jdp710

PLEASE GROW PLEASE, That's a bit harsh when I've already told you my testimonial that it works! It works better than any DHT blocker internally and externally I have ever tried and way better than minoxidil, caffeine, supplements, etc.. Anyway, I'm off this forum now. It doesn't look like anyone has anymore questions for me. And I'm sure Dr. Feller in a couple months will go back to his old statements that nobody will debate him when he won't even debate me

Hello Ceasar08, Thank you for helping me to find the answers from Dr. Alexander and Dr. Rassman. I tried navigating both of their websites but I couldn't find the exact answer. So, I went ahead and posted the question to the both of them on Dr. Feller's other thread. I can always e-mail them if they eventually don't answer. BTW, does anyone know if hair transplant surgeons who use clinical laser devices are only using the machines on their customers for only a couple weeks? The reason why I ask is because I haven't followed the progression of hair transplant surgeons recommending LLLT. I hope they are not giving it to their customers for only a couple weeks. The reason why I say is because it takes months to see improvement. I've even seen some testimonials that they won't get improvement for 6 months but in my opinion that's directly related to how many laser diodes are in the machine and other factors. Also, if you're curious I have also heard another story of clinical laser devices not producing results. However, it was due to getting too many joules causing a bioinhibition. Also, I've heard of other DIY helmets not showing much results but from every one of them, it appears they were not doing the correct treatment times ... user error. Oh, as far as my pictures. Don't forget to look at my pictures on page 4. Those pictures are the ones from a week ago. The ones on this page were from 5 weeks ago. And don't look at my hair around my hands where I'm pulling my hair back... there is little regrowth. Look at the sides of my head. And to answer your question, yeah, there is a "whole bunch" of people building their own laser helmets. It's easy Most all of them don't care to take part in debating but a lot of them will give a testimonial. If anyone wants, just go to regrowth.com and ask a question. As for making an arrangement about making one and let someone else try it out I do 100% agree that that's a good idea to test the validity. The problem is I don't have that kind of money to lend to strangers even if they are a Dr. that I don't know. Not to mention I don't need 2 laser helmets I know another forum member has posted something like that in the past ... I think he has more money than me Besides a Dr., I feel a very knowledgeable, respected and unbiased forum moderator would also work. However with me I'm eventually going to retire from every hair loss forum. Actually, I wasn't even coming to this forum to give my testimonial. My goal in coming here was to finish debating Dr. Feller as it looked like he left the debate early. Anyway about me, I'll eventually pop on and post my progress pictures, but it's "very" tiring answering everybodies questions when I don't make a penny from it. I really am posting all this out of the goodness of my heart and eventually I'll leave these forums as I've already stopped my hair loss. However, I will be sure to post progress pictures on this forum in say 2 months or so. I'll even post them weather they don't show any further improvement or not. Oh, if you're curious I've recently completed a new, better laser helmet. Here's a picture of it. It has 215 laser diodes in a hard hat. The way I treat my hair is I use it for 18 minutes and then I have to flip it over to the back of my head for another 18 minutes. Doing this actually gives me the equivalent of 430 laser diodes with no overlap. If you're curious, I very much believe, the more diodes the better. With this helmet, you wouldn't believe how much blood is flowing through your hair follicles! It's definetely nothing to do with heat but actually feels nice. Some people have described the feeling as a "head pump" and that pretty much sums up the feeling. Anyway, as for my laser device, I've actually built 6 devices before starting with as little as 34 laser diodes and I've experimented with various parameters to find out what works best. H Here's a pic of what my current laser helmet looks like on the inside if you're curious. It's ugly, but IMO it is the best laser device that you can get and it even trumps clinical laser devices by a "long" shot, in my opinion. Ugg, I have to stop typing these long threads. hope this helps

Hello, This an open ended question to both Dr. Alexander and Dr. Rassman: From my understanding you both used a clinical laser device and were not happy with the results your patients received. If you can be so kind and answer the following questions as I'm very curious why these did not work as I'm collecting this information. 1. What machine was used? 2. Did the machine have the focusing lens removed or were they still in the laser diodes? 3. How long were the treatment times for? (e.g. were they used for 20 minutes, 3 times a week?) 4. How many weeks/months did your patients use the machines before they stopped treatment? I appreciate your time to answer my questions. Thank You.

