Perhaps A Strange Question

[Aquarius]

It's patient educator. It was out of sheer dedication that he gave his personal # as not to have him fall prey to the misinformation he may have recieved here. A personal cell # is fairly anonymous. I ask the grocer if he has Prince Albert in a can with mine all the time.

It really does look now like you were just trying to help.

It's just a matter of who...

[Bill - Seemiller]

Gorpy and NN,

 

I'm not saying Gorpy took a purposeful shot at H&W...I'm only stating that he made a blanket statement that targeted H&W. I understand why Gorpy did it (because Dallas said he was considering them(, but the statement in itself was misleading, which is why Joe said something.

 

Gorpy's statement was: "Typically H&W use a 30cm long strip".

 

All I'm saying is that I can understand why Joe intended to correct that statement. HOWEVER, I don't feel Gorpy was attempting to pick on H&W.

 

Now the problem is...that Gorpy and Joe have had some words before in other threads and simply don't see eye to eye. No need to re-hash previous topics...but it appears that topics may get more heated than they should, because of this.

 

Bill

[Aquarius]

Bill- As opposed to using a cleche. "With all Due respect" Review this entire thread. Before you blather.

I realize your loyalty to H&W . But....

The use of semantics/ retoric on JTrons part is simply put irresponsible .

Go have some green tea and reavaluate.

Jotrn is trying to cull someone into neverything he can offer (off line of course) After a wince of a contrary viewpoint was introduce, he became hostile twords a true gentleman (Gorpy).

Case closed. Unless I really get a rise out of the response.

Either Joe is desperate or has found prozac , because nothing he has said in his DEFENCE has anything to do with the situation at hand or the salient points put to him by spoon.

This is a great day.

Where disclosure (patient education/best intrest) vs. salesmanship (the bottom line/ yellow bricking)is taken to task.

His dash of narcisim. (I don't do anything wrong)really sealed the deal.

You fill in the blanks.

Get some rest before you say anything really stupid. (you are trying to become a lawyer right?). Review the case before coming in for your closing arguments. ; ).

This isn't traffic court this is the guys life.

(disclaimer) this is not legal advice but I once banged a paralegal so hard she brought forth a frivolus lawsuit and I won.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Aquarius,

 

As usual, not sure exactly what you are trying to convey.

 

But if you read my post again, you can see that I'm not posting out of loyalty to H&W, but out of my observations both on this thread and others.

 

Personally, I like Joe and Gorpy...both I consider friends in this community.

 

Also, not sure why you think I'm trying to become a lawyer (you are confusing me with B Spot).

 

I do, however, recommend that you take another look at my posts before you start questioning my intentions brother. Try to remain objective.

 

Bill

[Jotronic]

Spoon,

 

Getting six months worth of data into a spreadsheet is hardly easy. First, it's a weekend. I'm not going into the office to do this (but I did go in to remove some staples). Second, I'm busy enough as it is without having a ten foot stack of files on my desk typing in data. Thirdly, I don't need to have the data on a spreadsheet to know that we do lots of smaller sessions that do not have 30cm scar lines. Your request is hardly easy much less rational.

 

"It honestly seems like you've learned some techniques in deflecting arguments by masking everything with technicalities. Your clinic is primarily known for megasessions so that's what's being used as the benchmark here. "

 

Technicalities? How is this a technicality? Gorpy said that our scars are typically 30cm in length. I said he's wrong. I think I should know. "Typically" is one rung down the ladder from "always".

 

"I have seen enough cases from your clinic to know that you support the one-and-done approach wherever possible and that includes situations where the patient has a lot of native hair but a higher-level loss pattern on the scale."

 

What you fail to understand is that "one and done" does not relegate itself to big sessions. It means big for the area in need. Where one clinic may place 700 we'll place say 1200. Just an example but you get the point. One and done is relative to the size area in need.

 

 

"If someone had posted and told the guy "H&W will give you a very small scar because they're willing to do strips of about 1000 grafts" I'm quite positive there would have been an uproar because the implication is that a strip session that small is unethical."

 

Unethical? Says who? The all FUE docs? Gee, I wonder why. According to Dr. Feller this is not the case.

 

Quote by Dr. Feller:

"This is why if you really need more than a few hundred grafts (500) you should opt for strip."

 

The uproar has been deafening. Btw, that's sarcasm

 

ME:"Many donor strips are indeed 30 and even 32cm long. At the same time many are much shorter."

 

YOU:"Well, obviously."

 

What do you mean "obviously"? Your post is calling for numbers to back up my statement. Is it obvious or not?

 

"Actually I think you're the one getting jacked up because he said he was considering your clinic and he was warned about the scar given how he cuts his hair."

