jdp710

Here is another picture of a laser clearly showing "coherent light" through a Viva paper towel. And once again, I've already stated that LED's "ALSO" produce photobiostimulation/photobiomodulation when done in the correct joules. It's just lasers are a lot more effective due to their speckles/coherent light. Would you like me to explain why coherent light is more effective over noncoherent light in most all situations?

I posted this on the other debate we have with Dr. Feller but I figure it's relevant for everyone to see. For those that aren't aware here's the other debate we have going http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...id=81568&STARTPAGE=1 Dr. Feller wrote, "The fact is that laser light will not reach the follicles as laser light-which ... The laser light will ALWAYS disperse upon contact and collapse to regular red led light. Nothing more. I look forward to your video presentation." Geez, I have "repeatedly" posted that info and you haven't even read it!!! THIS IS GETTING VERY OLD VERY FAST DR. FELLER!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Q: Does the coherence of the laser light disappear when entering the tissue? A: No. The length of coherence, though, is shortened. Through interference between laser rays in the tissue, very small "islands" of more intense light, called speckles occur. These speckles will be created as deep as the light reaches in the tissue and within a speckle volume, the light is partially polarized. It is easy to show that speckles are formed rather deep down in tissue and the existence of real speckles prove that the light is coherent." http://www.laser.nu/lllt/Faq1.htm NOW DO YOU WANT ME TO "REPOST" HOW FAR LASER LIGHT WILL TRAVEL IN YOUR HAIR FOLLICLES "AND" HUMAN TISSUE!!! Dr. Feller you said "Why don't you repeat my experiment and show us how laser light remains coherent through tissue paper?" Well here you go. I did your experiment and guess what laser light does show speckles/coherent light!!! This was also done through a VIVA paper towel which is some of the thickest paper towels you can buy!!! picture cropped

http://www.laserlightcanada.com/articles.php

Here's just small list showing photobiostimulation. Play particular attention to the area of inflammation as the last time I check it was an important area in treating MPB. If you'd like I will also repost my studies showing increased amounts of oxygen, microcirculation due to nitric oxide production and increased levels of superoxide dismutase. ALL OF WHICH IS GOOD FOR YOUR HAIR! And one thing I will agree with is that yes Dr. Feller is correct in that hair transplant surgeons also recommend LLLT for hair loss. Here's one such example: "LLLT seems to increase the quality and presentation of existing hairs" http://www.hairtransplanttechnicians.com/new-techniques...air-restoration.html Use of Low Level Lasers in Temporomandibular Joint (TMJ) Disorders > Management of Mouth Opening in Patients with Temporomandibular Disorders through Low-Level Lase... > Effectiveness of Low-Level Laser Therapy in Temporomandibular Joint Disorders: A Placebo-Contro... > Efficacy of Low Level Laser Therapy in Myofascial Pain Syndrome: An Algometric and Thermographi... > Arthralgia of the Temporomandibular Joint and Low Level Laser Therapy > Treatment of Temporomandibular Joint Pain with Diode Laser Therapy > Can Low Reactive-Level Laser Therapy be Used in the Treatment of Neurogenic Facial Pain? A Doub... > Laser Application Effects on the Bite Strength of the Masseter Muscle, as an Orofacial Pain Tre... > Treatment of Temporomandibular Joint (TMJ) Pain with Diode Laser Therapy > Low Level Laser Therapy with Trigger Points Technique: A Clinical Study on 243 Patients > Low Intensity Laser Therapy (LILT) For Temporomandibular Joint Pain: A Clinical Electromyograph... > Plasma ACTH and ??-Edorphin Levels in Response to Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) For Myofascial... > Low-Level Laser Therapy in the Management of Disorders of the Maxillofacial Region > Pain Scores and Side Effects in Response to Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Myofasical Trigg... The Use of Low Level Lasers in Wound Healing *NEW* Effect of Low-Level Laser Therapy on Mast Cells in Second-Degree Burns in Rats *NEW* A Comparative Study of the Effects of Laser Photobiomodulation on the Healing of Third-Deg... *NEW* Effects of Laser Therapy on Experimental Wound Healing Using Oxidized Regenerated Cellulos... *NEW* Effectiveness of Laser Photobiomodulation at 660 or 780 Nanometers on the Repair of Third-... *NEW* Influence of Broad-Spectrum and Infrared Light in Combination with Laser Irradiation on th... *NEW* Comparison Between the Effect of Low-Level Laser Therapy and Low-Intensity Pulsed Ultrason... *NEW* Effects of Laser Therapy on Experimental Wound Healing Using Oxidized Regerated Cellulose ... *NEW* Polychromatic LED in Oval Full-Thickness Wound Healing in Non-Diabetic and Diabetic Rats > Low Level Laser Therapy Enhances Wound Healing in Diabetic Rats: A Comparison of Different Wave... > Low-Level Light Stimulates Excisional Wound Healing in Mice > In Vitro Exposure of Wounded Diabetic Fibroblast Cells to a Helium-Neon Laser at 5 and 16J/cm2 > Low-Level Laser Therapy Enhances Wound Healing in Diabetic Rats: A Comparison of Different Lase... > Photobiomodulation on the Angiogenesis of Skin Wounds in Rats Using Different Light Sources > Comparison between Wound Healing in Induced Diabetic Nondiabetic Rats after Low Level Laser The... > Histological Assessment of the Effect of Laser Irradiation on Skin Wound Healing in Rats > The Efficacy of Laser Therapy in Wound Repair: A Meta-Analysis of the Literature > Comparison of the Photostimulatory Effects of Visible He-Ne and Infrared Ga-As Lasers on Healin... > Effect of Different Wavelengths of Low Level Laser Therapy on Wound Healing in Mice > Influence of Low Level Laser Therapy on Wound Healing and its Biological Action upon Myofibrobl... > Polarized Light (400-2000 nm) and Non-ablative Laser (685 nm): A Description of the Wound Heali... > Effect of NASA Light-Emitting Diode Irradiation on Wound Healing > Increased fibroblast proliferation induced by light emitting diode and low power laser irradiat... The Use of Low Level Lasers in Pain and Inflammation > Photobiomodulation of Pain and Inflammation in Microcrystalline Arthropathies: Experimental and... > Can Low Reactive-Level Laser Therapy be used in the Treatment of Neurogenic Facial Pain? A Doub... > Steroid Receptor Antagonist Mifepristone Inhibits the Anti-inflammatory Effects of Photoradiati... > Photoradiation in Acute Pain: A Systematic Review of Possible Mechanisms of Action and Clinical... > Can LLLT Substitute NSAIDS, Analgesics and Steroid Injections in Arthritis, Tendinopathies and ... > LLLT in Acute Pain, A Systematic Review of Mechanisms > Efficacy of Low Level Laser Therapy in Myofascial Pain Syndrome: An Algometric and Thermographi... > Low Level Laser Therapy in Musculoskeletal Pain Syndromes: Pain Relief and Disability Reduction... > Efficacy of Low Reactive-Level Laser Therapy for Pain Attenuation of Postherapetic Neuralgia > Clinical Trial of Low Reactive-Level Laser Therapy in 20 Patients with Postherpetic Neuralgia > Mechanisms of the Analgesic Effect of Therpeutic Lasers In Vivo > Report on a Computer-Randomized Double-Blind Clinical Trial to Determine the Effectiveness of t... > A Double-Blind Trial of Low Reactive-Level Laser Therapy in the Treatment of Chronic Pain > The Effect of Infra-Red Diode Laser Irradiation on the Duration and Severity of Post-Operative ... > Effects of the Ga-As Laser Irradiation in Myonecrosis Caused by Bothrops Moojeni Snake Venom > The Use of Laser Therapy in the Treatment of Inflammation through Lymphatic Drainage > Retrospective Study of Adjunctive Diode Laser Therapy for Pain Attenuation in 662 Patients: Det... > Nociceptive Scores and Endorphin-Containing Cells Reduced by Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) in ... The Use of Low Level Lasers in Medicine *NEW* Infrared Laser Light Further Improves Bone Healing When Associated with Bone Morphogenetic... > Burn Healing with a Diode Laser: 670nm at Different Doses as Compared to a Placebo Group > Effects of 670-nm Phototherapy on Development > Transcranial Application of Low-Energy Laser Irradiation Improves Neurological Deficits in Rats... > Methylene Blue-Mediated Photodynamic Therapy: A Possible Alternative Treatment for Oral Lichen ... > Spontaneous Effects of Low-Level Laser Therapy (650nm) in Acute Inflammatory Mouse Pleurisy Ind... > Effect of Laser Therapy on Bone Tissue Submitted to Radiotherapy: Experimental Study in Rats > Antiinfectives and Low-Level Light: A New Chapter in Photomedicine > Treatment of Chemotherapy-Induced Oral Mucositis with Light-Emitting Diode > Effects of 830nm Laser, Used in Two Doses, on Biomechanical Properties of Osteopenic Rat Femora... > Photoengineering of Bone Repair Processes > Photoengineering of Tissue Repair in Human Cases of Recalcitrant Diabetic Ulcers > Impact of Laser Therapy in the Quality of Life of Patients with Head and Neck Cancer undergoing... > Prevention and Treatment of Oral Mucositis with Diode Laser 660nm in Patients with Head and Nec... > Temperature-Controlled 830-nm Low-Level Laser Therapy of Experimental Pressure Ulcers > Preoperative Activation of the Immune System by Low Reactive Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) in Onco... > Usefulness of Low-Level Laser for Control of Painful Stomatitis in Patients with Hand-Foot-and-... > Effect of 830-nm Laser Light on the Repair of Bone Defects Grafted with Inorganic Bovine Bone a... > Effect of Low-Intensity Laser Irradiation on the Process of Bone Repair > Low-Level Laser Therapy Accelerates Collateral Circulation and Enhances Microcirculation > Protection of Skeletal Muscles from Ischemic Injury: Low-Level Laser Therapy Increases Antioxid... > Helium-Neon Laser in Viability of Random Skin Flap in Rats > Spontaneous Effects of Low-Level Laser Therapy (650 nm) in Acute Inflammatory Mouse Pleurisy In... > Evaluation of Low Intensity Laser Effects on the Thyroid Gland of Male Mice > Assessment of Bone Repair Associated with the Use of Organic Bovine Bone and Membrane Irradiate... The Use of Low Level Lasers in Implants and Orthodontics *NEW* Infrared Laser Light Further Improves Bone Healing When Associated with Bone Morphogenetic... *NEW* Low-Level Laser Irradiation Promotes Prolieration and Differentiation of Human Osteoblasts... > Histologic Comparison of Light Emitting Diode Phototherapy - Treated Hydroxyapatite-Grafted Ext... > Effect of Low-Intensity Laser Irradiation on the Process of Bone Repair > Assessment of Bone Repair Associated with the Use of Organic Bovine Bone and Membrane Irradiate... > Effect of 830-nm Laser Light on the Repair of Bone Defects Grafted with Inorganic Bovine Bone a... > Photoengineering of Bone Repair Processes > The Effect of GaAlAs Diode Laser on Extraction Wound Healing > Infrared Laser Photobiomodulation (?????» 830nm) on Bone Tissue Around Dental Implants: A Raman Spe... > Photoradiation and Orthodontic Movement: Experimental Study with Canines > Effects of Low-Intensity Laser Therapy on the Orthodontic Movement Velocity of Human Teeth: A P... > The Use of Biostimulative Laser for Pain Reduction during Fixed Orthodontic Treatment > Infrared Laser Light Reduces Loading Time of Dental Implants: A Raman Spectroscopic Study Physiotherapy and Low Level Lasers *NEW* Low-Power Laser Treatment in Patients with Frozen Shoulder: Preliminary Results *NEW* The Combined Treatment Effects of Therapeutic Laser and Exercise on Tendon Repair > Can LLLT Substitute NSAIDS, Analgesics and Steroid Injections in Arthritis, Tendinopathies and ... > Comparative Study of How Low-Level Laser Therapy and Low-Intensity Pulsed Ultrasound Affect B... > Comparative Study Using 685-nm and 830-nm Lasers in the Tissue Repair of Tenotomized Tendons in... > Photobiomodulation of Pain in Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: Review of Seven