Regular Member Turkhair Posted July 3, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, JayLDD said: A drug doesn’t have to remain in your body as you say to cause long term side effects. This had to be one of the absolute stupidest, most blatantly poorly executed claims logically I see everywhere about PFS. Example, if you take too much heroin you can damage your heart and liver in the process. Now you can stop doing heroin and the heroin itself will leave the body but it doesn’t follow that just because there’s no more heroin in the body you don’t have long term side effects as a direct result of heroin use regardless of whether or not it remains in the body. Your heart could still be damaged whether or not the substance that caused it itself remains. I can just imagine someone who gets severe brain damage from having 50 standard drinks in a night, the alcohol passing their body in a few days and while they’re drooling on themselves and can’t walk you’re there saying “ALCOHOL ONLY TAKES A DAY TO PASS THE BODY THEYRE FAKING IT!!!” If you’re going to say there’s a lack of high quality medical evidence for PFS that is probably true, but for the love of God please stop this absolutely braindead argument about how long term health issues can only exist if a substance is still in the body. Second bad argument is that just because the drug had left the body, and that it has stopped reducing hairloss doesn’t mean that sexual sides couldn’t persist due to other changes in the body. This needs to be tested, among a variety of other potential abnormalities of those who claim PFS against the general population. Also, we actually don’t know whether those with PFS who have ceased taking the drug go back to baseline hairloss because this is something you actually need to test properly, not just assume you know the answer while blabbering about “science” with no actual data. 3 hours ago, baldfighter said: Think about things like alcohol, or smoking, even if you stop using it, the damage has been done. I am not comparing the effect of fin to alcohol or smoking, just want to say you can’t always reverse the effect of something you have been using for years, even if you stop using it. Comparing apples and oranges. Smoking damages the lungs, you can physically see the damage. And guess what, when you stop smoking, the damage is recovered slowly but surely. Alcohol has far more drastic effect on body the most pronounced in liver and gastrointestinal tract. But guess what, the damage is reversed quite remarkably once stopped. Heroine physically alters the brain such that the receptors are permanently altered. You can’t cold turkey heroine, such are the effects. But again, if you stop it the effects are reversed and given enough period of time may even revert to baseline. You keep bashing anyone who disagree as not following science but ironically you are a victim of it. Finasteride has nothing in common with smoking or alcohol, it is a competitive type 2 inhibitor of the enzyme, learn what that means. At worst it alters gene expression in prostate but this has been studied to be pretty weak and reversible. There’s no evidence to suggest finasteride even alters the enzyme expression, the levels return so quickly to baseline!! This is why you get hairloss quickly again if you stop the drug. Before you jump in excitement about the gene altering, just living life alters gene expression. The food we eat alters gene expression. The environment we live in. It doesn’t account to much if finasteride causes changes in prostate when DHT is inhibited. All the high quality unbiased researchers call PFS sufferers as cuckoo people 😂 they’re imagining it. Their hormonal parameters are studied and they are all back to baseline. Their hairloss continues, prostate increases in size. I had severe covid almost dying and when I recovered my lungs were visibly damaged. I felt like an old man, couldn’t run. Years later, I can feel things have improved. You could clearly see infiltrates and damage on my lung. My God, what is this cryptic disease PFS that body can’t recover from. You can recover a damaged lung but not mythical PFS disease lol 😂 Edited July 3, 2023 by Turkhair 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheGreatPretender Posted July 3, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 4 minutes ago, Turkhair said: The food we eat alters gene expression. The environment we live in. It doesn’t account to much if finasteride causes changes in prostate when DHT is inhibited. Thank you for mentioning one of my biggest arguments when it comes to people when talking about "bout me don't want to mess with hormones!" or the classic "buh my neurosteroids!". You literally cannot live without changing hormones, if you want to do that the only solution is dying. Cause like you said, the very food you ingest in your body does indeed alter your hormonal profile wether you like it or not. People die from peanut butter allergy and I don't see anyone raiding awareness against it. There are also lunnies out there that say that toothpaste ruined their teeth! And there was a whole site against fluoride just like propeciahelp to talk about it🤦♂️. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member BackFromTheBrink Posted July 3, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) We generally end back where we started. If you're extremely anxious about PFS then I honestly think the best course of action is never to take it. Sexual health is important for everyone and i'd suggest it depends upon a good emotional state, and one that is relatively fragile - it's well accepted that sexual performance is impacted by anxiety generally. I'm not sure whether or not finesteride can impact you physically once you've stopped taking it, but a reported and acknowledged side effect for some is impact on mental health. That is a very slippery slope so it may be the catalyst for long term mental health issues which could impact sexual performance. Ultimately you the roll the dice and play the odds. Thankfully I rolled a 6, but acknowledge many don't, and the end result could be side effects meaning the drug cannot be continued or for the very unlucky few, an impact that causes longer term issues. Edited July 3, 2023 by BackFromTheBrink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member baldfighter Posted July 3, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 We are used to the food we eat thanks to