notgoing2gobald

[quot Still seems inconsistent that 4000 grafts can cover all this, and 3 or 4000 more isnt enough to cover what could also be lost in the future.pg No one is saying you won't be able to *cover* future loss w/a total of 8K grafts. In my last post to you, shows several examples to prove otherwise. Also, to "cover" your final balding pattern is so relative. Some guys use almost 5K grafts JUST in their frontal third *alone* which is the most important area (to most) and which I believe your not addressing at all in this procedure. Graft Limit for Strip: totally relative. H&W have moved over 7K on several patients in but a single session. FUE: I don't think ANY doc has consistintly demonstrated moving more than 3K in a single session...

Quote itsabouttime---- "Firstly, yes I was wrong, Rahal would be a strip procedure, I apologize".............. sounds like strip is still on the table, as he is considering against Armani.

"Some examples of this could include infection or scarring of the scalp before or after the hair transplant procedure. Medical conditions that cause other types of hair loss could also be a factor in some cases, such as one case I heard about recently where there was poor growth due to alopecia areata"... I realize you stated that w/the caveat---"in general and not necc.applying to their cases"... but surely, *if* any of these patients experienced any of these conditions, they would have noticed it, no?

dude, we can *all* relate to you on this one, trust me!! The good news is it sounds as though your leaning to error on the side of *caution*/conservatism; which is by far the wisest way to error and you will no doubt thank yourself for it in 10+ years time. Armani---yeah, that's why he's so successful, especially among the relatively younger crowd; like a late night money-making info-mercial, he preys on individual's desires and telling them what they want to hear, even though *everyone* has a gut instinct telling them it is just "too good to be true"...not *everyone* will heed that instinct. One's *Final* Balding Pattern: no doubt, this is everyone's biggest concern/apprehension, for it is both the unknown variable in the equation, but it is aslo (and more importantly) the predicate of our proposition at hand -AND-our final product; that is---'what is our *final* supply & demand scenario (?); and how do we allocate my supply to demand BOTH now, in my current condition, AND w/respect to my foreseeable future loss?".... It's the single biggest question which effects all of us, hence the less than ideal Armani ethics which always enters the discussion when his name is dropped. " if, 4000 grafts is enough to cover all of this, then, I fail to see how 3-4000 more is not enough to cover other hair loss...that would mean I would have to lose an amount equal to or greater then the balding areas now, which just based on the size of my head seems unplausable"... that sounds very plausible, as we have seen many NW5, 6+'s who have 7 & 8K moved and end up w/great coverage: http://www.hairlosshelp.com/websites/Bobman/ http://www.hairtransplantmentor.com/ http://www.hairlosshelp.com/websites/london_lad/ So the fact that both docs estimate you have a total donor supply of 7-8K puts you in a pretty good position; although I wouldn't put much stock in Armani's estimate. How bad is your crown loss currently? Care to share a pic? On any meds? Also, after re-reading the begining of your initial post, it *sounds* as though you are not addressing the hair line at *all* in this procedure, correct? One thing you might want to consider, even though your hair line is currently intact and strong, is that this is by far the single most important area of concern for virtually everyone; not only does it frame the face, but further *most* guys front-load the grafts (placing a disproportionate amount of grafts into the frontal third) to aid in the illusion of density. If you currently do not have loss in the hair line AND are not going to address this area in this procedure, then you might want to give some serious thought as to how many grafts your saving in the bank and how your allocating the one's your currently using... In light of that, I would *def* not want to get too deep and heavy into my crown in the first procedure...

Bill, you stated the following on another thread (the Dr. E thread) and I wanted to start a new thread to address these issues, so as not to disrupt the other: "Other physiological factors can come into play that might "choke" the transplanted hairs causing a "failed hair transplant". Some examples of this could include infection or scarring of the scalp before or after the hair transplant procedure. Medical conditions that cause other types of hair loss could also be a factor in some cases, such as one case I heard about recently where there was poor growth due to alopecia areata..." -Bill....................... How rare are these conditions and what causes them respectively? Also, in the case of infection specifically, can this be caused by poor post-op care by the patient himself? Either way, can it be detected early on, thereby minimizing or completely abolishing it's adverse effects on growth/yield? In the case of "quirky physiological factors," I have heard Dr. Feller state that these can (rarely) come into play causing the transplanted hair to "thin" a couple years after the transplant; but I have *never* heard of a case where physiological factors can cause poor growth and/or yield, rather the event of grafts just not "taking," has always (by reputable docs) been attributed to mishandling of grafts and/or a poor procedure in general via some form of human error on the part of the clinic performing the procedure. Is there any evidence that physiological factors could cause grafts to simply "not take" on some patients?

