corvettester

Lounyc, I'm a NYer too. Actually, True & Dorin NYC charge almost the exact same as Shapiro Medical Group in Minnesota, if not less (depending on the size of your procedure). Just look at their respective websites and call to get a quote. I too thought that NYC docs would be the most expensive. However, when I got my quote from SMG, I realized that the real value is here in NYC. My quote from SMG was more than that of T&D, and that's not including travel expenses. SMG is a great practice, no doubt, but as a New Yorker you'll also have to include other "soft" variables such as travel expenses, convenience, post-op care such as suture removal, going back for check-ups, etc... I can't say for sure why it is, but my guess is that because of location, NYC clinics get more volume. If you think about it, rent in a midtown office like T&D has must be three times what a similar office in Minnesota, Seattle or Philly would cost. Despite all this, go with whom who you feel most comfortable. Don't let a thousand dollars sway you. From what I gather, a lot of a person's decision rests on with whom they feel the most comfort and trust. I mean, I looked at thousands of patient results on the HTN and various clinic websites. After a while, I narrowed it down to 5 or so clinics. The more I looked, the more they all looked the same because all of them had such amazing results! To tell you the truth, I can't say that I feel like T&D, H&W, Rahal, Bernstein or SMG are "better" than each other. I think all of them are outstanding. Thus, it was the soft variables like cost, travel expenses, convenience, and access to doctor and patient consultants that did it for me. I would have felt comfortable with any of the above docs. Hope this helps and let me know if you need anything. Good luck. Corvettester

Dutch, Really? From what I've seen, most clinics have a 25% deposit policy. I feel like that is reasonable. Think about it this way: if you don't show, the doc still has to pay the staff and techs... If you're going to be paying for the surgery anyway, does it really matter if you pay for all of it or part of it a couple weeks before actually having it performed? Forget about it baby... start thinking about all that pretty hair you're going to have sprouting out of your head! Corvettester

Yeah, I normally exercise 7 days a week. However, after my HT, I waited over a month. It was strange to go so long without going to the gym. When I did try to go to the gym two weeks post-op, as I was stretching, I was like "Wait a second, this isn't a good idea. I need more time." I couldn't have gone back to work for at least a week either. My body felt so foreign and the meds had me floored. Not to mention that I still had a lot of pain in my donor area for at least a week, especially when I slept. It's not like the pain was unbearable, just really uncomfortable. I know that most people, including docs, consider HT to be minimally invasive, but I don't. It really put my body out of whack. I mean sure, it's not open heart surgery or anything... but my body just isn't used to going through anything like that, and all the meds too. It was the first time that I ever had any type of surgery aside from stiches once or twice. So I'd say that it's better to play it safe. Good Luck. Corvettester

For me, the wait and anticipation of even getting the HT was almost as hard as the anticipation of growth! I even had them put me on the "Cancellation List" so that I could get in earlier in case some other client had to cancel last minute. Good luck and keep us posted. Pics are welcome too! Corvettester

A very good friend of mine had his HT with Epstein two years ago. He is very pleased with his result. I believe he had 2,500 grafts in the hairline and frontal third. He's 30 years old with medium thickness dark hair... perfect characteristics if you ask me. He was a NW3A/4A with significant recession in the temples. He's a NW2 now. I've seen his result in person several times and they are very good- completely undetectable. Unfortunately, he won't make an account on HTN. He is going back for a scond pass to add more density this fall with Dr. Epstein again. I haven't see a lot of mention of Dr. Epstein on HTN either, but that doesn't really mean anything. Either way, do your research, of course. Good Luck. Corvettester