evolution. But Fin is very new. Even the medical community is still arguing about this, I don’t think any of us here can say for sure if PFS is real or not. It’s just a personal choice, we believe what we want to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 3, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 10 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said: Thank you for mentioning one of my biggest arguments when it comes to people when talking about "bout me don't want to mess with hormones!" or the classic "buh my neurosteroids!". You literally cannot live without changing hormones, if you want to do that the only solution is dying. Cause like you said, the very food you ingest in your body does indeed alter your hormonal profile wether you like it or not. People die from peanut butter allergy and I don't see anyone raiding awareness against it. There are also lunnies out there that say that toothpaste ruined their teeth! And there was a whole site against fluoride just like propeciahelp to talk about it🤦♂️. This is really not a good argument.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheGreatPretender Posted July 3, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 7 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said: This is really not a good argument.... How so? People talk about messing with hormonal profile, I am merely arguing that you do that everyday without even noticing. Its literally impossible to be alive and not "mess with hormones" regardless on being in meds or not. The "messing with hormones" is simply a poor excuse i'm sorry. I know because I once thought the same and that caused me to enter this mental hellhole, had I been more open minded and I would likely not even be comenting here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 3, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 34 minutes ago, TheGreatPretender said: How so? People talk about messing with hormonal profile, I am merely arguing that you do that everyday without even noticing. Its literally impossible to be alive and not "mess with hormones" regardless on being in meds or not. The "messing with hormones" is simply a poor excuse i'm sorry. I know because I once thought the same and that caused me to enter this mental hellhole, had I been more open minded and I would likely not even be comenting here. It's pretty self-explanatory. There is a difference between your hormonal profile altering from what you ate or how you slept compared to your hormonal profile altering by drastically cutting your levels of DHT through a pharmacological mechanism. Argument by analogy is a poor basis on which to build an argument. It's better to use first principles thinking as a basis for an argument. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheGreatPretender Posted July 3, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 minute ago, GoliGoliGoli said: It's pretty self-explanatory. There is a difference between your hormonal profile altering from what you ate or how you slept compared to your hormonal profile altering by drastically cutting your levels of DHT through a pharmacological mechanism. Argument by analogy is a poor basis on which to build an argument. It's better to use first principles thinking as a basis for an argument. As I said before, there are food alergies that can literally kill you from eating them. Analogy or not this is a fact, yet I dont see people concearned with either of that. There are also chemicals in several food products people buy to eat and they dont seem to care either, lots of them can cause things worser then Finasteride. There is very little evidence on DHT being an important hormone in adulthood and it is known to cause more harm then good. Enlarged Prostate, Prostate Cancer, Acne and Hair Loss just to name a few. This is why for the majority of people its safe to block it, same way for the majority of people its safe to eat foods that others arent able to tolerate. Look i'm not saying that 100% of people are candidates to take Fin, but the majority of people absoutely are and there is enough data to prove it which is why it was FDA approved for treating AGA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 3, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheGreatPretender said: As I said before, there are food alergies that can literally kill you from eating them. Analogy or not this is a fact, yet I dont see people concearned with either of that. Lots of people are concerned with that. What does this have to do with Fin? Very little. If you want to discuss Fin discuss fin, not food allergies. Argument by analogy is messy and not specific. 1 hour ago, TheGreatPretender said: There are also chemicals in several food products people buy to eat and they dont seem to care either, lots of them can cause things worser then Finasteride. Lots of people are concerned with that. What does this have to do with Fin? Very little. If you want to discuss Fin discuss fin, not deleterious chemicals in the food supply. Argument by analogy is messy and not specific. 1 hour ago, TheGreatPretender said: There is very little evidence on DHT being an important hormone in adulthood and it is known to cause more harm then good. Enlarged Prostate, Prostate Cancer, Acne and Hair Loss just to name a few. This is why for the majority of people its safe to block it, same way for the majority of people its safe to eat foods that others arent able to tolerate. Incorrect. See below. DHT plays a role in ocular health, kidney health, liver health, cardiac health, etc etc. You can make an argument that Fin is still safe because it isn't reducing DHT to 0, but saying as you did that "There is very little evidence on DHT being an important hormone in adulthood and it is known to cause more harm then good." shows a high degree of scientific illiteracy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25268392/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24257908/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16317058/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21079217/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19040620/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31074799/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12826696/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629627/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23509861/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24764121/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5964967/ 