NBC's TODAY Show reporting on Hair Growth Treatments

[Bill - Seemiller]

bezane,

 

I am not suggesting that it works...I'm asking for more research.

 

I'm only stating that I don't want to make statements that have no proof or validity either way. I will NOT recommend the product at this time UNTIL THERE IS PROOF, which may never happen. I've said that before...read above. BUT, I still will state that I'd be interested in seeing any research that points out that it does work, whether it be laser therapy or something else.

 

I think having an open mind is imperative to research...period. That's the whole point of what I'm stating.

 

Nobody here is trying to "make nice" with any doctors, at least I certainly am not and could care less. If you have actually read some of my posts, you'll see that I've challenged and disagreed with the best of them and told them as such through countless debates. Read more and learn more about this community before you start insulting everyone's intelligence.

 

Bill

[DrBauman]

New, Peer-Reviewed Scientific Report (April 2007): Hair Growth Stimulation in Laser Hair Removal Patients. Physicians from Spain report that over 10% of 543 hair removal patients experienced hair stimulation from a laser hair removal treatment. This phenomenon occurred within the treated area and also in area adjacent to the treated area. It is postulated by the physicians in the report that 'sub-therapeutic' energy that was delivered to the area induced terminal hair growth. They identified the most important 'risk' of this unwanted, paradoxical terminal hair growth as the 'presence of fine hair growth' within the treated area. (p.300)

 

Scientific reports such as these give us some clues as to which hereditary hair loss patients might be a good candidate for laser hair therapy.

 

Follow this link to download the .pdf version of the published report: http://baumanmedical.typepad.com/follicleblog/2007/05/ipl_hair_remova.html

 

 

Lasers in Surgery and Medicine 39:297-301 (2007) "Hair Stimulation Following Laser and Intense Pulsed Light Photo-Epilation: Review of 543 Cases and Ways to Manage It"

[nobuzz4me]

Originally posted by DrBauman:

 

Physicians from Spain (who are these Physicians???)

 

report that over 10% of 543 hair removal patients experienced hair stimulation from a laser hair removal treatment. This phenomenon occurred within the treated area and also in area adjacent to the treated area. It is postulated by the physicians in the report that 'sub-therapeutic' energy that was delivered to the area induced terminal hair growth. They identified the most important 'risk' of this unwanted, paradoxical terminal hair growth as the 'presence of fine hair growth' within the treated area.

 

 

Wow! A 10% chance of getting some "fine hair growth"!!! Those are great odds

 

 

 

"Scientific reports such as these give us some clues as to which hereditary hair loss patients might be a good candidate for laser hair therapy".

 

 

I wonder if patients will be sold their procedures based on if they are a good candidate or not. I doubt it, most laser clinics will probably be very willing to take your money.

 

Thanks for the info anyway Dr Bauman.

[Al - Moderator]

Originally posted by nobuzz4me:

Wow! A 10% chance of getting some "fine hair growth"!!! Those are great odds

 

No, no. You're reading it wrong. Read it again. It says they think the reason 10% of the people had terminal hair growth was because those people originally had some fine hairs around the area being treated and those fine hairs grew thicker and longer.

 

As for the 10% figure... we don't know how good that is because we don't know what percentage of the 543 had any fine hairs around the area being treated to begin with.

 

However if we assume that not everyone had fine vellous hairs to begin with than the percentage of people who had fine hair grow into terminal hair increases accordingly.

[nobuzz4me]

Behappy,

 

I think this is still reaching, most everyone, even NW6's have fine vellous hair which makes no real difference in your appearance. Where is the photographic evidence of this phenomina these doctors report? I am sure they have some but how could we know the patients are not on fin and minox under these trials? I do not trust this whole laser thing. Just my opinion.

[bezane]

Hey Bill....certainly not insulting anyone's intelligence, especially yours. You know the score as well as anyone here. But this is a sore subject with us guys in need of of hope. It takes money, a good surgeon and thats it. Let's face it, 30K can get you pretty far with Hasson/Wong/Keene/Shapiro etc. And before everyone starts balling about how much money that is, the same idiots don't sneeze at some crappy car with the same price tag. 2-3 good surgeries and 18-24 months and anxieties are a thing of the past.