Laser Therapy Studies > Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) on Knee Osteoarthritis: A Clinical Study on 386 Patients > Comparing the Effect of Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) and Physiotherapy on Knee Osteoarthritis... > The Repair of Bone Defects Submitted or not to Laser Photobiomodulation (?????»830nm) and Bone Graf... > Effects of Phototherapy on Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness > Successful Management of Female Office Workers with > Therapeutic Low Energy Laser Improves the Mechanical Strength of Repairing Medial Collateral Li... > Efficacy of Low Power Laser Therapy and Exercise on Pain and Functions in Chronic Low Back Pain... > Irradiation of Arthritis with 820nm and 830nm Diode Lasers > Efficacy of Different Therapy Regimes of Low-Power Laser in Painful Osteoarthritis of the Knee:... > Treatment of Medial and Lateral Epicondylitis - Tennis and Golfer's Elbow - With Low Level Lase... > The Use of Low Level Laser Therapy in Meniscus Repair > Ultrastructural Comparison of Medial Collateral Ligament Repair After Single or Multiple Applic... > Effects of a Therapeutic Laser on the Ultrastructural Morphology of Repairing Medial Collateral... > The Effect of Low Level Laser Irradiation (630 and 810 nm) on Fracture Healing in Rat Tibia > Non-Invasive Laser Neurolysis in Carpal Tunnel Syndrome Neurology and Low Level Lasers > Laser Phototherapy (780nm), a New Modality in Treatment of Long-Term Incomplete Peripheral Nerv... > Low Level Laser Therapy in Paraesthesia of Inferior Alveolar Nerve and Lingual Nerve Post Surgi... > Preliminary Study of Low-Level Laser for Treatment of Long-Standing Sensory Aberrations in the ... > Promotion of Regenerative Processes in Injured Peripheral Nerve Induced by Low-Level Laser Ther... > Efficacy of 780-nm Laser Phototherapy on Peripheral Nerve Regeneration after Neurotube Reconstr... > Effects of Power Densities, Continuous and Pulse Frequencies, and Number of Sessions of Low Lev... > Low-level laser Effect on Neurosensory Recovery after Sagittal Ramus Osteotomy > Effect of Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) on Inferior Alveolar, Medial and Lingual Nerves after ... > Low Reactive-Level 830nm GaAlAs Diode Laser Therapy (LLLT) Successfully Accelerates Regeneratio... > Laser Therapy in Post Herpetic Neuralgia > Light Promotes Regeneration and Functional Recovery and Alters the Immune Response After Spinal... > Neurological Rehabilitation by Phototherapy > Alteration in Gene Expression Following Spinal Cord Injury and Photo-Biomodulation > Low Power Laser Irradiation Alters Gene Expression of Olfactory Ensheathing Cells In Vitro Editorials > Mitochondria, Mice and Men Dentistry and Low Level Lasers > Effect of GaAlAs Laser on Reactional Dentinogenesis Induction in Human Teeth > Effect of Low-Energy Laser Application in the Treatment of Denture-Induced Mucosal Lesions > Low Level Laser Therapy in Paraesthesia of Inferior Alveolar Nerve and Lingual Nerve Post Surgi... > Therapeutic Effects of Low Level Laser in Periodontal Surgery > The Effects of GaAlAs Diode Laser on Extraction Wound Healing > The Combined Effectiveness of the Semiconductor Laser with Duraphat in the Treatment of Dentin ... > Low Level Laser Therapy for Dentinal Tooth Hypersensivity > Effect of Irradiation by Semiconductor Laser on Responses Evoked in Trigeminal Caudal Neurons b... > Preliminary Study of Low-Level Laser for Treatment of Long-Standing Sensory > Low-Energy Laser Therapy in Oral Mucositis > Low Level Laser Therapy as a Diagnostic Tool in Dentistry > Microbial Reduction in Periodontal Pockets Under Exposition of a Medium Power Diode Laser: An E... > Fungicidal Effect of Diode Laser Irradiation in Patients with Denture Stomatitis > Effect of the Clinical Application of the GaAlAs Laser in the Treatment of Dentine Hypersensiti... > Comparative Analysis of the Effects of Biostimulative Laser Treatment and Conventional Treatmen... > Effect of Low-Level Laser Therapy on Candida albicans Growth in Patients with Denture Stomatiti... Biomedical Effects of Low Level Laser Therapy *NEW* Elementary Processes in Cells after Light Absorption Do Not Depend on the Degree of Polari... *NEW* Low-Level Laser Irradiation Promotes Proliferation and Differentiation of Human Osteoblast... > Pro- and Anti-Inflammatory Cytokine Content in Human Periperhal Blood after its Transcutaneous ... > The Effects of Laser Irradiation on Osteoblast and Osteosarcoma Cell Proliferation and Differen... > Photobiomodulation on the Angiogenesis of Skin Wounds in Rats Using Different Light Sources > In Vitro Exposure of Wounded Diabetic Fibroblast Cells to a Helium-Neon Laser at 5 and 16 J/cm?????... > Ga-As (808 nm) Laser Irradiation Enhances ATP Production in Human Neuronal Cells in Culture > Effect of Multiple Exposures of Low-Level Laser Therapy on the Cellular Responses of Wounded Hu... > Clinical and Experimental Applications of NIR-LED Photobiomodulation > The Biomedical Effects of Laser Application > Killing of Carcinogenic Bacteria by Light from a Gallium Aluminum Arsenide Diode Laser > Photodestruction of Human Dental Plaque Bacteria: Enhancement of the Photodynamic Effect by Pho... > Quantitation of Calcitonin Gene-Related Peptide mRNA and Neuronal Cell Death in Facial Motor Nu... > Oral Bacteria in Multi-Species Biofilms can be Killed by Red Light in the Presence of Toluidine... > Effect of Low-Power Laser Irradiation on Cell Growth and Procollagen Synthesis of Cultured Fibr... > Low Level Laser Irradiation Enhances Expression of FoF1-ATPase Subunit-b Gene in Osteoblastic C... > Interaction of Laser and Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) Molecule > Stimulatory Effect of Laser Irradiation on Calcified Nodule Formation in Human Dental Pulp Fibr... > Low Energy Laser Irradiation Promotes Cellular Redox Activity > Exact Action Spectra for Cellular Responses Relevant to Phototherapy > Green light emitting diode irradiation enhances fibroblast growth impaired by high glucose leve...

