Perhaps A Strange Question

[Jotronic]

Gorpy,

 

It's sad that you have to resort to cheap insults. "Salesman Joe"? C'mon, I know you can do better than that.

 

"I have seen plenty of stats from H&W patients."

 

How many? Point me to them. By stats, you must mean actual strip measurements, right?

 

"He apparently has no idea about the strip scar so I was simply informing him of common strip lengths."

 

And that is the beauty of this site, helping others, but in your initial post you said "typical" strip length of 30cm. I won't beat you up over semantics but the bottom line is that you know nothing of this patient, how many grafts he needs, etc. etc. Why didn't you ask him about his case first?

 

Earlier you said something about the strip scars being "ugly" and "hideous" and "large". How many people on the street do you think even notice this kind of thing as a hair transplant? None. I have personally sat at a table with two strangers that were close friends of Mike Ferko's that after 45 minutes had no idea I had a hair transplant. We're talking ten days after my first procedure and my head was shaved. If you call Mike in our Seattle office he'll give you the number of a patient that had to give a presentation for a 3 million dollar contract nine days post-op and his head was shaved. He got the contract. Tell him how ugly and hideous the scars are. Mike's number is 1.888.819.6013.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you walk into the downtown area of your respective cities and towns you can ask 100 people what they think of when you mention the words "hair transplant". Ask them the first thing that pops into their heads, "plugs". This is the only way you see or hear about it in the media because it is portrayed as the comic relief of any movie or tv show. "The guy with the plugs" is picked on for a good laugh. What Dallas will get, and what you got, are far from plugs.

 

Remember the issue over Jamie Foxx and if he had an HT or not? Do you recall seeing this question in any of the papers? TV news? Non hair related blogs? Nope. You saw this question posed on hair transplant sites and no one can figure it out. Watch Jarhead, look for the strip scar. Even then people debate it and he has his head shaved. Btw, point out the other two Marines in that movie with strip scars. I've seen them, have you? We look for this stuff all the time. We look for it on George W., we look for it on Michael Jordan, we look for it everywhere. Everyone else is looking for the next American Idol.

[Gorpy]

Cowboy states:

 

 

Posted June 08, 2007 08:26 AM

I'm preparing to schedule a session in the very near future.

 

Currently, I shave my head with an electric razor (with no guard...so it's not cleanly shaven...kind of a stubble...and fortunately...I have hair growing in all over my head, but it's just thinner on top).

 

I have a job in the public eye, so that's why I'm paranoid.

 

 

Deceptive practices Joe. It is obvious he won't be happy with a strip scar while buzzing his hair. I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30cm long. He won't be happy with it unless he grows his hair out to cover it. Tell the truth Joe. Sorry I interfered with you "making the sale".

[Jotronic]

I'll make this simple. Do you or do you not think it's best to know what someone's situation is before making assumptive statements like yours?

 

I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30cm long.

 

Gorpy, then why mention strip scar lengths at all? Your entire argument just got shot out of the water.

[Gorpy]

Right. And I'm totally off base warning a newbie about what his strip scar might look like 3 weeks post op with a buzzed head.

 

Dallas, you have been warned.

 

 

Dallas said:

 

 

Posted June 08, 2007 12:45 PM Hide Post

YoungGuy,

 

Thank you.

 

I guess my situation is that I currently have my head shaved, and I don't want to start growing hair back because I'll be thin on top (until the hair starts growing back in), and again, I'm in the public eye.

 

So, if you're saying the only visible problem I'm going to have is the strip scar (which I really don't know how large that is), then that doesn't sound too bad. And, to me, at least on the surface, it sounds like something I'd be comfortable with having...unless you guys are telling me that it will a) look hideous even 3 weeks after the procedure and b)is a terrible idea (keep in mind, I'm obviously planning on growing my hair out in the 5-6 months it takes to grow back).

[Aquarius]

Well Joe; As much as I respect you. Gorpy is right. Or is caution to the winD the new mantra?Also I did not know that H&W now posessed the holy grail or a crystal ball.

