No, the hairmill defense of "Looked at all the people he didn't botch" is not an excuse to ignore corroborated evidence of poor medical practices by a doctor. My response to Melvin's reply in my original thread.

[Wallaby_Upstairs]

This thread will only cover a small part of Melvin's reply to me, which I feel are relevant to the HRN community.

Melvin wanted to discussion of my original thread to continue in one in a poll, but what I really like about that other thread is that it's the HRN's community time to shine, I do not wish to put my full response to Melvin there.

https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/66990-should-we-remove-dr-diep/page/2/#comments

In fact, I'm not even sure if there's interest in my full response. I think the current results of the poll speaks to the persuasiveness of his reply. I don't think there's interest for that on here, though if Melvin prefers to continue the discussion here, I would be more than happy to do it here. But I figure a better would be on Melvin and HRN's subreddit.

https://old.reddit.com/r/hairtransplantnetwork/comments/zo6evz/response_to_melvins_reply_for_im_a_mod_for/?

Where Melvin is the moderator and has full control over the discussion. I do hope he continued the discussion, because I want to give my reader's the more accurate description possible, and that includes HRN's leadership giving their most thorough explication.

Besides that Melvin probably has some strong feelings about the way in which I pressured him into listening to his community, I have strong feelings for him about the way he treats his community. But despite our differences, it is in the hair transplant community's best interest that we work together. I will always send people on my subreddit to HRN because of their outstanding community and corpus of independent reviews. There are a few issues that I feel our subreddit could use HRN's help, particularly hairmill astroturfing. On reddit we don't have access to IP/Cookie info. HRN does. They were able to stamp out hairmill astroturfing with ease. Their post about Vera Clinic greatly informed my intuition about what's happening in our own subreddit.

A long time ago, JT and Pat had some sort of community divorce. They couldn't put their differences aside for the sake of the community. JT has a list of forums on his website that does not include the biggest corpus of independent reviews, to the detriment of his followers. Anyone on their hair transplant journey absolutely has a right to know about this website on their transplant journey. Perhaps if Joe and Pat kept stronger ties and provided insights about each other, Joe wouldn't have included ASMED on his list and HRN would have removed Diep a long time ago.

I hope our communities' leadership can find a way to help each other . At the very least, there will always be a one-sided reach out and direction towards them on my end.

---

And now for selected points that Melvin brought up which I think are relevant to the HRN community so I'll address them here.

First, I would like to point out that Melvin didn't reply to what was the foundation of my post, the disturbing medical practices of Dr Diep that were corroborated by multiple people in their independent reviews. There would no mention of him using very young and inexperienced technicians. And the latest review of Dr Diep, the 20 year old, was absolutely botched by every objective definition of the term.  But I don't think there is a way to defend this, and it's why the overwhelming super majority of HRN's community is calling for Diep to be removed.

For the points that he did bring up: (All Quotes are from Melvin in the original thread)

Thank you for providing additional information on @baldlivesmatter I got it wrong, this was a failure on my part and I apologize, and like everything else you posted this will be included. I see that he specifically defended you. In addition to your comments, I apologized to him in the other thread, and I'm apologizing again here right now. I hope to also include his perspective in my post if he grants permission.

Quote

>That is why we have a  recommendation process, which includes the input of our entire community.  Every other list on the internet is added by one person like Spencer or Tillman, not a collective community. It is not one person approving any surgeon.

However, community input is not taken into consideration anymore in your recommendation process

https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/65512-your-input-requested-regarding-the-potential-recommendation-of-dr-christina-vryonidou-hdc-clinic/#comment-668445

You had the 2:1 majority who wanted more independent reviews, 1 of the 2 people for her nomination only had 13 comments for a 3.5 month old account at the time, and the feedback period was just over 5 days before Melvin declared that she's been added. It is absolutely you just adding people now.

Quote

>You mentioned Spencer Kobren and the Bald Truth, Spencer is the one making millions of dollars per year with no transparency, not HRN. I bet you don't even know that negative threads aren't public on Bald Truth Talk forum, if you have a negative complaint the thread is moved to a 'private' section.