Dr. Feller, I have clearly shown that laser light doesn't not lose it's properties once it strikes your skin!!! I have also clearly shown that laser light will reach your hair follicles!!! This clearly refutes your "video" that this cannot take place. Dr. Feller, go back and reread what I have posted. Tell me why you still stand by your decision with this overwhelming evidence!?!? And again Dr. Feller you said, "There is no evidence that lasers cause beneficial metabolic changes nor provide nutrients and oxygen." And I've responded with multiple studies showing this opinion to be wrong. It's called photobiostimulation/photobiomodulation! Here's another study to disprove your "opinion." On my my next thread I will show just a small sample of the 1500 studies on photobiostimulation and quite a lot of the studies are double blind too! "The present study supports the hypothesis that one mechanism for the photobiostimulation effect after irradiation at 660 nm is the reaction of light with hemoglobin, resulting in oxygen radical production." http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/73501387/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 And once again, I have posted MY photo's and you still dismiss them on the other thread saying "no photos from posters who ACTUALLY received LLLT benefits THEMSELVES." Please explain why you have said this? AND AGAIN, ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?!?!

Here is a website to help anyone that wants information on how to build their own. www. overmachogrande.com Here is the calculation I talked about earlier to get the necessary joules. It is very long. And again, from studies that have been cited before you need roughly 3 - 6 joules which is what the laser clinics shoot for. ----------------------------------------------- "Calculating Laser and Treatment Parameters Laser diodes are generally operated at or below the laser diode manufacturer's recommended maximum optical output power rating of, say, 100mW, to ensure maximum stability and long diode life. It is this rating which is usually used to state the output power of a laser therapy unit. It is necessary, for accurate dosage control, to know the actual optical output power emitted from the laser probe at the aperture. Check with the manufacturer or use an output power meter suitable for the wavelength of the laser in question. Laser Therapy devices are generally specified in terms of the average output power (milliwatts) of the laser diode, and the wavelength (nanometres) of light they emit. This is necessary information, but not enough with which to accurately define the parameters of the laser system. To do this, one must also know the area of the laser beam (cm2) at the treatment surface (usually the tip of the handpiece when in contact with the skin). If the output power (mW) and beam area (cm2) are known, it is a reasonably straight-forward exercise to calculate the remaining parameters which allow the precise dosage measurement and delivery. The output power of a laser, measured in milliwatts, refers to the number of photons emitted at the particular wavelength of the laser diode. Power Density measures the potential thermal effect of those photons at the treatment area. It is a function of Laser Output Power and Beam area, and is calculated as: 1) Power Density (W/cm2) = Laser Output Power (W) Beam area (cm2) Beam area can be calculated by either: 2) Beam Area (cm2) = Diameter(cm)2 x 0.7854 or: Beam Area (cm2) = Pi x Radius(cm)2 The total photonic energy delivered into the tissue by a laser diode operating at a particular output power over a certain period is measured in Joules, and is calculated as follows: 3) Energy (Joules) = Laser Output Power (Watts) x Time (Secs) It is important to know the distribution of the total energy over the treatment area, in order to accurately measure dosage. This distribution is measured as Energy Density (Joules/cm2). "For a given wavelength of light, energy density is the most important factor in determining the tissue reaction"(Baxter, 1994). Energy Density is a function of Power Density and Time in seconds, and is calculated as: 4) Energy Density (Joule/cm2) = Laser Output Power (Watts) x Time (Secs) Beam Area (cm2) OR: Energy Density (Joule/cm2) = Power Density (W/cm2) x Time (Secs) To calculate the treatment time for a particular dosage, you will need to know either the Energy Density (J/cm2) or Energy (J), as well as the Output Power (mW), and Beam Area (cm2). First, calculate the Output Power Density (mW/cm2) as per Equation 1, then: 5) Treatment Time (Seconds) = Energy Density (Joules/cm2) Output Power Density (W/cm2) or: Treatment Time (Seconds) = Energy (Joules) Laser Output Power (Watts) Finally: Laser Output Power (Watts) = Laser Output Power (mW) 1000 " http://www.spectramedics.com/llltinfo.htm

Hello Bill , Thank you for allowing me to be here. I went ahead and posted this on the other forum but I figure it would also help in the understanding of LLLT "As far as any controversy surrounding lllt please keep in mind that in the beginning there were laser clinics that charged thousands of dollars a year that showed significant improvement for hair loss. Then companies decided, hey, lets see if we can get in on the action and laser combs were created in the thinking that, "well, maybe less diodes will bring the cost down for the average person to afford it while still giving results." Unfortunately, that's where lllt for hair loss took a nose dive!!! Their thinking proved wrong and laser combs started to earn the reputation as a scam, in my opinion. The reason why laser combs don't work for the vast majority (in my opinion speaking as a former laser comb user) is because you need around 3 - 6 joules for a bio-stimulatory effect to dramatically affect hair loss. With laser combs, you'll be brushing your hair for a very long time to get that 3 - 6 joules. So fast forward to today. You still have laser clinics that are charging thousands of dollars a year with laser customers noticing an 78% improvement in the thickness of their hair ... see sunetics survey earlier in the thread. But now, due to China and the lower cost of laser diodes you can now get laser diodes "very" cheap. You can now build a device for $250 that rivals clinical lasers. The only problem is the average consumer still sees lllt as a scam, IMO, due to the laser brushes that hit the market. The average person on these boards just has not realized that they can build there own clinical laser device for just a few hundred bucks! And then you have people like Dr. Feller who are stuck in the old ways of laser brushes who just don't understand lllt and make claims that lllt doesn't work, WHEN THEY HAVEN'T EVEN TRIED IT THEMSELVES! And again, don't take my word for how well lllt works. Go to a laser clinic. Talk to