilliant, so a good result can be achieved, can anyof you post some pics of people who have shaved down after a ht?

many thanks

[Sparky]

Dr Bisanga also put Steve's hair in at an angle that would look better when shaved. Steve's density is about 60 per sq cm on the top of his head, and he doesnt look like he is balding at all.

 

I'm talking about the Steve who works for Dr Bisanga though, not sure who Stephen Bell is.

[scar5]

Julius,

OK, we are talking different things here. I say Vertical in respect to 'angle of exit' not in the sense you are thinking of, which - correct me if I'm wrong - refers to angle of orientation, or perpendicular or parallel (otherwise known as Lateral vs Saggital slits) where the knife/blade used to make the incisions, either parallel or across the flow of native hair. I think it is generally commonly thought that Lateral slits help the surgeon control the 'angle of exit' better (see Wong http://www.springerlink.com/content/m34282753q42n750/) But that is just part of the story, because enter another variable (that hardly anyone talks about) and that is orientation of the graft being transplanted itself, in respect to the vacant slit. This is, IMO, the real deal breaker for why buzzed HT hair seems to look odd, even if singles FUs are used in acute slits. Once again color helps to disguise this, and excellent that someone brings up up Steve from BHT who has great hair characteristics plus salt 'n pepper color (note too, that Bisanga didn't do all his FUE) For a tech to rotate the FU to optimally orientate each and every graft for each slit would take too much time and require more grasping the precious FU in the tool. They generally put 'em fast and clockwork, not actually like an artist planning a masterpiece. So most HTs are designed for the 'illusion of density' as the hair grows up and out, not for the 'illusion of..eh..'I 'aint bald I just wanna buzz' (call it what you will) - but as pointed out, Steve's does look like it was more the latter. My hair buzzed can look brilliant (relative for a balding HT man of course) in shady or mid-distant shots and absolutely bizarre under the bright lights at close up say in an elevator. It is SO frustrating...I frequently do buzz, but I get told time and again, let it grow, which is so lame..but back to point, I think it is possible and Steve from BHT is the proof.

[scar5]

What density for natural shaven FUE - about to contradict everything I said if these videos are true, and I think they are

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...poA&feature=related,

 

A whole bunch of these on youtube from this clinic - just for video they look great. There are more than a few patients here being shaved post-FUE for the camera. It's pretty good to watch

[OxyHair]

Interesting points raised, all. But to really get an idea of how transplanted hair, particularly strip transplant, looks weird when buzzed, can anyone provide some images? Any sort of picture indicating how so?

[MikeTheDane]

I guess it really depends. If you're a candidate for fue, and want to shave down to 2-4 mm you could probably pull it off with as little as 30-35 grafts/cm2 given that you restore a NW 2 hairline+temporal peaks.

 

The crown is the least important in this case as it can be practically non-existant without impacting the overall shaved look too much.

 

The best approach would probably be to get a large area covered, and use concealer to add the illusion of density.

[Julius]

The problem with buzzed ht hair seems to be that it looks pluggy or too thick because donor hair has thicker shafts and holds more pigment. I know one fue patient who buzzes but angles his hair down so the roots cannot be seen. I have heard another experience poster say that fue results shaven look worse then fut in relation to transplanted hair sticking out. What do others think about this?

 

Scar 5, the orientation of the graft being transplanted should match the orientation of pre existing hair shouldn't it?

Although I have heard the complaints from some buzzed fue patients that buzzed hair does not match the orientation of native hair well.

Check out London lad buzzed after HT #2 (even though he had strip) his orientation looks good, though it might look different in person. Besides the scar if he buzzed always the problem of differing densities (see crown and donor region) is the only other thing that seems could out it as a ht

 

The real problem with fue is that only about 2500 grafts can be extracted before a moth bitten appearance. However I would assume if one shaved the donor region after a fue ht it would not be so visibly moth eaten.

Personally I would still want a density of at least 55 grafts per cm2 even if I buzzed with fue.

[Sparky]

Thats not entirely true about only being able to take out 2500 grafts, I know someone who has had 7000 out and you cant see a single fue mark, and he shaves down to about 2mm.

[TC17]

I agree with Sparky that 2,500 doesn't seem to be accurate. I think for certain that 7,000 grafts is on the very high end, but that number seems theoretically possible.