 

And therein lies the problem. I could not care less if someone says that there will be a scar. If you look back at my posts in this thread, I said that there WILL be a scar and showed MINE as a repair patient. It's the issue of it being "hideous" or not and the assumption of the length that gets me.

 

"...everyone knows that if he needs a strip, he'll have a 20-30 cm scar across the back of his head."

 

And again, I would have no problem with a statement like this because it is much more general in it's implication. 20cm to 30cm is a much less assumptive stance.

 

"Now here you are suggesting that patients who have actually been through surgeries aren't really qualified to comment on likely strip lengths but you are because you know. Interesting."

 

Hardly. When is it ok to make statements to a patient about his case when no graft estimates are given? When is it ok to make statements to a patient about his case when all is mentioned is that he shaves his head? It's like the times I've seen someone come here and ask about a potential procedure, and if it's right for them and no one asks about age or Propecia or degree of loss first. I've seen it happen. Let me reiterate, I don't care about someone saying there will be a scar. I care when the scar is characterized as being 30cm and hideous based on assumptions (that are not characterized as typical) that I get involved.

 

It's become obvious to me that some of you are reading, but not absorbing what I'm saying. A few times now some have pointed out my reference to the "salesman" comment. I dont' have a problem with being called a salesman. I'm proud of it actually. I'm good at what I do and I do my job with integrity so all these "salesman" comments with negative intent are useless. Keep 'em coming if it makes you feel better. It's the "high horse" comment that was out of line because that horse is not in my stable. And no, Spoon. I don't really have a stable

 

Now Gorpy is saying that the only reason he called the donor scar "hideous" is because Dallas said it first. So the question begs to be asked; would Gorpy repeat the description of "hideous" had the clinic been his own? Think about it.

 

Gorpy,

 

So, to summarize the situation, Gorpy made an assumptive comment that may or may not be completely off base. My response was this.

 

"Since when have you had access to our patient files?"

 

Gorpy said to get off my "high horse". If my question is deemed an attack then you have no idea what an attack is.

 

And Gorpy, with all due respect, you have never "put me to the test".

[Aquarius]

You know Bill- I just posted a love letter to you.How empithetic and caring you are. On review I deleted it.I guess you enjoy a semi anual cut up (one a year so far for you as of yet.).But others might not. "As usual"? <quote> You don't understand me...Perfect. Selective hearing perhaps? Or should I yell?

Example.

Some guys spend thousands on mistresses' and if they don't get a few stitches and black eyes to show for it they get pissed. ; )...( Scorpio syndrome) Others might not wan't to take that route or go down that road.

As far as the walking,talking contradiction. Nothing like a man without a conscience (JT). From what I'm seeing man ,it ain't good.

Joe why would anyone wan't to absorb your recent bull$hit?

Like I said reread this thread before it gets altered.

"Never let anyone point a scalple at your head while his eye is pointed at your wallet."

I like that better.

Let's play nice.

[Gorpy]

Joe, I realize you like to use this forum as your personal marketing tool, but it doesn't work that way. I really cannot even read your B.S. posts anymore, so save yourself some time.

 

Bottom line is this. I tweaked Dallas's interest in the strip scar appearance. He'll now go off, research it, look at some pictures, read some more posts. Joe, using his well developed, ahem, "consultant" skills will convince him that his strip scar will look great 3 weeks post op. Dallas will go into surgery a more informed patient.

 

I have done my job. You can thank me later.

[Jotronic]

I tweaked Dallas's interest in the strip scar appearance.

 

Indeed you have. I thank you now because I was not aware of his misunderstandings and now we are getting it worked out.

 

You can call my postings BS all you want. That's a common response when you have no argument but I expected more from you than that. I still wonder if you would have repeated the words "hideous" and "ugly" just because Dallas first said them if he had said he was considering going to Arizona for his procedure.

 

So, I'm done with this thread. Too many variations on my points have been made (falsely) to make this any clearer.

 

Yes there will be a scar. Yes it will be visible depending on how short Dallas's hair is. Yes I asked Gorpy if he had access to our patient files and yes he responded by saying that I am on my high horse for asking. How it got to this point, I'll never know, but hey, it is what it is and anything after that is just that.

 

Aquarius, keep getting heated man and fight the good fight. Your signature says you don't charge anything for it

[Aquarius]

Uh- jo that was virtually illiterate. Can you wait until the salt kicks in or someone can write up a decent response. It usually takes a team and a day or to for you to reply so I'm getting worried.

 

<EDIT> Man I will and you edited your posts.

[Jotronic]

No, I added the last five lines.

