To avoid sides, finasteride plus...trt?

[dotdashdashdash]

Hey everyone,

I had FUE back in March and have been wanting to start finasteride but am nervous about the side effects. The reason I am nervous is that I already experience some ED issues. I have an appointment with a urologist tomorrow but am nervous and wanted to see what you all think.

Something that's been suggested to me is to get on TRT to help with the ed issues and then finasteride will take care of the dht that is 5 alpha reduced from the increased testosterone. 

To add some more detail here, my testosterone was 326.0 ng/dL (American Urological Association sets the cut off for normal at 300 ng/dL) and DHT was 30 ng/dL (reference range 12-65 ng/dL). And embarrassing as it is to post about, even anonymously, I am experiencing some ED issues. I also have fatigue problems during the day. I am in very good shape and lift six times per week, <10% body fat, so it isn't a weight or lack of exercise issue. My body just sucks, ha.

My worry, then, is that if I take finasteride and it suppresses my DHT (which is a more influential androgen than testosterone) that it will make the issues I'm having even worse since I don't have a high enough testosterone to compensate for the lack of DHT.

What I wonder is if I take TRT that I will increase my testosterone, get the benefit of DHT on my hair (which I desperately need), and solve my ED issues. (To be clear, I do realize there are other potential issues with TRT, which complicates matters further and I am wary of. But I will set those aside for now.)

Has anyone tried this combination? For these or similar reasons? Or does anyone have thoughts on whether this sounds like it makes sense or is absolutely stupid and wants to stop me from making a terrible mistake?

Thank you! 

Edited July 21, 2021 by dotdashdashdash

[Legend007]

Going on TRT will accelerate your hairloss . Especially if u are already pre-destined for baldness. 

Try a very low dose of finasteride n see how that goes for u ..

if not try topical fin.. 

Try Kegel exercises for the other issue .. it works if u do it right n consistently .. do some research on it. 

 

[1978matt]

Training 6 days a week is a lot.  <10% bf wont help.  What sort of routine and how intense is is.  How old are you?

I may be wrong but I think the amount of Test is not what dictates the amount of DHT; it's the 5 alpha reductase.  So TRT probably wouldn't have a huge effect on DHT levels, especially if you're taking Fin.

I think DHT derived steroids are what generally causes balding increase as these just add straight DHT into the system.

Anyway, WTF would I know.  I just follow bodybuilding from time to time.  Never touched the stuff!

There's a couple of Doctor's I've seen on youtube who know a lot about TRT:  Dr Rand McClain and Dr O'Connor.  You could try scheduling a discussion with one of them.

 

 

[JDEE0]

This video answers most of your questions: 

 

 

It's mostly to do with steroid abuse rather than TRT, but same principle, just works out more in your favour as your test levels won't be anywhere near as high as someone blasting. Probably worth watching the whole thing, but the most relevant part to your question starts around the 8.30 min mark until the end of the video.

But basically, yes, fin will certainly still protect your hair on TRT. However, it's obviously not optimal as you're ultimately going to have more conversion from T to DHT if your T levels are significantly higher than they were previously. In addition, you're going to have more T to also bind to the AR in the hair follicle than previously if your levels are higher. T is nowhere as near damaging as DHT though, so it shouldn't be make too big of a difference; especially if your TRT dose still puts you within the reference range for normal T levels (i.e. the clinic isn't essentially just giving you a legal cycle going completely overboard on the dosage and putting your levels outside of the natural range - really it should put you in the higher end of normal).

In the long run, it's probably going to be somewhat worse for your hair, yes. But I don't think it will make a huge difference if you're just using TRT to bring your T levels up to the higher end of the reference range.

Ideally you would use a topical AA to clean up the excess T (and also excess DHT as well generally in regards to the 30 or so percent left over by fin regardless of the TRT) like RU or CB, but they aren't really ideal options as one is unregulated/has poor data and the other isn't approved yet so you still have to get it on the grey market and is thus still unregulated too (also very expensive). 