Mahhang, I like your post. It's very well thought out and you make several valid points. However, just to clarify, I have never said nor insinuated that Dr. Feller produces poor results or is a sub-par physician. All the cases I referred to were with issues of follow-up care, communication, and patients feeling that their doctor did not support them. It simply doesn't matter how many photos Dr. Feller claims that they sent him or did not send him... in all the cases, the results were irrelevant as far as I am concerned. My concerns were always with how the patients were treated for daring to tell their story. Again, I always waited for Dr. Feller to respond to each patient before I chimed in. It was his crude language, bullying tactics and threats of litigation that I find so distasteful... among other things. And yes, I think it's fair to mention such complaints for two reasons. One is that these types of threads tend to get locked and therefore buried away under all the other posts so that nobody can every find them or so that newbies are not aware of them. The second reason is that I have seen more complaints against Dr. Feller than any other doctor on the HTN. Why is it always Dr. Feller? Why not other docs? I've only been on the forums 7 months, yet I've seen three really nasty cases involving him. This isn't just my opinion. I would be remiss not to acknowledge it. But yes, I agree that this thread has run its course. At this point, it's probably better to just drop it. You'll never seen me mentioning JAG, BL or JM every time a newbie comes to the forum asking about Feller or NY doctors. Nobody is trying to malign his reputation. However, I'm not going to forget the way he responded to those three members as well as the community. If you think I'm exaggerating, please go read for yourself. Thanks for your post. Corvettester

Dr. Feller, Please don’t compare any of your online meltdowns to anything Dr. Hasson or Joetronic have said regarding NotHappy. It doesn’t even compare. All it takes is a simple search for anyone to see what you said to Badluck, John Mallory, JustAGuy and BeHappy. Is that all of them? I can’t remember off hand because the list of your dissatisfied patients is getting so long. I’ve only been on the forums for 7 months or so and I’ve never seen more complaints against any other doctor than you. That speaks volumes. By the way, you claim that you didn’t inititate legal action against Badluck andJohn Mallory? Really? I can only base my opinion upon the information you post. I’ll provide you with a quote from your post dated 11.13.2010. In your own words... “I have already started the litigation process against Badluck for his false claims and lies. He will receive his summons soon. Now Malloy has decided to get involved by inventing yet another lie and publishing it online. He too will now receive a lawsuit from me. I will not respond on this thread to any questions or provocations.” Dr. Feller Corvettester

Dr. Feller, I do think I can have it both ways! Why can’t I support both? Why does it have to be doctor against patient? I truly believe Dr. Hasson is standing behind his patient. I don’t think NotHappy realizes it though and I think he’s being difficult or he's confused. We don't know yet. It doesn’t make him a bad guy, he’s just panicking. I bet he’s going to come out of this with a different perspective when it’s all over. I don't take the "me against the world" approach... you do. So don't talk about "adversarial" relationships. My first concern is with the patient. If that makes me biased, then I accept that. That is why I'm on the HTN: Created By and For Patients! Get that through your head. Corvettester