[balody]

dallas,look what you started man,hope your proud of yourself.are you even still here?if so can you answer my question are you a face? and if so are you gonna stand up and say YEAH!IM HAVING WORK SO F**KING WHAT!

[Aquarius]

Quote by Jotron-

<"If someone had posted and told the guy "H&W will give you a very small scar because they're willing to do strips of about 1000 grafts" I'm quite positive there would have been an uproar because the implication is that a strip session that small is unethical."

 

 

Unethical? Says who? The all FUE docs? Gee, I wonder why. According to Dr. Feller this is not the case.

 

Quote by Dr. Feller:

"This is why if you really need more than a few hundred grafts (500) you should opt for strip."

 

The uproar has been deafening. Btw, that's sarcasm> end quote.

 

I am sooo sure DR. Feller is going to respond to that. The rational is WAIT. It's called ethics jo and I don't give a $hit about your poor small session mini's that you were able to conquere. My violin just can't handle your pain.The vision of you puking by the roadside brings tears to my eyes... You ain't seen $hit. Your repair situation is an anomily and you know it. The fact that you weren't harmed is a blessing.So now your a bonified arrogant salesman. JMJ .

Insulting everyone that disagrees with you along the way right or wrong.

I prefere to be free ( nice dig)than bought and sold. NEXT..

I heard there is a site that promotes balltickling to the uninformed not to far from here.

I even heard they ban free speach delete posts and such. I feel that's a good enviroment for your type as per their best interests and yours.

This site is slightly more highbrow (educational). Not to say a healthy scrap doesn't happen but ... Your gonna get reamed if you blow smoke and you have started smoking stoggies my friend..

[Jotronic]

"I am sooo sure DR. Feller is going to respond to that. The rational is WAIT."

 

Respond to what? What is it like to be the only one that understands your posts?

 

"This site is slightly more highbrow (educational)."

 

Your posts wreak of highbrow education...in the fifth grade.

[Aquarius]

Your right. Plain english is not understood by people like yourself. It is plain.

I will have to brush up on semantics, salesmanship and half truths before I engage you. This is not familar to me or anyone that is unfamiliar with your ilk.

Your right you are very educational.

This has truly been revealing.

If there are things you have forgotten from the 5th grade I will point them out to you.

As far a your selective absorbance of what I say perhaps that's on you.

I am saying that it looks like you may not be forthright.

Do you need a dictionary a thesaurus or a referal to someone to help you. I will send you any of the above.

Because I help people , just like you do. I hope you will keep up the good work.

Please don't edit your posts anymore . Even if you are a functional illiterate that can't seem to understand plain English, at least have the balls to leave your posts alone.

I would trust a 5th grader with my hard earned cash than a sheister so I will take that as a compliment.

Now go cry to someone.

[nobuzz4me]

Jo, you are usually great info for this site which is what this site SHOULD be all about. However, your attacks here on Gorpy are just lowering your standing here in my view. I just read this thread and do not see Gorpy "attacking" H&W. Maybe you are more sensitive to it since you work for them but it is really getting old defending such tedious points. Let it go man.

 

Dallas, you are in good hands with any of these coalition docs, keep in mind the scar will be there and you will not be able to buzz down to a zero guard without it being noticable. Do your research.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Jotronic:

Getting six months worth of data into a spreadsheet is hardly easy. First, it's a weekend. I'm not going into the office to do this (but I did go in to remove some staples). Second, I'm busy enough as it is without having a ten foot stack of files on my desk typing in data. Thirdly, I don't need to have the data on a spreadsheet to know that we do lots of smaller sessions that do not have 30cm scar lines.

 

Actually it's dead simple, hire a temp or a high school student to show you how. If you really think you need a 10 foot stack of files and that you need to type you need help, and fast... oh, but wait a second. Your savvy enough to rebuild websites and self-promote your clinic's results on videos. In line with that self promotion, you routinely have on hand all sorts of data (except your average hairs per graft) - session size, number of hours it took, strip dimensions, grafts per cm2 in various parts of the scalp, blade sizes used, number of techs who rotated in and out ... but you can't tell me on average what length of strip your clinic uses? Please. I think you're deflecting again, just like on the hair counts.

 

Your request is hardly easy much less rational.

It is entirely easy and it is completely rational. Your entire living is made on hair transplants and all the info that goes with them. Now here you are telling me you can't come up with something as simple as the average session size in your clinic. That is transparently pathetic.

 

Technicalities? How is this a technicality? Gorpy said that our scars are typically 30cm in length. I said he's wrong. I think I should know. "Typically" is one rung down the ladder from "always".

Whew, good thing he didn't say "always". There's a simple thing in life called "proof" and are welcome to provide it.