1 hour ago, TheGreatPretender said: Look i'm not saying that 100% of people are candidates to take Fin, but the majority of people absoutely are and there is enough data to prove it which is why it was FDA approved for treating AGA. My position is that all men are better off at their natural DHT levels (Assuming it's within normal range). My position is that DHT is a super important androgen well past puberty. My position is that it's never good to use pharmacological agents to disrupt your endocrine system unless it's absolutely needed (Hypogonadal men for example). That said, you can make a reasonable argument that Fin is safe if the person taking it has informed consent, because using Fin still leaves you with some DHT. I'm not on board with that argument but nevertheless it's a reasonable argument to make. Edited July 3, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Turkhair Posted July 4, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 6 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said: Lots of people are concerned with that. What does this have to do with Fin? Very little. If you want to discuss Fin discuss fin, not food allergies. Argument by analogy is messy and not specific. Lots of people are concerned with that. What does this have to do with Fin? Very little. If you want to discuss Fin discuss fin, not deleterious chemicals in the food supply. Argument by analogy is messy and not specific. Incorrect. See below. DHT plays a role in ocular health, kidney health, liver health, cardiac health, etc etc. You can make an argument that Fin is still safe because it isn't reducing DHT to 0, but saying as you did that "There is very little evidence on DHT being an important hormone in adulthood and it is known to cause more harm then good." shows a high degree of scientific illiteracy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25268392/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24257908/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16317058/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21079217/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19040620/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31074799/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12826696/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4629627/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23509861/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24764121/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5964967/ My position is that all men are better off at their natural DHT levels (Assuming it's within normal range). My position is that DHT is a super important androgen well past puberty. My position is that it's never good to use pharmacological agents to disrupt your endocrine system unless it's absolutely needed (Hypogonadal men for example). That said, you can make a reasonable argument that Fin is safe if the person taking it has informed consent, because using Fin still leaves you with some DHT. I'm not on board with that argument but nevertheless it's a reasonable argument to make. Bro you completely dismissed his argument where he’s telling you that you DO alter hormones you don’t even know through the food you eat and environment you live in. And ended with the statement that fin is bad because it alters DHT hormone which is the most important hormone in the body. I mean lol 😂 You’re showing extreme bias against finasteride and appear to be a fin hater not willing to entertain any arguments in favour of it. PS: Kevin analysis of the articles you posted showing how weak they are 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheGreatPretender Posted July 4, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Turkhair said: Bro you completely dismissed his argument where he’s telling you that you DO alter hormones you don’t even know through the food you eat and environment you live in. And ended with the statement that fin is bad because it alters DHT hormone which is the most important hormone in the body. I mean lol 😂 You’re showing extreme bias against finasteride and appear to be a fin hater not willing to entertain any arguments in favour of it. PS: Kevin analysis of the articles you posted showing how weak they are One day menkind will realize that we've been messing with hormones all this time and starve till death. /s Now seriously, one of those articles only had one patient as a subject for the study, one! Lots of these are anecdotal and have very little scientific validity to even be taken seriously as proven by Kevin in that video. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 4, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 2 hours ago, Turkhair said: Bro you completely dismissed his argument where he’s telling you that you DO alter hormones you don’t even know through the food you eat and environment you live in. I did dismiss it because it's besides the point. As far as food altering hormones, trust me I bet I know more about this subject than you do. I've been talking about Atrazine's effects on hormones for a long time. But it's besides the point. 2 hours ago, Turkhair said: And ended with the statement that fin is bad because it alters DHT hormone which is the most important hormone in the body. Where did I say DHT is the most important hormone in your body? Now your just lying. Total clown. 2 hours ago, Turkhair said: I mean lol 😂 You’re showing extreme bias against finasteride and appear to be a fin hater not willing to entertain any arguments in favour of it. Incorrect once again. Plenty of guys do seem to tolerate fin well. I still don't think it's great for you to use for your overall health, but I get wanting to keep your hair. I'll watch the Kevin video and respond if I have anything to say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Turkhair Posted July 4, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 3 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said: Where did I say DHT is the most important hormone in your body? Now your just lying. Total clown. … 12 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said: DHT plays a role in ocular health, kidney health, liver health, cardiac health, etc etc. My position is that DHT is a super important androgen well past puberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 4, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Turkhair said: … I'll ask again. Where did I say DHT is the most important hormone? Show me where. You can't. You need to increase your literacy. Edited July 4, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 4, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 11 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said: Now seriously, one of those articles only had one patient as a subject for the study, one! It's called a case report. 