FUT is less costly compared to FUE. Can i choose FUT?

[keyser-soze]

So have you eventually decided your going with strip?

Have you decided were your going or are you still just talking the talk but not prepared to walk the walk to the clinic door? lol

 

 

Then I do not know which Lorenzo cases you are referring to, because I have seen tons on the Ganarpelo/recuperarpelo, and the best ones out of Hasson, Konior, Rahal, Shapiro IMO show better density and naturalness that Lorenzo just doesn't seem to get. There are others on recuperarpelo who also note this. This is after Lorenzo operating in Southern Europe and getting a lot of patients with coarse, wavy hair and multiple follicular units.

 

Not to mention, his best work is often cases that involve 3-4 passes. That's a long time, something that is not immediately apparent on a video.

[KO]

So have you eventually decided your going with strip?

Have you decided were your going or are you still just talking the talk but not prepared to walk the walk to the clinic door? lol

 

I will decide when I am comfortable doing so. If you don't like it, then that's your problem.

[MAGNUMpi]

Amazing thread.

Sometimes I think my academic evaluation of these details comes off as "anti-FUE" or "pro-strip," but this isn't the case.

Don't despair Blake you're presence on this forum is invaluable. I don't read your posts as "anti FUE". They always seem well balanced and fair. Again great thread.

[scar5]

Don't despair Blake

 

Pathos?

Logos?

Ethos?

 

I also think it is a good thread. Don't care if the original OP went AWOL. We learn't (learned) ;

 

1) New York state doesn't permit tech extraction, making FUE extremely costly in New york

2) FUE fibrotic scarring is a phoney excuse for the strip rationale

 

That's a good start.

Edited May 23, 2015 by scar5
The Greek BS only was lame

[BaldingBogger]

Pathos?

Logos?

Ethos?

 

I also think it is a good thread. Don't care if the original OP went AWOL. We learn't (learned) ;

 

1) New York state doesn't permit tech extraction, making FUE extremely costly in New york

2) FUE fibrotic scarring is a phoney excuse for the strip rationale

 

That's a good start.

 

I would have to agree with this. It seemed a few years back Dr Feller would take on medium to larger FUE cases but i haven't seen a moderate to large FUE case from his clinic in years. Most probably as he's not comfortable performing for whatever reason probably physical due to the tech restriction.

 

His pricing seems to make it unrealistic as others have stated. I believe this has fuelled a bias from that clinic as well as others in North America to promoting strip. Nothing wrong with a clinic performing whatever they wish but patients should be aware of the situation in USA so they don't get misled with scare tactics discrediting a certain procedure.

[KO]

A lot of focus on the merits of FUE scarring and whether doctors have the incentive to do it, not much focus on how FUE results actually look...

[hairweare]

If you are not impressed with the recent case presentations of Dr. Vories, or what Pma just posted then I don't think you are going to be much happier with a FUSS result either. Have you ever tried just shaving your head? For many high Norwoods particularly those who go back and forth unable to make a surgical decision this may be the best approach.

[Blake Bloxham]

Explanation about subcutaneous scarring with FUE -- for those interested: http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179288-fut-less-costly-compared-fue-can-i-choose-fut-post2430629.html#post2430629

 

Dr Feller has done many large FUE sessions in the past. He's back away from them for the reasons I've discussed before. It's not that he doesn't have the capacity to do them or that patients don't consult requesting big FUE sessions, he's just not satisfied with the results compared to his strip procedures. He thinks yields are too variable, doesn't like risking grafts -- as many of his patients are high NW cases, and doesn't think FUE yields the same hair characteristics -- all things I've discussed previously in the thread.

 

KO,

 

I do think you bring up an interesting point. I often consult with patients/exchange messages with members and read paragraphs about donor scarring without seeing a single comment about the recipient area/final appearance.

[keyser-soze]

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/177864-what-happens-when-donor-site-left-open.html

 

This is one of many reasons why i would never go for strip.

Who is the dr that did this?

Is it going to be that he sees for strip?

When was this 10 years ago?no last year.

Surely its not a recomended dr by this forum? yes it is

 

Has there been any investigation into who this dr is ?

 

Seems to be a lot of fue bashing going on of late could this be the latest attempt by US clinics to stop people choosing alternative countries for the type of procedure they cannot get in the US ?

 

Blake if you and dr feller feel that fut far out ways fue and that as you have said before you think US docs talk people into fut because they are ethical are you and dr feller not being unethical by carrying out fue?

Are you also saying that fue only clinics are unethical? because thats exactly what it sounds like.

 

I think its pure and simple that the vast majority of patients want fue and they cannot get it in the US for numerous reasons so they go abroad and save a good bit of money in the proces.