Sheesh, I've told you countless times to look at the hair loss forums. I could bring up "dozens" of threads where we talk amongst ourselves You'll see me asking OMG question after question on how to build a laser device. Here's one of the first threads I talked to him! http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...DBTABLE=&STARTPAGE=1 "April 11, 2008 11:24 PM Thanks OMG, I really appreciate the responses. I went ahead and ordered the ac dc adapter from that link. I can't wait to start building the comb/helmet and I also might use your idea of gutter guards from Home Depot." How about this one "Question to OMG or others about $4 aixiz lasers" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21974 Do you really think I'm wasting hours of my time asking questions to myself and later answering them. In fact, there are threads where I disagree with him! As for your response that OMG has a stake in laser diodes that you said at hairlosshelp look at this thread. You see clearly how nidhogge called up aixiz to see if a bulk discount exists! There are also other forum posts where other members have contacted other manufacturers for a discount too. http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=20917#107202 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, I will admit, it's a nice tactic you are pulling by diverting attention away from another study that I just posted that contradicts your statements!!! "it can be demonstrated that lasers produce light speckles [coherent light] or pockets of intense light within tissues" This study contradicts Dr. Fellers argument that this can't take place."

I agree vincehair!!! That's why I don't recommend them!

Sorry to spam this thread again as I don't know how to edit my posts but here's another important part: "it can be demonstrated that lasers produce light speckles [coherent light] or pockets of intense light within tissues" This study contradicts Dr. Fellers argument that this can't take place.

Oops, sorry about that. I hope this works better

Hello electricb, I don't mean to be rude and respond for Bill but all this information is readily available through the internet by studies. For instance this study was found by just a quick 30 second google search. "Theoretical computations indicate that lasers, LED's, and polychromatic light do not scatter and diffuse in the same manner within biological issues. Whereas longitudinal coherence, and hence the potential for a greater depth of penetration is theoretically longer with lasers, less so with LEDs. and even lesser with polychromatic light," http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/pho.2006.2...et=1&journalCode=pho Again, just do a google search and you'll find studies on this topic. Hope this helps

Hi Bill, I 100% agree with you. Also, sorry for spamming the thread with multiple posts too But, yeah, the reason for the very long threads is because there is so much misinformation that has been posted on all sides that I felt it may be better to just tackle every issue at once. But like you mentioned ... I doubt very many people are reading the posts because of it. Either way, I'll be glad to answer any questions you guys have for me for the next couple of days.

I was re-reading part of this thread and I just wanted to debunk another myth about lasers. This was posted earlier, "All laser could do is warm up the underlying tissue. Now if heat would be the solution ... why are men in Africa also balding." Just so everyone is on the same page as there is confusion on all sides about this. The heating of the tissue is not from the laser emitting heat like a light bulb as some laser skeptics would say. The heating of the tissue is from increased circulation. "Q: Does LLLT cause a heating of the tissue? A: Due to increased circulation there is usually an increase of 0.5-1 centigrades locally. The biological effects have nothing to do with heat. GaAlAs lasers in the 300-500 mW range will cause a noticable heat sensation, particularly in hairy areas and on sensitive tissues such as lips.." http://www.laser.nu/lllt/Faq1.htm#Does%20LLLT%20cause

"READ ME" Oh, BTW, for those that haven't fully followed the posts that I've made to avoid any confusion ... THOSE TESTIMONIALS ABOVE ARE "NOT" TALKING ABOUT LASER BRUSH'S. THEY ARE ALL TALKING ABOUT CLINICAL LASER DEVICES, DIY CLINICAL LASER DEVICES OR A COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE ONE THAT REPLICATES CLINICAL LASER DEVICES. I'm not yelling, I just need to post that so people can see. Also, the thread at hairlosshelp ... those people are not debating the merits of laser brush's either! I believe I know who they are and their testimonials and the debate are ALL talking about devices that replicate clinical laser devices and "NOT" laser brush's. Several of them have openly stated how much they dislike laser hair brush's too. I just want to be clear so we are all on the same page. hope this helps

