2500 (maybe?) FUT results after 11 months - need opinions

[callmebob2021]

Just about a year ago I had a FUT transplant. Would love to get y'alls opinion on how you think my Doctor did. I won't divulge who my Dr is until after I have my one year review meeting with him in a couple of weeks. But would love to get your take on how you think my dr did and what follow up questions / actions I should ask him.

Here are some details:

• The Dr. told me I was a Norwood 3, requiring 2,500 grafts. He strongly recommended FUT. I also had consultation with a separate doctor (Dr. Diep) and he also recommended 2,500 grafts with FUT so I felt comfortable with going with that recommendation.
   
• On the day I came in for the apt, during the initial consultation and drawing of the new hairline, doctor said I would likely lose all of the hair I had in the "peninsula" of hair growing at the top/front of my head and also said I would require a 2nd transplant. These things may be true regardless of which doctor I saw, but I did feel it was a little shady telling me this info so "late in the game" (after I'd travelled there and taken calming drugs).    
   
• My doctor's office (US based) and staff were pretty professional. Doctor made the cut and stitch and made all the incisions. techs did the placement.
   
• I didn't count the incisions so don't know if I actually got 2,500 grafts. But the procedure didn't seem to last that long. I showed up at 10, did a dr consultation from 10 to 11, started procedure at 11, lunch from 1 - 1:45ish, done at 3:30. Does that sound right for 2,500 grafts? So I guess that would work out to ~14 grafts placed per minute: assuming 45min of incision and extraction then 3 hours of actually placing 2,500 grafts. There was no visible whiteboard showing hair counts and no mention of counts, which leads me to believe this whole "I had exactly 2,500 grafts" that other people/doctors are saying is a racket (I mean, how do you make a FUT cut that has exactly 2,500 grafts instead of, say 2,492 or 2,534, etc.) or my doctor is lazy at best or deceptive at worst.
   
• FUT scar is really not an issue. I think my doctor did a good job at minimizing it. It's not really visible unless I go below a 6 clipper guard at the top of the sides. I typically cut to a 6 clipper near the top and fade down to a 2 clipper at sides and rear and I feel it's not really noticeable

 

I'm still trying to come to an opinion on how well I think my doctor/techs did. Below is a before and 11 months after pic. I've seen a couple of examples of jobs I think were worse, but those were on folks with advanced Norwoods and bad donor areas. My doc said (and I'd tend to agree) that my donor area was great. I've seen a lot of examples here of jobs that were much better.

Thoughts on how well my doctor did and what I should ask/discuss at our one year review?

Thanks in advance.

 

p.s. FWIW, one of the techs commented on me having a lot of fluid coming out of the incision (serous exudate/discharge, which is typical for wounds/incisions I assume?) that she mention was popping out some incisions. She asked if I had I followed the no alcohol consumption guidelines, which was no drinking 3 days prior and which I had followed. But I did drink before that (4, 5 days prior). Not sure if this is a factor or not but wonder if others have heard of this. 

 

[digi23]

10 minutes ago, callmebob2021 said:

Just about a year ago I had a FUT transplant. Would love to get y'alls opinion on how you think my Doctor did. I won't divulge who my Dr is until after I have my one year review meeting with him in a couple of weeks. But would love to get your take on how you think my dr did and what follow up questions / actions I should ask him.

Here are some details:

• The Dr. told me I was a Norwood 3, requiring 2,500 grafts. He strongly recommended FUT. I also had consultation with a separate doctor (Dr. Diep) and he also recommended 2,500 grafts with FUT so I felt comfortable with going with that recommendation.
   
• On the day I came in for the apt, during the initial consultation and drawing of the new hairline, doctor said I would likely lose all of the hair I had in the "peninsula" of hair growing at the top/front of my head and also said I would require a 2nd transplant. These things may be true regardless of which doctor I saw, but I did feel it was a little shady telling me this info so "late in the game" (after I'd travelled there and taken calming drugs).    
   
• My doctor's office (US based) and staff were pretty professional. Doctor made the cut and stitch and made all the incisions. techs did the placement.
   
