Except HDC and Dr. Bicer, what my other options arround 3€/graft?

[Harry2]

Hi.

32.8 y/o with NW-5A to NW6 baldness

My options on table are Dr Bicer Turkey and HDC Cyprus.

Both takes 2.5€/graft which leads me to 10K€ for 4000 grafts session (and I need two sessions according HDC's and Dr Bicer's examination).

I see recommendations on these clinics but all of them when their prices were lower (1.5€-2€).

So my question is, do you guys think for 2.5€ these clinics are still a good options? They worth the 2.5€? And if not, and if I'm standing on 10K€/session, any other good clinics with 3€-3.5€/graft cost? But this clinics should me *much better* since it adds almost 4000€ per session

 

TIA

Edited August 14, 2022 by Harry2
Title

[asterix0]

I would save up some more $ and go for HDC

[mister_25]

I am not including budget/location in my assessments I'm just including what I've been impressed by in the NW5-6 range

I will also mention that these high norwoods I would not skimp out and go on a budget. Maybe Norwood 5 if they are top budget options but even then if your a Norwood 5 that means that you have a large amount of thin/bald area to cover.

Norwood 5 / Norwood 5A - H&W, Mwamba, Bisanga, Ferreira, Freitas, Nader, Eugenix

I honestly believe that if you are Norwood 6 you have to eliminate concerns on budget/geography and go with a doctor that has a strong portfolio of that range. 

Norwood 6 - Zarev (need more cases, but still very impressed by those results) Sethi, Pitella

HDC has done some impressive work on here as well.

 

[Harry2]

7 hours ago, asterix0 said:

I would save up some more $ and go for HDC

@asterix0 sorry, what does it mean "more"? HDC is one of the current options

[Harry2]

6 hours ago, mister_25 said:

I am not including budget/location in my assessments I'm just including what I've been impressed by in the NW5-6 range

I will also mention that these high norwoods I would not skimp out and go on a budget. Maybe Norwood 5 if they are top budget options but even then if your a Norwood 5 that means that you have a large amount of thin/bald area to cover.

Norwood 5 / Norwood 5A - H&W, Mwamba, Bisanga, Ferreira, Freitas, Nader, Eugenix

I honestly believe that if you are Norwood 6 you have to eliminate concerns on budget/geography and go with a doctor that has a strong portfolio of that range. 

Norwood 6 - Zarev (need more cases, but still very impressed by those results) Sethi, Pitella

HDC has done some impressive work on here as well.

 

@mister_25 You said to ignore geographic location (ok) and budget (hard to do that when your money is limited), but you also say HDC is fine for this level of baldness (regardless their price which is less than all the clinics you mentioned). So I understand from you that no need to multiple my budget and search another options and stay with my current option?

If I understand you incorrectly, please explain.

Btw, for 2.5€/graft with this NW class, HDC is prefer over Dr. Bicer? Because I saw nice work of her as well.

[mister_25]

47 minutes ago, Harry2 said:

@mister_25 You said to ignore geographic location (ok) and budget (hard to do that when your money is limited), but you also say HDC is fine for this level of baldness (regardless their price which is less than all the clinics you mentioned). So I understand from you that no need to multiple my budget and search another options and stay with my current option?

If I understand you incorrectly, please explain.

Btw, for 2.5€/graft with this NW class, HDC is prefer over Dr. Bicer? Because I saw nice work of her as well.

Limiting yourself to Geography and Budget is a sure way to really remove the potential clinics that could be most suitable for your case.

For example I am from Australia. If I limited myself and said "I don't care how much I spend, but I want to do it in my home country" I would be setting myself for disaster due to Australia having zero good doctors/clinics

The opposite is "I'm willing to go anywhere, but I don't want to spend more than a certain amount" then you are really cutting out a lot of good and reputable clinics. The best clinics/surgeons have a lot of demand, and for them to meet this demand they have to up their prices to filter out the ones that can and the ones that can't. When a Clinic/Surgeon extends their reach and says "I can do 10+ patients a day" the demand goes down, but the quality also drops. No reasonable doctor can manage over 10 patients a day and that fits hairmill territory. Hence the chances of things like donor damage, permanent shock loss, overharvesting, bad angles, multis in hairline is higher due to the doctor having less and less involvement in a surgery.

Turkey in particular is a minefield. There are many clinics that will use false advertising, steal other clinics results and will do anything to close in a sale. Not close in a successful hair transplant. Bicer is one of the only good options in Turkey, but I don't think her skill range is Norwood 5. From my observations she works well in Norwood 2-4 range.

HDC is a good clinic, but there are others that might suit your particular characteristics. Bisanga for example Is skilled in Norwood 5s and is known for working with blonde hair recently. Therefore he would be the most suitable for a Norwood 5 with Fine Blonde hair.

In my opinion this "game" is all about finding the right clinic for your situation.

