Bill - Seemiller Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Hoping, I am quite familiar with HIPAA laws and know that without their patient's consent, a doctor is bound by patient/doctor confidentiality. However, what you may not know is that all of the patients I mentioned above had at one point posted their concerns publicly, some of which posted them for the first time on this thread. Additionally, most if not all of them were willing to give Dr. Epstein the permission to share his side of the story, at least, at the time of their initial posting. In fact, to be fair to physicians along with patients, patients who share their experiences publicly may be required to give their doctor the permission to post about their case. See Maintaining a Safe and Fair Environment on our Forum for Both Patients and Physicians. I do agree though that as long as each patient case was handled appropriately and a resolution that is fair to both patient and doctor was constructed, that speculation is unfair. But what we don't know, is how these circumstances that were once made public by each patient were resolved. And since these concerns had been made a community issue, my questions were an attempt at learning how these situations were or will be resolved. After all, even the best surgeons who provide consistent quality results can't bat a thousand. Thus, it's how patient concerns are handled that makes a surgeon excellent, not perfection. Though admittedly, I think the community has some continued concerns about Dr. Epstein due to the number of reported concerns over a short period of time. If the patient members who have originally posted their concerns publicly don't want continued discussion of their circumstances online and/or are no longer giving Dr. Epstein the permission to share his side of the story, I agree that these wishes ought to be respected. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 12, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 12, 2009 I love how a couple of posters here continue to swing on doctors nuts like Tarzan when they also have NOT met the doctor. I also laugh at how another one worships this doctor that will not be affected one bit by this yet doesnt give a damn about these poor guys/ girls that were affected by all this These 6/7 patients were verified by Dr Epstein as being his patients. This was all in a years time . These are not some made up people as all this was discussed behind the scenes. Ask Bill Im sure he can verify this Go back and research really hard and see before you give Dr Epstein another online reach around. I cant understand for the life of me guys so worried about a millionaire doctors reputation but shun the poor guys /girls that went through this. One of the guys posters on this thread that I wont mentioned was butchered so bad that he had chin hair put on his head yet has no compassion for these patients. If these were just some guys posting lies I could understand but these are real people that have been verified. Remember one thing Im on here for patients ONLY, not so sure about some others that have responded Just like mall security guys want to be police officers , I think some posters that won a 3rd place ribbon for the game operation in the 4th grade dream about being a doctor. Have some fricken compassion guys. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member wylie Posted April 12, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 12, 2009 Originally posted by PLEASE GROW PLEASE:I love how a couple of posters here continue to swing on doctors nuts like Tarzan when they also have NOT met the doctor. I also laugh at how another one worships this doctor that will not be affected one bit by this yet doesnt give a damn about these poor guys/ girls that were affected by all this These 6/7 patients were verified by Dr Epstein as being his patients. This was all in a years time . These are not some made up people as all this was discussed behind the scenes. Ask Bill Im sure he can verify this Go back and research really hard and see before you give Dr Epstein another online reach around. I cant understand for the life of me guys so worried about a millionaire doctors reputation but shun the poor guys /girls that went through this. One of the guys posters on this thread that I wont mentioned was butchered so bad that he had chin hair put on his head yet has no compassion for these patients. If these were just some guys posting lies I could understand but these are real people that have been verified. Remember one thing Im on here for patients ONLY, not so sure about some others that have responded Just like mall security guys want to be police officers , I think some posters that won a 3rd place ribbon for the game operation in the 4th grade dream about being a doctor. Have some fricken compassion guys. . Keep digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 12, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 12, 2009 Sorry man but I didnt mention it was you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member generic1 Posted April 13, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted April 13, 2009 Originally posted by Hoping:Medicine is an art not a science. I know what you're getting at, but this is not definitionally true. "Medicine" is, literally, applied science. "Surgery" can have elements of art insofar as "art" is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses. But the relative proportions of facial measurements to hairline are quantifiable and fairly objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Hoping Posted April 14, 2009 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 Medicine may be applied science, but the fact is that medicine cannot predict how any individual is going to react to any given treatment. That's why it is also an art. . . trying to figure out what is going on and how best to deal with a particular situation. Medicine simply at this point does not have a good enough understanding of the underlying science of the human body for it to be anything more than an art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Hoping Posted April 14, 2009 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 Grow, you keep bringing up these six or seven individuals with bad results. I know of only one for sure that I have found on these boards. Can you name the others so I can read their stories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheEmperor Posted April 14, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 I read this post with interest, but wasnt saying that the patient had psychological problems and being taken care of by his mother