Check it...

[Jotronic]

Gorpy,

 

You can quote all you want. You don't know his situation, you didn't ask, yet you threw out a random number that you say is based on stats which you have yet to provide. Whether or not his scar will be 30cm or 2cm you did not know. These stats (your words) come from nowhere and you don't have anything to back up your words. Even if you are right about the size of his potential scar, you just don't know. I do so I'm speaking from a point of advantage.

 

Don't twist things around to make it look like I'm telling people that a strip scar is invisible with a shaved head. I'm the last person to do so. Keep posting but until you can back up your "stats" relating to his case without knowing anything about it your argument is moot. That was and is the point. I'm still waiting on those stats.

[Aquarius]

I'm getting a little heated.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Jotronic:

Gorpy,

You can quote all you want. You don't know his situation, you didn't ask, yet you threw out a random number that you say is based on stats which you have yet to provide. Whether or not his scar will be 30cm or 2cm you did not know. These stats (your words) come from nowhere and you don't have anything to back up your words. Even if you are right about the size of his potential scar, you just don't know. I do so I'm speaking from a point of advantage.

 

This is such nonsense. Come from nowhere?? You've made a career out of posting multiple results online of super megasessions from your clinic - the 4000, 5000, 6000, and 7000 graft variety. Even if you cut the grafts REALLY small you're going to get long scars. It's insane to ask for stats and proof when you're the one posting them in the first place. Tell me, since you're chastising him, who ever heard of a "2cm" strip scar? Are you saying your clinic would put a guy in the chair for 200 grafts strip? When Gorpy responded to the post he said "typical scars" and strip scars are "typically" at least 25 cm long. And very visible for some weeks and months after surgery so if this guy wants to continue to buzz to a zero guard then he better go in knowing all the facts.

 

Don't twist things around to make it look like I'm telling people that a strip scar is invisible with a shaved head. I'm the last person to do so. Keep posting but until you can back up your "stats" relating to his case without knowing anything about it your argument is moot. That was and is the point. I'm still waiting on those stats.

What exactly is your point then? Are you even remotely prepared to argue that a guy who wants to continue to shave his head with a zero guard has even the faintest hope of concealing a strip hair transplant? Because that's what he said he wants to do and ANYBODY with any sense would tell him it's impossible, for any amount of grafts that would be remotely reasonable to justify a strip surgery in the first place.

[Aquarius]

MOOT- Where the f- do you think your posting HLH ?

Hummble yourself.

This is a patient site not a sales site.

Perhaps you were confused ?

I expect one to Gorpy or you can go pound sand.

[nervous]

Acquarius - you are too funny.

Any way if you read the orginal question, its obvious the guy is worried about the scar because he shaves his head complete, so its irrelevant if the scar is 30 cm or 25 cm or 20 cm. it will be quite obvious the first few months and that is the point.

[Aquarius]

Exactly..

[Jotronic]

Spoon,

 

With all due respect do you think that all we do are large sessions? Many donor strips are indeed 30 and even 32cm long. At the same time many are much shorter. My point is that Gorpy did not know if this guy is getting a 1000 graft session or a 6000 graft session. And as for a 2cm scar, it was sarcasm.

 

Here's my donor scar at five weeks with a #1 buzz.

 

 

 

Hideous? Depends on your idea of hideous I guess but it's up to Dallas to decide since we're talking about his case. No one said a thing to me during the entire few months that I kept it at this length. This was after a very wide strip for the time (1.8cm in 2002) that took out two previous wide scars and way before trico was introduced.

 

You guys are getting jacked up over this with arguing points that I'm not disagreeing with. I never said the scar would not be noticeable. I never said that it may not be an issue. A 30cm scar may be typical based on results we've shown here but at the same time it may not be based on our entire patient list. "Typical" applies to what has been seen here on the forums but may not apply to Dallas; or it may. Gorpy does not know but we do since we're the ones speaking with him. Dallas may choose to move forward, he may not, but it should be based on what he brings to the table as a patient and not random numbers thrown around without any facts to go on. Part of our job is to try and understand the patient's expectations and identify issues that may be of concern. That is why I asked him to call me and that is why we try to do the right thing.

