VIDEO: This video will come as a shock to the LLLT industry. Produced by Dr. Feller of Great Neck, NY

[youngsuccess]

I still have not seen one compelling pair of before and after shots. Most of them look like Hat Head vs. Styled Head.

 

In the pictures posted a couple pages back on this thread, the first shot is with the hair line forcibly pulled back, exposing the weak hair more, while the second in that set shows the hair styled and combed forward, taking the focus off of the miniaturized follicles in the hairline.

 

In the second set, the hair is combed back in the first photo, and then forward again in the second, with the same type of illusion being created. There is a tiny patch of hair under the temporal angle that has a small part running through it in the first, and then it's just combed more neatly in the second.

 

No need to dig up all these reports; the results should speak for themselves.

[jdp710]

Hello Ceasar08,

 

To answer your questions I would say yes to all everything you said but for a few small changes.

 

First I will not say a laser brush that has a handful of laser does nothing. Technically, you will receive a photobiostimulation at as little as .5 joules but honestly, and in my experience, I would say you'll get little results. In order to get better performance out of such a device you'll need to use it "a lot" longer than the recommended 15 minutes, etc.. You'll really need to brush your hair for a couple hours a day every day.

 

As for Dr. Mohmand's arguments I honestly can't say I have read enough of his posts to comment of how much I believe in his thoughts. From some of his posts that I've read I can't find anything wrong with the statements he has posted. So far, it does look like he has a grasp on the science. However, I will disagree on one "MAJOR" area and that is about using a laser brush with a handful of laser diodes being effective. Heck, I would even say I place myself in Dr. Feller's corner in his belief that you won't receive cosmetically significant hair regrowth from a laser brush that has a handful of 5 mw diodes!!! I'll even say that in my opinion that buying a laser brush that costs hundreds of dollars is a big rip off. You can build a laser brush yourself with 6 lasers for $40!!! So yes, I would say to Dr. Mohmand that in my opinion any hair brush that has a handful of 5 mw diodes is not powerful enough.

 

The whole problem I have is when opinions are stated as fact and also when statements are pure false such as what has been posted about LLLT not increasing oxygen, microcirculation, we aren't plants, lasers can't penetrate to the hair follicle, laser light becomes red light once it touches a thumb, photobiostimulation is a myth, infrared laser diodes is the equivalent of a heat lamp, etc.. Again, my point in comming here is that nobody should post misinformation and that's what I'm trying to dispell. Nothing more.

 

As for you statement weather or not a hair transplant surgeon holds any weight about if LLLT I would absolutely say that absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind that they DO NOT HOLD WEIGHT! The only ones that hold weight are the ones that have either tried it themselves, have talked to others that have tried it, have been in the same office for customers that have tried it, are a worker for a laser clinic, have researched the science of LLLT ... well you get it. My point is, just because someone is a Dr. does not mean they hold weight if LLLT works.

 

As for your comment about the poster that sells laser devices you're actually referring to nidhogge. He actually sells a DIY laser helmets and "NOT" laser brushs as it's a big difference. Here's a pic of one of his helmets at this thread. http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21654

So again, he's not arguing for laser brush's but are arguing in favor of laser helmets/hood aka laser clinical devices. Actually, I believe I know each poster that posted the positive comments and they are "all talking about clinical laser devices and not brushes."

 

As for posts OMG on regrowth also posted his a couple months ago. I believe they are still up on the board. And about the statement about minoxidil or an internal DHT inhibitor such as Propecia or even a topical DHT inhibitor. I'll give my personal experience and I'll say I'll never go on DHT inhibitors ever again and minoxidil did more harm than good. If they don't cause side effects or trash your hair, at best, you are just buying yourself some time with these treatments and there are better alternatives but that's for another story.

 

And from all the testimonials that I've read, and in my own experience, I would say the sunetics survey is accurate. Just think about it too. If you think they were going to be biased, don't you think they would have included a % of how much regrowth occured, etc..

 

And yes, if you go to a laser clinic it is expensive but in the long run it's "way" more expensive than a hair transplant? Just say that the average clinic charges $4,000 dollars a year x 50 years. Well, that's a lot of money! BTW, you have to keep using lasers your whole life to keep the quality of your hairs otherwise they'll eventually decline. Laser clinics will say that you can reduce the amount of times you have to treat your hair but in my opinion, and from testimonials, this is false!