• I didn't count the incisions so don't know if I actually got 2,500 grafts. But the procedure didn't seem to last that long. I showed up at 10, did a dr consultation from 10 to 11, started procedure at 11, lunch from 1 - 1:45ish, done at 3:30. Does that sound right for 2,500 grafts? So I guess that would work out to ~14 grafts placed per minute: assuming 45min of incision and extraction then 3 hours of actually placing 2,500 grafts. There was no visible whiteboard showing hair counts and no mention of counts, which leads me to believe this whole "I had exactly 2,500 grafts" that other people/doctors are saying is a racket (I mean, how do you make a FUT cut that has exactly 2,500 grafts instead of, say 2,492 or 2,534, etc.) or my doctor is lazy at best or deceptive at worst.
   
• FUT scar is really not an issue. I think my doctor did a good job at minimizing it. It's not really visible unless I go below a 6 clipper guard at the top of the sides. I typically cut to a 6 clipper near the top and fade down to a 2 clipper at sides and rear and I feel it's not really noticeable

 

I'm still trying to come to an opinion on how well I think my doctor/techs did. Below is a before and 11 months after pic. I've seen a couple of examples of jobs I think were worse, but those were on folks with advanced Norwoods and bad donor areas. My doc said (and I'd tend to agree) that my donor area was great. I've seen a lot of examples here of jobs that were much better.

Thoughts on how well my doctor did and what I should ask/discuss at our one year review?

Thanks in advance.

 

p.s. FWIW, one of the techs commented on me having a lot of fluid coming out of the incision (serous exudate/discharge, which is typical for wounds/incisions I assume?) that she mention was popping out some incisions. She asked if I had I followed the no alcohol consumption guidelines, which was no drinking 3 days prior and which I had followed. But I did drink before that (4, 5 days prior). Not sure if this is a factor or not but wonder if others have heard of this. 

 

Looks like if you had 2500 grafts implanted about 10-20% grew. 

Unexperienced techs/Drs can have a difficult time dealing with popping. Also if you had popping going on there is basically impossible for the procedure to be that quick, it would take many more hours than normal if this occurs, that said 2500 grafts is not done that quickly normally anyway.

Do you have any post op photos of the newly implanted grafts? We can easily say if you were ripped off or not.

[Berba11]

Excess oozing is normal (I oozed a lot during my FUE 5.5 weeks ago), but it does slow things down significantly. I ended up having 2,762 grafts transplanted over two days rather than one. 
 

As far as I know, I was just oozing a lot but not ‘popping’ as you were. In either case, that does sound like everything was done very quickly. 
 

It’s very unlikely that having had a drink or two 4/5 days before had any impact so you’re not to blame for a poor result. 

[Britanium]

Doesn’t sound like you got 2500 grafts to me. Certainly from your before and after pics it would seem very few grew in. Can we have some more pics and information please ? Like your age and if your on Fin etc ? I understand you don’t want to divulge the name of your Dr/Clinic yet, but if you can after your yearly check up then that would really be of benefit. 
Like you say it’s very difficult to actually get a strip to produce 2.5k exactly, normally clinics will use more/less depending on what’s available after the strip is removed. 

[Britanium]

If it was a Bosley or chain type clinic then I wouldn’t be surprised with a poor outcome. Or one of the non recommended Drs/Clinic in your area. I know there is quite a few. 

[HappyMan2021]

You need a 2nd HT - 11 months is more than enough time to judge. Sorry, but if it makes you feel better only a very tiny minority of guys can get a way with 1 lifetime HT (even when results are good)

Regardless of if they really planted 2500 grafts or not, it looks like the yield of grafts that were implanted were really poor. 

I would not go back to this same clinic. Their method does not work for you. 

[callmebob2021]

Thanks for the quick feedback. Here's some more details:

• Dr is one whose name has been mentioned here previously. Not Bosley, although I know someone who did Bosley and I think they got better results than me quite frankly.
   
• I'm in my 50s. My hair was receding at temples for a long time, since my 20s, but noticed the "peninsula" of hair at the top/front thin which prompted action
   
• Fin for about 3 years, I think that's helped retain better. Prior to that, tried Minox for around 6 months, but made my head too itchy and didn't seem to give good results. Before and after fin pic is below

More pics below. Again, appreciate the comments/feedback ... especially your educated guesses to how many grafts it looks like I actually got (or that "took") and, if that number is significantly less than "2,500", your thoughts on why that might be.

 

[Britanium]

Damn 😦 a hell of a lot less than 2.5k grafts. Sorry but this work looks very poor. The work isn’t in any way refined and the density implanted wasn’t ever going to be possibly enough. I would be surprised if it was even 1ks worth of grafts. Wish I could be more positive here. How’s the FUT scar looking ? Any pics of that ? 