Bill, you stated the following on another thread (the Dr. E thread) and I wanted to start a new thread to address these issues, so as not to disrupt the other: "Other physiological factors can come into play that might "choke" the transplanted hairs causing a "failed hair transplant". Some examples of this could include infection or scarring of the scalp before or after the hair transplant procedure. Medical conditions that cause other types of hair loss could also be a factor in some cases, such as one case I heard about recently where there was poor growth due to alopecia areata..." -Bill....................... How rare are these conditions and what causes them respectively? Also, in the case of infection specifically, can this be caused by poor post-op care by the patient himself? Either way, can it be detected early on, thereby minimizing or completely abolishing it's adverse effects on growth/yield? In the case of "quirky physiological factors," I have heard Dr. Feller state that these can (rarely) come into play causing the transplanted hair to "thin" a couple years after the transplant; but I have *never* heard of a case where physiological factors can cause poor growth and/or yield, rather the event of grafts just not "taking," has always (by reputable docs) been attributed to mishandling of grafts and/or a poor procedure in general via some form of human error on the part of the clinic performing the procedure. Is there any evidence that physiological factors could cause grafts to simply "not take" on some patients?

Yeah Than, your mastery and talent w/the fiberous clay is reminescent of Picasso in his romantic period. you should buy a berret, grow a stache, wear a red-striped shirt and overalls, take up chain smoking, drinking bottles of red all day long, eating eggs for dinner, sleepless nights concentrating on your next work of hair art, and open a Nanogen Salon!!! It will be the first of it's kind, as billions of balding men will line up at your door awaiting the master artist to exercise his skills on their mops!!! They will walk in w/a few wispy hairs and walk out looking like Hasselhoff & Collin Farell...you will make billions and will be recognized as the great hair artist of our generation...ht's will be rendered useless, and your hair art will be displayed in the finest of galleries across the globe... don't forget the lil people!

from my understanding, techs can make or break the transplant, to the extent that if they 'mishandle' the grafts they can be damaged and will NOT grow in...

There's seriously only, about, TWO of all the coalition doc's (maybe three) that I would use...

Itsabouttime, I *think* the point that was trying to be made was that Rahal does BOTH FUE and Strip; and by implication, perhaps people are wondering if *all* of the results you are seeing are indeed FUE *only* and not strip patients as well? I don't know, there's too much quoting and re-quoting on this therad... A couple of points which haven't been addressed yet, and especially viewing them in the context of your age: GENETICS: you have stated repeatedly (at least 3-4X) that your 'balding-lineage' isn't that bad. Family history at *best* serves merely as a *very* GENERAL and VAGUE *idea* of where one 'might' end up...it is by NO means a definite that you will not end up a NW6+ just because no one you can find in your family has not; and family history should not in any circumstances be viewed as conclusive evidence as to your final balding pattern. CROWN: you questioned why there is a discrepancy among the two docs, and specifically why Rahal would suggest or even deny you work on your crown. I have read from several docs, that foraying into the crown of a relatively young man can be a complete nightmare. This is the case, because while most docs will address the top/and hairline of a young man in their twenties, leaving that area fairly secure even in the event of future loss; the same can NOT be said of the crown...If you end up w/a LARGE BALD CROWN, w/extensive loss and the doc had elected to begin addressing this area years prior when the loss was not that severe, the patient will end up w/a 'halo' of hair w/bald skin below it, looking completely unnatural. The crown (if it ends up in a state of extensive baldness) is by *far* the biggest consumer of grafts of any single area on the head. In addition, due to the angle of the crown, it is the most difficult to give the 'illusion' of density when compared to any other area of the scalp. Rahal's plan of attack for you, seems only consistent w/what all ethical doc's would suggest especially on a guy of your relatively young age. The idea that Rahal is attempting to give you less grafts now, so he can get you back for a second surgery, thereby starting your graft count (cost wise) back at base one in a master plan to charge you more over the course of two procedures is tantamount to a conspiracy theory...seriously, this guy is NOT lacking for biz, and is probably booked out for a couple months in advance. I really doubt he is "banking" on the notion that you will be coming back to him in a couple year's time, but rather he is looking out for you best interest as not addressing the crown on someone of your age is consistent w/other docs; whereas Armani is notorious for over estimating grafts AND having little to no regard for the patients *future* state...