jdp710 <------- just dispelling myths "on all sides" on what LLLT does ... it's a hobby of mine. Anyway, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. I'll only be on this board for a couple more days so don't cry foul when I'm suddenly gone. I'll just end with I'd recommend everyone to do some research about laser clinics and also visit one and talk to their customers too and see what they have to say. Just remember you don't have to pay their fees ... you can build a laser device yourself. All you need are a bunch of laser diodes a power supply and some electrical wiring. Here's what the common laser clinical device look like http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Laser_Hood_comparison.htm And again, for those that haven't followed my thread, I'm also not thrilled with any of those. Don't get me wrong you'll get good results with it. But DIY ones have even more potential although they'll be ugly. I just wish someone would have told me about this years ago and that's why I wrote these threads.

I should also post this article as it's relevant in the discussion between laser hair brushes not giving enough joules for a good enough photobiostimulation to take effect whereas just adding more lasers will do the trick. I actually recommend 200. You can build a device say 50 diodes and move it 4 times on your head to save cost. The problem is you'll have to move the device around to treat different parts of your head for a total of 60-80 minutes! Either way a 50 diode laser device would cost roughly $180. You can build the 200 laser one for roughly $630 and you only need to treat for 20 minutes to save time. And again, it doesn't matter where you buy laser diodes. Heck take apart several dozen DVD players for their laser diodes, lol. Anyway, here's the article, The article is titled, "Are all the negative lllt studies really negative?" "In many of these studies, analysis uncovered one or more reasons for the negative findings reported, the most common being the use of extremely low doses" http://www.laser.nu/lllt/LLLT_critic_on_critics.htm

these pictures are of my head at 4 months. For 5 month photos just crop the pictures that I posted earlier of the side of my head just as these are. I should also say for those that say I don't have significant regrowth on the sides of my head on the first photo's that I posted I completely 100% disagree and I would say you haven't been combating hair loss to understand. Yes, you'll get regrowth that can be more from DHT inhibitors like propecia and minoxidil but tell me how long your results will last before you lose it again! For those that have been combating hair loss for a long time like myself, you know what I'm talking about. BEFORE AFTER OTHER SIDE OF MY HEAD BEFORE AFTER

youngsuccess, Don't look at the area where I'm pushing my hair back as their is not that much regrowth their, but instead look on the side of my head. These are pictures of 5 months of LLLT on one side of my head. Yes, the angle is different as I'm looking down but my batteries died before i could get better and it does "NOT" make a difference anyway. I will post photos at a better angle if it's really necessary. Left side of my head BEFORE AFTER

