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The author came on asking for help i simply stated getting bloods done..... i fail to see how that can be viewed as panicking... he then enquired in to the effects of fin to which i replied how it effects the hormones and i was correct.... your either dillusional or bitter as you are one of the unlucky ones but that doesnt give you the right to claim that the correct thing for other men to do is nothing!!! and wait for things to magicaly get better on there own as you more than any one should realise by now that,that doesnt always happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in my mind the sooner bloods are done to see whats going on the better waiting for 3 months to see if you cure your self is bad advise to give.... bloods done when you first get off fin will allow the patient to have a base result to map improvement to see if the body is reacting natural to improve any inbalances and also to see if any therapy medications are working! you must be in denile or you dont understand protocol i was a member of propeciahelp when i had sides 3 years ago and all can say is i have never been on a forum since where it was so negative its full of men saying they are incurable...... im not saying this doesnt happen that some poor men get permanent sides for life im sure it does. As with all drugs there are risks but have you ever thought you may be naturaly impotent this does happen you know not every one can say that finest did this 100% as you may have had a genetic predispostion to impotency either hormonal,physical or mental............. i think you need to go over my posts and read very carefully!!!!! and may be look up some of the hormone relationships and how they interact!!! i understand what you are saying crystal clear but you are not following me at all im afraid or you are just unwilling to understand... or you cant evaluate the information in a reasonable mannor! just because you are suffering from a more advanced and complex finest side doesnt mean that it effects every one in the same way as men react different and have different hormonal ratios naturaly even before finest was in the picture!!! im not saying what you state isnt true if you read carefully my previouse posts i agree with your comments!!! but and this is a big but the correct place to start is to correct the oestrogen and testosterone levels and hpta before anything else is tried...... if you cant see this then im afraid you are an idiot and i can no longer waste my time talking to you as you are obviously unrational. having out of balance hpta would contaminate other diagnostic tests there for it needs to be corrected first in order to notice lagitimate improvements over all and yes me and a friend who has directly spoken/interviewed dr shippen on behalf of forum members on many occasions and who himself is very very clued up on this subject managed to help 2 forum members on another forum only a few months ago inregards to finest sides who actualy came on complaining about the negative attitudes on propecia help..... of which they where even member im still a member but never go on any more as im sick of the attitude over there. plus i helped my self an now im ok so there is no point! i guess i was just lucky i came off after a year and was able to get things in order and miss any chances of perm damage and we instructed him how to improve his HPTA using clomid to boost LH and FSH and and some dhea also arimidex before to lower oestrogen amoungst others, he was a user for over 12 months and by implementing a few changes and a course similar to post cycle therapy after steroid use...... hes doing loads better!!!!!!! if you dont beleive me then fine i dont really care you mean nothing to me. so when you say i magicaly cured... then im afraid your putting words in my mouth the process was long and expensive with multiple blood results and different drugs.. but his HPTA was corrected and hes doing much better by his own admission with the help of dr shippen protocols and my firends input along with my suggestions a pathway was established and he followed it and improved i can say more than that!!!!!! how ever for men directly coming of finest you will typically see the same things in the bloods over and over again which are not natural and i beleive the correct place to start is in these areas and then if sides still persit then explore further its common sense!!!!!!!!! and what gives you the qualifications to state that i havent experianced this my self!!!!!!!!!!!! just so you know i started taking finest 3 years ago at which time i experianced decreased libido,ejaculate and decreased sexual arrousal and water retention puffyness and brain fog this persisted for 4 months after i stopped use even!!!!! (i also know now that if i knew then wot i know i could have improved my position in side of 2 months) i the started taking propecia again but this time i had bloods taken before as a control and periodically every 6 months i also take adex at .5mg each other day for 2 to 3 weeks when the blood results indicate and i have not had any sides during my finest cycles....... since by correctly managing oestrogen and the other hormones being effected and out of line i have maintained my sexual functions!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do you even know why oestrogen goes unchecked on finest? or are you one of these copy and pasters just passing on info that you dont really understand!!! because by some of the things you have said its abviouse to me that you are not 100% aware how the hpta works???? and to say im a liar when i actualy have alot of experinace with these issuse directly form my work and from a personal intrest is insulting!!!!!!!!!! do you know what hpta stands for???:confused: google it and read up on how the hormones react to dht and other androgens and the receptors relationships with oestrogen including oestrogen sides and why they occur! also look in to how oetrogen effect the heart and brain/mood and hormones other than test!!!! shbg is also another intresting subject for you!!!!! you keep telling me that men with very very high test and low oestrogen still get sides so what!!!!!!!! that point proves nothing the HPTA is more complex than just test and oestrogen... and includes thyroid function hormones etc etc you could have the highest level or test known to man and still get ed if you free test is low enough!!!!!!!????? free test is what counts we have to agree to disagree but im sure any right minded individual will realise that oestrogen is very suppressive to the point it can have a heavy impact on the whole of the hormonal systems to the point it can shut them down all together if exposed to it long enough!!! when any person comes of finest this is the best area to correct! oh and in some cases lowering oestrogen is all that is required for the body to succesfully recover as the bulk of finest sides in many short term users ie up to 2 years are mostly associated to it!!! but for a small tiny minority its more than that...... that goes with out saying!!!