 

Look at Bill's photos before his most recent surgery with Dr. Hasson. I'm not sure what his density was, perhaps he can share that with us, but it sure looked like a really nice head of hair when cut to that length.

 

I'm basing this belief off of nothing more than a guess, but I think if you have reasonable hair characteristics, you might be able to get away with a density of 35 or so over the entire scalp and look really good if it's buzzed down.

[Sparky]

Well my m8 who has had 7k taken from his head had very good density on the back and sides (110 per sq cm) so he could be the exception, he has been able to restore his entire head of hair to NW1 with no visible scars. Combination of bht and fue, no strip. About 8k altogether.

[Julius]

I don't know of any recommended doctors on this forum who go over 3000 grafts using fue, it is great to hear that it can be done though. TC17 I also thought Bill rocked shaven, but beside the scar if you look carefully at the crown and the donor region there is a discernable difference in density, although with fue it could probably be thinned out and used to thicken the crown.

Cheers

[Julius]

What do others think is best for a shaved look to the rcipient area fue or fut?

[MikeTheDane]

7k is a very very big stretch coming from the scalp alone. Besides, it would be incredibly expensive, especially in combination with BHT(which some clinics charge even extra for)

 

Not saying it isn't possible, but it requires amazing donor qualities.

 

The person in scar5's link has received 3777 grafts from fue exclusively and the trained eye can EASILY see the spotted area. He could probably still pull it off against the ignorant public, but it's definitely visible.

[MikeTheDane]

Originally posted by Julius:

What do others think is best for a shaved look to the rcipient area fue or fut?

 

I haven't seen any evidence of fue having harsher qualities for the hairline. Since grafts can be damaged during the process it isn't an unthinkable scenario, but I have nothing conclusive to back it up.

 

But if you're going specifically for the shaved look, why would you pick fut? Isn't the point to avoid a detectable scar?

[Stingray]

Julius

 

With regard to the recipient area it should not make a difference whether it is FUE or FUT as the difference in the two techniques only applies to the extraction method not the implantation.

 

With FUT you would not be able to have a shaved look anyway as you would have a large strip scar at the back of your head.

[Julius]

I was thinking of getting a tattoo over the donor scar if I go strip. I know fut gives a better yield and that the number of fue grafts available maxes out before strip. Thus, strip sounds the better option. What you say makes sense stingray but the feedback I have been getting from forum members who have visited patients of fue and fut is that patients who have fut have the superior results even on patients who have the same loss and grafts used to treat it. Possibly because yield is better or more grafts are available via fut I am not sure.

[scar5]

Julius,

I am not a believer in a lot of the stuff that clinics say about FUE. I think that clinics generally undervalue the donor potential of FUE and overvalue the yield. In other words, more than 2500 -3000 are available from an average virgin scalp, but the yield figures of 95% (that I hear from 'famous' clinics is dodgy. I think that planning strip plus tattoo over the scar is not a smart plan. Moreover, I think that having strip and planning to FUE in the scar is just as bad. I am currently researching tattoos and I believe that color changing is not as bad a problem as often assumed if good inks are used, however definition loss (or blurring) is really an issue and still a red flag. The FUE world in a technical sense (never mind the spin) is in flux at the moment. We have a variety of tools and protocols. We have a lot a dodgy claims and yet we have a promising technique that gives balding guys the option to buzz or even shave if a change of plans is necessary. Strip yields are good, but there is a dirty side to strip that gets passed too. Regarding orientation, yes, the hairs should be aligned the same way, but they frequently are not. we are often told that it is just a matter of the hair settling. But anyone who has sat in the chair knows that the amount of time the tech has to orientate each graft is small. This has nothing to do with sit angle. But I concur, a couple of buzzed strip results I have seen look pretty damn good in this respect.

[Julius]

I think that having strip and planning to FUE in the scar is just as bad

Why?