There are not that many good fue docs in the US nowadays but in europe and turkey there are lots of good fue only clinics at half or a third or less of the price per graft compared to dr feller. Why would anyone choose dr feler other than conveience of locality?

[Blake Bloxham]

Keyser,

 

If you look through that thread, you'll see that I asked the patient multiple times to message or email me. I tried to contact him privately as well. Never heard a peep. We can't investigate if the patient doesn't give us the information and consent to do so. Trust me, I would have loved to help this guy out. Also, this obviously isn't the standard for any type of hair transplant surgery. It's really not a reflection of any procedure; it's a very strange situation that I still don't understand because the patient didn't reply.

[KO]

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/177864-what-happens-when-donor-site-left-open.html

 

This is one of many reasons why i would never go for strip.

Who is the dr that did this?

Is it going to be that he sees for strip?

When was this 10 years ago?no last year.

Surely its not a recomended dr by this forum? yes it is

 

Has there been any investigation into who this dr is ?

 

Seems to be a lot of fue bashing going on of late could this be the latest attempt by US clinics to stop people choosing alternative countries for the type of procedure they cannot get in the US ?

 

Blake if you and dr feller feel that fut far out ways fue and that as you have said before you think US docs talk people into fut because they are ethical are you and dr feller not being unethical by carrying out fue?

Are you also saying that fue only clinics are unethical? because thats exactly what it sounds like.

 

I think its pure and simple that the vast majority of patients want fue and they cannot get it in the US for numerous reasons so they go abroad and save a good bit of money in the proces.

There are not that many good fue docs in the US nowadays but in europe and turkey there are lots of good fue only clinics at half or a third or less of the price per graft compared to dr feller. Why would anyone choose dr feler other than conveience of locality?

 

Indeed, as I said, more talk about the donor site....nothing about the hair on top!

[scar5]

.....patients should be aware of the situation in USA so they don't get misled with scare tactics discrediting a certain procedure.

 

Indeed.

 

This is another great point this thread.

 

Perhaps, it is just me, but I am getting the feeling that the people who just drop by this community, on the outer fringes, can start to get this now. So important.

 

KO asking us to switch focus to the recipient supports my intuition.

 

Blake telling us that Dr. Feller has 'woken up' to the shortcomings of FUE resonates with it much more.

 

I suspect, Dr. Feller has 'woken up' to what a pain in the ass FUE is when he has to do it all by himself.

[KO]

Are you so sure that FUE is that painstaking? These surgeons use motorized extraction which can remove a lot of grafts, this is not Bisanga who is the only doctor I know that does manual all by himself.

 

Odd that you think I am asking to switch focus as a diversion tactic. I guess I am a secret employee of one of these clinics?

 

Interestingly, you've never really tried to refute my assertion that FUT produces better aesthetic results than FUE, as I suspect you agree with it.

[Blake Bloxham]

Scar,

 

I never said he "woke up" to the realities of FUE. He's performed the procedure for upwards of 12 years. He tried a lot of different things with it over the years, and came to these conclusions after lots of experience. This was good science and enough data to form a valid opinion.

 

Also, what's wrong with discussing the actual results in the recipient region? Isn't this why patients undergo surgery?

 

Also, didn't you say earlier in the thread that you had FUE at one of these places with the lax laws and you were disappointed with the results?

 

KO,

 

I said the taxing nature was being blown out of proportion before. Especially in the era of motorized tools. I used my first hand experience to back these statements, and was told I was wrong. Lol.

 

At this point, gents, I think we're at a stalemate. I'm not sure the thread is really helping those researching FUE or strip procedures either. I stand by my points, but I'm going to only try and interject here when I think it's necessary.

 

Thank you all for the discussion.

[hairweare]

The recent case presentations by Dr. Vories, Pma, Maltese, Betterlate, and Shacked all look pretty good to me. Can't say other than SunnyCool's FUSS result from Dr. Shapiro that any recently posted strip case appear all that impressive. I am of course only referring to the recipient areas.

 

Blake have you done many 2000K cases with manual punches and all the implants by yourself to be able to say that the procedure is not physically taxing? Despite your protests to the contrary, you do come off as a champion for strip which is fine because at 9 or !0 USD a graft I doubt realistically that you will be doing much FUE going forward.

Edited May 24, 2015 by hairweare

[Blake Bloxham]

Weare,

 

Isn't PMA only 4.5 months or so out? When I reviewed his thread, the most recent image I saw was the back of his results while he was showcasing the crown work. I also seriously disagree with the FUSS results comments. Come on man!?? Really? Haha. But like I said before, I think we've reached a standstill here.

 

Also, just to clarify a few points:

 

I champion for patients to undergo the right procedure for their goals. If that's FUE, then great!

 

Second, Dr L charges $9.32 for the first thousand grafts, but he manages to do plenty of FUE -- and my point here is that I'm going to be doing a lot via our new method in the future, and not just strip.