wow rod you are a brave man and i admire your courage but im less brave hahahahah friends would never let me live it down!!!! im afraid they are very very small minded and all bullys at heart...... 1 or 2 are ok though hahahah

wow just looked at your results you look great!!!!!!!!!!!

brentipold, im sorry but ive failed to see how im panicking? i have given him the soundest advice in regards to his situation as it stands! and the correct protocol to follow......... when some one has intitialy come off propecia addressing the hpta is the best place to start how you can say it isnt is ludacris! its the fastest and most direct way to kick start a recovery! i agree it isnt just as easy as sorting the hpta but its the most vital area to address first and many short term and some long term users recover when the hpta is back in good shape id go as far as saying the majority. if sides persit yes other options such as thyroid etc etc have to be pursued but you dont just jump straight into that before sorting the other issues, that is like going from start to step 10!!!!! dr shippen is the greatest by the way!!!!!!!!!!!!! ive read and studied alot of the good drs work in reference to anrodpause and hpta recovery fantastic stuff i agree with everything you have said brentipold how ever just waiting it out to see if you are in trouble is the wrong attitude to take it just prolongs the suffering in some respects if he has high oestrogen and low test he will feel not feel very pleasent as i well know my self and this can be easily rectified...... and the sooner the hpta is corrected and homeostasis solidified the better as the body will start to recover even faster in many areas not just endocrine system wise mentaly physicaly sexualy and immune system FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your massive list of blood results is not needed at this point and would cost an arm an a leg in the uk i advise he sticks to the main tests before looking into all the others such as thyroid at this stage!!! as you are just going to worry the author with out due cause!!! only approach the other avenue's if recovery has been unsuccesful once the hpta has been restored but i have a hunch once the hpta is in order so too will he be!!!!! igf1 etc etc is irrelvent at this stage lol brilliant stuff for bodybuilding igf1 i love the stuff!!!! you are aware how the hpta directly affects all hormone systems in the body arent you not just test / oestrogen/dht/progesterone but also interacts with hgh, the thyroid and so on and so on another fact for you is that when dht is removed from the receptors via a dht inhibitor its replaced with progesterone interesting how it all works isnt i find it amasing!!!!!!!! any way good luck to the author but please beleive me when i say the best place to start is the HPTA and test to oestrogen ratios.... ive personaly helped 2 men now who recoverd fully after 1 to 2 years on finest simply by correcting homeostasis in the endocrine system and restoring a correct Hypothalamus to Pituitary to the Thyroid Axis levels of hormones (HPTA) im not saying there arent other factors at work may be neurological but these are rare and secondary to the above!!!!! ciao:D

i agree understand why you feel this way but sometimes it can take a very very long time for the body to get back to normal if certain imbalances have tipped ur hpta to far! excess oestrogen which finest encourages can permanentaly shut down the natural production of testosterone in some men or at least make it weak! if oestrogen levels stay high test levels will stay low its that simple if oestrogen is high a strongly recomend adex as this will speed up the bodys ability to increase testosterone naturaly. but only if bloods say you have oestrogen levels above norm!!! good luck what ever you choose to do and if the sides persist for a long time i highly recomend getting an oestrogen count done!