 

Do you know how much I suffered going from a bushy head of hair to it all falling out. If I was a chick, it's like I woke up and my tits were hanging around my knees. It ruined my life. I did something about it. But not before I put my faith in a lot of hucksters playing games not just with my money but my life. Corn rows. Creams. Lotions. All crap. As silly as some may think it is, baldness is a debilitating freaking thing. I don't take it lightly. And some desperate guy thinking that if he pushes a $700 dollar comb through his head will change anything he is wrong. And those that profess to make that happen need to be called on the carpet. Screw it. The pain and suffering has to stop here. There's the list. Stop spending money on crap for a couple of years and do something. Or shave your head and buy combat boots......BUT PLEASE NO MORE FALSE HOPE. It's 2007. We know what to do.

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

I consider myself an extrememly objective person but the Laser comb, to me is a farce. There is no consistent data that proves ( not implies) Hair growth..

 

I don't advocate

[Bill - Seemiller]

bezane,

 

Thanks for the post. I can't say I'm quite sure of the tone of your message nor why it was directed exactly at me...but I will reply. First...you said:

 

Do you know how much I suffered going from a bushy head of hair to it all falling out.

 

 

Yes, I BELIEVE I know exactly how that feels. Considering I had a thick head of hair in high school, grew it long and women loved to run their fingers through my hair and now, if I didn't have 3 hair transplants, I'd be a full norwood 6...I THINK I have a pretty good idea of what you are going through .

 

As silly as some may think it is, baldness is a debilitating freaking thing. I don't take it lightly.

 

 

I can relate...it can be very discouraging and ultimately we end up feeling badly about ourselves and even worse...sometimes we let it affect the way we live...hopefully we don't let it come to that, but for some, it happens.

 

And some desperate guy thinking that if he pushes a $700 dollar comb through his head will change anything he is wrong. And those that profess to make that happen need to be called on the carpet. Screw it. The pain and suffering has to stop here.

 

 

Let me be CLEAR...I am NOT an advocate of the laser comb or even laser technology...never was. Nowhere in my posts will you find that I am saying that it works. What I am stating, however, is that if there is a respectable physician such as Dr. Bauman that sees some possibility of merit in it, I would like to see more research documenting proof of it working...and even still...I would NEVER advocate it unless I've actually seen it work on real patients, just as I have with finasteride and minoxodil. But even if there is proof that there is some benefit, it will hardly be a miracle cure. See below...

 

Even finasteride or minoxodil are HARDLY miracle drugs. They might at best regrow SOME hair, and do a pretty good job most the time in keeping existing hair...but they will never regrow a full mop on a bald man.

 

Again, I do NOT advocate laser technology....but I am always open to reading research studies and then making evaluations as to whether or not there is SOME merit to be found in it. In that, I am willing to keep an open mind. But my open mind is not an attempt to give false hopes...I am often the first one to call the kettle black when false hopes are being given. Check out my posts in other sections on scam companies such as "Scalpmed".

 

Hopefully you see what I'm trying to say more clearly now.

 

Bill

[the B spot]

The laser comb is not a baldness cure, period.

 

It is being very slickly marketed along with finasteride/minox and being touted as a "new step" in the search for the cure.

 

Now that the product is approved by the FDA, imagine the many uniformed sufferers who have already signed up for these combs?

 

Does it work? ..... sure, but what does it work on?

 

Dr. Bauman is among the many docs who are so very happy that they can justify overcharging for "laser treatments"

 

Why is it every 22-27 year old guy I talk to is 1500-2500 lighter in the pocket and looking for a HT?

 

Before anyone offers a rebuttal, the Laser Comb is approved as a STAND ALONE treatment, not in conjuction with minox/finasteride, so let's be honest and say that the very VERY few people this product may help, do nothing to balance out the many it will NOT help.

 

I am not pointing this at Dr. Bauman, but sometimes us "guinnea pigs" get a bit tired of all of the self-convincing and glad-handing that is going on over this over-hyped, over-priced and less than stellar product.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

J

[Guest]

Why is it every 22-27 year old guy I talk to is 1500-2500 lighter in the pocket and looking for a HT?

This is obviously thier target demographic.

I remember being that age (barely)

I still had a pretty full head of hair but noticed something was going on.

At that point a HT is not even considered, but is there some vitamins or nutrition or some snake oil? I remember reading everthing I could get my hands on concerning hair loss.

The point being is that it is an ez sell to a twenty something guy these days. And since it probably grew some hair stronger under a microscope it got approved.

I must admit I would have probably tried to buy a laser comb when I was 25 if it was available then. Hell I was looking for any hope!

Do I think it works? Not enough to give any cosmetic value.

[Aquarius]

It works even better after surgery. When your screwed. Sales wise that is . Mr. Bauman why are you catering to females? Even the fops in field disociate themselves from this therapy.