 

And again why people don't know about laser clinics I can throw out some ideas that caused this ...

 

1. Stigma ... how many men go to a "salon" type of atmosphere to get their hair treated? Mostly women ... and yes, women benefit too.

 

2. Lack of understanding ... Look at all the people that don't understand the difference between a laser brush and a clinical laser device. Most people figure they can buy a laser brush and it is the same results or almost the same results. It's not. I've said it before but in the beginning their were laser clinics getting very good results. Then laser brush's came and it just stopped laser clinics in it's early stages.

 

I can go on and on but it really isn't needed and this post is getting pretty long. The bottom line is go to a laser clinic yourself. Talk with the customers to see what kind of results they are getting and how it compares to other treatments.

 

I hope I answered your questions, if not feel free to ask me again.

[jdp710]

Oh, Ceasar08 ,

 

You said, "As for the laser machines... there is most certainly ambiguity. Dr. Rassman and Dr. Alexander have both tried the treatments in their offices. Both have stated it did nothing"

 

I would certainly appreciate it if you or someone else could find me any quotes from these Dr.'s that used clinical laser devices stating that it did nothing as this is the first I have ever heard of this.

 

I'm mostly interested in the model that they used and the treatment time for the patients as I have mentioned before ... If you get too many joules you'll receive a bioinhibition which means little to no results.

 

Again, I'd greatly appreciate this.

 

Thank You

[jdp710]

Dr. Feller,

 

That is one area that I agree with you on ...

 

You posted on the other forum of

 

"And perhaps Hairmax is catching on, because since starting my vocal opposition of LLLT they have added a VERY interesting line of text to their before/after picture section:

 

"Note, increases in hair counts are often not demonstratable in photos."

Hairmax website quote that results are often not demonstratable in photos

I'd call that a victory, wouldn't you? Compelling a multi-million dollar company to be more truthful in its marketing is a win for everybody, except them of course. It's a start."

 

I honestly could care less about "every" hair laser brush. I'm also not that thrilled with "every" clinical laser device as I see improvement in everyone's designs but they are still OK.

 

Either way, I'm not going to bother debating about laser light being coherent or non-coherent once it passes through human tissue. That is such a small issue in the debate that it's hardly not even worth mentioning as led and lasers both produce a photobiostimulation. And again, I understand if one maker states it's necessary but they really are arguing to the public without backing up their claims with science. Again, it's the equivalent of one hair transplant surgeon telling the public that his method is better over another hair transplant surgeons.

[jdp710]

Ceasar08,

 

I just saw your other post about if I believe hair really did regrow and I can say without a shadow of a doubt they did. You see I've been treating hair loss for 10 - 15 years. I've tried minoxidil and DHT inhibitors a long time ago. I really am fully aware of what works and doesn't work for me.

 

I've also said it before but the best part of LLLT is the ability to stop your hair loss and thicken your existing hairs! The regrowth aspects of it are a plus and not everybody gets that. From other testimonials your hair quality and regrowth will continue to improve. I've only been able to talk to people that have used it for 2 years and they have said they kept getting improvement even at 2 years. But again, just the ability that LLLT has in the ability to stop hair loss and thicken hairs is the most exciting part.

 

As for anything else I used in conjuction with lasers, I use grapefruit seed extract and coconut oil internally and externally and I keep my bodies PH around 7.0. Most of the reason for it is the ability to kill demodex but that's a whole other story.

 

BTW, I went ahead and copied and pasted testimonials from that board. I hope they don't mind me posting them here. I will say I did not post MIKE or nidhogge as they both sell laser devices. I have also not included the ones who said they didn't see results yet as they have only been using it for a short period of time ... some people can take up to 6 months or even a year ... although most people say that they see improvement at the 3-4 month mark. There was one person who has been using it for a while however, he is using getting too many joules causing bioinhibition. Also if you go back about 2 months or more you'll get even more testimonials from different people. About pictures, OMG posted his about 4 months ago if they are still on the board. One other person on that HLH forum posted his. I believe it was that forum where 2 people posted their clinical laser pictures and also that study posted earlier shows 4. Farrel on the other HLH forum posted a pictures from studies showing a paradoxical increase of hair growth around the site of hair removal. As for why there aren't other people posting theirs .... keep in mind these are all normal regular people that post on internet forums. Most people don't bother taking before pictures to prove to other people weather or not a treatment works. Say if magnesium works to stop hair loss ... most people don't start taking pictures to prove to other people. They will go buy magnesium and see if it does work. But again, go to a laser clinic and ask for photos. Ask what other treatments they are on.