yes i have mine private and it cost alot look into medichecks google it... or you could go into your gp and tell porkys i have also done this! tell them you are suffering from symptoms of high oestrogen due to finest use and low test... ed, libido, gyno, belly fat deposits really play on the tingle in the nipples and puffy nipples and demand bloods done befor you take any more meds as you say you are not taking anything untill bloods are done after the mess finest has got you in and you want to see the problems with your hormones (which they cant say other wise if you state the sides above) good luck

i like the way this issue is being handled i think removing the post would have been a bad move!!! i just think its a shame that the participants of the thread and forum members cant see the lack of results you speak of in picture form!? a simple before and 12 months after with the whole face covered with computer art or paper would not give away any personal details and you may always remove the pics after they have had time to be evaluated.... im aware the issue has some what shifted focus from the actual lack of results and on to dr fellers practice, but the results are the intial reason be hind the whole incident and start to this thread!!!?? if the results are indeed poor and dr feller has confirmed this with you then i feel some middle ground towards a solution shouldnt be that hard to find between the two of you?? ****may i ask what it is you hope to achieve or gain interms of an outcome?? as im sure you havent mentioned any goals as of yet??? :confused:

nicely said wb280 agree 100%

the majority of docs who utilise lateral slit method such as feller,h&W and the majority of docs who do dense packed sessions require to shave down so they can directly follow the natural angles of the hairs etc etc how ever alot of docs still use sagital method which has the same yields in hair growth but doesnt always require a shave down due to the fact there is less chance of transection etc etc as the grafts are placed parralel to existing hairs which reduces the risk of comprimising vascularity there for hair can be kept alot longer! and dr alexander seems to be one of the best docs ive seen for getting good results with both sagital and lateral methods of implantation whilst keeping long hair in the reipient site i recomend looking at his patient websites posted by patients on this forum! and also look at a link to a thread i made entitled the undetectable hair transplant bellow!!!! hope this helps http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/158178-undetectable-hair-surgery.html

physicaly you could return to work with in a week after a HT.... but if your worried about people realising then im afraid its alot longer than 2 weeks in my case for example i suffered shock loss of the recipient and donar area around the scar!!! im now at 4 months out and im sure people would still notice infact sometimes shockloss around the scar in some cases do not grow back untill after the 4 months mark and mine is just starting to fill in now at 4 months!!!!!!!! how ever fue is an option but again you will have to shave down by 2 weeks you may be able to pull it off with concealer!! but i have to be honest and say that if you wear your hair long as you can to cover the worked on areas and scar/strip and use a concealer like toppik then id say you may be able to pull it off after 2months!!!! but in my case ive had to hide away for 5months due to the shock loss etc etc as i cant have any one knowing and im afraid as it stands with the shockloss issue around the scar they would know easy... dr hasson my dr and many forums members assure me shock loss is not a permanent issue..... but never the less it takes alot longer to resolve than many other issue.... ive already experianced some growth of the transplanted follicles............. at 4 months but as mentioned above the shock loss has only started to fill in!!! so if you get shock loss then things may be a while untill you can go in to work if you are worried about people knowing!!!!!

i havent really been able to not wear a hat yet even at 4 months as the shockloss i had around the strip was pretty bad infact the shockloss even on top was bad........ even my native hair only started to look ok now really.... but i cant loose the hat yet as the sides of the strip above my ears look like some one shaved a thin line in my hair arrgggggggggg my wish now is to have a presentable head for xmas at that point i will be 5 months an 16 days bang on xmas day! fingers crossed i see alot more growth and less shock loss aye hahahha good luck with yours man? how is ur shockloss

i know its terrible isnt it!!! simply not knowing if they will grow is the worse bit..... ha ha spex is right he always says try to not think about it but its very hard! theres no point expecting anything before 6 months in my opinion! coz what ever growth you have before this point is so thin etc etc after 6months boom we should experiance visble noticable gains (hopefully)

thanks bill wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if this is refined and stabilised even further and verified that growth cycles continue then this may well be the future cure that we and others have all been looking for, instead of the direct cloning path way!!! what are your thoughts on this bill inregards to possibilities and time frames inregards to public availabilitiy if found to be sucess!