irrelvant? Seems like it was undermining the guys credibilty. My Hair Loss Web Site - Hair Transplant with Dr. Wong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Mr. GQ Posted April 14, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 art or science - it doesn't matter really. we are talking about hair transplantation and that's just what it is.... an HT. as long as it's being performed with the innermost and outmost care and patient is THE #1 and not the money, then it can be whatever you want it to be. anyone can paint it and spin it to their likening but in the end it is what it is - just an HT, nothing more nothing less. some doctors/clinics are better than the others when it comes to performing/doing it. that's a fact. just like any other profession or sport or anything else for that matter where the talent and skills are being examined and scrutinized through the magnifying glass. and yes this job requires more of the artistic touch than the scientific one IMO and yes i respect anyone that has dedicated their life and their career to this field and pours their heart and soul just to make some of us happier in our everyday lives. my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 14, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 Ask Bill if Im wrong about these concerns . I really dont care about Epstein anymore. Someone complained that I was mean to them on this thread so Im done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member generic1 Posted April 14, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 "medicine cannot predict how any individual is going to react to any given treatment" Sure it can, within a fairly close range, and it does so all the time. Otherwise, what's the point of testing treatments at all? That's why it is also an art. . . trying to figure out what is going on and how best to deal with a particular situation. I think you're confusing "art" with "estimation". Medicine simply at this point does not have a good enough understanding of the underlying science of the human body for it to be anything more than an art. This has not been true since about the end of the 17th century. Just because a field of study does not have complete predictive power, like say, higher mathematics, it does not then follow that that thing is therefore "art". We can't say for sure what the effects of Viagra are going to be in advance, but we can get pretty close a majority of the time. That's why we hypothesize, test, and draw conclusions. But performing surgery and curing disease and prescribing medication is not art. Theater is an art. There's a difference, and anything less than a clear division lets practitioners off the hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member thanatopsis_awry Posted April 14, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 There is an ulterior motive to actively want to love Epstein if you aren't concerned by his performance and patient-care at this point. And I find it very hard to believe you would answer the title of this thread with an Honest & Emphatic Yes and sign yourself up without any major concerns. I notice he dodges Bill's legitimate inquiry, once again, as well -- the 2nd or 3rd time that I can distinctly recall in recent memory. ----------- *A Follicles Dying Wish To Clinics* 1 top-down, 1 portrait, 1 side-shot, 1 hairline....4 photos. No flash. Follicles have asked for centuries, in ten languages, as many times so as to confuse a mathematician. Enough is enough! Give me documentation or give me death! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Hoping Posted April 14, 2009 Author Senior Member Share Posted April 14, 2009 Let me put it this way, if you are diagnosed with a disease such as cancer, you will find that ten doctors might have ten different opinions about how to treat it. Even whether to treat with chemotherapy or what type is often a guess. I'm not talking about the routine things most doctors treat, colds - broken buns, minor burns, I am talking about life threatening illness here. For all the money poured into things like cancer research, there is still a heck of a lot that science doesn't know and an incredible lack of knowledge by individual doctors for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member NewHairNow Posted April 15, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted April 15, 2009 Originally posted by Hoping:Medicine is an art not a science. While I agree that hairline placement requires certain artistry skill from a doctor, saying medicine is not a science can't be serious. Hoping, you must be joking right? along with all the ridiculous comments you had made so far in this thread. If there is such thing as a synonymous for science, it would be medicine. I am starting to question you real motive now about starting this thread. Are you really asking for feedback regarding Dr. Epstein work or you were just trying to promote Dr. Epstein, not knowing that it backfired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Sonia Posted April 15, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted April 15, 2009 I have to second TheEmperor's comment. I don't mean to put Dr. Epstein on the spot but I just can't help but comment. You have no right to post such personal information about glajo. Being very depressed after a bad HT is very common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member CuriousJungleGeorge Posted April 16, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 16, 2009 Remember guys dont stress about your hair to much cuz it will make it fall out faster. Peace! That should be the motto of this forum -- lol. Anyway, I did find it strange to read Dr. Epstein's presentation of your situation. Concerning it and the image he posted, I think we find ourselves at a difficult line (no pun intended): Doctors might freely be attacked or challenged by former patients. We expect them, in turn, to respond. What, however, is an appropriate reply. Indeed, posting any personal information about a patient (including photographs) without his or her consent, feels wrong; but, what will be the defense, then? I'm not claiming to have an answer; I just think there's a legitimate question present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TC17 Posted April 16, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 16, 2009 I don't want this to come across as defending Dr. Epstein or any doctor for that matter, but, if Dr. Epstein is doing as poor of a job as this topic would indicate, why is he still recommended on this forum? The only thing I can surmise is that A. these are the exceptions to his usual work, B. the HTN is not ensuring that the physicians