 

Continue slamming me all you want but my points should be clear by now. So clear that there is no more need for argument. And like I said, helping others is what this site is all about and I know that is what Gorpy was doing. I called him on his "stats" however and now I'm the bad guy salesman. Exuuuuse me. Next time someone asks about doctor taking two strips in two days to get 4000 or 5000 grafts I'll stay out of it and let Gorpy explain why it's a good idea.

[YoungGuy]

Joe, I believe Gorpy was talking about the first few weeks post op. The scar will be an angry shade of red, and it will be very visible with a buzzed head. It's just the nature of the beast, fresh scars.

 

After a few months he will look wonderful and the scar will be difficult to detect even when looked for. With a clinic of H&W's caliber and the skill of the docs there, that's never really been under dispute. However, dallas asked whether he can continue shaving his head until 4 months post op, which to me says he wasn't aware of the scar. So he deserved a heads up

[Guest]

Look, If you are buzzed down to a 1 or 2 clip, the scar is going to show regardless of size.

 

I think the patient should be alerted to the fact that people will notice a scar if you don't grow your hair out a couple of inches.

 

It may not be hideous, but they will notice if you have a buzz cut.

[YoungGuy]

Not a couple... 1/2 inch or so.

[balody]

folica,youngguy is right,my hair is well under 1/2 inch at the moment and youcan barely make out the scar.in a week or 2 it will be undetectable. dallas, when you say you are in the public eye are we to assume that you are a well known face?if not would it not be easier just to bite the bullet shave down and if anyone notices tell them the truth or make up some far fetched story about a heroic tussle against a samurai weilding maniac.even if you are famous would it not be reasonable to ask you to come clean and fight some of the stigma attached to this proceedure and baldness in general.your thoughts please.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Jotronic:

Spoon,

 

With all due respect do you think that all we do are large sessions?

 

It honestly seems like you've learned some techniques in deflecting arguments by masking everything with technicalities. Your clinic is primarily known for megasessions so that's what's being used as the benchmark here. Since you have such a huge problem with it now, then why don't YOU post right now and tell me what percent of your clinics sessions are less than 1000, between 1000 and 2000, 2000 and 3000, 4000 and 5000, and so on? It's been a while since I saw any high school math but this should be a pretty easy exercise, just throw the last 6 months worth of cases in a spreadsheet and there you go. I have seen enough cases from your clinic to know that you support the one-and-done approach wherever possible and that includes situations where the patient has a lot of native hair but a higher-level loss pattern on the scale.

 

This is SUCH a stupid thing for you of all people to argue. If someone had posted and told the guy "H&W will give you a very small scar because they're willing to do strips of about 1000 grafts)" I'm quite positive there would have been an uproar because the implication is that a strip session that small is unethical.

 

 

Many donor strips are indeed 30 and even 32cm long. At the same time many are much shorter.

Well, obviously. But let's get more specific - what's your clinic known for and what percentage of your scars in the last year have been "much shorter"? What is the SHORTEST scar your clinic has ever produced on record? How short was the scar of the 1350 graft patient? These are very simple questions and if they are ignored I'll bring them up again. It's pretty clear from your voluntary posts about your clinic's results that you keep all this info so it should be very easy to produce answers.

 

Furthermore let me be extremely clear here - for a guy who buzzes his down like dallas said he does, any strip scar is going to show for a long time after surgery.

 

My point is that Gorpy did not know if this guy is getting a 1000 graft session or a 6000 graft session. And as for a 2cm scar, it was sarcasm.

 

Which is why he said "typical". As to the 1000 graft session, that scar will still be very noticeable for that patient. As to the sarcasm what's the point of it? Everyone knows that if a patient has enough hair loss to justify a strip surgery, they'll have scar across the back of their head.

 

Here's my donor scar at five weeks with a #1 buzz.

 

Hideous? Depends on your idea of hideous I guess but it's up to Dallas to decide since we're talking about his case.