very very intresting and all these great drs getting together for the good of the industry fills me with confidence for the progess of even better hair loss solutions! look how far we have come in the last 15 years imagine how much further we may be in the next 15 years............ i cant wait untill these new future methods such as acell or better are mainstream!!! book me in now lol hahaha keep up the good work drs!!!!

now at 4 months post HT on this coming tuesday! its getting exciting... still a few problem areas but thinks are happening now finally the shock loss has only just started to fill in on the sides!!!!! its still noticabl ebut im alot more relaxed now knowing that hair is growing back!! when its balled around the scar you cant help but worry but now im relaxed as it deff getting better week by week....... in the front its stil thin but the hairs are there thats the main thing.... i expect the next few months expecialy months 5,6,7 and 8 to be very very rewarding!! i have alot of pics to post and will make my patient website up at the 6 or 7 month mark! to show results so far!!!!!!!! happy growing to all jj:D

J Thanks for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. I have read some of your posts on oestrogen and DHT relationship and did bring this up with the Endo..He asked me how i know about this and said it is a female hormone and i should not worry too much about reading stuff online and free information that is floating around..he said that my issues are not with oestrogen..on the other hand, i tried to dig further and asked him if a lower DHT can cause anxiety and if it would affect other hormones in my body..he said that DHT levels do affect some hormones in the brain and it is possible..i then asked him if we could check those hormone levels and he said that the human brain is much more complex and these tests would not give accurate information...i personally think this Endo has very limited knowledge and that i should get another opinion..i saw this Endo in US and would be travelling to India in a couple weeks and have an appointment with one of the best Endos in the country..Can you please guide me what should i ask You have mentioned to check shbg,lh,fsh,oestrogen in addition to testesterone...is there any other specific thing i need to ask her..can you also please elaborate on the above hormones and how they operate in the nervous system..i am more concerned about my anxiety than with the ED issues!! thanks again..i really appreciate your time it worries so much that your doctor can say that oestrogen is not worth worrying about im sorry but they are very wrong!!!!! oestrogen is the hormone responsible for montioring test levels its the trigger the body uses to maintain stable levels of testosterone production. DHT is the main hormone that opposes oestrogen thats why men who embark on test replacemnet therapy after andropause take antie oestrogens when they inject test instead of using the gels as the gels make dht when they come into contact with follicle etc etc if you eliminated dht wich allows oestrogen to go unchecked! and for a qualified endo to not know that excess oestrogen in men is bad is both mind boggling and worrying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yes it is the womens hormone but it is very very influential in the workings of men HPTA........................ i cant help you as far as the brain is concerned you need a shrink or neurologist but i more than capable in helping getting you hormones in the correct ratios!!!!!! but first i will need the results for the tests for the hormones i have asked for with these i can talk with a few friends who are even more equiped to help than me and we can then write up a list of questions for you to take your other endo!!!!! but please dont feel discouraged and i ask for you to trust me in this matter as many endos simplt do not understand finest yet or the effects!!!!! and many dont even know how the hormones relate to each other inside the human body its crazy the best dr on the matter is dr eugien shippen in the states it is his protocols to which i draw on for guidance...... do a simple google search on excess effects on oestrogen in men im amased the endo is so narrow minded???? to even google or research her self see bellow these symptoms can also be seen in finest users how a endo can not know this is discusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Symptoms of Too Much Estrogen in Men Hormone imbalance in men is a common problem. Hormone imbalance normally starts showing in the forties, but sometimes it can occur much earlier. This is an embarrassing problem for men, but it can be cured. Causes All men need a little bit of estrogen in their system. Too much of the hormone, however, causes severe imbalances in the body and a wide range of health problems. One of the more dangerous side effects of too much estrogen in men is heart problems including heart attacks. It is not known why men get more estrogen in their system, but it is a sort of imbalance in the pituitary gland where the hormone is secreted.Breast Enlargement Swelling of the breasts can occur when there is high levels of estrogen in the male body. This symptom is known as gynecomastia. This symptom will occur faster in men who have excess weight and already have a slight swell to their breasts.Erectile Problems Erectile dysfunction can occur in men with high levels of estrogen. Testosterone is needed in the body to produce erections. When there are low levels of testosterone, it takes longer to get an erection, if the man can get one at all. The penis may even shrink when there are high levels of estrogen in the body.Muscle & Bone Loss Men who have high levels of estrogen in their body may experience muscle and bone loss. Testosterone is responsible for for building and maintaining muscle and bone in a man's body. Because of muscle loss, weight gain can occur as well.Mood Many men will suffer from mood swings as a result of too much estrogen, and they may also become depressed. this was just one thing i found after 1min of looking, even though this is inaccurate in places the at least touch on how its detrimental to ED and mood etc im sorry but many of my friends involved with bodybuilding and regular manipulation of the hormones are vastly more educated on the matter than many qualified endos im affraid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! many endos will feed you aload of bull to make you go away because they dont understand. get your results and i will equip you with the questions and studys to give them something to think about and hopefully educate them selfs!!!!!!!!!!!!