Pull out the ballbats boys. enough is enough.

[bezane]

Hey Bill.....only directed the point to you because you wee engaged in the dialogue and are prominent here.

 

To be honest, if Dr. Bauman is esteemed then he should stick to transplants and not advocate a PROVEN SHAM. I for one don't need to see some new rebuffed tests or results. The laser comb has been around for a long time and awhile back even attached itself to doctors without their blessing. That is public record. Doctors as far back as Unger had to cease and desist them. So when I see it pop up again, I feel it is my moral obligation to shoot it down with all my might. Because to the vulnerable demographic that wastes time waiting for growth, they can get busy with the real deal.

 

The techniques used by our favorites here are virtually undetectable. I was in Keene's chair the other day for a slight touch up and the shampoo girl had only been there six months and asked me why I was starting so early when you can hardly notice any baldness. I had to clue her that all my hair was transplanted. So there's hope. But not in the Laser Comb.

 

I'm just miffed that this board has enough clout to make new readers believe whatever is posted on it. And Laser Comb being touted by a doctor here with links and a somewhat aggressive stance makes me think that the bait will be snatched.

 

I care more if some kid gets hustled than some doctor gets his feelings hurt. About a year ago I slammed Dr. Williams from Las Vegas on this forum for pushing the corny laser helmet. And let me tell you, I like Dr. Williams but nailing some guy an extra 350 or so for follow up laser helmet treatments was plain silly.

 

The advancement in transplant techniques, limited sessions and styling is so far beyond many expectations, why not just go with it. I understand not enough doctors are doing and the reason is that it is very hard and tedious work. An army of microscopes, and a surgeon like Keene placing every single graft herself is mind boggling. And for what? $500 bucks an hour or so? The future is grim if techniques and practitioners don't continue to grow and advance. That or the price will just go higher. And it probably should. But given the astounding amount of detail and precision one of these surgeons has to deal with to be the best, I understand that some might see $$$$$ in alternatives.

 

Make sure you check it out guys. Don't put more time into understanding what flat screen TV is best than what surgeon will do a HT right. The list is short I'd say, but they are out there for the taking.

 

And if you are ever out in the desert off the old route 66, I think near the Arizona/New Mexico Border, there's a museum dedicated to The Devil's Rope (barbed wire). Just up the road about 100 yards there's an old Indian Chief that has a roadside stand. His associate is one of the last practicing witch doctors known in those parts. He offers sessions for $25 where he bops you on the head with a rattlesnake tail and then sprays the venom of a scorpion on your bald spot. Heard it works as well as the LASER COMB .......for a fraction of the price.

[Al - Moderator]

The advancement in transplant techniques, limited sessions and styling is so far beyond many expectations, why not just go with it.

 

Some people (myself included) who visit this board have had previous bad transplants done and are unable to have additional standard HT's done, so not everyone is able to just go with it. I wish I could do that because I know the current standards would work much better than what I had. I (we) have to look for something else that might work even if it's just enough to make the mess we have not quite as bad.

 

I'm not saying the laser comb works and I haven't tried it myself, but I have seen at least some evidence that it does work, so I think it's worth keeping an eye on for while. There are a few people from another forum blogging their results of laser comb use, so I'm waiting to see what becomes of that.

[DrBauman]

Originally posted by nobuzz4me:

Physicians from Spain (who are these Physicians???)

 

NoBuzz, I posted the abstract for the article--the physicians are listed there as well as many others who have reported unwanted (unexplained) hair stimulation with laser hair removal treatments.

 

As I am sure you know, 10% increase in terminal hair density is about what you get with minoxidil. And, as I have said MANY times, laser phototherapy (much like minoxidil) is NOT a miracle cure. All of us know that minoxidil (or even Propecia) can't come close to what hair transplantation can do in terms of replacing lost coverage, but certainly few can argue that minoxidil is not an effective treatment, right? Minoxidil's effectiveness is well documented in the scientific literature, and by those who stop using it. My point is that laser therapy is NOT a substitute for hair transplantation--but it does have a role.

 

It is important to keep in mind that the non-invasive treatments work in a very different way than the invasive ones. If someone needs fewer transplants because of the non-invasive treatments, that's a good thing. Whether it's worth the effort or expense is a personal decision each patient needs to make on his or her own.