Dr. Feller, Thank you for taking the time to review my 6 month update. Any opinions you have on my progress thus far, as well as my presentation and analysis of said progress, are welcomed. Now to answer you questions, one by one… My doctor has already made it crystal clear to me that if I am in any way dissatisfied, he will make it right. He has mentioned this to me at every follow up without being prompted by me for such assurances. Will I continue to post my progress every two months, regardless of the outcome: absolutely yes! I firmly believe in full transparency. I think it does a great service to the community as well as prospective patients to document one’s HT progress… for good or ill. When a patient has a less than optimal result, they should still post it. It’s not “taking their doctor to task” any more than it is stating the truth. If the doctor is a man of integrity and honesty, he has nothing to fear either way. In fact, in cases of less than optimal results, it can really only benefit him as it will give him a chance to show to the world his commitment to his patients when things don’t go according to plan. The idea that a doctor would be so defensive and assume himself as being attacked, says more about the doctor than it does the patient. I take issue with how you frame a patient’s complaints as “online warfare” or “taking the doctor to task.” This sort of thing should carry no negative connotation and should be encouraged by doctors and the community. You won’t find any doctors upset when a patient posts exceptional results. To answer your question, if a portion of my hairline does not grow 6 months from now, I’ll do the right thing and wait another 6 months. I won’t freak out. If there is still no growth, after a total of 18 months, then I will discuss with my doctor the options. Although, 12 months will probably be enough to know. I’m not one to panic. When a problem arises, I deal with it. Some doctors do refunds, some do not. Some do complimentary work, some do discounted work, and some do neither. I knew before undergoing my HT what my doctor’s specific policy is. It’s basically the same as H&W, in my opinion. Therefore, it is up to the patient to know in advance what to expect from his doctor in case of a less than optimal result. So to answer your question directly, it’s not a matter of what I would demand. I don’t even think in such terms. I trust Dr. Dorin to do the right thing even if he hadn’t affirmed it to me. So if it doesn’t grow, he’ll give a complimentary procedure and I won’t have to ask him to do the right thing! He will make the gesture. If everything goes well or not, I will make the gesture of reporting my result accurately and fairly. I understand that you would insist on payment. Believe it or not, I respect your right to insist on payment and the principle behind that. I disagree with it, but only for personal reasons, not philosophical. Thus, nobody is calling you a Scrooge. Plus, the fact that you’re open about it should not cause any unfair remarks against you. It’s simply your policy… To each his own. However, if my doctor and I couldn’t agree on the result, that would be a real shame. If he said it was good, yet I found it unacceptable, I’d have to have a long discussion with him about it. If our views were truly irreconcilable, I’d have to go elsewhere to get the result I wanted. Yes, I’d be very disappointed. Wouldn’t anyone? I certainly would not hire a lawyer. But either way, I am committed to full transparency. If I felt mislead or that my doctor deceived me in anyway, then yes, I would bring it to the community. Why wouldn’t I? It’d be the right thing to do. I will post my result and honest opinion regardless of the outcome. That is why HTN is so important. It acts as the last line of defense against deceptive practices and quacks. Believe it or not, I really sympathize with a lot of doctors who have patients freaking out because they have limited growth 3 months or even 6 months post-op! What’s wrong with these guys? Did they not do ANY research? Though I admit, if I had minimal growth at 8 months post-op, I’d be pretty worried. As you so eloquently put it, doctors and technicians are humans too and by definition incapable of perfection. Knowing this, it is entirely unreasonable to expect perfection… as I’m sure you agree. So I’m willing to work with my doctor. But if he were to throw me out in the cold, tell me I’m crazy and that I had unrealistic expectations, I’d be pissed! Wouldn’t you? I do feel a sense of duty to the HTN community though. My reason is simple and doctors should take note: were it not for the HTN, I would not have undergone an HT. I had heard of HT before, and I had viewed certain clinic websites and even had a consultation with one. But that simply was not enough for me. I didn’t trust it because all my information was coming from the people trying to sell me the product. I needed to hear other voices from a variety of doctors and experiences… the good and the bad. Trust me, if I hadn’t come across any less than optimal results on the HTN, I would not have trusted it as a valid source. But it was emailing back and forth, texting, phone calls, etc… with former patients that did it for me. The HTN provided that forum for me. I want to make sure I can give back by creating a detailed and comprehensive blog and contributing to thread topics while I sit at work on slow days at the office. HTN puts Facebook to shame! I don’t believe in zealotry. I’m no man’s disciple. In fact, that is one of the things that turned me off to your practice Dr. Feller. The fanaticism with which some of your former patients speak of you is off-putting to me… but that is just my opinion. As far as my expectations go, I’ve never expected wow results. I don’t see it enough to expect it. Too many variables involved. Plus, all the wow results that I’ve seen, at least that I find to be wow results, in my opinion, always are with patients with thick hair shafts, I have very thin hair. So my expectations are less than a lot of guys. Also, I have to give special mention to Epileptic Sceptic. If there is one person whose personal story and contributions on the HTN I have found invaluable, it is ol’ ES. The guy is awesome. His posts smack of brutal honesty and realism… no nonsense, visceral straight-talk… that’s ES. I just hope I can give to the community what he gave to me because the truth is, I’m pretty freaking happy with my results so far. I’m glad I decided to get an HT and I’m glad I chose Dr. Dorin. In the end, it was a toss-up for me between T&D and H&W… with Rahal as a close second. I chose T&D for my first procedure for purely personal reasons. There are a lot of qualified doctors out there. Choosing one doesn't amount to rejecting another. If I have in any way misrepresented my results online or given an unbalanced review, please inform me. That is the last thing I want to do, for the sake of the doctor and future patients. I hope answer all your questions sufficiently and that this clears things up. Corvettester