 

"I have seen enough cases from your clinic to know that you support the one-and-done approach wherever possible and that includes situations where the patient has a lot of native hair but a higher-level loss pattern on the scale."

 

What you fail to understand is that "one and done" does not relegate itself to big sessions. It means big for the area in need. Where one clinic may place 700 we'll place say 1200. Just an example but you get the point. One and done is relative to the size area in need.

There is nothing here I fail to understand, particularly your skills at pretending to answer questions while answering nothing at all.

 

"If someone had posted and told the guy "H&W will give you a very small scar because they're willing to do strips of about 1000 grafts" I'm quite positive there would have been an uproar because the implication is that a strip session that small is unethical."

 

Unethical? Says who? The all FUE docs? Gee, I wonder why. According to Dr. Feller this is not the case.

 

Quote by Dr. Feller:

"This is why if you really need more than a few hundred grafts (500) you should opt for strip."

 

The uproar has been deafening. Btw, that's sarcasm

In your universe I guess if A equals B and B equals C, then A must equal C. Luckily such is not the case in the real world. Shame on you for bringing up another red herring and dragging in another doc on top of that. The comment from Feller does not justify a strip of 500 grafts and everyone here can see through your argument.

 

"Now here you are suggesting that patients who have actually been through surgeries aren't really qualified to comment on likely strip lengths but you are because you know. Interesting."

 

Hardly. When is it ok to make statements to a patient about his case when no graft estimates are given? When is it ok to make statements to a patient about his case when all is mentioned is that he shaves his head? It's like the times I've seen someone come here and ask about a potential procedure, and if it's right for them and no one asks about age or Propecia or degree of loss first. I've seen it happen. Let me reiterate, I don't care about someone saying there will be a scar. I care when the scar is characterized as being 30cm and hideous based on assumptions (that are not characterized as typical) that I get involved.

You get involved when your search for "H&W" turns up a hit and you find a new post referencing your clinic. Generally speaking the first thing that comes up when a new registrant posts is the meds so you can take a walk on that argument. Nothing you've said here helps you.

 

Now Gorpy is saying that the only reason he called the donor scar "hideous" is because Dallas said it first. So the question begs to be asked; would Gorpy repeat the description of "hideous" had the clinic been his own? Think about it.

Ah, so you DO think he took a shot at your clinic - hence your motivation to jump in the thread. See now, patient education is hardly your primary reason.

 

And Gorpy, with all due respect, you have never "put me to the test".

I think he did on the hair counts, and you never provided the info. I think your motivation was to attack him because you have a grudge about that exchange, just like I think your attack on Goertz had nothing to do with patient empowerment, and everything to do with an exchange you had on another site concerning comments he made in a consultation with a prospective patient about your clinic's work.

[spoon]

From June, 2006.

 

average session size

 

In response to the following question: "Can you let us all know about stats and your donor area? and how H&W is able to harvest so many grafts? are they able to do something different than other doctors?"

 

Quote:

"Yes, we can and do on a daily basis. Our average size session is about 4000 grafts per patient."

 

"We tend to take longer strips but we also make sure we waste as close to zero grafts as possible. Having large numbers of techs helps too because you need a lot of techs to be able to cut the number of grafts we get. I don't remember my strip length off the top of my head. I think it was in the range of 27 to 30 cm long."

 

I think I'm probably finished with this topic now.

[Jotronic]

Spoon,

 

"Actually it's dead simple, hire a temp or a high school student to show you how. If you really think you need a 10 foot stack of files and that you need to type you need help, and fast"

 

Your "request" is not only irrelevant it is a waste of time. To say that this is simple is ridiculous and I honestly don't know why I'm wasting my time pointing out the obvious. And I guess instead of typing you simply look at the screen and the information just appears. Yeah, no need to type, sure.

 

"...but you can't tell me on average what length of strip your clinic uses? Please."

 

Hey, you never asked. I would say the average strip length is between 20cm and 30 cm. Happy now?

 

"I think you're deflecting again, just like on the hair counts."

 

No, it's just a non-issue. In the past ten years of operation we've had two, TWO patients ever ask for counts. Funny how it's super important to non-H&W patients. Our patients come to us for results, not hair counts.

 

"Now here you are telling me you can't come up with something as simple as the average session size in your clinic."

 

I already have, and you quoted me on it below. Do you even read your own posts?

 

"There's a simple thing in life called "proof" and are welcome to provide it."

 

Proof of what? That a lot of our sessions don't involved 30cm donor strips? How is the onus on me to prove this?

 

(On the "one and done" approach)"

There is nothing here I fail to understand, particularly your skills at pretending to answer questions while answering nothing at all."