Ceasar08, I just saw your other post about if I believe hair really did regrow and I can say without a shadow of a doubt they did. You see I've been treating hair loss for 10 - 15 years. I've tried minoxidil and DHT inhibitors a long time ago. I really am fully aware of what works and doesn't work for me. I've also said it before but the best part of LLLT is the ability to stop your hair loss and thicken your existing hairs! The regrowth aspects of it are a plus and not everybody gets that. From other testimonials your hair quality and regrowth will continue to improve. I've only been able to talk to people that have used it for 2 years and they have said they kept getting improvement even at 2 years. But again, just the ability that LLLT has in the ability to stop hair loss and thicken hairs is the most exciting part. As for anything else I used in conjuction with lasers, I use grapefruit seed extract and coconut oil internally and externally and I keep my bodies PH around 7.0. Most of the reason for it is the ability to kill demodex but that's a whole other story. BTW, I went ahead and copied and pasted testimonials from that board. I hope they don't mind me posting them here. I will say I did not post MIKE or nidhogge as they both sell laser devices. I have also not included the ones who said they didn't see results yet as they have only been using it for a short period of time ... some people can take up to 6 months or even a year ... although most people say that they see improvement at the 3-4 month mark. There was one person who has been using it for a while however, he is using getting too many joules causing bioinhibition. Also if you go back about 2 months or more you'll get even more testimonials from different people. About pictures, OMG posted his about 4 months ago if they are still on the board. One other person on that HLH forum posted his. I believe it was that forum where 2 people posted their clinical laser pictures and also that study posted earlier shows 4. Farrel on the other HLH forum posted a pictures from studies showing a paradoxical increase of hair growth around the site of hair removal. As for why there aren't other people posting theirs .... keep in mind these are all normal regular people that post on internet forums. Most people don't bother taking before pictures to prove to other people weather or not a treatment works. Say if magnesium works to stop hair loss ... most people don't start taking pictures to prove to other people. They will go buy magnesium and see if it does work. But again, go to a laser clinic and ask for photos. Ask what other treatments they are on. Here's the testimonials from regrowth.com "I am seeing results though so I am not concerned about not feeling sore" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21845 "For me it took about 4 months and my hair seemed a bit thicker. And it shed less after that time as well. 6 months the overall difusion stopped. After a year it was noticeably thicker to my wife. I finally told her I was going to the office next door to use the laser. She was skeptical, and asked how cute the girls were She knows me well! After 2 years it had overall moderate regrowth" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21716#118928 "in relation to how long laser device has been used for ... "9 months and 15 days and every damn month is better than the last!" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927 "I'm 3 months in but won't report results for 3 more... but I don't regret spending the $$$ on the helmet, if that helps. http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927 "I`m using my laser device for a month now.Got some terminal hair growth at one side,lots of new vellus hair,but too early to tell." http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927 "a little over 2-months in and while I can't claim regrowth (although I think I have some on my hair line) my hair is much more full/thick and looks healthy which gives the appearance of regrowth." http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927 "After the one month mark I noticed less hair on the pillow, and my hair seemed to be getting the thicker fuller look - ie more healthy" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21799#117927 "My [edited" 90 laser diode]now has 200 Diffused diodes and I must say I am getting better results now than I ever had in the past 2 years of using the unmodified [edited: 90 diode]. ... If you also have the serious scalp itch - the good news is that Laser should fix that for you. But you will have to keep up the treatment. 2 months after stopping the Salon treatment - my itching returned. "same person but with a laser clinic device instead of commercially bought "Approx 5 years ago I had attended a 12 month Laser treatment in a UK based salon where I yielded little or no results from the treatment. Around 1.5 years later I attended another 12 month Laser course at a different clinic - only this time I benefited immensely - with new growth, no more scalp itch and approx 40% increased thickness of existing scalp hair. I've always wondered what the difference were between the 2 salons Laser hoods. They were both the same model (Boston Laser) - and during both courses I used nothing else but the laser. So what was the difference between the 2 treatments? So recently I revisited both Salons - under the guise of enquiring about another "top up" laser course. As a previous loyal customer - both clinics allowed me to inspect the laser hoods they used and surprisingly both were the same ones they had used when I was last a client. THE RESULTS: The Laser Hood which didn't yield much results for me was using focused diodes with lenses intact .....and The Laser Hood which had given me excellent results had had all of its lenses removed - thus completely diffused. Needless to say - as soon as I got home - I removed every single lens from my diodes and I now wish I had done this along time ago!" http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21699

Dr. Feller, That is one area that I agree with you on ... You posted on the other forum of "And perhaps Hairmax is catching on, because since starting my vocal opposition of LLLT they have added a VERY interesting line of text to their before/after picture section: "Note, increases in hair counts are often not demonstratable in photos." Hairmax website quote that results are often not demonstratable in photos I'd call that a victory, wouldn't you? Compelling a multi-million dollar company to be more truthful in its marketing is a win for everybody, except them of course. It's a start." I honestly could care less about "every" hair laser brush. I'm also not that thrilled with "every" clinical laser device as I see improvement in everyone's designs but they are still OK. Either way, I'm not going to bother debating about laser light being coherent or non-coherent once it passes through human tissue. That is such a small issue in the debate that it's hardly not even worth mentioning as led and lasers both produce a photobiostimulation. And again, I understand if one maker states it's necessary but they really are arguing to the public without backing up their claims with science. Again, it's the equivalent of one hair transplant surgeon telling the public that his method is better over another hair transplant surgeons.