Dr. Feller, The current situation with NotHappy is unique in that there are several questions arising as to the veracity of the OP’s identity (Carefree, Vince Hair, Widow’s Peak) as well as the true nature of the final result. As far as anyone knows, NotHappy did not start this thread. It is true that I do support Dr. Hasson on this topic, but not at the expense of NotHappy. If you go back and read NotHappy’s first post (#32), you’ll see that although he is clearly disappointed and upset, he is civil and remains open to discussion. He is dissatisfied with his result, but his real pain stems from his feelings, founded or not, that he is not supported by H&W. If he feels he is unsupported, he has the right to say it. If he feels his results are bad, he has the right to say it… and he doesn’t have to sugarcoat it either. This doesn’t mean he is “engaging in public online warfare” as you claim. By the same token, he doesn’t have the right to lie, attack Dr. Hasson’s character or mudsling. I haven’t seen him do any of that. This is my point. The HTN was a created by and for patients. It’s supposed to be a safe space for us. That is why its so upsetting to see posters treated this way… we’re all in the same boat here. I will always give a member the benefit of the doubt, as I will the doctor. I just don’t feel like everyone else is doing that. For this reason, I truly sympathize with NotHappy as I’m sure a lot of us do—doctors included. I am unabashedly pro-patient. I would not have undergone an HT had it not been for the HTN. I don’t care how many results I saw posted on various clinic websites. It was meeting real people that persuaded me... the good and the bad. Yes, I do believe Dr. Hasson is standing behind his work… now if only we could convince NotHappy! He’s a tuff-cookie, no doubt. But instead of denouncing him as a disingenuous liar, let’s just work it out. Throughout this unfolding drama, Dr. Hasson has remained professional, civil and cool-headed… as well as primarily concerned for the patient welfare! I think most would agree on that. There seems to be a lot of unknowns regarding his case. That is why Joetronic asked us to reserve judgment until the can get him in the office for a follow up. That sounds very reasonable to me… in fact it sounds down right amazing that H&W would be so committed to their patients as to fly them to Canada to make this right. Again, I have to say “Wow!” to the dedication of H&W and their respective staff! As I’ve said before, in my opinion, they truly do embody the gold standard of patient care. Their reputation is in my opinion the most well deserved because they work the hardest for it. But it’s not only H&W’s post-op patient care that sets them apart. H&W’s consistent and comprehensive dedication to showing their results on the HTN, with frequent updates, high definition photos and videos, that shows their commitment to the community. I take issue with the few posters who have suggested that H&W is somehow disingenuous for posting so many results! Are they crazy? I wish all clinics were as prolific as H&W in posting. Not to mention, Joetronic is truly a pioneer in setting the standard for what is reliable and accurate. Did you see the 18 video series he recently published? Again, simply amazing! Corvettester