 

Here's the testimonials from regrowth.com

 

"I am seeing results though so I am not concerned about not feeling sore"

 

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21845

 

"For me it took about 4 months and my hair seemed a bit thicker. And it shed less after that time as well. 6 months the overall difusion stopped. After a year it was noticeably thicker to my wife. I finally told her I was going to the office next door to use the laser. She was skeptical, and asked how cute the girls were She knows me well! After 2 years it had overall moderate regrowth"

 

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21716#118928

 

"in relation to how long laser device has been used for ... "9 months and 15 days and every damn month is better than the last!"

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927

 

"I'm 3 months in but won't report results for 3 more... but I don't regret spending the $$$ on the helmet, if that helps.

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927

 

"I`m using my laser device for a month now.Got some terminal hair growth at one side,lots of new vellus hair,but too early to tell."

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927

 

"a little over 2-months in and while I can't claim regrowth (although I think I have some on my hair line) my hair is much more full/thick and looks healthy which gives the appearance of regrowth."

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927

 

"After the one month mark I noticed less hair on the pillow, and my hair seemed to be getting the thicker fuller look - ie more healthy"

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927

 

"My [edited" 90 laser diode]now has 200 Diffused diodes and I must say I am getting better results now than I ever had in the past 2 years of using the unmodified [edited: 90 diode].

 

... If you also have the serious scalp itch - the good news is that Laser should fix that for you. But you will have to keep up the treatment. 2 months after stopping the Salon treatment - my itching returned.

 

"same person but with a laser clinic device instead of commercially bought "Approx 5 years ago I had attended a 12 month Laser treatment in a UK based salon where I yielded little or no results from the treatment.

Around 1.5 years later I attended another 12 month Laser course at a different clinic - only this time I benefited immensely - with new growth, no more scalp itch and approx 40% increased thickness of existing scalp hair.

 

I've always wondered what the difference were between the 2 salons Laser hoods. They were both the same model (Boston Laser) - and during both courses I used nothing else but the laser. So what was the difference between the 2 treatments?

 

So recently I revisited both Salons - under the guise of enquiring about another "top up" laser course. As a previous loyal customer - both clinics allowed me to inspect the laser hoods they used and surprisingly both were the same ones they had used when I was last a client.

 

THE RESULTS:

 

The Laser Hood which didn't yield much results for me was using focused diodes with lenses intact .....and

 

The Laser Hood which had given me excellent results had had all of its lenses removed - thus completely diffused.

 

Needless to say - as soon as I got home - I removed every single lens from my diodes and I now wish I had done this along time ago!"

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21699

[jdp710]

youngsuccess,

 

Don't look at the area where I'm pushing my hair back as their is not that much regrowth their, but instead look on the side of my head.

 

These are pictures of 5 months of LLLT on one side of my head. Yes, the angle is different as I'm looking down but my batteries died before i could get better and it does "NOT" make a difference anyway. I will post photos at a better angle if it's really necessary.

 

Left side of my head

BEFORE

AFTER

[jdp710]

these pictures are of my head at 4 months.

 

For 5 month photos just crop the pictures that I posted earlier of the side of my head just as these are.

 

I should also say for those that say I don't have significant regrowth on the sides of my head on the first photo's that I posted I completely 100% disagree and I would say you haven't been combating hair loss to understand. Yes, you'll get regrowth that can be more from DHT inhibitors like propecia and minoxidil but tell me how long your results will last before you lose it again! For those that have been combating hair loss for a long time like myself, you know what I'm talking about.