im not sure what everybodys take on this is but what do you think of my theory? basicaly i was always led to beleive by write ups and info on the net that hair follicles growing from the follicle can not change structure etc etc for the better or worse mid growth cycle??? there for any permanent or significant change to the condition of the follicle or the enviroment in which the follicle is growing ie, your scalp for better or worse (like when finest use is started or ended as dht levels go up and down and directly affect the follicle like dht does reducing bloodflow etc) would result in the follicle shedding the hair fibre in order to regrow in line with the changed conditions. there for its reasonable to beleive that as the author was only using finest for 3months that infact it didnt really save many hairs so to speak but more than likely did have a significant effect on increased blood flow to the scalp lower dht levels and healthier hair growing enviroment??? and now that the author has stopped useing finest the dht is high again and that has reduced blood flow and the condition in which the follicle is growing resulting in the follicles shedding the hairs to rest and regrow in line with the new conditions! i guess a kind of diluted SHOCKLOSS brought on by the combination of factors most likely the change in enviroment of the follicle incl,reducedblood flow and increased dht all starving the follicles due to the finest no longer being used!!!!!!! it stands to reason this similar to a form of shedding that you experiance when you first start any hair care med finest duts minox except with the start of the meds mentioned the shedded hairs are shed to regrow stronger how ever this time they have shed to regrow weaker.................. instead of stronger the sequence in revers you could say! :confused:

the hairs that fineest where keeping growing have now died and are falling out because you have stopped the use and dht is climbing again and making your scalp concentration rise killing the follicles and increasing MPB..

personaly i wouldnt be putting oil on yer head.... i went so bald after i had a huge shed of finest i looked bald but it grew back thicker... if you stop start etc etc with finest hairs react to hormonal changes stress and growth phases can be reduced its also very very likely that since you started finest for 9 months then stopped 3 months before HT its the hairs that finest was keeping alive that have now dopped out dead.... as stopping finest will result in the resurgence of MPB and balding as it is no longer keeping hairs growing...

****first of all let me say im a big fan of dr feller and followed him for a long time ever since i got envolved with HTs over 3 years ago now, this is no way an attack on the dr im just thinking out load theoreticaly and putting my self in the pateints shoes, and this could also be and example of any patient with any dr not this case! i my self have sufferd a failed HT along with many other members so i know how it feels!!! ok in response to you reply, im not assuming any culpability on dr fellers part... im simply saying its possible and this isnt aimed at dr feller directly as this is a team surgery after all. and this is a fact that can not be denied!!!!!!! also as the author has yet to prove his situation its hard to comment? every thing said on the matter will just be surmising??? there for nothing can be said with real relivance..... how ever in response to patients getting poor results, then many things may be at play for example,poor characteristics then he should not of had the procedure in the first place and this is something the dr is to decide....... how ever if the patient went in the sun with out a hat the day after the surgery then hes to blame....... you have to remember that HT drs are selling the result after all and even though it can not be gurantead... i still feel that once all the factors have been highlighted and discussed and evaluated if the error is indeed in the hands of the DR/team then some means of compensation has to be put forward.. whether this be a discount surgery or a partial refund!!! *************** i came to this conclusion by means of rational thinking, the difference between the Drs of the bad old days and the glowing reputations of the Drs of modern times (such as dr feller) is due to this increased sense of patient rights and not being left to lick your wounds in the event of such failiures!! if prospective HT patients thought it was russian roulette in terms of getting a good result or indeed good after care then i can assure you many men would avoid such surgeons, the final result is what men pay huge amounts of money for and to simply say hard luck isnt good enough as it stands to reason that the factor behind the poor result is equal between patient and dr ie you cant just assume the patient had done some thing wrong when it may have been the dr also? and i feel the drs have a responsibility to work with patient in such an event to get him/her the good result they desire if possible and as far as reasonably practical as the patient lost alot of money and its such examples like my own when i lost $6000 on a failed HT that creates hesitation to wards the industry. if you buy a new car and it brakes down on the way home you wouldnt expect to cover the repair all on your own would you!? *******and to be honest if you do a simple search you will see all coalition drs display fantastic after care and in the case of a failure you will find many examples of drs who offer free work or reduced priced work or financialy help the patients as lets face it they prob lost alot of money!!! and dr feller is exactly on of these DRs more than most who displays such good patient care, so where as many of points may seem derogatory they are anything but im simply thinking analytical in regards to the situation and applying it to the industry as a whole not this case. untill the author posts pics or presents more details in regards to the situation then im affraid he cant be helped by us as dr feller knows the details more than any one.. im sure this matter will resolve