 

You obviously did fail to understand it. What question was that?

 

"In your universe I guess if A equals B and B equals C, then A must equal C. Luckily such is not the case in the real world. Shame on you for bringing up another red herring and dragging in another doc on top of that. The comment from Feller does not justify a strip of 500 grafts and everyone here can see through your argument."

 

 

Actually, A does equal C given your "equation". And your issue of ethics had to do with 1000 graft strip sessions, not 500. So, which is it? 1000 is unethical or 500? Or is this what you deduce of your ABC's? I guess now you're calling Dr. Feller unethical?

 

"Generally speaking..."

 

Generally speaking? What does this have to do with generalities? Instead of skirting the question, answer it.

 

"Ah, so you DO think he took a shot at your clinic - hence your motivation to jump in the thread. See now, patient education is hardly your primary reason."

 

Try looking at this right side up. It's not that Gorpy was making a shot, it's that he (in my opinion) would have changed the wording from "hideous and ugly" to something less graphic as a defense. See the difference?

 

"I think he did on the hair counts, and you never provided the info. I think your motivation was to attack him because you have a grudge about that exchange, just like I think your attack on Goertz had nothing to do with patient empowerment, and everything to do with an exchange you had on another site concerning comments he made in a consultation with a prospective patient about your clinic's work."

 

Some say I started it by asking if he had access to our charts, some say he started with the "high horse" comment. Who cares at this point? Again, hair counts, no one asks for them. And as far as Goertz goes, what exchange are you referring to? Really, I don't recall. Please provide the link.

 

""Yes, we can and do on a daily basis. Our average size session is about 4000 grafts per patient."

 

Do you know what "average" means? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the ABC's

 

"I think I'm probably finished with this topic now."

 

Good. Time for this thread to give way to something more constructive.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Jotronic:

Your "request" is not only irrelevant it is a waste of time. To say that this is simple is ridiculous and I honestly don't know why I'm wasting my time pointing out the obvious.

How is it that you seem to have access to all sorts of data when you want to promote a result? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you have a database to hold that data. Even if you don't, day in and day out you're right there with the surgeries going on so it should be extremely simple to come up with an educated guess about the distribution of session sizes.

 

No, it's just a non-issue. In the past ten years of operation we've had two, TWO patients ever ask for counts. Funny how it's super important to non-H&W patients.

Well, one outfit just said that transplant surgery isn't really surgery. Might as well have someone else say that hair transplantation isn't really about the hairs you transplant. I see from other recent topics you have no problem discussing graft counts, though.

 

Our patients come to us for results, not hair counts.

That would make a good tagline in a commercial, in some places.

 

Actually, A does equal C given your "equation".

If this was algebra 101 sure. But it isn't. If $10 equals the cost of a shoe shine and at the grocery store the cost of a bag of potatos is equal to $10, can I pay the shoe shine guy with potatos?

 

But to be fair I didn't phrase things the way I should have, so here it is: if someone says FUE isn't worth it for more than 500 grafts that is not even close to saying that a 500 graft strip is a good idea. Get it?

 

I guess now you're calling Dr. Feller unethical?

This is a very disgusting tactic and you should be ashamed of yourself. I never brought him into this topic, you did. I haven't said anything about him or his practice. You have, because you needed a diversion.

 

And as far as Goertz goes, what exchange are you referring to? Really, I don't recall. Please provide the link.

Hairsite, do a search. You'll find it, and so will anyone else.

 

Do you know what "average" means?

 

Yes, do you? If you're doing all these tiny sessions with small scars what does that tell you about what has to also happen to get to that average of 4000? Actually never mind, don't answer that.

[Aquarius]

Spoon - You are .. well dangerous. Keep up the well thought out indefencable facts.

Jotro- is doing damage control as a result.

B-spot is now on the same page ??

I'll bet he could sell a 90 year old woman a ZR-1 Corvette . No money down with a balloon payment.

[the B spot]

Um--- I suggest you read what I posted again....

 

My post was in response to my not feeling well and responding to Joe incorrectly.

 

He and I spoke over the phone to clear up any misunderstanding---- that is to say, we understand where each of us is coming from.

 

Refer back to my post on this thread to see my stance on the issue.

 

J

[Bill - Seemiller]

B Spot,

 

Glad you and Joe talked. Now we'll have to hit it up sometime and talk on the phone!

 

Bill

[Rhodeman]

If I make it to 90 I hope I'm able to drive a Vette!

[Aquarius]

B-

I did and you were right pre-edit.

Did you read his posts on other threads ?

I just see a powerfull advocate being salved.

If what I say bothers you well...