 

BEFORE

AFTER

 

OTHER SIDE OF MY HEAD

BEFORE

 

AFTER

[jdp710]

I should also post this article as it's relevant in the discussion between laser hair brushes not giving enough joules for a good enough photobiostimulation to take effect whereas just adding more lasers will do the trick. I actually recommend 200. You can build a device say 50 diodes and move it 4 times on your head to save cost. The problem is you'll have to move the device around to treat different parts of your head for a total of 60-80 minutes! Either way a 50 diode laser device would cost roughly $180. You can build the 200 laser one for roughly $630 and you only need to treat for 20 minutes to save time. And again, it doesn't matter where you buy laser diodes. Heck take apart several dozen DVD players for their laser diodes, lol.

 

Anyway, here's the article,

 

The article is titled, "Are all the negative lllt studies really negative?"

 

"In many of these studies, analysis uncovered one or more reasons for the negative findings reported, the most common being the use of extremely low doses"

http://www.laser.nu/lllt/LLLT_critic_on_critics.htm

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Jdp710 . Dont know who you are since all your post are about the silly laser but I do admire your passion about something you believe in .

Ill never fall for it again but good luck to you.

I was reading another forum this morning and came across this pic . Those are a bunch of the best laser combs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?s=eaded...9124ad0e413&t=105425

[Dr. Alan Feller]

PGP, you crack me up. That photo was hilarious! I'm still laughing. You have excellent internet wit and timing. We need a bit more humor in this LLLT discusion. The LLLT advocates are SO serious.

 

I agree that JDP is passionate and energetic. He is the ONLY LLLT advocate who has gone out of his way to at least try and support his position by showing pictures and doing experiments. I have thanked him for this effort in most of the posts I've made referring to him, even though he has attacked me personally throughout.

 

JDP, again, I appreciate your efforts. But your photos of your own temples demonstrate no difference at all. In fact, the hair behind the area you want us to focus on looks far thinner in the after photos. Trust me my friend, I've been looking at hair everyday for a living and can assure you there is no difference between your before/after photos. None. If they appear different to you, it's just because of lighting, angles, and hair length.

 

I'm glad, however, that we agree that laser combs are useless. That's a step in the right direction and more than I could hope for coming from an ethusiastic LLLLT advocate such as yourself.

 

Ceasar, Thanks for interjecting and trying buddy. Nice to read the voice of reason.

[jdp710]

jdp710 <------- just dispelling myths "on all sides" on what LLLT does ... it's a hobby of mine.

 

Anyway, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. I'll only be on this board for a couple more days so don't cry foul when I'm suddenly gone.

 

 

I'll just end with I'd recommend everyone to do some research about laser clinics and also visit one and talk to their customers too and see what they have to say. Just remember you don't have to pay their fees ... you can build a laser device yourself. All you need are a bunch of laser diodes a power supply and some electrical wiring. Here's what the common laser clinical device look like http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Laser_Hood_comparison.htm And again, for those that haven't followed my thread, I'm also not thrilled with any of those. Don't get me wrong you'll get good results with it. But DIY ones have even more potential although they'll be ugly.

 

I just wish someone would have told me about this years ago and that's why I wrote these threads.

[jdp710]

"READ ME"

 

Oh, BTW, for those that haven't fully followed the posts that I've made to avoid any confusion ...

 

THOSE TESTIMONIALS ABOVE ARE "NOT" TALKING ABOUT LASER BRUSH'S. THEY ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT CLINICAL LASER DEVICES, DIY CLINICAL LASER DEVICES OR A COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE ONE THAT REPLICATES CLINICAL LASER DEVICES.

 

I'm not yelling, I just need to post that so people can see.

 

Also, the thread at hairlosshelp ... those people are not debating the merits of laser brush's either! I believe I know who they are and their testimonials and the debate are ALL talking about devices that replicate clinical laser devices and "NOT" laser brush's. Several of them have openly stated how much they dislike laser hair brush's too.

 

I just want to be clear so we are all on the same page.

 

hope this helps

[jdp710]

I was re-reading part of this thread and I just wanted to debunk another myth about lasers.

 

This was posted earlier, "All laser could do is warm up the underlying tissue. Now if heat would be the solution ... why are men in Africa also balding."

 

Just so everyone is on the same page as there is confusion on all sides about this. The heating of the tissue is not from the laser emitting heat like a light bulb as some laser skeptics would say. The heating of the tissue is from increased circulation.

 

 

"Q: Does LLLT cause a heating of the tissue?