ive gone through many times why i think hes a great dr and a great guy 100% a good coalition dr bid good luck:D

the simple answer is yes and no! finest sides are very complex and usualy stem from hormonal inbalances... which could be any number of things but i have to say in the majority of cases and blood results i have seen from users of finest posting results oestrogen was most often the one significant hormone having negative effects more so than any other!!! that said as you are now becoming more and more aware of how easy it is to correct inbalances with meds due to your trt medication and research.... inbalances of any nature be it test,oestrogen and shbg lh and fsh can all be restored with meds!!!! and it stands to reason why should side effect sufferers of finest just wait it out and suffer when by just doing a simple blood test they can see what the issue is and takes meds to speed up recovery thus improving sides quicker!!! and not waiting it out for thebody to restore itself naturally as this isnt aways possible.... sometimes it will need a jump start with meds in regards to your question???? in the majority of cases and with the people i have helped on another forum with my friend the only course of action we did take was in fact using ADEX and this really improved his situation!! for some people adex is all that is required you are correct and for some others a combination of nolvadex,clomid and HCG will be enough to reboot the most out of whack sytem unless it has been made un fixable then then TRT is the last option but this is so unheard off!!!!! basically if bad sides happen due to finest its most likely due to hormones being unlevel if they take a blood test and see which hormone is out then the problem can be adressed with meds and the sides reduced and reversed! and yes most of the time adex is all that is required but not always so bloods should always be used to diagnose a problem before medicating and people should never self medicate as adex for people with normal oestrogen levels will lower it to low and then the sides of low oestrogen also result in ED,LIBIDO and depression etc etc so you will be no better of careful and correct management is all that is needed!!!!! I my self periodicaly take adex at .5mg every other day for 2 weeks when needed and i have no sides this time where as last time i did so its working ok for me!!!! hope this makes sense:D but i cant speak for every one and i dont claim to have the answer but in the majority of cases the above protocols will work how ever!!!!!! some men can become affected in other areas of which i have no understanding?? such as nerological but this is so rare and a risk of almost every drug not just finest. i think drs need to be doing alot more research on finest before just dishing it out as it can possibly shut men down hormonaly which is seriosue they just dont understand it sorry for spelling im typing fast:mad:

no problem remember if your doc doesnt take the questions seriouse change doc and get the answers you need!!! its your body after all!!!! also if the doc doesnt know or is not aware of the protocols or drugs i have mentioned he will dismiss it!!! but trust me this is common practice amoungst men restoring hormonal balances the expert in the field!!! the most respected dr in this area is Dr. Eugene Shippen trt hrt pct etc etc look in to him may be get an appointment if you can!!!!! i beleive he is in the US

1 dr should = 1 patient per day..... but common sense has to be used so if the session is under 2000 then may be 2 a day but anything over 3000 then 1 a day thats my view! i personaly want my dr to be as envolved and do as much of the surgery as he can.....

just shows how desperate he must be to contact you direct some times i think a partial refund would make me happy but then i think well id be happy knowing i had affected his buisness some how and bottom line!!! and saved a few chaps