 

Third, I'm confused ... I think I'm the only person in the thread who has actually performed both procedures. Why will no one take my word that the taxing comments are being exaggerated. I know you've called him a 'robot' and said he possesses magic skills, but Dr L isn't the only one who can remove grafts manually without getting 'crippling arthritis.' Lol.

 

Again, I think objectivity has gone out the window here and no matter how points are being presented, we're running in circles.

 

I really do like you gents, and we really are on the same team here. We have slight differences of opinion, but I don't want to the discussion to create a negative vibe on the boards.

 

Also, weare, I want to see some more pics of the results!

 

If I offended anyone, my bad! I apologize. Best of luck.

[hairweare]

Pma's first frontal procedure results were posted not just the crown.

 

6Euros=6.61USD Where are you getting your math?

 

Farjo's FUSS techs nicknamed Lorenzo the robot. I agree the moniker suites him well though.

 

You didn't answer the question as to how many 2k FUE procedures you have done using both manual punches and all of the implantations. Comparing that to taking out a strip and sewing or stapling it up and then making knife slits is just not credible. Can you cite another surgeon who works as fast and accurately as Lorenzo?

 

Other than Sunnycool's result are there any recent FUSS postings that I missed that are as impressive as the ones I mentioned above?

 

Objectivity isn't being thrown out the window as long as we avoid hyperbole and just stick to the facts.

[scar5]

 

I said the taxing nature was being blown out of proportion before. Especially in the era of motorized tools. I used my first hand experience to back these statements, and was told I was wrong. Lol.

 

At this point, gents, I think we're at a stalemate.

 

.

 

There is no stalemate when dollars are rolling.

 

Let's say, for arguments sake, that FUE is not a strain for a doctor and that cutting a strip out is actually far more stressful on the limbs, eyes, the back, the mind (concentration).

 

Now 40 minutes of a strip versus two days of mild inconvenience. That equates to the corresponding time doctor needs to to spend to pull 3000 grafts. (And that is generous)

 

Even if FUE was as blissful as a massage chair, doing in non-stop for two to three days is not gonna give the doctor a whole lotta time to do much else. Day in day out >>> year in year out.

 

So even if FUE is not a strain, just the time spent and lost in opportunity cost makes FUE a dreadful proposition for a doctor/clinic working in a jurisdiction where techs can't extract, unless of course it is appropriated and confined to the odd 'small job'. In fact, as a business model, it probably pays to do just that because clients are far more likely to trust a doctor that does both in the consulting room.

[1978matt]

The recent case presentations by Dr. Vories, Pma, Maltese, Betterlate, and Shacked all look pretty good to me. Can't say other than SunnyCool's FUSS result from Dr. Shapiro that any recently posted strip case appear all that impressive.

 

Whatever you're on can I have some too please:)?

 

Pma, Maltese and Betterlate all have what appears to be very coarse hair. Shacked looks to have a lot of donor density and a persistent forelock. All very good results I do agree.

 

But did you not see any of these recent strip cases?

 

Patient Posted

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/177388-3972-fut-dr-gabel-11.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/177060-dr-rahal-2250-fut-4.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178450-dr-pathomvanich-november-2014-4300-fut.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/177235-3988-grafts-dr-paul-shapiro-8.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179445-8-months-post-op.html

Clinic Posted

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179547-dr-cooley-4-317-fut-front-crown.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179530-dr-paul-shapiro%92s-result-nw5-5991grafts-12-304hairs-2-strip-sessions.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179477-dr-k-dua-2250-grafts-fut-technique.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179415-dr-richard-s-keller-chicago-life-changing-results-3-007-fu.html

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/179368-dr-cooley-3-595-grafts-type-v.html

[1978matt]

Scar,

 

I never said he "woke up" to the realities of FUE. He's performed the procedure for upwards of 12 years. He tried a lot of different things with it over the years, and came to these conclusions after lots of experience. This was good science and enough data to form a valid opinion.

 

Also, what's wrong with discussing the actual results in the recipient region? Isn't this why patients undergo surgery?

 

 

I think you're wasting your time with this scar5 fella. He's clearly a well balanced individual - he has a chip on both shoulders!

 

It always amuses me how the most vocal FUE promoters never seem to post their own results. Funny that:rolleyes:.

[delancey]

Weare,

 

Isn't PMA only 4.5 months or so out? When I reviewed his thread, the most recent image I saw was the back of his results while he was showcasing the crown work. I also seriously disagree with the FUSS results comments. Come on man!?? Really? Haha. But like I said before, I think we've reached a standstill here.

 

Also, just to clarify a few points:

 

I champion for patients to undergo the right procedure for their goals. If that's FUE, then great!