Edited January 5, 2022 by JC71

[callmebob2021]

One other note: I followed the pre- and post-op instructions to a tee:

• Slept sitting upright for 3 days - this was way easier to do than I thought it would be thanks to the hydrocodone  (post op said sleep upright for 1 day)
• No bending down/over or strenuous activity for for 5 months (post op said avoid for 14 days)
• No alcohol for 14 days after (post op didn't give advice on this)
• No sun on head for 5 months (post op said avoid for 14 days)
• No swimming in chlorine for 7 months (post op said avoid for 14 days)
• Didn't shower for 3 days, when I did shower, I did not put my head under the nozzel but poured water over my head as instructed
• Used the special shampoo the doctor sold me and used how he instructed ... i.e. pat on gently, pour water over head
• Used H2Ocean spray two times a day
• Didn't get haircut until 4 months post op

Since this was COVID/WFH times and I didn't have to go in public, I let the scabbing fall off naturally rather than pick at them or try to brush them off. So you can see scabs still on my head for a couple of weeks post op. Wonder if that may have been an issue.

 

 

[Britanium]

It was absolutely nothing you did post op, it’s a poor HT and they have most certainly not delivered in the graft count. I have a idea who it is looking at the pics. 

[DrMunibAhmad]

It's sad to say but this doesn't even look near to 300-500 grafts. 

 

I would ask for higher quality post op photos. I don't think the quality you uploaded here is the quality in what they took the photo's. 

Best of luck man. 

 

[Britanium]

3 minutes ago, DrMunibAhmad said:

It's sad to say but this doesn't even look near to 300-500 grafts. 

 

I would ask for higher quality post op photos. I don't think the quality you uploaded here is the quality in what they took the photo's. 

Best of luck man. 

 

Yeh I was trying to be generous in terms of grafts, but it’s very clear they didn’t do anything like what was planned. I hope the OP can show his FUT scar pics.

And searching for a positive, at least he should have more grafts available for a 2nd/better procedure. 

[digi23]

4 hours ago, callmebob2021 said:

Thanks for the quick feedback. Here's some more details:

• Dr is one whose name has been mentioned here previously. Not Bosley, although I know someone who did Bosley and I think they got better results than me quite frankly.
   
• I'm in my 50s. My hair was receding at temples for a long time, since my 20s, but noticed the "peninsula" of hair at the top/front thin which prompted action
   
• Fin for about 3 years, I think that's helped retain better. Prior to that, tried Minox for around 6 months, but made my head too itchy and didn't seem to give good results. Before and after fin pic is below

More pics below. Again, appreciate the comments/feedback ... especially your educated guesses to how many grafts it looks like I actually got (or that "took") and, if that number is significantly less than "2,500", your thoughts on why that might be.

 

Looks like probably 500 grafts or so, but the post op photos seems to have been taken with a potato so its difficult to see exact. Real fraudsters.

You should mention the Dr/clinic to help others to avoid scammers like these.

Edited January 5, 2022 by digi23

[Fue3361]

Since they’re in the US, I’d look for a refund after having your 1 year checkup.

 

Good chance they offer you a free fix up, I’d avoid a second HT with them at all costs.  
 

yeah, really bad work, sorry man

 

Bright side is, you probably have tons of donor left and can fix this no problem.

[Al - Moderator]

I'm with the others in that this doesn't look like 2500 grafts. Did they charge you per hair rather than per graft? That would probably make it in the range of 1100 grafts if it was per hair. I guess the somewhat good news is that you haven't really wasted any grafts because it looks like most of them probably grew. You just didn't get enough of them put in. How long is the FUT scar? A short FUT scar that doesn't go from ear to ear would be one good indicator that they didn't do many grafts, although they could do a very thin, long strip if they wanted to fool you into thinking it was more than it was.

Clinics like this usually advertise a lower price than the competitors to get you in the door, but you actually end up paying more than you would at another place. Once you're there they tell you that you may need a 2nd hair transplant to add some density (just like you said they did) and then give you just enough so you can see that you got some coverage which makes it easier for them to convince you to go for the 2nd procedure to finish the job. Don't go for another procedure with them.

 

[AlexMeister21]

You should try to get a refund if you can. If they say they implanted 2,500 grafts and the procedure itself only took about 4 hours, something is not right.