Spex, huh I had never heard of this...guess the benefits of FUE aren't *as* wide sweeping as I had thought...were Jones 'punches' significantly larger; and if so, is this what the shock loss was attributed to?

wOwW!!! a bowling lane full!?!?!? Don't end up in dA' gUttA'!!! No, won't be a "bozo"---once those 3K grafts grow in you can sport the Elvie Million DollA' Mondo Moxy Mop w/or w/out that NanoOoooO--NanOOoooOOo!

what about: Follicular Fortune 500: a magazine showing the top 500 wealthiest donor owners? (doncha' know, NicNitro would be #1!!!) and hows about a quarterly (every week) report on the most prolific posters?

Fro' FlavA': Ben & Jerry should patent that shi$!!! Nanogen is AMAZING! Your mop looks as though it suffers -ZERO- loss w/the nanogen! Thanks for the detailed report than!

Ah yes, dbk20022037.9626181671811638261281167abcdefghijklmmnopqrstuvwxyandzTHISISHOWIKNOWMYABC'S... how did his name slip my mind? Godsluv & Feller's dude complained...

That would make perfect sense, BUT the Feller patient saw Epstein directly and was denied a ht, because he thought he wasn't a good candidate; later Feller got over 7 (or 8?) K grafts from him; Godsluv ht was a couple of years ago, but he just recently came on here complaining...

Wouldn't that be a reason why you *would* use it (?)... "I used Rogaine but it kept making my hair look oily and therefore showing off my baldness"... yeah, me too! I hate that!!! So, how old are you, 25?

can I set up a pay pal link for a fund raiser? "notgoing2gobald....did you eat paint chips when you were a kid"... Naaaah, just a steady diet of: animal crackers, mac 'N cheese, and new castles! Bill, often you post articles and/or interviews from docs, which are really insightul. Can you make a forum for lazy, glutuonness, inept people such as myself where they can all be accessed w/the ease of one click; and it's really obvious where they are, as in a title like: SMART DOC OPINIONS AND INSIGHTS FOUND HERE actually on the FORUM section? That would be cool! I like the complete doc section too; or speaking of *complete* what if Bill (here you can earn your keep! ) compiles certain "best of" forms of the most popular topics, which many of us have tried to do in the past, as in: PROPECIA POLLS---which have various posts from various threads, but are all compiled in one conclusive thread? That would be really useful... "TO BALD OR NOT TO BALD"...kinda a joke, but that would be a cool section as it *is* a huge decision... "WHAT FACTORS CONTRIBUTE TO POOR HT"...while this one would catch some heat, I would like to hear more answers to underlying questions such as physiological factors and how rare it is for grafts to "not take" and the causal factors contributing to this? Maybe even a POLL among transparent docs (feller comes to mind)(?)... FUN STUFF--- how about, rather than the vague and less than motivating titles such as "Veteran Real Hair;" "Hard Core Member; " etc, etc....instead, what if we all start out w/a lil NW diagram...at your first post your a full fledged NW7, by your 300th you achieve NW6...700 NW5...etc,....hey, and somewhere in the interim you get a script for fin!!!! Better yet! at the begening you start out w/a Botched Bosley job, and have doll plugs....then later get them excised! And by your 4K post your sporting an Elvie Moxy Million Dollar Mop, a la 20K grafts from Hasson?!?!?!?!? and if somebody slacks in there posting, like if I don't post for like 5 minutes for example ( ) then in their signitare it states their experiencing sides from the fin...."NG2GB is currently suffering from linguini limp noodle, lack of libido, and even if he could bring himself to orgasm, you could find more liquid in the Mohavi dessert"....there could even be a lil diagram depicting the sides that are taking place....