the customers. Even ask how it compares to rogaine/propecia." And to help bring this forum up to speed, these are the commonly used laser clinical devices that have been getting very good results that I referred to in the above paragraph. http://www.konftec.com/html/Compare/Laser_Hood_comparison.htm And I know I've said it before but I believe it's very important for me to say again. I don't work for a hair loss company or laser device company. I will in no way benefit if someone uses or buys lasers. The reason why it's important for me to state that is because Dr. Feller accusations that I'm not "grass roots." You see, I got my start into building my own laser device that has the equivalent of 201 diodes because I've heard positive comments on the internet about LLLT. I'm not talking about laser combs as they are too underpowered in my opinion to 3 - 6 joules which is the power commonly cited to get the best results. I will post the calculation in another post so that I don't muddy the waters of this post. And if anyone is curious, yes, I have tried a laser brush before with little results when compared to my homemade laser device that I built. As for posting pictures on the internet I don't work for a laser clinic so I don't have access to other people's photographs. All I can do is post my own photographs. One very important thing to keep in mind with LLLT is the ability to thicken your existing hairs and stop hair loss. I'm not saying everyone is going to get results, but what I am saying is that, in my opinion, when getting the proper joules and wavelength, you'll have a very good chance of it. I also base this opinion from talking to dozens of other forum members on a completely unrelated forum than the one I cited earlier and these other people have built or bought their own laser device or used a clinical laser device in the past several of which I have seen their own before and after photos. I should also say that pictures will have an incredibly hard time capturing this thickness without someone like Dr. Feller crying foul on every single photo that has been posted before. If you go to the thread where this debate is also occuring you'll see before and after pictures which are from laser clinics. But again, don't take my word for it. And don't even take other people's words for it either. What I say is just go to your local laser clinic and talk to the customers. I'm sure they will be able to show you their before pictures too.

I posted this on the other forum that discounts Dr. Feller's science. I figure some of you would be interested as well so I'll post the information here as well. Here's the link to the other forum. http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...id=81568&STARTPAGE=1 Dr. Feller, I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR ARGUMENT? You are saying LLLT doesn't work because one company says that 940 nm light is more effective than 650 nm light. While the other company says they that, no, 650 nm light is more effective than 940 nm light. I've already explained this to you before that it's common practice for one maker to use 940 nm light over 650 nm light. If you look at this, you'll see that 3 out of the 7 common commercially available clinical laser devices use 940 nm light http://www.konftec.com/html/Compare/Laser_Hood_comparison.htm DR. FELLER, THEY BOTH CREATE A PHOTOBIOSTIMULATION/PHOTOBIOLODULATION EFFECT!!! PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT ANY OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE EFFICACY OF LLLT?!?! And Dr. Feller, I keep asking questions but you never answer them directly. Instead, you keep changing the subject to something unrelated. Let's please keep this discussion of LLLT efficacy on track! Dr. Feller, You posted this earlier, "HairBeam uses 5 infra-red LED lasers plus 2 LED's. Infra-red can't be seen by the human eye . but it's far more energetic than the visible red light lasers other's may use. In fact ordinary visible red-light lasers don't do much good at all in stimulating hair growth." and said this on your other thread you created and then said in response to "Your reference to infrared hair growth quackary does not support your position that red lasers work." Please read this study and please tell me why neither infrared or near infrared laser light does not work?!?! Visible red wavelengths (~620-690 nanometers) - shallow penetration - superficial tissue treatment, eg. wound healing, superficial APs, acne, etc.; Infra-red wavelengths (~760-1260 nanometers) - deeper penetration - deeper tissue treatment, eg. musculoskeletal injuries, sports therapy, deeper APs and myofascial TPs, also wound healing,etc; http://www.spectramedics.com/llltinfo.htm "The 670 and 692 visible lasers caused a higher improvment in cell proliferation that the infrared lasers. ... It also confirms that visible red is the best wavelength for suferficial wound healing." http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:_MHGinqgAYYJ:www.l...&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us And I'll go ahead and make a second post for you to get back on track of the debate! You said, "There is no evidence that lasers cause beneficial metabolic changes nor provide nutrients and oxygen." And I've responded with multiple studies showing this opinion to be wrong. It's called photobiostimulation/photobiomodulation! Here's another study to disprove your "opinion." "The present study supports the hypothesis that one mechanism for the photobiostimulation effect after irradiation at 660 nm is the reaction of light with hemoglobin, resulting in oxygen radical production." http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/73501387/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 Also you said, " As my video clearly demonstrates, the moment the laser strikes the skin it instantly looses it's laser properties and from that point on acts like regular monochromatic light coming from a standard LED." This statement again is false. Please read this: "Q: Does the coherence of the laser light disappear when entering the tissue? A: No. The length of coherence, though, is shortened. Through interference between laser rays in the tissue, very small "islands" of more intense light, called speckles occur. These speckles will be created as deep as the light reaches in the tissue and within a speckle volume, the light is partially polarized. It is easy to show that speckles are formed rather deep down in tissue and the existence of real speckles prove that the light is coherent." http://www.laser.nu/lllt/Faq1.htm And I've posted this before but I'll post it again as YOU STILL NEVER ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!!! "You've also implied that you can't get laser light to your hair follicles and I disagree. I'll just site another link for you