Only for revenue estimates. Believe me, I have my own issues with them. Their recommended list should come with a disclaimer their surgeons are sponsored. Quite frankly, yours should too. It's not enough to provide a link to where it says that. Not everyone will end up there, and the fact that your doctors are sponsors is one of the most important pieces of information people need to know before seeing your list. And I just took a look at your link

https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/tips-on-hair-restoration-physicians

No where does it say that your physicians are sponsored. I strongly believe that people have a right to know all financial biases for any advice given, and that this information should be front-loaded, clear and present. These disclosures are so important that they are rules 2 and 3 on my subreddit

Quote

>I am not paid by any surgeon, that is not a lie. I am paid by Pat whether a surgeon is on the recommended list or not.  I am paid by Pat the owner of this site. I am not paid nor have I ever been compensated by any surgeon. I have never omitted the fact that I am paid for my time.

Well, now I am paraphrasing the passage to you just responded, but responding with 'I am not paid by any surgeon' when financial biases are brought up gives an impression that you are not paid. You did omit that you were paid for your time when you replied to that person and banned him.

Quote

>There is no surgeon that gets it right every time.

There's a reason why this is popular defense hairmills like to use. There is a difference between an ethical and skilled surgeon doing the best to their ability with a salaried staff that has been thoroughly vetted & trained and works with the surgeon day in and day out yet turns out to have a low yield for factors outside their control, and Dr Diep who your own community provided multiple instances of less than ideal medical practices including using brand new techs. 'There is no surgeon that gets it right every time.' is no reason to ignore his very flawed medical practices. I wrote a lengthy post on this subject on my subreddit if anyone is interested , it's titled "The type of risks you take when going to a mill, and the damage done even if it looks alright 1 year post."

Quote

>When you examine a surgeons body of work, you need to examine it as a whole.

Hairmills like to use this logic too. For many of them, despite their shortcuts and unethical practices, they work out most of the time. Getting hairtransplant shouldn't be like playing Russian Roulette. If you like I wrote a more detailed post on my subreddit titled 'The type of risks you take when going to a mill, and the damage done even if it looks alright 1 year post.' for more info. Any surgeon worthy of any recommended list should have a permanent staff to ensure consistency. Not only does Diep use contract techs, by the testimonies of your own community, he uses entry-level techs. This is not 2nd hand information, this is first hand information from your own community.

Quote

>I have always stated that my opinions are just that, opinions. I am one person, HRN is a collective community.

Unfortunately do to the status of your modship, and your ability to lock threads that you deem unworthy of further discussion, you have a huge influence on the tone of the discussion, which is unfortunate because I find your community to be very intelligent and empathetic. Look at the replies in the original thread and in the poll. The vast super majority is calling for his removal.

 

Quote

>I would expect Wallaby to post this reply with all of the relevant threads that have been shared, so his community can also draw their own conclusions, separate from his opinion.

Absolutely. The invite will be always open to provide your perspective on the facts and opinions presented in my post.

[ITA]

@Wallaby_Upstairs it seems to me that you are harassing a bit too much @Melvin- Moderator, he did a survey and therefore the community will decide whether or not to remove Diep from the list of surgeons recommended on HRN, for me what he is doing is more than enough.  But you, have you ever been on other forums, apart from this one and the one where you are the moderator?  Try going to the Italian one, where Asmed is passed off as one of the best clinics in the world, your account, your posts, would have lasted 20 seconds, immediately canceled and your IP address blocked forever, in practice you would never have plus the ability to write a comma, so I'd say you could end it here now.

[Wallaby_Upstairs]

Update: I'm not sure how Melvin feels about me, but I certainly hope we can collaborate and help each other out where we see common ground. I own another subreddit /r/HairTransplantation I sent Melvin's reddit account an invite for modship. Perhaps neutral ground will be the best place for any possible work together. The invite will always be open.