[callmebob2021]

Thanks for the comments/help.t about the scar - mine is long (ear to ear) and thin--difficult to see now--which made me think the doctor did a great job on the cutting and stitching, but which could mean a "fool you into thinking it was more than it was" situation to quote @BeHappy. One other note I should make clear: the "Immediate post HT in dr office" photo was taken by me, selfie style, not the official doctors photo. So, dr is off the hook there. Although I asked dr for original but they wouldn't release to me. So, maybe not off the hook.

Notes from my 1 year post-op check in: Doctor basically said these things:

• The result is definitely better than before. He said I basically had no hair on the temples and now I do, so it's better
• To my question of "this doesn't seem like 2500 grafts", he reiterated that he did 2.5 grafts even pulling out the chart and reading 2, 531 grafts
• To my question of "you said 2500 would do the trick, you did 2500 it didn't provide full coverage, did I have non-typical results" he responded with a generic "results vary person to person, hair type to hair type" type of answer
• To my comment of "seems weird that there's very little coverage on the right side of my head", he examined my head more, drew an oval about the size of two dimes laid side by side and said yes, "that spot didn't seem to take", he said that could be for various reasons but he couldn't tell me what exactly happened there. 
• He said I probably want thicker coverage so we should do a second procedure, he would comp me 200 grafts for the oval where the procedure didn't stick and he didn't know what happened.

That was basically it. The doctor was Dr. Charles from Boca. You guys have been helpful here so far, so thanks for that. Any other thought on the subject would be helpful. And a recommendation for a different doctor that can do the 2nd "fix up" procedure would also be appreciated. 

p.s. one other comment that the dr mentioned when talking about procedure #2 - I asked FUE vs. FUT for procedure #2 and he basically said FUE makes completely no sense as a second procedure if you have previously done FUT. Because you already have the scar. I never thought about that before doing #1 and have never seen discussed here. But something that seems like an extremely important piece of info to contemplate before you go into your first procedure. 

 

[JDEE0]

5 minutes ago, callmebob2021 said:

Thanks for the comments/help.t about the scar - mine is long (ear to ear) and thin--difficult to see now--which made me think the doctor did a great job on the cutting and stitching, but which could mean a "fool you into thinking it was more than it was" situation to quote @BeHappy. One other note I should make clear: the "Immediate post HT in dr office" photo was taken by me, selfie style, not the official doctors photo. So, dr is off the hook there. Although I asked dr for original but they wouldn't release to me. So, maybe not off the hook.

Notes from my 1 year post-op check in: Doctor basically said these things:

• The result is definitely better than before. He said I basically had no hair on the temples and now I do, so it's better
• To my question of "this doesn't seem like 2500 grafts", he reiterated that he did 2.5 grafts even pulling out the chart and reading 2, 531 grafts
• To my question of "you said 2500 would do the trick, you did 2500 it didn't provide full coverage, did I have non-typical results" he responded with a generic "results vary person to person, hair type to hair type" type of answer
• To my comment of "seems weird that there's very little coverage on the right side of my head", he examined my head more, drew an oval about the size of two dimes laid side by side and said yes, "that spot didn't seem to take", he said that could be for various reasons but he couldn't tell me what exactly happened there. 
• He said I probably want thicker coverage so we should do a second procedure, he would comp me 200 grafts for the oval where the procedure didn't stick and he didn't know what happened.

That was basically it. The doctor was Dr. Charles from Boca. You guys have been helpful here so far, so thanks for that. Any other thought on the subject would be helpful. And a recommendation for a different doctor that can do the 2nd "fix up" procedure would also be appreciated. 

p.s. one other comment that the dr mentioned when talking about procedure #2 - I asked FUE vs. FUT for procedure #2 and he basically said FUE makes completely no sense as a second procedure if you have previously done FUT. Because you already have the scar. I never thought about that before doing #1 and have never seen discussed here. But something that seems like an extremely important piece of info to contemplate before you go into your first procedure. 

 

Dr. Glenn Charles? Isn't he one of the coalition members recommend here?

Either way, he should be ashamed of himself for his responses to you as he essentially just places the blame onto yourself. It's a bad result, as you already know, which happens sometimes, but the fact he's not really acknowledging that and just playing it off with the whole 'results may vary' trick (after the fact, mind you) and trying to placate you by telling you it's better than before is awful. When something like this happens, the doctor categorically should be on your side and be agreeing with you that whatever hair type or texture you have, this obviously wasn't the intended outcome.... if he thought this would be the result based on your own characteristics, he shouldn't have performed surgery on you. He knows better.