I really want to believe in fue but the proof is just not there for people with significant loss. I need 2500 grafts but the two best fue doctors Shapiro and Feller both recommended fut for me even though they would make more out of me from fue. If fue was all it was cracked up to be I think H&W would be doing it. The top clinics don't do over 2500 fue and I am not going to base all my expectations on Stephen when I know he has remarkable characteristics. Feller readily admits that a greater yield comes from fut. Apparently Spex was told by Feller if he needs any more work it would have to be fut and he is the showcase. Fue probably is the future but the lack of fue document (over 2000 grafts) in an industry full of sharks is seriously disconcerting. Moreover I have seen fue 'shockers' from even the best, but at least the patient can shave it all off. I don't really want to undergo the tattoo route it's more of a plan B. Also keep your eye on justdoits result he had 1995 fue grafts from Shapiro

Cheers

[scar5]

Julius,

Don't lose faith in FUE. Don't read too much into stories about Spex being told FUT bla bla.

 

Think about the reasons why composite clinics have a vested interest in keeping strip as the prime generator of income and FUE for boutique purposes or specilaist purposes. Dr. Feller is his worst enemy in this respect - and beleive it or not, I respect him immensely as a doctor, and as a commentator - he openly admits that FUE is a pain in the #%s. I can't tell you enough, do not lose faith in FUE as a technique that offers you a realistic chance to have it both ways as the unpredictable nature of balding and drug treatment plays out on your scalp and your body. Shapiro has to be commended for taking on FUE. Again H&W's PR about,, 'we don't do FUE because we wanna offer value to our patients bla bla" well, take that with a grain of salt. THere is no doubt these clinics produce great strip results, so to Bisanga, who will also offeryou strip at a heart beat and so too armani in their strip days. The FUE into the strip scar is an understandable but dodgy rationaization. You just can't get the texture to match if you wanna buzz. sure, if you grow out, it can improve your situation, just as tattoos can. But if you are talking about a longer hair sceanario then the whole discussion is mute, might as well get strip and pray you don't end up like me in my late 30s, when I realized I wanted to buzz afterall due to progressive loss 15 years after my first HT

[TheEmperor]

There really isnt that much donor. What I have found from my strip surgeries is that the hair has to come from somewhere. This means one of two things. A) The skin is stretched locally to the incision, thinning out the area around the scar. B) The scalp is moved and stretched over its entire surface, making the bald area larger. I believe it is a combination.

 

Neither possibility is appealing. The point is that while it may *seem* that there is alot of donor hair, when you start taking it from the back, things start to thin out, or you may find your bald areas expanding.

 

That said, the estimate of 6-8K grafts MAX for your average patient is realistic, and I dont care what Norwood you are. The area around the scar will thin out until is will look bad. Only guys with really dense donor and coarse hair will be able to pull off shaving to (say) a #4.

 

If what Feller says about donor scarring with FUE is true, then a patient has even less grafts availble with FUE. An 7K grafts is not quite enough to give NW4+ guys a full head of hair. They will always be wanting. They may get to a place where they have coverage with recession, and can make it look good with products and styling.

 

That said, MAXIMIZING grafts and yield is the primary consideration. Strip should be the first option, although once stripped out, FUE should be considered as an adjunct. A patient who is stripped out may be able to build density with FUE (either scalp or body hair).

 

For those guys who will never progress beyond a NW3, FUE may be the ticket. But then it may not be. Given the hit-or-miss nature of FUE, I would not want to be the guy who got a 3K FUE procedure with sparse growth, knowing that had he gone to H&W, he would have a good result and be finished. I dont think the FUE yield concerns are propaganda.

[Julius]

knowing that had he gone to H&W, he would have a good result and be finished

This is my feeling at the moment, but I still want to buzz to a #2 or #1. I know this is not really possible with strip, so I would need fue into the scar anyway which is no guarantee of achieving this, though I do know of two guys who are able to shave to a #1 now because of it. Now due to such a large amount of loss, the doctors on this forum will probably not do fue for me as I do not have enough grafts available via this method. I would be taking a risk with a doctor who is not recommended here using a technique where there is little documentation of successful on cases over 2500 grafts. I want fue to be the holy grail of hair loss, but I am not seeing the results. I have even though of trying a radical fue ht procedure were I would have a whole area balded by fue and a tattoo placed there but neither Feller or Shapiro's reps even deemed it worthy of a reply. It seems with what I want and the amount of loss I have I am stuck between a rock and a hard place with fut and fue. Any suggestions?

Sorry to hear about your experience Scar5.

I was recently sort of warned off fue by a guy on this very forum who has had 7 fue sessions so far from dr jones, he who cannot be named from Australia, cole and Feller, and has to angle his hair down so it does not look so pluggy, he also said the results always look better in pictures than in person.