 

In terms of the skepticism--that's also a good thing. I was certainly a huge skeptic until I saw the hair changes first hand. When I went to medical school, there were no classes on how lasers or light-energy effects cellular metabolism, wound healing, etc. Today, it's being researched at institutions like Harvard and MIT: (e.g. "Lasers Stimulate Wound-Healing)

 

In my practice back in 1999 we did not charge a single patient for the therapy for over a year. (Please note that I've treated MANY more patients with in-office laser units than with hand-helds.) Healthy consumer and physician skepticism will also help motivate the manufacturers of these devices to support more studies.

 

Part of the problem right now is exactly what has been mentioned: in some clinics and online, men and women will be sold hand-held lasers or in-office laser regimens whether they are a "good candidate or not."

 

If these patients or "laser-testers" are hoping for hair transplant coverage from a laser, they're going to be sorely disappointed. Just like with transplantation--appropriate expectations are critical for success.

 

--Dr. B.

[the B spot]

If these patients or "laser-testers" are hoping for hair transplant coverage from a laser, they're going to be sorely disappointed. Just like with transplantation--appropriate expectations are critical for success.

 

 

Dr, I think is what angers myself and others----

 

We know what "might" happen after laser treatments, but the general public is under the impression that laser therapy possesses the same level of success as finasteride/minox.

 

Anyway, good luck with continued research, hopefully you will have some timelined photos showing the gains laser therapy has afforded.

 

Take Care,

J

[DrBauman]

Originally posted by the B spot:

the general public is under the impression that laser therapy possesses the same level of success as finasteride/minox.

 

I don't think it is reasonable to expect the general public to really understand exactly what to expect from ANY type of therapy (minox, fin, transplants, laser, etc.) until they've spoken with a physician who can evaluate their current situation and goals.

 

It's kind of like the average guy going to the gym and thinking he's just a couple of sit-ups away from six-pack abs. His personal trainer will let him know it's going to take more than just sit-ups and that it's going to take months, not weeks. The analogy works becasue a good personal trainer (or hair doc) will help his clients (patients) set appropriate goals, realistic expectations and time-frames.

 

When Propecia was first approved 10 years ago, and the studies were published, most of us hair docs didn't really know exactly what to expect from the therapy. We knew it was beneficial, but by how much? Certainly, I learned what kind of reversal of miniaturization I could expect to see from prescribing it a few hundred times and following the patients' results.

 

Some patients surprise us by how much they respond to the non-invasive therapies, some because they don't realize how much they've responded, and some because they don't respond, period.

 

--Dr. B.

[Bill - Seemiller]

bezane,

 

Thanks for the response...

 

First let me say, that generally speaking, I don't disagree with you. I have not seen anything from posters over the years on this, or other forums, or even back when I was researching alternative methods 5+ years ago, state that they have had any benefit from laser therapy, whether a hand-held device or from a clinic. I have never tried it first hand, nor do intend to, especially after having 3 transplants.

 

You said...

 

I'm just miffed that this board has enough clout to make new readers believe whatever is posted on it

 

 

I can certainly understand why you are miffed especially because you were duped once into trying something that didn't work for you and wasted your money...but please understand ...this board is not MAKING new readers BELIEVE anything. All the arguments are thrown out on the table and readers make a choice as to what to believe.

 

I must state this: EVERYONE, including Dr. Bauman is in AGREEMENT that laser therapy is NOT a cure for hair loss. There is no false advocacy being made here from gimic companies that laser therapy will help ANYONE regrow a full head of hair. Making a statement like that is preposterous. That conversation is not happening here. The converstion that IS taking place here is whether or not laser therapy will help anyone at all regarding hair loss. But even Dr. Bauman who is stating that laser therapy has merit is stating that there are many limitations.

 

I'm simply stating straight out that if I have not made a full conclusion one way or the other. I tend to agree with Dr. Feller on his stand and don't actually see how lasers could do anything to stimulate any new growth, even if it is minimal. Yet on the other hand, Dr. Bauman's claim to have seen it first-hand knowing he is a respectable doctor in his field does peek my interest a bit.

 

If you read Dr. Bauman's posts, you can see he is not advocating it like those commercialized scam companies that promise the world and deliver nothing. BUT, he is stating that in some patients there might be some benefit. So is it possible? Maybe...maybe not.

 

As I said...I will not advocate laser therapy until I see evidence that it works...BUT, I will not close my eyes to REAL research.

 

Heck...if everyone closed their eyes to new possibilities, there will NEVER be new developments in hair loss treatment nor will there ever be a cure. So I'm not quick to scoff at reputable doctors who are making REAL efforts to understand potential treatments, no matter what they are.