To be honest, the work looked crap from a few days post op based on your pics and it's clear to me it's far more likely down to his work than your physiology or hair type. In other words, looking at day 5 onwards of your pics, I am not surprised by this outcome. So to say it's because of you is not true.

Beyond this, why on earth is he trying to tell you that a 200 graft top up will set you right? You can times that number by 10 and then you're closer to what you need, but even then, I think a little more would be warranted to make you happy. 

Sorry about your result, surely Melvin can get involved here some way if it is the same Dr. Charles recommended by the site... although I'm not talking about a free repair - I wouldn't go back under any circumstances.

For a 2nd op, depends on if youre willing to travel to Europe. If you'll only stay in NA, I would probably go to H&W.

 

 

[civic]

Sorry to see such happen. It seems it's a lottery with results. The other  day someome else posted sub par 8 month result from reputable doc. Good doctors can have bad days & bad doctors can have good days. As we sometimes see even hair mills hit  homeruns once in a while. Don't blame yourself much, you did the best with research you could.

[JoeMan]

1 hour ago, civic said:

Sorry to see such happen. It seems it's a lottery with results. The other  day someome else posted sub par 8 month result from reputable doc. Good doctors can have bad days & bad doctors can have good days. As we sometimes see even hair mills hit  homeruns once in a while. Don't blame yourself much, you did the best with research you could.

But when good Dr's have bad days, they step up and admit it. Try their best to accommodate and remedy the situation. Not offer 200 grafts if you buy another 2k.

[civic]

Agree!

[JoeMan]

Mind me asking the cost for this procedure? If you'd rather not say then I understand. 

[JoeMan]

If you're willing to go to Europe, they have some excellent Dr's and they're much cheaper than the US.

I'd look at Dr. Bisanga, Dr. Ferreira, Dr. Pinto and Dr. De Freitas for your 2nd procedure. 

In US, Dr Cooley looks interesting to me or H&W in Canada. 

[Al - Moderator]

2 hours ago, callmebob2021 said:

p.s. one other comment that the dr mentioned when talking about procedure #2 - I asked FUE vs. FUT for procedure #2 and he basically said FUE makes completely no sense as a second procedure if you have previously done FUT. Because you already have the scar.

 

He is right. You already have a FUT scar, so you may as well do another FUT. You won't get a 2nd scar. They will cut out the first scar and go along that same scar line, so you will still have the same scar you have now.

 

[TobinInce]

21 hours ago, JDEE0 said:

Dr. Glenn Charles? Isn't he one of the coalition members recommend here?

Either way, he should be ashamed of himself for his responses to you as he essentially just places the blame onto yourself. It's a bad result, as you already know, which happens sometimes, but the fact he's not really acknowledging that and just playing it off with the whole 'results may vary' trick (after the fact, mind you) and trying to placate you by telling you it's better than before is awful. When something like this happens, the doctor categorically should be on your side and be agreeing with you that whatever hair type or texture you have, this obviously wasn't the intended outcome.... if he thought this would be the result based on your own characteristics, he shouldn't have performed surgery on you. He knows better.

To be honest, the work looked crap from a few days post op based on your pics and it's clear to me it's far more likely down to his work than your physiology or hair type. In other words, looking at day 5 onwards of your pics, I am not surprised by this outcome. So to say it's because of you is not true.

Beyond this, why on earth is he trying to tell you that a 200 graft top up will set you right? You can times that number by 10 and then you're closer to what you need, but even then, I think a little more would be warranted to make you happy. 

Sorry about your result, surely Melvin can get involved here some way if it is the same Dr. Charles recommended by the site... although I'm not talking about a free repair - I wouldn't go back under any circumstances.

For a 2nd op, depends on if youre willing to travel to Europe. If you'll only stay in NA, I would probably go to H&W.

 

 

This is indeed alarming, since he seems highly recommended. I was actually considering him for my first FUT procedure given his geographical proximity and his accolades. However I did notice that the before & after FUT results on his website are often... less than impressive? Patients apparently getting ~2500 grafts, but sometimes you're unable to tell any difference. Check it out to see what I mean. OP's result is not far from the average it seems to me.  I was torn at first, because my first thought was that he simply has a conservative realistic approach, and publishing these seemingly modest results is just an indicator of that. But now...