to read to help with your understanding, "The light gets weaker and weaker the further from the surface it penetrates. There is, however, a limit at which the light intensity is so low that no biological effect of the light can be registered. This limit, where the effect ceases, is called the greatest active depth. In addition to the factors mentioned above, this depth is also contingent on tissue type, pigmentation, and dirt on the skin. It is worth noting that laser light can even penetrate bone (as well as it can penetrate muscle tissue). Fat tissue is more transparent than muscle tissue. For example: a HeNe laser with a power output of 3.5 mW has a greatest active depth of 6-8 mm depending on the type of tissue involved. A HeNe laser with an output of 7 mW has a greatest active depth of 8-10 mm. A GaAlAs probe of some strength has a penetration of 35 mm with a 55 mm lateral spread. A GaAs laser has a greatest active depth of between 20 and 30 mm (sometimes down to 40-50 mm), depending on its peak pulse output (around a thousand times greater than its average power output). If you are working in direct contact with the skin, and press the probe against the skin, then the greatest active depth will be achieved."http://www.laser.nu/lllt/Faq1.htm#How%20deep%20into%20the%20tissue%20can Dr. Feller please explain why you still believe your prior statements are still valid!?!?

Dr. Feller, I still don't understand some of the posts that you make! You claim that I'm lying when I post scientific studies backing up my claims, however, "none" of your opinions are backed with scientific studies. And then in parts of your thread you state, "But where in the world are the LLLT proponents to educate me?" For example you previously posted this comment in this thread, "There is no evidence that lasers cause beneficial metabolic changes nor provide nutrients and oxygen." This statement is obviously false and I've tried to explain the process through studies and not by opinion but your only answer to this process is that it's "junk science." Here's just one such example to show a basic flowchart of lllt in general to help with your understanding http://www.laserdarmani.com/news.php And once again, there is no need to, "get a physicist to come on here" as all this information is readily available through the studies that are posted on the internet. For example, in this thread you said, "No, it wouldn't matter if you could deliver laser light directly to the follicles even if you could. We are NOT plants!" I really don't know where to start with this statement as there are over 1500 studies showing that photo bio-stimulation does take place. I posted links with over 600 studies on the other forum we discussed earlier. You've also implied that you can't get laser light to your hair follicles to get this photo bio-stimulation to take place and I disagree. I'll just site another link for you to read to help with your understanding, "The light gets weaker and weaker the further from the surface it penetrates. There is, however, a limit at which the light intensity is so low that no biological effect of the light can be registered. This limit, where the effect ceases, is called the greatest active depth. In addition to the factors mentioned above, this depth is also contingent on tissue type, pigmentation, and dirt on the skin. It is worth noting that laser light can even penetrate bone (as well as it can penetrate muscle tissue). Fat tissue is more transparent than muscle tissue. For example: a HeNe laser with a power output of 3.5 mW has a greatest active depth of 6-8 mm depending on the type of tissue involved. A HeNe laser with an output of 7 mW has a greatest active depth of 8-10 mm. A GaAlAs probe of some strength has a penetration of 35 mm with a 55 mm lateral spread. A GaAs laser has a greatest active depth of between 20 and 30 mm (sometimes down to 40-50 mm), depending on its peak pulse output (around a thousand times greater than its average power output). If you are working in direct contact with the skin, and press the probe against the skin, then the greatest active depth will be achieved."http://www.laser.nu/lllt/Faq1.htm#How%20deep%20into%20the%20tissue%20can But whenever anyone posts anything that contradicts your statement you comment, "The physics in the videos is 100% solid and need no "backing up"" or " "I have already said that my video demonstration is beyond interpretation and that it speaks for itself." As for your statement you've made in the past that where it appears you refute all these scientific studies by stating that this can't possibly take place and, "If you want to convince me that LLLT is for real ... simply show me consistent photos of cosmetically signfiicant benefits derived from LLLT." However, another forum member showed you dozens and dozens of pictures that are, "cosmetically significant benefits" including my own, and just on that one thread there are 8 people that have given their testimonials that they happy with their results! I'm not sure why all our testimonials and pictures are discounted. If those testimonials and/or pictures aren't enough, I would recommend that you walk into the closest laser clinic by you, and ask the customers how they feel they have benefited. If you don't want to go down to the laser clinic then feel free to read this survey of 375 people. "http://www.sunetics.com/default.aspx?ctxt=clinicalstudies The 2005 Clinical Client Survey of 375 people participating in the Sunetics Laser Hair Therapy program showed that: 78% had an appearance of Thicker hair 76% had an appearance of Fuller Hair 64% had an appearance of Shinier Hair 86% had an appearance of Healthier Hair 85% Perceived that their hair looked better 84% were Pleased with the program" As for your comments earlier in the thread on HLH I can assure you I am 100% "grass roots" as you describe. If you read my other posts about 6 months ago, you'll notice where I was asking all sorts of questions on how to build my own laser device. So you'll clearly see that I am "grass roots." If you're wondering why I support lllt I would like to remind you that I 100% believe in helping other people in their battle to fight hair loss or than just telling people to get a hair transplant. I've found a product that works for me that happens to have a "very" high success rate where dozens and dozens of people on another forum are also happy with the results too! All I say is that anyone can build their own laser hood/helmet for around $250 that has the potential to rival clinical laser devices, IMO, which people have been spending thousands and thousands of dollars per year on. And again, I wanted to say it again as I feel it is very important to say; in the past I have used a laser comb and I received disappointing results when compared next to my 201 laser device. The reason for it, in my opinion, is because you need the proper 3 - 6 joules for the proper photo bio-stimulation to take place. With a laser comb that has a handful of laser diodes, you'll be brushing your hair for a "very" long time to get that 3 - 6 joules. Thank You, jdp710