are maintaining the standards necessary for recommendation, or C. HTN does ensure that the physicians continually meet the high standards but have not yet made a decision on Dr. Epstein in particular. - Bill, could you please elaborate on how the HTN ensures that a physician continues to perform excellent transplants? For example, I recently expressed an interest in Dr. Tykocinski, but noticed that Pat's visit to his clinic was almost 4 years ago. There is very little information on him available, and the dozen or so pictures I have found are not enough for me to trust my head to him. How do we know that he is still performing tremendous results? I'm particularly curious because the topic of this thread is "Is Dr. Epstein still among the best". Reading older posts, it seems that Dr. E enjoyed a great reputation just a few short years ago, but, this post would indicate that he no longer does. Assuming arguendo that Dr. E has "lost his touch", how are we to know that other doctors, with a lower profile, haven't lost their touch as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member CuriousJungleGeorge Posted April 16, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 16, 2009 Good point. Of all the coalition doctors, only a handful are really "prominent" names on this forum (e.g., Dr. Feller, Dr, Rahal). It's dubious the rest are worse than these stars, but if a review on any of them is years old, how can we be comfortable with him or her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member generic1 Posted April 16, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted April 16, 2009 What TC17 said. It seems his status in limbo. "Under review." This review process appears to be a case where Bill just needs a few more data points in order to identify a trend. It's very frustrating for everyone involved. I was this close to choosing Epstein earlier this month, but this thread spooked me. I'd specifically like to know more about the alleged "6-7 cases." And I'd certainly invite anyone to email me privately with stuff they feel uncomfortable displaying publicly. Seeing is believing for me. I'd really love for the whole issue to be resolved, or at least have it be resolved that it's going to be unresolved. (Which is the same as a tacit no-vote, in my opinion.) I have a hard time believing that a top surgeon could suddenly go bad, but at the same time, anything less than a categorical endorsement from Bill speaks volumes and I trust the majority opinion of this community explicitly. Is he a good doctor or not? Whether he was good in the past is immaterial once you're under the knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 16, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 16, 2009 All Ill say is that he was and is a good surgeon. Not sure why he has had these complaints but I blame the techs ,2/3 patients a day ,and the flying between clinics. The aftercare as far as communication seems very poor also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 TC17, You weren't a member of this community yet when Dr. Epstein was suspended due to a number of reported public and private poor growth issues. However, after garnering feedback from the patient and physician members of this community, we reinstated him since the majority felt the reported issues were most likely the exception to his usual positive results. Recently however, many of you have reported doubts as to whether or not this is still true. Many of these older cases have been reported publicly and can be found using the "find" feature. No reported legitimate concerns were removed from this forum or our blogs. Dr. Epstein is still a member of the Coalition. However, Pat and I are aware of the more recent reported concerns and we are watching these situations closely. Ultimately, patients do have to understand that no doctor bats a thousand. But it's providing consistent quality results and handling patient concerns fairly and amicably that makes a great doctor. Therefore, the concerns here should rest on whether or not Dr. Epstein is still providing the high standards of care that our community expects from Coalition doctors. At this point, we are watching these recent reported concerns closely to see how they unfold. We certainly don't want to make decisions in haste, but trust me when I say that we are being vigilant. Best wishes, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill - Seemiller Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Glajo, I know you told me privately that Dr. Epstein didn't have your permission to post your photos. However, recognize that now that you're making your concerns public, that it's only fair to give him the permission to discuss your case and present the information he has, including photos. This of course, doesn't excuse the fact that he did this without your consent, but in order to be fair and allow discussion of your case publicly, please give Dr. Epstein the permission to share his side of the story. I'd also ask that if you are going to share your story publicly, that you create your own thread to share your experience and photos. This thread goes beyond the scope of your case and I think your case should have it's own topic. Thanks, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TC17 Posted April 17, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 17, 2009 Bill, I appreciate you guys taking the time to investigate these concerns and if you find that Dr. E is not up to par I fully support the decision to remove his recommendation. However, again I ask, how are we to know that the less "popular" doctors are still producing results that warrant recommendation on this forum? It would seem as though each doctor on here performs at least 250 surgeries per year, yet we only see a dozen or so pictures from a vast majority of the physicians. Is there anyway to compel the physicians to begin posting more work? Can you ask that each physician have a minimum of 100 or so pictures for us to look at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member generic1 Posted April 17, 2009 Regular Member Share Posted April 17, 2009 I agree that a standard minimum number is a great suggestion, but a 100 seems excessive, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member PLEASE GROW PLEASE Posted April 17, 2009 Senior Member Share Posted April 17, 2009 100 would be nice but Id be happy for 20 and Pats visit. I would however demand 1 grown out and 1 or 2 immediate postops a month even if the clinic has to offer a slight discount to the patient for his consent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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