I think your next (best) course of action is what you have already stated doing, that is: having a consultation with a *different* doc and have him evaluate your situation (i.e. how many grafts would he estimate have grown it, if the hair piece would have altered your growth/yield, etc)...then you can take it from there. Also, *if* your first transplant does indeed turn out to have not yielded what was harvested, or even *if* it does for that matter, I would strongly consider going to H&W and getting MAXED out, as many grafts as possible for your next surgery, so you will limit the likelihood of having less than favorable results, and also as I just think this should be the first line of attack for ANYONE w/considerable loss... Hang in there, we're all here for you man! PGP--- "Your peice is lace so that bs is out of the question since it can breathe. Ive seen tons of guys with gray hair that had normal growth"... I agree 100% and what's worse and even more concerning is that if either of these conditions were to possibly have a detrimental (or prolonged "growth" in the case of grey hair) affect on his ht to begin with, then why was he not informed PRIOR to surgery? I don't like to point a finger at a doc, especially over just one case, but this is the third case I recall now w/a complaint against this doc in just the past month or two: TTDS, Godsluv, and the Feller patient...

Spex, ..."I can now buzz to a 3/4# but i want to take it lower - coz i am greedy and i want the best i can get! Here is a link to some pics of my scar and FUE session into it"... Ha, ha hair greed in the scar, eh? I have often wondered about your case because you appear to be relatively young, and have already had TWO FUE procedures into the scar (I think ?) and are now going for a third (?). You have fantastic results on both the top of your head and the scar, but I have just wondered and now even more so w/the news your going to be putting even more grafts into your scar: aren't you worried about any future loss? How old are you? Is it Feller's position that, since you appear to be a responder to Fin, that it will curtail your loss indefinitely? Would *love* to know the answers to these questions!

Portugal, how old are you (25 ?) and are you on any meds? If so, have they done anything positive or negative for you?

I *completely* agree and great idea!!! Also, and of even more importance to me, would be great if guys would post pics w/more than one style, to show us what kind of styling options they have. ESPECIALLY guys w/the ANCHOR MAN DO (i.e. parted to one side and combed over) UGHHHHH I hate that!!! And 75% of all doc web pages have their patients w/this style; although it's out of the docs control, I hate that style because it can be decieiving and aid in the illusion of density...not to mention it looks like dog $hit! Nice candle light photos too! Were those taken in Armani's studio? Looks like *all* of the Armani pics we get...

Over 3,400 grafts (in that area) and 75 per square cm in the hair line?...WoAH!!! You are going to have one formidable mop my friend! Can't wait to see this baby grown out, congrats! Four years on the forum, eh? That makes me feel somewhat better about having not had a ht yet! You averaged about one post a year (?)...

Timetodosomething, man I *really* feel for you, as does everyone else on here Im sure, and keep us posted as we're all here to support you. Investing nine months (of grueling patience) -AND- your savings has got to hurt; hearing those words from your recent post really drives home your pain. While, at this point, nothing Dr. E says will be of any consolation I would still like to hear what he has to say about this and, more importantly I hope you still see a significant amount of growth and maturity. infield missing: "As someone looking for a first time procedure, I find this thread both informative and disheartening. I don't care how nice a Dr. is or how much he stands behind his work. A limited donor area once harvested is irreplaceable." I completely agree w/you. Although this is extremely rare, and hopefully as mentioned TTDS will still see more growth, circumstances like these are what makes it difficult for me (and Im sure plenty others) to make this decision. As if the down time wasn't enough, the biggest loss are the grafts that *seem* to be non-existent at this point. *If* the growth is non-existent in the coming months, I would really like to hear how rare this occurs and is it attributed to the mishandling of grafts? I have heard some opinions that it could be attributed to a patients physiology, but doesn't this only account for grafts that *thin,* and not one's that simply don't "take"?

I'll wait for the Cliff Notes...