Dr. Feller, Thanks for your response. I hope I can give the community a satisfactory answer to your queries. I’ll try to be concise; however, for the sake of brevity and clarity, I’ll answer your questions in three separate posts. This post will deal with our conflicting definitions of informed consent and standards of care. The second post will respond to your questions regarding my thoughts on Carefree and NotHappy. A third post will address your questions regarding my personal experience and expectations… as I’m especially glad (and flattered) to learn that not only you, but “EVERY” doctor, as you claim, is interested in hearing. I really don’t see why this is necessary though. I mean, I’m just one person. I’m sure my opinion and expectations are different from everyone else. Starting from the beginning… I read my informed consent contract carefully before signing it. It read nothing like your statement. Whether or not it forms the legal basis in a court of law is irrelevant and can only be determined by the courts. The fact that it would have to go that far for any patient is a red flag in itself. I couldn’t care less what the courts think. Simply put, I don’t understand it, nor do I accept it, the way you do. Your standard is predicated upon the assumption is that physiology is the primary, if not exclusive, reason for poor results. To start from the premise that failure can only be attributed to physiology, unless proven otherwise, is disingenuous and self-serving. What if the standard read “Physician Error” unless proven otherwise? I’m sure you wouldn’t accept that. Thus, I disagree with the fundamental premises (assumption) of which your standard is predicated. As I mentioned in my post, the burden of proof must lie equally on the patient and doctor. Essentially, by your standard, all a doctor has to do is say “Prove it!” and he’s off free. I mean, let’s be realistic: proving it can be more expensive and burdensome than the HT itself! Essentially, your standard slams the proverbial door in the face of the patient. I don’t want that kind of doctor. Let’s not go into trying to define the nebulous concept of “standard of care.” I’m sure any competent lawyer could weasel his way out of that one. Therefore, I refuse to accept your standard. Not only that, but I find the principle behind it utterly distasteful. I’ll have nothing to do with any doctor who hides behind such legalese. The patient and doctor should be working together from the beginning. I already knew the risks before I got my HT. However, physiology is not the only risk—physician and technician error is one too. To disregard such possibilities would be just as reckless as to disregard the risk of physiology. Therefore, to disregard such possibilities from the outset in the contract, within an agreed upon standard of quality and accountability, would be equally reckless, disingenuous and self-serving. I am sure that your definition will hold up stronger in a court of law, as you no doubt have experience in litigation. However, I doubt it will stand in the court of public opinion… in the minds of men considering FUT/FUE. In any event, I almost feel like all the legal speculation is moot. I mean, the root of a lot of these patient complaints stems from a patient feeling let down by the process, the system, the doctor… that the doctor doesn’t support him or isn’t standing behind his work. I’m sure you remember the cases of BadLuck and John Mallory. Your supporters kept trying to paint the situation as a patient having unrealistic expectations or acting in bad faith. The reality was that, although both BadLuck and JM were unsatisfied with their results, the real problem was that they felt let down by their doctor in regard to post-op care and a sense of support… not to mention, let down by the community. As per your remarks in regard to why I brought up “butchered” patients, it’s for the same reason I used the tobacco industry analogy: to emphasize my point. Certainly, no HT patient has to worry about a slow death like a cigarette smoker would. I just resorted to hyperbole to make a point. I certainly agree with you that these days a butchered HT job is not likely. I don’t think anyone read my words to imply that that what I was saying about NotHappy. And, yes, I do worry about the burden of proof with such butchered patients. Lawyers are a very clever breed. They can twist the obvious and find unlikely, yet legally permissible, mitigating circumstances. That is why I think the legal option is almost never really an option for most people. As for my phrase being “catchy but misleading,” I disagree. I would like to think that in most cases you are right in saying that “The only time a doctor will stand behind a lawyer is AFTER a patient has already hired one of his own.” However, you’ve proven to be the exception to this rule. I remember a case involving you and two separate dissatisfied patients. In that case, it was you who threatened to start legal action against JM and Badluck. So I don’t understand how you can make such a claim… My definition of a doctor who stands behind his work can be seen on virtually every thread involving a dissatisfied patient of Hasson & Wong… I even referred to H&W as the “gold standard of patient care” in one of my previous posts where I compared the difference between how you and H&W in treating dissatisfied patients (JustAGuy / HairMeOut). Again, thank you for turning this thread into something educational and truly informative. If you refer to my post (#84) you’ll see that I was expressing frustration with the direction it was going. Also, for future reference, I respectfully request that you try to be a little more concise when enquiring my opinions. You must have asked me twenty questions! And now I have to answer them! No worries though, I understand. Hopefully you have a better idea of where I’m coming from now. I’ll briefly address my thoughts on Carefree and NotHappy in another post coming shortly and my personal experience in a third post. Corvettester

Dr. Feller, I categorically do not accept your standard. No offense, but I find your position self-serving. Your position effectively waves the physician of all liability and responsibility. Essentially, you're using the same argument the tobacco industry has used for years by claiming that a direct causal link cannot be made between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. I hate to imagine the burden of proof a butchered HT patient would have to provide in a court of law to remedy his case and receive just compensation for damages from his doctor. The burden of proof, should lie equally on the doctor and patient. As I’ve said before, a quality physician stands behind his work, not his lawyers. Aside from your last statement, with which I emphatically disagree, thank you for your contributions regarding this topic. You've made many valid points and shed a lot of light on the topic of realistic expectations. However, I will never accept, what amounts to, a standard of physician infallibility. Corvettester