A: Due to increased circulation there is usually an increase of 0.5-1 centigrades locally. The biological effects have nothing to do with heat. GaAlAs lasers in the 300-500 mW range will cause a noticable heat sensation, particularly in hairy areas and on sensitive tissues such as lips.."

 

 

http://www.laser.nu/lllt/Faq1.htm#Does%20LLLT%20cause

[Bill - Seemiller]

Jdp710 . Dont know who you are since all your post are about the silly laser but I do admire your passion about something you believe in .

Ill never fall for it again but good luck to you.

I was reading another forum this morning and came across this pic . Those are a bunch of the best laser combs.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?s=eaded...9124ad0e413&t=105425

 

I think I nearly fell off my chair after I saw that picture.

 

I know there is a lot of serious discussion regarding laser therapy, and rightfully so. But let's admit it - I think we all needed that!

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

jdp710,

 

Though I appreciate your input and insight into laser therapy on our forum, may I suggest that you create one post, let people respond to it, and then continue to engage in the discussion one post at a time?

 

The number of posts and information presented is so overwhelming at one time, that I highly doubt the majority of our members and guests are reading all of it.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[jdp710]

Hi Bill,

 

I 100% agree with you. Also, sorry for spamming the thread with multiple posts too

 

But, yeah, the reason for the very long threads is because there is so much misinformation that has been posted on all sides that I felt it may be better to just tackle every issue at once. But like you mentioned ... I doubt very many people are reading the posts because of it.

 

Either way, I'll be glad to answer any questions you guys have for me for the next couple of days.

[electricb]

Bill, maybe you could invite a laser physics expert on this thread to try to end this debate.

[jdp710]

Hello electricb,

 

I don't mean to be rude and respond for Bill but all this information is readily available through the internet by studies. For instance this study was found by just a quick 30 second google search.

 

"Theoretical computations indicate that lasers, LED's, and polychromatic light do not scatter and diffuse in the same manner within biological issues. Whereas longitudinal coherence, and hence the potential for a greater depth of penetration is theoretically longer with lasers, less so with LEDs. and even lesser with polychromatic light,"

 

 

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/pho.2006.2...et=1&journalCode=pho

 

Again, just do a google search and you'll find studies on this topic.

 

Hope this helps

[jdp710]

Oops, sorry about that. I hope this works better

 

[jdp710]

Sorry to spam this thread again as I don't know how to edit my posts but here's another important part:

 

"it can be demonstrated that lasers produce light speckles [coherent light] or pockets of intense light within tissues"

 

This study contradicts Dr. Fellers argument that this can't take place.

[vincehair]

Sitting around combing thinning balding hair with a little laser space brush is very sad and lame to me...

[jdp710]

I agree vincehair!!!

 

That's why I don't recommend them!

[Dr. Alan Feller]

JDP,

Who do you think you're kidding?

You are really OMG.

Now we know you are fake and a shill.

I wonder how many other aliases you've made to spam the internet forums.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Actually he is Dr Feller Nice guy just set in his ways

[jdp710]

Sheesh,

 

I've told you countless times to look at the hair loss forums. I could bring up "dozens" of threads where we talk amongst ourselves You'll see me asking OMG question after question on how to build a laser device. Here's one of the first threads I talked to him!

 

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...DBTABLE=&STARTPAGE=1

 

"April 11, 2008 11:24 PM

 

Thanks OMG, I really appreciate the responses. I went ahead and ordered the ac dc adapter from that link. I can't wait to start building the comb/helmet and I also might use your idea of gutter guards from Home Depot."

 

How about this one "Question to OMG or others about $4 aixiz lasers" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21974

 

 

Do you really think I'm wasting hours of my time asking questions to myself and later answering them. In fact, there are threads where I disagree with him!

 

As for your response that OMG has a stake in laser diodes that you said at hairlosshelp look at this thread. You see clearly how nidhogge called up aixiz to see if a bulk discount exists! There are also other forum posts where other members have contacted other manufacturers for a discount too. http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=20917#107202

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Anyway,

 

I will admit, it's a nice tactic you are pulling by diverting attention away from another study that I just posted that contradicts your statements!!!

 

"it can be demonstrated that lasers produce light speckles [coherent light] or pockets of intense light within tissues"

 

This study contradicts Dr. Fellers argument that this can't take place."