Maybe in a few years when we hopefully have some topical AA's available (either in the form of Breezula, one of kintor's etc.) you could use them in conjunction for peace of mind. I think the additional negative effects the TRT will have on your hair in the meantime will be negligible until then.

Also, yes TRT *should* mitigate any sides you might have from fin as Derek explains in the video. Nothing is guaranteed, but it seems it would be highly unlikely to experience sexual sides etc whilst on TRT.

[Melvin- Admin]

There used to be a guy on YouTube who mentored Derek from MPMD called "Hair Loss From Steroids" I can't find his videos anymore, but I found them to be very good. Essentially, it all boils down to your personal sensitivity to androgens. For example, someone like Jay Cutler who's in his 40's has an extremely high tolerance for androgens. He has barely lost any hair, someone like him could probably cruise without seeing any hair loss whilst using fin.

Very mild recession despite heavy steroid use.

Jay Cutler Young

 

 

Now take a look at Big Ramy early 20s

Big Ramy now Norwood 7

 

The reason I bring up these examples is because there is no definitive way to predict how much hair you will lose on TRT. Even if Big Ramy took 1mg of fin per day I doubt he would have his hair. He has high sensitivity to androgens. While your testosterone levels seem a little low, they aren't low enough to need TRT in my opinion. You can definitely raise your levels up naturally to a normal level like 500-600 ng/dl. I think that is the safest way to go about it. If you have ED take Cialis. I wouldn't be on TRT unless you are absolutely shut down and your test is the 100s. 

[JDEE0]

43 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

There used to be a guy on YouTube who mentored Derek from MPMD called "Hair Loss From Steroids" I can't find his videos anymore, but I found them to be very good. Essentially, it all boils down to your personal sensitivity to androgens. For example, someone like Jay Cutler who's in his 40's has an extremely high tolerance for androgens. He has barely lost any hair, someone like him could probably cruise without seeing any hair loss whilst using fin.

Very mild recession despite heavy steroid use.

Jay Cutler Young

 

 

Now take a look at Big Ramy early 20s

Big Ramy now Norwood 7

 

The reason I bring up these examples is because there is no definitive way to predict how much hair you will lose on TRT. Even if Big Ramy took 1mg of fin per day I doubt he would have his hair. He has high sensitivity to androgens. While your testosterone levels seem a little low, they aren't low enough to need TRT in my opinion. You can definitely raise your levels up naturally to a normal level like 500-600 ng/dl. I think that is the safest way to go about it. If you have ED take Cialis. I wouldn't be on TRT unless you are absolutely shut down and your test is the 100s. 

Oh really? I didn't know that. Interesting, I'll have to try and find his videos as I'm sure I'd enjoy watching. I do generally agree with Melvin here though OP, your T levels aren't ridiculously low. You said you're below 10% body fat, by how much? This could definitely be affecting you to some degree, maybe not, but maybe.

It also could have just been the day you tested, getting a one off test for checking T isn't very reliable and someone could easily read in the 300's on day and then a few hundred points higher another week for a number of reasons, so I would try and get tested numerous times in optimal conditions (fully rested, not on a diet/cut, not having drank in the past few days and so on).

However, if OP tries all he can and he can't seem to bring his levels up to a reasonable range, I could understand wanting to be on TRT, especially if it's affecting his quality of life, which I would argue is more important than hair.

You're right that there's no real way to predict how much hair you will lose on TRT, but there's no real way to predict off it either. In any case, J Cutler, big Ramy or any IFBB pro for that matter are/were taking huge amounts of exogenous hormones, not just in the form of large amounts of testosterone that are far higher than your typical therapeutic TRT dose, but whatever else is in their stack, e.g. Trenbolone and everything in-between.

All of this (and cycling on and off for well over a decade as the two you mentioned have done) will obviously have a much higher risk of impacting hair than bringing someones T up from 300 ish to say 800 ish ng/dl. So yes whilst big Ramy probably wouldn't have been saved by fin, I think if he never competed and was just a normal guy on an actual TRT dose it would have worked nearly as well as it would've if he was natural and on nothing (which may not have been that well regardless judging by his hair in his early 20's). 