As for my participation on this forum, I don't believe I'll continue much longer, if at all. Like the poll thread, I feel it's the HRN's community time to shine.

Like I mentioned, I'll engage with Melvin on his own subreddit, /r/hairtransplantnetwork/ and hopefully a possible collaborative one on /r/HairTransplantation

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, Wallaby_Upstairs said:

Only for revenue estimates. Believe me, I have my own issues with them. Their recommended list should come with a disclaimer their surgeons are sponsored. Quite frankly, yours should too. It's not enough to provide a link to where it says that. Not everyone will end up there, and the fact that your doctors are sponsors is one of the most important pieces of information people need to know before seeing your list. And I just took a look at your link

https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/tips-on-hair-restoration-physicians

No where does it say that your physicians are sponsored. I strongly believe that people have a right to know all financial biases for any advice given, and that this information should be front-loaded, clear and present. These disclosures are so important that they are rules 2 and 3 on my subreddit

Our website states that physicians sponsor our community, I’ve also created a thread, and posted this screenshot several times. It’s common knowledge in our community. We also state that our list isn’t definitive and encourage everyone to DO their own research. How much more transparent can we be?

 

Our recommendation process is listed below with this disclaimer. 
⬇️
https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/our-hair-restoration-physicians

[Melvin- Admin]

35 minutes ago, Wallaby_Upstairs said:

Update: I'm not sure how Melvin feels about me, but I certainly hope we can collaborate and help each other out where we see common ground. I own another subreddit /r/HairTransplantation I sent Melvin's reddit account an invite for modship. Perhaps neutral ground will be the best place for any possible work together. The invite will always be open.

As for my participation on this forum, I don't believe I'll continue much longer, if at all. Like the poll thread, I feel it's the HRN's community time to shine.

Like I mentioned, I'll engage with Melvin on his own subreddit, /r/hairtransplantnetwork/ and hopefully a possible collaborative one on /r/HairTransplantation

I appreciate the olive branch, personally, I think working together is always better. I simply don’t have the time to moderate other communities but I appreciate the offer. I would appreciate working together in the future, and if you have any disagreements with me or something I do, feel free to send me a private message. Those who know me, know that I’m reasonable, my ideas and perspectives are fluid, never set in stone. 

[Wallaby_Upstairs]

Hey Melvin, I am not sure how to get to https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/our-hair-restoration-physicians

The link to your top right is your recommended list, where it says 'FORUM RECOMMENDED SURGEONS'

https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/best-hair-transplant-surgeons

And then there's a link where it says Learn how they are recommended. and goes to https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/tips-on-hair-restoration-physicians

My feedback is for the recommendation page [ https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/our-hair-restoration-physicians ] to say something like 'note, the Physicians pay a fee for sponsorship' or something like that, and then a link to the one you posted [ https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physician/our-hair-restoration-physicians ] instead of the current link on there

Even thought the sponsorship is common knowledge in your community, I think it's best to keep in mind people who are just starting out on the journey, and this forum can feeling like drinking from a fire hose. They may not ever come across your thread, there's just too much to learn.

I think with the design I proposed that'll make the financial contribution front loaded, clear, and transparent. What do you think?

Heads up, I think I only have 2 more comments left on my current 6 comment limit.

 

Just now, Melvin- Moderator said:

I appreciate the olive branch, personally, I think working together is always better. I simply don’t have the time to moderate other communities but I appreciate the offer. I would appreciate working together in the future, and if you have any disagreements with me or something I do, feel free to send me a private message. Those who know me, know that I’m reasonable, my ideas and perspectives are fluid, never set in stone. 

Amazing!!! The subreddit doesn't have to be a brand new community. It could be where we post intel or something to help each other out, like hair mill astroturfing, or a certain road rage inclined 'not a surgeon' (I saw the threads)

[Doron Harati]

@Melvin- Moderator

helped me personally as a botched patient before I became coordinator and others that I know of without a profit, I have no doubts that with teamwork, the public will only benefit for the best.