You should do your own research on HDC. I was impressed by Dorons result on this forum as he was a high difficulty repair patient that has a suitable head of hair now. But I haven't seen too much on HDC otherwise so I didn't include them on my Norwood 5 recommendations. That's my personal observations, I can't recommend something when I am uncertain on what I am recommending (in this case, HDC).

Keep in mind that no one is imposing a budget on you, its a more "how much do I want my hair back". You add more money to your budget and do your research you are increasing the chances of the surgery being a success (regarding you picking a good clinic/surgeon). 

Norwood 5 - Norwood 5As have a chance to get a strong set of hair on their head again, but they have to do it right from the beginning. Norwood 6s might need to accept a reality that they wont be able to get a full head of hair again if they have poor donor. But they can get something but only if they go to a specialist. This is why I would reccomend more elite clinics/surgeons. If you were a Norwood 2-3 you could go for "cheaper but still good" options because you would need less grafts, you don't want to compromise your donor for future baldness still.

I personally believe that the higher Norwood you are, the higher difficulty the surgery becomes. More planning to get more out of your donor while still keeping it visually unchanged whilst getting the most out of less. If that makes any sense.

Edited August 14, 2022 by mister_25
fixed a sentence that made no sense.

[Harry2]

8 minutes ago, mister_25 said:

Limiting yourself to Geography and Budget is a sure way to really narrow down the potential clinics that could be most suitable for your case.

For example I am from Australia. If I limited myself and said "I don't care how much I spend, but I want to do it in my home country" I would be setting myself for disaster due to Australia having zero good doctors/clinics

The opposite is "I'm willing to go anywhere, but I don't want to spend more than a certain amount" then you are really cutting out a lot of good and reputable clinics. The best clinics/surgeons have a lot of demand, and for them to meet this demand they have to up their prices to filter out the ones that can and the ones that can't. When a Clinic/Surgeon extends their reach and says "I can do 10+ patients a day" the demand goes down, but the quality also drops. No reasonable doctor can manage over 10 patients a day and that fits hairmill territory. Hence the chances of things like donor damage, permanent shock loss, overharvesting, bad angles, multis in hairline is higher due to the doctor having less and less involvement in a surgery.

Turkey in particular is a minefield. There are many clinics that will use false advertising, steal other clinics results and will do anything to close in a sale. Not close in a successful hair transplant. Bicer is one of the only good options in Turkey, but I don't think her skill range is Norwood 5. From my observations she works well in Norwood 2-4 range.

HDC is a good clinic, but there are others that might suit your particular characteristics. Bisanga for example Is skilled in Norwood 5s and is known for working with blonde hair recently. Therefore he would be the most suitable for a Norwood 5 with Fine Blonde hair.

In my opinion this "game" is all about finding the right clinic for your situation.

You should do your own research on HDC. I was impressed by Dorons result on this forum as he was a high difficulty repair patient that has a suitable head of hair now. But I haven't seen too much on HDC otherwise so I didn't include them on my Norwood 5 recommendations. That's my personal observations, I can't recommend something when I am uncertain on what I am recommending (in this case, HDC).

Keep in mind that no one is imposing a budget on you, its a more "how much do I want my hair back". You add more money to your budget and do your research you are increasing the chances of the surgery being a success (regarding you picking a good clinic/surgeon). 

Norwood 5 - Norwood 5As have a chance to get a strong set of hair on their head again, but they have to do it right from the beginning. Norwood 6s might need to accept a reality that they wont be able to get a full head of hair again if they have poor donor. But they can get something but only if they go to a specialist. This is why I would reccomend more elite clinics/surgeons. If you were a Norwood 2-3 you could go for "cheaper but still good" options because you would need less grafts, you don't want to compromise your donor for future baldness still.

I personally believe that the higher Norwood you are, the higher difficulty the surgery becomes. More planning to get more out of your donor while still keeping it visually unchanged whilst getting the most out of less. If that makes any sense.

@mister_25 the question is, what is really the different between clinics that makes one clinic to handle better a high NW session than other clinc? They both recieve the same donor area and amount of available grafts. No one do a magic and create grafts out of nowhere.

About Dr Bicer, I saw Eran Efrat result which is incredible! He looks liks 5A-6 NW (all other impressive results were on lower NW indeed). 

HDC have good results as well but few for high NW (similarly to Bicer)

[mister_25]

23 minutes ago, Harry2 said:

@mister_25 the question is, what is really the different between clinics that makes one clinic to handle better a high NW session than other clinc?

Surgeons skill/experience in that range. Couto gets a lot of a hype on this forum and others as this up and coming great but all the transplants I see are on Norwood 2-4s Rarely Norwood 5s. I haven't been able to find a Norwood 6 case of Couto. He has a excellent track record with people in that range and is able to make the transplanted hair of a Norwood 3 blend in almost seamlessly with the natural hair.