Dr M Humayun Mohmand, Here's more studies if your intersted. http://www.palmbeachglamhair.com/Reported%20Studies%20o...in%20Hair%20Loss.pdf Reported Studies of LLLT in Hair Loss (Man & Woman) Professor Andre Mester (1964) In 1964, Professor Andre Mester began experimenting with the use of low-power laser energy in Budapest, Hungary. He observed that low energy laser exposure has a stimulating effect on the biological system, while high-energy laser exposure had an inhibiting effect. In his experiments with wound treatment on mice, he noticed rapid healing due to microcirculation of blood supply. This healing was also obvious in laser light treatment of diabetic patients suffering with dystrophic sores. He was amazed to find sores that would not otherwise heal were healed, and he also observed accelerated hair growth and thickening of hair in the treated areas. This theory through its evolution has since been refined and is widely becoming one of the most popular non-invasive hair loss treatments. Laser researcher Dr. J. Layton Wright states: ... "Laser Hair Therapy increases microcirculation of the hair follicle, which allows nutrients and freshly oxygenated blood to access the hair follicle with the results being a stimulation of the natural hair growth cycle." Dr. Trelles (1984) In 1984, Dr. Trelles showed in one study that patients with alopecia areata who were treated with He-Ne laser 632,8 nm showed a good response. Dr. Trelles reported that most of the patients with alopecia areata responded well after only 6 to 8 treatments administered twice a week for a couple of weeks. The He-Ne laser was placed 30 centimeters from the alopecia areata with dosages ranging from 3-4 Joule per sq. cm. No fibres or lenses were used. In the same study, microscopic evaluation of the hair shaft structure on the alopecia areata irradiated areas showed a clear medulla rich in keratin after treatment. Daily treatments appeared to prevent regrowth, causing irritation with probable increase in hair loss. Japan Laser Therapy Association (1992) At the 4th annual Meeting of the Japan Laser Therapy Association in 1992, success was reported with an increase in both hair growth and the density of the hair follicles in the laser treated areas of both male and female stress alopecia and alopecia areata with only one failure out of 40 cases reported in two papers. Laser Conference, Helsinki Finland (1993) An unpublished study presented at Laser Conference, Helsinki, Finland 1993 shows the effect of LLLT on Androgenetic Alopecia. A double-blind comparative study with placebo laser for treatment of Hereditary Androgenetic Alopecia in young males was presented in Helsinki 1993 describing the positive effect of LLLT treatments on hair growth, stop of hair loss and hair shaft tensile strength. At the Helsinki Laser Conference research results demonstrating the effect of LLLT compared to a placebo group was presented. It was found that hair re-growth was clearly shown in the laser group. In addition all patients, with the exception of one, in the laser-treated group showed a complete stop of hair loss. All patients, except 3, showed a clear hair re-growth of hair with a reduction of at least one category in the Hamilton classification. Post-treatment showed the dermis with almost the same amount of hair follicles as pretreatment, although a number of new follicles could be seen with clearly noticeable hair growth. 50% of the follicles are now in the anagen phase (growth). When comparing the histological findings, transformation into anagen hair follicles could be observed in 83% of the patients on laser treatment but in none of the placebo patients. Out of 18 patients, 14 showed an increase in hair thickness, and all 18 showed improvement in general hair shaft quality measured with the hair stretcher. The results showed no improvement in the placebo group or any adverse effects of the treatment. Prof. Pekka J. P?¶ntinen (1996) Professor P?¶ntinen is one of the pioneers of LLLT in Scandinavia thorough theoretical and practical studies on how to apply low level laser therapy in the treatment of chronic, especially musculoskeletal and myofascial pain and dysfunction, vascular disturbances, wound and ulcer treatment etc. Prof. Pekka J. P?¶ntinen established the beneficial effect of Laser Hair Care?® on scalp blood flow and published his results in 1996. The effects of hair lasers on skin blood flow were measured on three different devices to establish the effect of scalp blood flow. The hair lasers used were Laser Hair Care (670 nm ), a He-Ne (632.8 nm ) laser containing one laser transferring light via fibres and lenses to the patient and a laser identical to the Laser Hair Care where the lasers were replaced (placebo). The differences in the laser systems are illustrated by the fact that Laser Hair Care increased scalp blood flow by 54%. The He-Ne hair laser had no effect while the Placebo decreased flow rate by 36%. In addition, the skin temperatures measured before and after the treatment showed little change. European Studies (1997) In 1997 a European group of scientist's published their work on LLLT in the treatment of alopecia of the scalp. The authors tried to verify the efficacy of low energy laser (LLLT) in scalp alopecia. Sixty patients were divided in two groups: A) laser group, 33 patients treated with both LLLT and classical therapy; B) control group, 27 patients treated only with classical therapy, Before, during and after treatment, historical samples were done. For the group A the results were rather superior but in a twice shorter time shorter time than group B. The maintenance of the good results needed classical therapy for a long period. They conclude that LLLT therapy could have a useful complementary method for the treatment of scalp alopecia. The same European group of scientist's published their findings on LLLT use in the treatment of alopecia and crural ulcers in 1998. The authors tried to verify the efficacy of LLLT in scalp alopecia and crural ulcers of different causes. Laser used was (red diode, continuous emission, 8 mW power, wave length 670 nm spot size about 5 mm diameter on some points. They also use as control classical therapy. Before, during and after treatment, histological samples were taken from alopecia regions. For the laser groups (alopecia and ulcers) the results were rather superior and in a three or twice time shorter than the control group. They conclude that LLLT therapy is a very useful complementary method for the treatment of scalp alopecia and crural ulcers.