Oh, Ceasar08 , You said, "As for the laser machines... there is most certainly ambiguity. Dr. Rassman and Dr. Alexander have both tried the treatments in their offices. Both have stated it did nothing" I would certainly appreciate it if you or someone else could find me any quotes from these Dr.'s that used clinical laser devices stating that it did nothing as this is the first I have ever heard of this. I'm mostly interested in the model that they used and the treatment time for the patients as I have mentioned before ... If you get too many joules you'll receive a bioinhibition which means little to no results. Again, I'd greatly appreciate this. Thank You

Hello Ceasar08, To answer your questions I would say yes to all everything you said but for a few small changes. First I will not say a laser brush that has a handful of laser does nothing. Technically, you will receive a photobiostimulation at as little as .5 joules but honestly, and in my experience, I would say you'll get little results. In order to get better performance out of such a device you'll need to use it "a lot" longer than the recommended 15 minutes, etc.. You'll really need to brush your hair for a couple hours a day every day. As for Dr. Mohmand's arguments I honestly can't say I have read enough of his posts to comment of how much I believe in his thoughts. From some of his posts that I've read I can't find anything wrong with the statements he has posted. So far, it does look like he has a grasp on the science. However, I will disagree on one "MAJOR" area and that is about using a laser brush with a handful of laser diodes being effective. Heck, I would even say I place myself in Dr. Feller's corner in his belief that you won't receive cosmetically significant hair regrowth from a laser brush that has a handful of 5 mw diodes!!! I'll even say that in my opinion that buying a laser brush that costs hundreds of dollars is a big rip off. You can build a laser brush yourself with 6 lasers for $40!!! So yes, I would say to Dr. Mohmand that in my opinion any hair brush that has a handful of 5 mw diodes is not powerful enough. The whole problem I have is when opinions are stated as fact and also when statements are pure false such as what has been posted about LLLT not increasing oxygen, microcirculation, we aren't plants, lasers can't penetrate to the hair follicle, laser light becomes red light once it touches a thumb, photobiostimulation is a myth, infrared laser diodes is the equivalent of a heat lamp, etc.. Again, my point in comming here is that nobody should post misinformation and that's what I'm trying to dispell. Nothing more. As for you statement weather or not a hair transplant surgeon holds any weight about if LLLT I would absolutely say that absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind that they DO NOT HOLD WEIGHT! The only ones that hold weight are the ones that have either tried it themselves, have talked to others that have tried it, have been in the same office for customers that have tried it, are a worker for a laser clinic, have researched the science of LLLT ... well you get it. My point is, just because someone is a Dr. does not mean they hold weight if LLLT works. As for your comment about the poster that sells laser devices you're actually referring to nidhogge. He actually sells a DIY laser helmets and "NOT" laser brushs as it's a big difference. Here's a pic of one of his helmets at this thread. http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums/viewthread.cfm?f=1&t=21654 So again, he's not arguing for laser brush's but are arguing in favor of laser helmets/hood aka laser clinical devices. Actually, I believe I know each poster that posted the positive comments and they are "all talking about clinical laser devices and not brushes." As for posts OMG on regrowth also posted his a couple months ago. I believe they are still up on the board. And about the statement about minoxidil or an internal DHT inhibitor such as Propecia or even a topical DHT inhibitor. I'll give my personal experience and I'll say I'll never go on DHT inhibitors ever again and minoxidil did more harm than good. If they don't cause side effects or trash your hair, at best, you are just buying yourself some time with these treatments and there are better alternatives but that's for another story. And from all the testimonials that I've read, and in my own experience, I would say the sunetics survey is accurate. Just think about it too. If you think they were going to be biased, don't you think they would have included a % of how much regrowth occured, etc.. And yes, if you go to a laser clinic it is expensive but in the long run it's "way" more expensive than a hair transplant? Just say that the average clinic charges $4,000 dollars a year x 50 years. Well, that's a lot of money! BTW, you have to keep using lasers your whole life to keep the quality of your hairs otherwise they'll eventually decline. Laser clinics will say that you can reduce the amount of times you have to treat your hair but in my opinion, and from testimonials, this is false! And again why people don't know about laser clinics I can throw out some ideas that caused this ... 1. Stigma ... how many men go to a "salon" type of atmosphere to get their hair treated? Mostly women ... and yes, women benefit too. 2. Lack of understanding ... Look at all the people that don't understand the difference between a laser brush and a clinical laser device. Most people figure they can buy a laser brush and it is the same results or almost the same results. It's not. I've said it before but in the beginning their were laser clinics getting very good results. Then laser brush's came and it just stopped laser clinics in it's early stages. I can go on and on but it really isn't needed and this post is getting pretty long. The bottom line is go to a laser clinic yourself. Talk with the customers to see what kind of results they are getting and how it compares to other treatments. I hope I answered your questions, if not feel free to ask me again.