 

Here's an idea, let's read what he already wrote: "I have a job in the public eye, so that's why I'm paranoid."

 

No one said a thing to me during the entire few months that I kept it at this length.

 

Big deal! People often do say anything directly to people but they say plenty when backs are turned. Point is irrelevant.

 

You guys are getting jacked up over this with arguing points that I'm not disagreeing with.

Actually I think you're the one getting jacked up because he said he was considering your clinic and he was warned about the scar given how he cuts his hair. To be very blunt if he was considering another clinic and got the same warning I highly doubt you would have gotten involved in the conversation.

 

I never said the scar would not be noticeable. I never said that it may not be an issue. A 30cm scar may be typical based on results we've shown here but at the same time it may not be based on our entire patient list. "Typical" applies to what has been seen here on the forums but may not apply to Dallas; or it may.

 

It may, it may not. It might, it might not. Let's cut to the chase, for a new guy starting out and researching transplants who needs to get a quick sense of what he's getting into, what are the relative chances on scar lengths? Not complicated at all. You're doing yourself a disservice with this "may or may not" crap because everyone knows that if he needs a strip, he'll have a 20-30 cm scar across the back of his head.

 

Gorpy does not know but we do since we're the ones speaking with him.

Really??? A few weeks ago you were on here warning everyone about doctors bypassing patient input by setting up a different website and how those doctors should be chastised and avoided for doing so. Now here you are suggesting that patients who have actually been through surgeries aren't really qualified to comment on likely strip lengths but you are because you know. Interesting.

 

Continue slamming me all you want but my points should be clear by now. So clear that there is no more need for argument. And like I said, helping others is what this site is all about and I know that is what Gorpy was doing. I called him on his "stats" however and now I'm the bad guy salesman. Exuuuuse me. Next time someone asks about doctor taking two strips in two days to get 4000 or 5000 grafts I'll stay out of it and let Gorpy explain why it's a good idea.

This is the reddest herring I've ever seen. Who gives a crap about any of this? Your clinic's method vs his clinic's method isn't even on the agenda in this discussion yet you choose to use that as a means to discredit him (even though you can't even conclusively prove that method is wrong) when all he's doing is warning a patient who shaves his head that if he gets a strip, the scar will be noticeable.

[the B spot]

Regardless of what anyone here says, there is no guarantee that the resulting scar will NOT look hideous.

 

Even if you look at Joe's picture, some may feel it is fine, others may be uncomfortable with that scar visible.

 

Point of view/frame of reference.

 

Anyway, even if a strip 10cm X .5cm wide is taken, there is no guarantee the patient will close perfectly and no complications will arise.

The larger and longer you go, the greater the risks.

 

As far as shaving down, unoticeable, etc...

 

The answer is always plan on it being VERY noticeable and go from there.

 

Take Care,

J

[Rhodeman]

All of this posting about a strip of unknown length/width for a graft count that is not known.

 

Would a thinner/shorter strip width result in a thinner/shorter scar? It's obvious that Joe got a little irritated at Gorpy's "hideous and ugly" comment as Gorpy did not know any of the specifics regarding this patient's needs or potential resultant scar. Also, using the term "typical" when applied to anything to do with HT's is dangerous. On the other hand, Joe could have taken it down a notch.

 

dallas, sounds like leaving a little longer hair in the back [as per Hairbank's & balody's earlier advice] might make your scar appearance problem go away.

 

Pics of dallas current condition would probably give a better idea of what would be necessary.

[NervousNelly]

Gentleman,

 

Once again a case where things got drastically out of hand. No foul. No harm done. Dallas was definitely uninformed and essentially unaware of any scar from what I picked up and I think that Gorpy did him a huge favour by at least educating him. Think back to that one idiot that we banned from this site because he was a virus and intentially started thread after thread of propaganda about his visible scar.---that was obviously someone that got a HT and didn't understand where the hair came from and then regretted his decision.