When you are Norwood 6 you become a incredibly difficult case. Your crown becomes quite large and it actually dips into the donor area of someone with a Norwood 3/4 as a final pattern. This means you need to produce "more with less" or use alternate resources such as Beard/Body Hair. Experts in Beard/Body hair often are experts in higher Norwood's due to using beard/body hair is only really necessary in higher Norwood cases.

Consider this, Transplanting into a Norwood 3 has a large amount of native hair, the difficulty would be to not damage native hair, so they avoid the native hair (which is probably quite dense and doesnt need a transplant in that area) and rebuild the corners at a density that's adequate enough to blend in well with the native. There is no concern really that the Donor Capabilities wont be able to match the recipient zone unless you had one of the worst cases of DUPA ever.

Now consider this, a slick bald Norwood 5. You will need to rebuild from scratch a Hairline, Frontal Third, Midscalp and Crown and maybe even reinforce temple points depending on how far gone they are. Sure the difficulty of damaging native hair is not there due it being almost non existent. But you also need to produce "more with less". You won't be able to get 100grafts/cm2 everywhere unless you exhaust over 10000+ grafts. Even though 100grafts/cm2 isn't necessary you get my point. You want to enable the most success for your hair transplant cause Norwood 5s can get a good set of hair back, but they don't get any second chances like their lower Norwood counterparts. The difficulty is getting it right the first time and to rebuild a large area with available grafts.

Now look at a Norwood 6 case. Always considered a high difficulty case and always the best results are seen at Eugenix, Zarev, Pitella, H&W, Bisanga and Mwamba and other elite doctors. Its because they've developed the experience in these high difficulty cases. Hair mills can create great results that we've seen, especially in lower Norwood's (2-4) but I've never seen a hair mill do a recovery like Zoomster or HugoX before. Its simply a experience and skill issue.

The difficulty of Norwood 6s is that the donor can't possibly ever meet the demand of the top so you have to work with strong illusions where there are so many variables at play to create these strong illusions. Doctors that have the required skills of Norwood 6 understand this more than the doctors that mainly work on Norwood 2-4s. Its a completely different ball game. Norwood 2-4s have to "work with the native hair". Norwood 6-7s have to "rebuild from scratch with minimal resources to make it look like you never lost hair to begin with, or lost a minimal amount".

23 minutes ago, Harry2 said:

They both recieve the same donor area and amount of available grafts.

Patient A can have a average of 80 grafts cm/2 in their donor zone, Patient B can have the exact same area and have 105 grafts cm/2 in their donor zone. Patient A + B have the exact same hair caliber and characteristics. Patient B can get more grafts out cause his donor is more dense.

Not one patients donor is the same. There are many factors to consider that alter how much you can get out of a donor area. Retrograde Alopecia reduces your donor due to thinning above the ears and at the nape. DUPA is a whole other story. Donor density plays a factor but even so hair characteristics. Sometimes people with fine hair need double the amount of grafts for the same area as a patient with coarser hair. Some people have larger heads so if they get FUT their strip can be longer hence more grafts. People with larger heads also have more balding area, hence more grafts needed.

There are many factors that determine a a good, poor, great, average donor. Not one donor is the same.

Edited August 14, 2022 by mister_25
difficulty.

[LookMaxx]

6 hours ago, Harry2 said:

@mister_25 the question is, what is really the different between clinics that makes one clinic to handle better a high NW session than other clinc? They both recieve the same donor area and amount of available grafts. No one do a magic and create grafts out of nowhere.

About Dr Bicer, I saw Eran Efrat result which is incredible! He looks liks 5A-6 NW (all other impressive results were on lower NW indeed). 

HDC have good results as well but few for high NW (similarly to Bicer)

Dr Bicer, Dr Turan are good. 

 

[asterix0]

8 hours ago, Harry2 said:

@asterix0 sorry, what does it mean "more"? HDC is one of the current options

Sorry, I misread your post and thought that your total budget was 3k.

[asterix0]

How good is your donor, would you mind posting photos?

Hattingen has also had some very good high Norwood results, but the price is higher.

Per their price chart, for a 4000 graft FUE mega session (you will likely need 6k+ for full coverage) that will run you about 18 thousand euro.

 

[Harry2]

51 minutes ago, asterix0 said:

How good is your donor, would you mind posting photos?

Hattingen has also had some very good high Norwood results, but the price is higher.

Per their price chart, for a 4000 graft FUE mega session (you will likely need 6k+ for full coverage) that will run you about 18 thousand euro.

 

My donor area before/after an haircut.

[Jackdaniels]

I would suggest you to look for dr turan, dr Gur and dr demirsoy in Turkey. I think they are better options than Hdc and they charge less. 

[asterix0]

Your case will be very tricky I think. I am not sure on a budget if I would recommend any surgeon, do some research for Norwood 6/7 cases on this forum and see whose results you like best.