Sorry for spamming this thread, but to answer your other question about Q. "If a treatment that has been around for years grows hair, then why isn't everyone seeing it." A. Keep in mind I don't believe there is a single person that ever figured out how to make these clinical laser devices until "roughly" 1 year ago. Not to mention the price of these laser diodes were a lot more expensive but now they are affordable due to China and the cost of technology aging causing a lower price. Back to the point though ... So what you had were laser clinics who said you have to give us thousands of dollars a year or you can't use it. Guess what happens when that happens. You don't get a large percentage of the population that can afford to go to a laser clinic. Either that, or they can't afford to go to a laser clinic for longer than a couple years. Yup, that's the complaint former laser clinic customers. They eventually stopped going otherwise they would become bankrupt. But don't take my word for it. A lot of this information and testimonials are located at Regrowth.com You can got to overmachogrande.com to learn how to build your own.

Oh, if I didn't answer your question of I'll go ahead and answer it here again. Q. "Let me ask you... what do you think would happen if we posted a thread asking patients to come forward and share their experiences with LLLT? If we found one thousand people who have undergone treatment, what percentage do you believe would claim to have had success?" A. From the other people that I've talked to that sunetics survey is "very" accurate. Again, I'm not talking about laser brush's but clinical laser devices. Here's the survey for those that haven't seen it. http://www.sunetics.com/default.aspx?ctxt=clinicalstudies "The 2005 Clinical Client Survey of 375 people participating in the Sunetics Laser Hair Therapy program showed that: 78% had an appearance of Thicker hair 76% had an appearance of Fuller Hair 64% had an appearance of Shinier Hair 86% had an appearance of Healthier Hair 85% Perceived that their hair looked better 84% were Pleased with the program" And if you want to talk to other people on another forum you can always visit Regrowth.com and you can even go through previous posts in the past. I would post previous testimonials here but I don't feel it's appropriate for the people that didn't give me consent. Again, visit regrowth.com and scan through the information or even post a question like "Are lasers for real" as someone ends up posting one of those every other month anyway You can also visit hairlasertalk.com but there isn't much traffic and you'll have to register.

Ceasar08, Oh, if I didn't fully answer your question please let me know as I tried the best to answer your question directly. But to sum it up ... the whole confusion with LLLT came was when laser brush's came to the market. The reason why I'm here is not because Dr. Feller says it can't work, as that's just his opinion who's never tried it before. I'm not even here for the people who have gone to a laser clinic and talked to customers who weren't happy. But I'm here to educate others understand the differences between laser brushs and clinical laser devices and to let other people know about it. I'm not even sure how many people here know about clinical laser devices? You see, Dr. Fellers arguments that LLLT can't work because laser light can't get deep enough to hit the hair follicles or it instantly turns to regular red light is 100% false. I've repeatedly refutted this evidence ... here's another one posted by another forum member,PavlovsKat on hairlosshelp http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...68&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE= "Well, actually, dr Feller, there is an interesting little experiment proving that laser light remains coherent, but instead of tissue paper it involves meat, and it's called "Hode's hamburger". It's an experiment first performed by Lars Hode, a renowned Swedish scientist, at the Ninth Congress of the International Society for Laser Surgery and Medicine in Los Angeles in 1991. Allow me to quote from his book ("The laser therapy handbook", a very extensive book about laser, citing 1400 studies!, p344): "Anyone with a laser can conduct this experiment. 1. Press newly minced fresh beef, e.g. raw hamburger meat, between two glass plates so that you have a 5 -10 mm thick slab of minced beef. 2. Aim the light from a 5 - 10mW HeNe or InGaAIP-laser (red visible light with a wavelength of 633 nm) at the glass plates with the minced beef slab [...]. You can see a red spot on the back of the minced beef where the light has penetrated. 3. Next, place a small penlight torch beside the laser and put its front end against the surface of the glass. The torch emits normal white light. This light also penetrates the minced beef and forms a light spot besides that caused by the laser. The spot from the penlight torch is also red, even though the torch emits white light. This is because the white light's blue, green and yellow colour components are absorbed, and only the red component penetrates. 4. Now study both the red light-spots on the back of the slab from a distance of a few metres. The laser light spot shows clear laser speckles which you can see if you slowly move your head. The spot from the torch light has no laser speckles. We can draw the following conclusions from this experiment: A. Both light spots are red after their passage through the meat. This shows that red light has the best penetration of the visible light wavelengths. Measurements using instruments show that infrared radiation penetrates even better. B. The coherence of the laser light does not disappear. The laser speckles can be clearly seen, and it is obvious that there is a difference between laser light and the light from a torch. This physical difference characterising the light after its passage through tissue can explain at least some of the research results mentioned above. "