 

Second, Dr L charges $9.32 for the first thousand grafts, but he manages to do plenty of FUE -- and my point here is that I'm going to be doing a lot via our new method in the future, and not just strip.

 

Third, I'm confused ... I think I'm the only person in the thread who has actually performed both procedures. Why will no one take my word that the taxing comments are being exaggerated. I know you've called him a 'robot' and said he possesses magic skills, but Dr L isn't the only one who can remove grafts manually without getting 'crippling arthritis.' Lol.

 

Again, I think objectivity has gone out the window here and no matter how points are being presented, we're running in circles.

 

I really do like you gents, and we really are on the same team here. We have slight differences of opinion, but I don't want to the discussion to create a negative vibe on the boards.

 

Also, weare, I want to see some more pics of the results!

 

If I offended anyone, my bad! I apologize. Best of luck.

 

Hi Blake,

 

Dr. Lorenzo does not charge 9.32 dollars per graft. Please see his pricing structure below.

 

Dr. Lorenzo charges:

 

6 euros for the first 1000 grafts

4 euros for the second 1000 grafts

2.5 euros per graft thereafter

 

Please note that his rates are fixed at 2.5 euros per graft once 2000 grafts have been extracted. Therefore, if a client goes back to the office 2 years later, the rates are still 2.5 euros per graft.

 

A NW 6 needing 7,000 grafts would end up paying:

 

1000 x 6 = 6000 euros

1000 x 4 = 4000 euros

5000 x 2.5 = 12,500 euros

 

Total: 22,500 euros

 

 

An American surgeon charging 8 dollars per graft would end up costing:

 

8 dollars x 7000 = 56,000 dollars

 

56,000 dollars converted is 50,849 Euros.

 

US rates: 50,849 Euros

Dr. Lorenzo : 22.500 Euros

 

50,849 - 22,500 = 28,349 euros difference

 

Therefore, clinics charging 8 dollars per graft in the U.S. are 28,349 euros more expensive.

 

Blake, why is this the case?

Edited May 24, 2015 by delancey

[delancey]

I would also like to add that I like the slow and cautious approach followed by surgeons like Dr. Lorenzo. No one can argue with the fact that it may take 3-4 surgeries to achieve one's goal via FUE, especially for NW5s and NW6s, however, this also allows the surgeon to fill in areas that need to be strengthened.

 

We live in a society that demands instant gratification, but we fail to recognize that our image stays with us for life, so spending 6 months to a year longer to achieve our goals is really nothing in the long term.

 

I am not against FUT, but I think its two main weaknesses are:

 

1. The scar that it leaves behind. Once it's there, it's there for life.

2. Poor growth with mega sessions. That is, if a patient has poor growth with 6000 grafts and he is a higher Norwood, what are his options? He is left with a bald head and a big scar. This is not the case with the patient and cautious approach of FUE, where FUE surgeons can go back and fill in areas with poor growth. Another benefit of FUE is that there is a way out. The patient can buzz down his hair to a number 1 or 2, even a 3. This is not an option with FUT.

 

Surely some FUE clinics perform mega sessions. However, most renowned European Doctors, such as Dr. Feriduni, Dr. Mwamba, Dr. Bisanga and Dr. Lorenzo set a daily cap on the number of grafts that can be extracted. This approach keeps the patients well-being in mind.

Edited May 24, 2015 by delancey

[hairweare]

You make some excellent points which I am in total agreement with.

[KO]

 

Blake have you done many 2000K cases with manual punches and all the implants by yourself to be able to say that the procedure is not physically taxing? Despite your protests to the contrary, you do come off as a champion for strip which is fine because at 9 or !0 USD a graft I doubt realistically that you will be doing much FUE going forward.

 

Most surgeons use motorized punches to extract grafts (Including Vories who clearly said he uses motorized to avoid fatigue). Only a few are using manual extraction, and I suspect that number will stay very small as all the Turkish clinics can use tech-driven motorized extraction. In that sense whether manual extraction is tiring is moot IMO.

[KO]

I would also like to add that I like the slow and cautious approach followed by surgeons like Dr. Lorenzo. No one can argue with the fact that it may take 3-4 surgeries to achieve one's goal via FUE, especially for NW5s and NW6s, however, this also allows the surgeon to fill in areas that need to be strengthened.

 

 

 

It's great if you are patient, however you will also see that there are a lot of patients for whom 3-4 surgeries over 5 years is a nonstarter.

 

Take a look at this case, relatively fine/average hair, his sides look weak, and he has a lot of hair loss. If Lorenzo operated on him, he'd only be able to chip away 2k grafts at a time, his donor would look bad afterwards, he'd get fewer grafts.

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/178450-dr-pathomvanich-november-2014-4300-fut.html

 

In other words, you will look like a "work in progress" for a long time...

Edited May 24, 2015 by KO