Saying all that, I personally wouldn't take TRT unless I had to as I wouldn't want to risk it. But, if your quality of life is being affected and you can't bring your levels up no matter what you try, then as long as you stay in the reference range and don't take a stupid dose of test I don't think it's going to make a huge difference to your hair personally. It will inevitably speed things up to some degree as you're overall introducing more androgens into your body, but the fin should do its job still at a therapeutic dosage.

Edited July 22, 2021 by JDEE0

[Legend007]

How bout u try the TRT . N start a post with your current hair with monthly updates .. we can test if TRT contributes to a extra hairloss within half a year . 
If u become bald during this time .. then yeah no TRT for me .. 

[Ronnieman]

Even without the fin, you seem a good candidate for TRT. You are clearly experiencing the symptoms of low T, and your T level is Low

 

Go on some TRT Facebook groups for more info

[Melvin- Admin]

What time did you get your blood test done? Did you eat before your blood test? These things can affect the numbers. For example, one time I had my test levels checked when I was sick with the flu, after I had eaten. It came back at 396 ng/dl a few weeks later I got it tested again on an empty stomach at 9am and it came back 638 ng/dl. 

[dotdashdashdash]

6 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

What time did you get your blood test done? Did you eat before your blood test? These things can affect the numbers. For example, one time I had my test levels checked when I was sick with the flu, after I had eaten. It came back at 396 ng/dl a few weeks later I got it tested again on an empty stomach at 9am and it came back 638 ng/dl. 

Yes, exactly, I had no idea. This was the case with me, too (though my numbers didn't get as high as yours). Thanks also to JDEE0 for suggesting, too, getting tested at different times.

I had a test in the morning yesterday, and it came back today 444 (as compared with 326). And I had eaten. The other lab numbers looked dead center normal, too.

So I'm going to give finasteride a shot and see what happens. If I get sides, I will discontinue or may consider trying TRT plus the finasteride.

That said, I think like folks are saying in this thread, I am nervous about TRT, which would lead to more DHT, and even with a blocker of a high percentage there would be a lot still slipping through and wreaking havoc. I hope I can avoid the whole thing entirely.

I will definitely update here to post what happens for me and I will also share lab numbers along the way, since that's the sort of thing I'd want to see from people.

Thanks, everyone! Fingers crossed. 

[Melvin- Admin]

2 hours ago, dotdashdashdash said:

Yes, exactly, I had no idea. This was the case with me, too (though my numbers didn't get as high as yours). Thanks also to JDEE0 for suggesting, too, getting tested at different times.

I had a test in the morning yesterday, and it came back today 444 (as compared with 326). And I had eaten. The other lab numbers looked dead center normal, too.

So I'm going to give finasteride a shot and see what happens. If I get sides, I will discontinue or may consider trying TRT plus the finasteride.

That said, I think like folks are saying in this thread, I am nervous about TRT, which would lead to more DHT, and even with a blocker of a high percentage there would be a lot still slipping through and wreaking havoc. I hope I can avoid the whole thing entirely.

I will definitely update here to post what happens for me and I will also share lab numbers along the way, since that's the sort of thing I'd want to see from people.

Thanks, everyone! Fingers crossed. 

That could definitely affect your levels. Are you on a low fat diet? That could really plummet your levels. Overall, I think your levels aren’t that low, you could definitely raise it naturally. 

[dotdashdashdash]

10 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

That could definitely affect your levels. Are you on a low fat diet? That could really plummet your levels. Overall, I think your levels aren’t that low, you could definitely raise it naturally. 

Yeah, so here's where I feel I'm in a no-win—to try to get more of a shredded look, I'm on a low fat, low sugar, high protein, carb cycle diet that I had a nutritionist and IBFF bodybuilding pro build. (Yes, I paid someone to tell me to eat chicken and rice twice a day and fish and sweet potatoes twice a day and eggs and a protein shake.)

But what you're saying about a low fat diet makes a lot of sense.