 

Bill

[bezane]

Hey Bill....yeah....very reasonable. All your points valid and valuable. Just don't want anyone to think that the LASER COMB is a new product that is waiting on results. For most of us it is old news, nothing good in the way of results and some shady past practices to get in the public eye.

 

My final point on the matter is on to bigger and better things, alternatives and maybe just good old fashioned skilled labor.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Just don't want anyone to think that the LASER COMB is a new product that is waiting on results.

 

I agree...the lasercomb has been around for a long time. To be honest, IMO, I'm very uncomfortable with the fact that something that's been around for so long has only NOW just become FDA approved. JoTronic, another member of our community and employee of Hasson and Wong posted a very educational (and alarming) thread about FDA approval for medical devices. The link can be found here: http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/showthread.php?t=154259.

 

Thanks for the debate

 

Bill

[Dr. Paul Rose]

I would question the opinion of some doctors on their take on the lasers to some extent. One doctor who promotes lasers is a paid consultant and apparently charges over 1000 dollars per hour to speak with the companies etc.People should be asking how much money these docs are being paid? Is there a conflict of interest?

The fact is that the 510K approval is based on a previous device and to my knowledge no new claims were made compared to the previous device. According to Dr Walter Unger the previous device was allowed to state that it "promoted hair growth'

My understanding is that the lasers MAY be as effective as Rogaine

Low level light lasers have been shown to have some effect on wound healing but the data on hair growth is scant to some extent. At the same time I am impressed by the commitment of the Hair Max comb company to try to ascertain the possible biologic mechanism of action.I believe that Michael who own Lexington is sincere in his belief in the laser.

Hypotheses that affects on ATP seem questionable. How can 15 minutes of therapy cause a long lasting effect?. I believe that the mechanism is more likely associated with apoptosis (controlled cell death, if the lasers really work.

Also we need to be sure we are comparing apples to apples etc. Are the frequencies the same? Is the power generated the same?

We need to know if the longterm results hold up.

Studies of massage to the scalp show a TEMPORARY response in terms of hair growth.

Our approach needs to be open and scientific.

[bezane]

Be fair to Dr. Unger. He unequivocally states on his website that he is in no way affiliated with laser comb. And that has been on his site well before FDA approval. And has told me personally many times that it was something he considers to be unproven and lacked any significant results. They tried to use a small portion of his review in an out of context manner as though he said it worked. Very unethical.

[Jeffrey Epstein MD, FACS]

Paul Rose presents the best perspective on this debate- and that is, we clearly have a device that has, at best, some marginal efficacy. There is no debating that it is not the cure for hair loss. Furthermore, I find there to be a paucity of photos or patient testimonials adequately proving the efficacy of what is an expensive therapy.

There is a difference, a definite difference, between minoxidil and lasers, and that is the financial incentive for proprietors- whether physicians or non-medical hair clinics- to sell this technology. I have heard too many patients report that they were sold laser therapy as an additonal $1000 plus adjuvant therapy to their hair transplant. According to a patient who consulted with me, the clinic with whom he had his hair transplant told him that the reason he did not get full growth from a hair transplant was because he did not comply with the post-procedure laser therapy regime that cost somewhere around $1000. In addition, these lasers are promoted to physicans and hair clinics as "profit centers"- making me question the motives of those who provide them to patients. I am not saying the device doesn't work- only that we need more evidence before we elevate the expectations of our patients who pay all this money.

 

Science commands objective analysis- which all too often is thwarted by financial incentives. Almost all reputable scientific meetings and journals require authors/presenters to reveal any financial incentive he/she has with a specific technology. This allows the listener/reader to put the information provided in perspective. This is not to accuse any doctor of being disreputable - only that it puts the entire situation in focus.

 

I can provide my financial relationships with companies: none.

[bezane]

Case closed.

[the B spot]

Dr Epstien, can I copy your post and post it elsewhere?

 

This debate is going on in several forums.

 

Thanks,

J

[Guest HLBD]

Dr. Epstein,

 

I appreciate your take on LLLT. I, too, share a similar stance: it could work, but it is sold at a great mark-up (as it is basically a bunch of laser pointers focused on your scalp or one laser pointer and a bunch of plastic mirrors attached to a comb).

 

What I have said and continue to say is that I believe that LLLT COULD have some benefit, but I want a LOT more information and studies to be done and I think it is horrible to sell this unproven therapy at this kind of mark-up.

 

I guess I am saying that I believe all things are possible, but I will question all things.