 

Joe, the way I see it, Gorpy did you a huge favour because the last thing you would want is some sour individual hitting the internet all pissed about the scar on the back of his head that he got from H&W. Now I'm not implying that you don't educated your patients, but if he got all caught up in the excitement of his new hair it might be a detail that goes in one ear and out the next.

 

How about Gorpy and Jotronic kiss and makeup. I've witnessed a couple of threads where you guys have gone after each other. Both of you provide great resources for this site and its good that differences of opinions are discussed.

 

NN

[Jotronic]

Rhodeman,

 

Well put.

 

NN,

 

"Joe, the way I see it, Gorpy did you a huge favour because the last thing you would want is some sour individual hitting the internet all pissed about the scar on the back of his head that he got from H&W."

 

I agree with not wanting an unhappy patient but I have to disagree because his wording was off base. I didn't know who the patient was and I perceived that he did not know as much as he could have which prompted my personal cell # to be published online. I wanted to get to the bottom of this asap to find out what Dallas knows and what he does not know. I would think that my actions would have made clear my dedication to patient education. How many times have you seen someone post their personal cell # online here?

 

I don't look at what Gorpy said as educational. His heart may have been in the right place but his delivery was not. My initial post pointed that out. He responded very defensively with the "high horse" comment and that sparked the rest.

 

A strip scar may be "hideous and ugly" to him but maybe that is from his own personal experience. I don't know but he threw out a specific number regarding the length and gave a negatively vivid picture of something that I strongly disagree with. Had he been more general with the dimensions, say "20 cm to 30 cm", then we'd have no issue here.

 

We're working with Dallas to make sure that both sides see eye to eye. If we think we don't then we'll be the first to tell him that he should hold off. This is not an issue of whether the scar will be seen or not, it is an issue of what is acceptable to Dallas and we'll do our best to give him the most accurate picture possible to make his final decision.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I've been away for a few days, and I see that this thread has turned from a "Let's help a newbie" thread to a "Let's debate about Hasson and Wong Practices" thread.

 

I will add my thoughts briefly to the latter part of this thread and then would like to get back to helping Dallas.

 

I agree with Gorpy in the sense that it's accurate to say that scars can be up to 30cm long (heck, maybe even longer). I've never really measured my scar, but I know it's one of the longer ones.

 

BUT, I think Gorpy targeting Hasson and Wong gave merit to Joe's post. Joe has a right to defend" his clinic when information is given that is only partially correct.

 

The truth is...REGARDLESS of the clinic, scars could be up to 30cm long. It simply depends on session size. But since Hasson and Wong has the record for session sizes, it is definitely a logical assumption that their larger session scars have the POTENTIAL to be longer.

 

I won't comment on all the other aspects of this thread, because I think we have gotten way off point. May i suggest that we take this bantor somewhere else and get back to helping Dallas?

 

Dallas,

 

I hope that you have gotten the information you have needed.

 

I also recommending reading the following thread that I started here:

 

What are the various methods of hair transplantation and how does it work?

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=569...601075613#3601075613

 

Let me know if we can help you with anything else.

 

Bill

[spoon]

Nice deflections.

 

The flippant comment about Gorpy having access to patient records was a cheap shot and that started it so it seems quite hypocritical to focus on the "salesman" comment.

 

None of my questions were answered, no surprise.

[Gorpy]

I did not "target" H&W. I only mentioned them because Dallas stated he was going to them. I called the strip scar "hideous" because that's the word Dallas used. Joe is obviously overly-sensitive with my comments since I put him to the test in our previous discussion. I simply decided not to take any more crap off Joe. Since he attacked my initial statement, I decided to call him a "salesman". It's as simple as that. I will continue to call him a salesman every time he attacks me.

[NervousNelly]

Gorpy,

 

You did nothing wrong my friend, infact it was good to paint that picture for Dallas. It is better that he be informed and expect the possible worst case scanario rather than get all caught up with the idea of new hair.

 

I believe that Jotronic got on you because of previous disagreements and the fact that Dallas was interested in H&W.

 

Bill--how did you interpret that it was a shot at H&W?? I didn't see it??