Based on your case and expectations, I think that an HT probably isn't a good idea for you, at least not at this point, for two main reasons. First, if you're a NW5 at age 26, then you have a good chance of significant more balding... maybe even to a NW7 by the time you're in your early 30's. Second, you said that only 3-4% NW4-7s who get HTs end up looking good, in your opinion. That is definitely not my opinion, but I respect yours. If you you feel that way now, I can't imagine you'll be happy with your results. So save yourself the headache and the heartache. Also, you said that you would only go the FUE route. Bear in mind that FUE usually cost twice as much as FUT. A NW5 is going to need at least 5,000 grafts, so you're looking at close to a $40,000 procedure. And if you want density like you mentioned, then think closer to 8,000 grafts! Do you even have that much donor hair to spare, let alone cash? Also, because you shave it down already, I'm assuming that it must be working for you and that you've never had to experience the true hell of MPB like so many others have-- fortunately, neither have I. From what I gather from my hardcore balding brothers, when you have to live in the pit of MPB, you're entire perception of what looks good changes completely. Therefore, I suggest you read posts by Epileptic Sceptic to really see what I mean. He goes into agonizing detail about the psychological, emotional and social ramifications of being bald in a world that prizes a full head of hair. He's also a great source of knowledge and advice and he doesn't sugarcoat things either. Good luck with your situation. You'll find a lot of friendly and sensible advice on HTN. Corvettester

I'm not against hair loss meds, per se. I'm just against meds in general... especially long-term or permanent. Of course, when I get a bad headache, I'll take some Tylenol or something like that. Obviously, I was medicated for my procedure. However, I generally try to stay away from anything unnatural as much as possible. I’m a health-nut for sure, but I don't try to force my lifestyle on anyone... I just think it's important that potential HT candidates aren't under the mistaken impression that they must take meds. I believe that all options should be explored... as I'm sure you can appreiciate. For example, I take vitamin and herbal supplements. Corvettester

TheEmperor, Sorry to hear that you’re disappointed with your HT. I completely understand and respect the fact that you want your voice to be heard and why you feel a special duty to NotHappy and the community as a whole. Your blog is very comprehensive; however, I can’t find any recent photos. I could be mistaken, but if I read everything correctly, the most recent photos are from over 6 months ago. In my opinion, of all your photos, the ones from 6 months ago are of the poorest quality in regard to displaying your final result. Do you have any recent quality photos that you could post for us? It’d be greatly appreciated. Hopefully, you can work with H&W to come to an “amicable resolution” as they say. Nobody wants you to suffer or to be stuck with a bad result. From what I’ve seen on the forums, H&W are among the best in regard to quality results and customer care. They always stand behind their work and make the extra effort to make things right. I really believe you have a good chance of getting this resolved and finally achieving a sense of closure and happiness. By the way, thanks for keeping such a detailed and exhaustive blog. It’s a very important contribution to the community. I’m very interested in your case as this is the first time I have heard of it. I'll be following the outcome closely, as I'm sure many others will too. I hope it works out well for you. Good luck, bro. All the best, Corvettester

Concerning your questions... You don't have to take meds. Personally, I'm against it if at all possible. I didn't start medication. For me, meds are a last resort. Only if I were to have continued seeing significant loss, would I have even considered it. However, almost everyone on HTN will suggest starting medications... and with good reason. You'll see a lot of success stories here. So it's really up to you. But it's generally recommended to at least give them a chance. As for the scar, it's a nonissue for me. I can't even find it, but then again my hair is longer than a #3. However, I often hear other members discussing it and, depending upon your hair characteristics, there seems to be a concensus that #3 is typically the minimum needed to completely conceal the scar... although, I've seen plenty of guys get by on a #2! Corvettester

Anouar, Tant pis pour vous! As for my situation... No, I'm not on meds. I'll do anythign to avoid taking meds. The only MPB in the family is my paternal grandfather who was a NW7 by the time he was 30. Corvettester

Lorenzo & Spex, Thanks for the input. Yes, I'm in it for the long haul. Patience and confidence is essential... I have both. Now back to focusing on everyon else's results! Corvettester

Awesome! What an amazing contribution to the community. I wish more clinics were doing this. Corvettester

Ken, Thanks for contributing to the community. Grow well! Corvettester

Yeah, I agree... very subtle and natural. It just looks real. Corvettester

Dude, you rock... big time! Corvettester

Good stuff. I think that is great coverage for that amount of grafts. Corvettester

Thanks dude, that's encouraging to hear. Corvettester

...So it goes. Corvettester