Hello Ceasar08, Thank you for joining the debate. I'm not sure how much any of you guys on this thread have read but there are is a "very" long thread at hairlosshelp that I keep linking to. I really do recommend for other to read that whole thread to help with the understanding of LLLT in the treatment of hair loss. As for answering your questions I have not followed everything that the other Dr.'s have recommended in their treatment but from my brief understanding of each Dr. they recommend laser combs!!! That's the problem. In this thread I've tried repeatedly to let everyone know that laser brush's = little results. I've also used a laser brush too and just like everyone else I got ... little results. But like I've mentioned in the past don't forget where laser brush's first got the idea from? Yup, clinical laser devices. The best analogy that I can give you at this time is ... think of yourself trying to give yourself a tan with a small UV bulb. Well, you'll be using it for a "very" long time to get a tan. Guess what happens when you lie in a tanning booth. Yup, you can get yourself a tan no problem. That's the same thing with laser brushes vs clinical laser devices. Another analogy is if you want to get a tan when you are outside in the sun but you only sit in the sun for a minute or two. Well, of course you won't get a tan. But if you lie down for 30 minutes you'll have your tan. Even further, another analogy would be if you want laser hair removal with an underpowered laser. Yup, you'll get ... little results. What I'm trying to get is laser brush's are dramatically underpowered in order to get the recommended 3 - 6 joules. As for ambiguity, IMO there is none. You'll have people like Dr. Feller who will come on and say that lasers = no results. Or people that can't grasp the difference between a laser brush and a clinical laser device. They aren't even in the same boat, IMO, as again, you'll need way more lasers to get the best photobiostimulation. Just look at this study "with 4 Joules/cm2 having the greatest effect on wound healing (Mester et al, 1973; Mester et al, 1989)." http://www.spectramedics.com/llltinfo.htm Heck, for all those people that still have their laser combs go ahead and brush your hair for 2 hours every day for 5 months and you'll notice that you'll way better results over the standard 15 minute, 3 times a week treatment. All I'm saying is that if anyone is serious about hair loss they should go see to a laser clinic and talk to the customers. They'll share their experiences. They'll probably even share their before pictures. However, you don't need to pay the thousands of dollars per year that they ask you to pay. You can build your own for just a couple hundred bucks and in turn you'll have a "very" high success rate of being happy with the treatment. What's the harm in that. I'm sure most people on hair loss forums have spent a heck of a lot more on DHT inhibitors and minoxidil. Also don't forget that what I posted in the past about nitric oxide and minoxidil since most all Dr. will state minoxidil works. "Also, "NO [nitric oxide] is a ubiquitous transmitter which has identical effects to minoxidil on blood vessels." http://www.mn.st/baldfaq.htm I forgot where I posted that study but if my memory serves me right laser light increases nitric oxide production by 250%! And again, don't forget I'm talking not talking about laser brush's! So you can't equate my results of getting 5 joules to laser brush's results of my guess of .1 joules! If you actually talk to other people on the forums you'll actually get a lot of testimonials from former laser clinical customers. I've talked to quite a lot and their experiences are similiar to mine. Even on hairlosshelp on that thread with Dr. Feller their are 8 testimonials right there. Again, not laser brush testimonials but people getting around 5 joules! I've also seen their before and after pictures. Feel free to visit regrowth.com and you're free to talk to "many" people that are doing it. And again, don't take anyone's word for it on the internet. Go visit a laser clinic. And I know I've said it several times, lol, but, go to hairlosshelp on that thread, in the studies that Farrel posted you'll see how 10% or something received a paradoxical increased hair growth around the site of laser hair removal. And this is just treating with no more than a handful of times. Think of what happens when you get the proper joules and you treat for long periods of time. Yup, cosmetically significant results. And BTW, don't forget in that LDS study that the other Dr. posted, you'll see 4 people's photos that were posted in that study and also somewhere around 150 from laser clinic's on hairlosshelp. I hate sounding like a broken record, but go visit a laser clinic to see pictures. Don't take my word for it.