[Melvin- Admin]

Never let cost dictate your choice. Go by results first and foremost. Use our list as a starting point for research.

https://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/best-hair-transplant-surgeons

[A Fue Good Men]

Personally I’d choose Dr. Bisangas Greek clinic over hdc or bicer. I’d verify if bisanga has some oversight though as I’m not 100% sure on all the details 

[RTC]

36 minutes ago, 5BetaReductase said:

Personally I’d choose Dr. Bisangas Greek clinic over hdc or bicer. I’d verify if bisanga has some oversight though as I’m not 100% sure on all the details 

I don't anticipate he does, isn't he full time in Brussels?

[A Fue Good Men]

34 minutes ago, RTC said:

I don't anticipate he does, isn't he full time in Brussels?

I’ve read different things through the last couple years. I’ve heard he helps with oversight but at the same time I feel like Dr. Kostis has enough experience now that he may be on his own. Maybe @Raphael84or @sl can help clarify?

[Gramatik]

27 minutes ago, 5BetaReductase said:

I’ve read different things through the last couple years. I’ve heard he helps with oversight but at the same time I feel like Dr. Kostis has enough experience now that he may be on his own. Maybe @Raphael84or @sl can help clarify?

As i can see from the official site of BHR Athens Clinic, there are three other different doctors except of Dr Bisanga and Dr Kostis. So maybe these doctors do the surgeries in BHR Athens.

Look the link below:

https://bhrclinicathens.com/our-doctors/

Edited August 14, 2022 by Gramatik

[sl]

Thank you for the tag. Dr.Kostis, although Greek, is fully part of our Brussels clinic and with his own patients. He has been with us for approximately 3 years and has been trained exclusively and worked alongside Dr.Bisanga from his inception and proficient with all of the BHR Clinic protocols that Dr.Bisanga has developed. Patients can have either doctor or even a shared surgery option. He does not perform surgery in Athens but exclusively in Brussels. 

Here is the link to his profile that will give some more information:-

https://bhrclinic.com/dr-konstantinos-lampropoulos/

If anyone would like for a consultation with him then please contact us at info@bhrclinic.com for a timely reply or contact @Raphael84 who will be able to assist you. 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by sl

[Harry2]

15 hours ago, asterix0 said:

Your case will be very tricky I think. I am not sure on a budget if I would recommend any surgeon, do some research for Norwood 6/7 cases on this forum and see whose results you like best.

@asterix0Why tricky ?

 

15 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Never let cost dictate your choice. Go by results first and foremost. Use our list as a starting point for research.

https://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/best-hair-transplant-surgeons

@Melvin- Moderator
I talked yesterday to Eugenix and I didn't like their exemination.
They said I am NW4 (how...?) and recommend for only 1 session with 4500-4700 grafts.
3000 for hairline + front/middle and the remaining grafts for the crown.
3200 grafts will take from scalp and 1500 from beard.

HDC + Dr Bicer on the other hand, recommended for two sessions, 3500-4000 grafts for hairline + front/middle.
and one year later, a 2nd session, for crown (say 2500-3500 grafts).
and both said *maybe* grafts from beard will be necessary for 2nd session. 
so what should I understand from it?

Edited August 15, 2022 by Harry2

[asterix0]

2 hours ago, Harry2 said:

@asterix0Why tricky ?

 

@Melvin- Moderator
I talked yesterday to Eugenix and I didn't like their exemination.
They said I am NW4 (how...?) and recommend for only 1 session with 4500-4700 grafts.
3000 for hairline + front/middle and the remaining grafts for the crown.
3200 grafts will take from scalp and 1500 from beard.

HDC + Dr Bicer on the other hand, recommended for two sessions, 3500-4000 grafts for hairline + front/middle.
and one year later, a 2nd session, for crown (say 2500-3500 grafts).
and both said *maybe* grafts from beard will be necessary for 2nd session. 
so what should I understand from it?

Because when buzzed done your donor is showing some signs of miniaturization which cause doctors to turn you down. 

[Harry2]

1 minute ago, asterix0 said:

Because when buzzed done your donor is showing some signs of miniaturization which cause doctors to turn you down. 

Dr. Bicer + HDC + Eugenix aware this. they saw the same pics.

what do you mean by  "turn me down"?

[GoliGoliGoli]

If you are willing to travel, Nader in Reynosa Mexico is a great option. He doesn't do price per graft, he has packages that get increasingly less expensive as the graft count increases. So as far as cost it's a really great option for folks like us who need a higher graft #. 

[asterix0]

11 hours ago, Harry2 said:

Dr. Bicer + HDC + Eugenix aware this. they saw the same pics.

what do you mean by  "turn me down"?

Turn you down as in not accept you as a patient because you are not a good candidate for a transplant.