Dr. Feller, I'm posting this in this forum as it appears you may not be returning to the debate at this thread after your comment of "School's out." http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...DBTABLE=&STARTPAGE=7 I understand this thread is more geared towards the debate over laser combs but on our other thread we are talking about receiving the correct photo bio-stimulation effects of 3 - 6 joules which is what's given on clincal laser devices with hundreds of laser diodes! So I don't want to muddy the waters on this thread by posting too much and confusing the readers so I ask again if you could please come back to the thread. For those that aren't aware I will make some "very brief" about lllt that dismisses Dr. Fellers opinions. A. "We have tested a range of laser modules and examined the depth of penetration using electron microscopes. 630-660nm laser circa 5mW penetrate part way to the root of the hair. 20mW laser modules penetrate below the hair follicle to stimulate the hair follicle ROOTS which extend below the base of the hair follicle" http://www.aculas.com/comparison.htm B. You wanted evidence so I have posted many studies. For example I have posted a lot of these on the other thread but later you refuted by claiming it "junk science" even though there are 1500 studies ""The Following is a Sampling of Physicians, Organizations, and Professors Who Have Published Articles on the Positive Effects of Low Level Light Therapy. Hair Retention and Re-growth: Japan Laser Therapy Association (1992) Laser Conference, Helsinki Finland (1993) Professor Pekka J. Pontinen (1996) Multiple European Studies (1997) International Society of Hair Restoration Surgeons (2001) American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery (2002) Italian Society of Hair Restoration Surgery (2002) American Academy of Cosmetic Surgery (2002) Dr. Glenn Charles (2003) John L. Satino & Dr. Michael Markou (2003)" http://www.folicorhtc.com/LLLT.html C. You also mentioned something along the lines that all light once it hits the skin becomes red light ... or something to that affect. My response is as follows: "there is a specific influence of coherent light on a system of particles (cells in a biological system) which is based on the action of gradient forces originated by speckle structure of laser field inside the illuminated object." "1. Apart from a photochemical mechanism of light action on biological systems there exist more universal physical mechanisms based on interactions of light induced dipole moments of particles between themselves and with electrical component of light field. Both laser and non-laser light can produce biological effect via these mechanisms. 2. Laser light is the most efficient at action on biological systems. At that linearly polarized laser light is expected to produce better effect than nonpolarized or circularly polarized one. 3. Non-laser light can also produce biological action but of smaller efficiency than the laser one and only in case if it is linearly polarized. " http://www.laser.nu/lllt/lllt_editorial13.htm D. I later gave "some" of the reasons why lllt would work by increased amounts of superoxide dismutase and nitric oxide but I never heard a reply back discounting why this would not affect hair loss: "SOD's - Also known as Super Oxide Dismutase, these hair loss treatments work by handling the immune response which occurs as a result of excessive DHT in the follicle. When cells sense a foreign body, they release Super Oxide, which typically help defend the body against invading viruses, cells, and foreign tissues. SOD's reduce the presence of this Super Oxide, thus reducing the body's desire to reject the follicle. It's yet another "angle" proven to work in fighting hair loss. SOD's are kind of a hybrid treatment because they also have growth stimulation properties, as well as anti-inflammatory properties." http://www.hairlaserremoval.co.uk/hair-loss-treatments-solutions.htm "Among other beneficial things, SODs appear to help spare growth-stimulating nitric oxide, reduce damaging inflammation, and help reverse fibrosis (follicular scarring that impedes the follicle's ability to grow hair). There are a few patents for SODs as hair growth stimulators"http://www.hairlosstalk.com/faq/#8 and here's the short answer for nitric oxide "Nitric oxide is a vasodilator that appears to be important for hair growth" http://www.hairlosstalk.com/faq/#8 Also, "NO [nitric oxide] is a ubiquitous transmitter which has identical effects to minoxidil on blood vessels." http://www.mn.st/baldfaq.htm E. You asked for photographic evidence and 4 were posted in the LDS 100 study that another poster posted followed by dozens of others by laser clinics. One forum member offered his pictures but I'm not sure if you received them. I also posted my pictures which I'll include right here but later you implied there is no difference with your comment of "I don't think any person who didn't specifically know what they were looking at would know that there was a cosmetic difference." Here are my photo's for anyone that's interested. Right Side of my head, 33 yrs old Before After Left Side of my head, 33 yrs old Before After And BTW for anyone that is interested I have zero affiliation to any laser therapy device and I don't work for any hair loss company. And if anyone is curious these are photos that show 5 months worth of difference treating with the equivalent of 201 diodes which I should be receiving around 5 joules of photo bio-stimulation. With a laser comb you'll have to be brushing your hair for a very long time to receive that many joules. So again I ask, Dr. Feller can you return to that other forum so we can finish debating lllt in hair loss, as one of the last statements you made before leaving was "School's out." Thank You, jdp710