Dr. Feller, Let me also remind you of how Vitamin D gets created from sunlight before you will go back to your argument that photobiostimulation doesn't exist because .... we aren't plants. "Photo-biostimulation The idea of biological changes from the stimulation, or biostimulation, of light is actually nothing new. This so-called photo-biostimulation is how vitamin D is produced in our bodies when ultraviolet rays in the sunlight strike the skin." http://www.hlahc.com/news06.html

Dr. Feller, You said, "LLLT skeptics reject the junk-science of "photobiosimulation". We are not plants!" It seems while you won't acknowledge photobiostimulation/photobiomodulation with 1500 studies proving it, with many doctors practicing it and even wikipedia also posting it on their site, you are still set in your old ways. You really are starting to sound like the Doctors who years ago dismissed acupuncture!!! I have posted dozens of studies in this thread and the other one showing how lasers increase hair growth. Look at all the studies that Farell posted showing a paradoxical increase of hair around the sites of IPL (laser) treatment and laser hair removal. Look at all the studies that I posted. Just think what happens when you get the proper joules and when you treat long enough? Oh that's right. I'll spare the research as I've already posted my pictures and everyone has already given you their testimonials! Not to mention you also have that LDS 100 Study! When you ask me to explain how, I cite the references showing: 1. increased oxygen 2. increased microcirculation/nitric oxide leading to a more efficient way of removal of toxins and debris and transportation of nutrients to your hair follicle 3. reduced inflammation 4. increased superoxide dismutase. And again, this has been posted in hair loss studies too and other studies that are double blind! I think it's time for you to start citing your "studies" ... even double blind studies as I have before refuting the evidence that LLLT doesn't improve your hair quality and even lead to regrowth! "Photobiomodulation , also known as low level laser therapy ( LLLT ), cold laser therapy , and laser biostimulation , is an emerging [medical] and [veterinary] technique in which exposure to low-level [laser] [light] or [light emitting diodes] can stimulate or inhibit cellular function leading to beneficial clinical effects. The technique is also known by the more ambiguous terms phototherapy and laser therapy , which may also be used to describe other medical techniques. The "best" combination of wavelength, intensity, duration and treatment interval is complex and sometimes controversial with different diseases, injuries and dysfunctions needing different treatment parameters and techniques. These are still being explored and increasingly published by the academic community. History In 1967 a few years after the first working laser was invented, Endre Mester in [semmelweis University] experimented with the effects of lasers on skin cancer. While applying lasers to the backs of shaven [mice] , he noticed that the shaved hair grew back more quickly on the treated group than the untreated group. Clinical applications Clinical applications include treating [soft tissue injury] , [chronic pain] , [wound healing] , [tinnitus] and [nerve] regeneration, and possibly even resolving [viral] and [bacterial] [infection] s. One clinical application showing great promise is the treatment of inflammation, where the anti-inflammatory effect of location-and-dose-specific laser irradiation produces similar outcomes as NSAIDs, but without the potentially harmful side-effects." http://en.mobile.wikipedia.org/transcode.php?go=Photobi...e179f28410f07f09d7b2