11 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said: Lots of these are anecdotal and have very little scientific validity to even be taken seriously as proven by Kevin in that video. No, none of them are anecdotal. I don't think you understand what that word means? 11 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said: One day menkind will realize that we've been messing with hormones all this time and starve till death. I realize you think the food analogy is super smart, but it isn't. If you want to discuss fin discuss fin. Don't hide by discussing other issues. I know far more about endocrine disruptors in the food supply than you do so if you want to talk about that we can but this isn't the topic for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheGreatPretender Posted July 4, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 4, 2023 7 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said: No, none of them are anecdotal. I don't think you understand what that word means? Anecdotal: "not necessarily true or reliable" And those case reports that you talk about lots of them deal with broscience. Hard to take them seriously. 7 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said: I realize you think the food analogy is super smart, but it isn't. If you want to discuss fin discuss fin. Don't hide by discussing other issues. I know far more about endocrine disruptors in the food supply than you do so if you want to talk about that we can but this isn't the topic for it. Its not just food. Its literally everything you do and bragging about having knowledge on something to prove a point doesn't necessarily make you right. Stopping Finasteride due to its side effects is valid and understandable. Not trying it because you "don't want to mess with your hormones" and treating it like you're going to take cocaine or ecstasy is just plain dumb, simple as that. And because of that fearmongering more and more people are driven to surgery when they could have saved their hair all those years ago and they didn't because they gave in to online fearmongering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 5, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said: Anecdotal: "not necessarily true or reliable" And those case reports that you talk about lots of them deal with broscience. Hard to take them seriously. Anecdotal means based on personal accounts. Which of the studies/case reports I posted were based on personal accounts? A case report is a case report, not a personal account. What in any of the studies/case reports I posted deal with broscience? Give me 2 examples. Are you saying you know what qualifies as good or bad science better than the authors of those papers? Maybe you do, I'm often quite skeptical of peer review and "expert opinions" when it comes to human biology. But still it doesn't seem likely that you are a better judge of what is good or bad science than the authors of these papers. 19 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said: Its not just food. Its literally everything you do and bragging about having knowledge on something to prove a point doesn't necessarily make you right. Stopping Finasteride due to its side effects is valid and understandable. Not trying it because you "don't want to mess with your hormones" and treating it like you're going to take cocaine or ecstasy is just plain dumb, simple as that. And because of that fearmongering more and more people are driven to surgery when they could have saved their hair all those years ago and they didn't because they gave in to online fearmongering. I know it's not just food. It's clothes we wear, it's the packaging of the containers we eat/drink out of, it's the air we breath, it's the pesticides used when growing the crops we eat. A year or so ago I said in a different thread that humans in 2022/2023 are "Swimming in a sea of endocrine disruptors". If you search that phrase the thread should come up. Endocrine disruptors are a topic that I am very interested in and know a lot about which is why I find the Fin topic very interesting. But what is the point you are trying to make with this? Are you saying "Well, we are already swimming in a sea of endocrine disruptors, so what's the harm of adding in another one (Finasteride) that is designed to purposefully act as an endocrine disruptor and is far more potent than any of the others given the dosage?" This seems like not so good thinking. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please explain what you're saying because I don't want to misinterpret you. My position is very simple: I think that intentionally disrupting your endocrine system should only be done when absolutely necessary. If slowing down/stopping your balding is necessary to you, then that's fine take all the Fin you want. But let's be honest about what we're doing here, and about the fact that a good bit of evidence shows that DHT plays a lot of very important functions in the male body. Your originally said "There is very little evidence on DHT being an important hormone in adulthood and it is known to cause more harm then good." so in reply I posted a ton of peer reviewed papers stating the contrary. So far your response has been that the papers I posted highlighting DHT's importance are "Bro science" or that it doesn't matter because we're already messing with our endocrine system anyways? Edited July 5, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 5, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 5, 2023 I guess I should also be very clear: No one (Not me, not Kevin Mann, not the scientific community) really knows 100% the safety of lowering your DHT at the levels that Fin lowers it. We're all just looking at data (And yes, anecdotes) to come up with our best possible conclusion given all the evidence we have available. It may be completely safe for most men, it may be completely dangerous for most men. When scientists talk they speak in terms of "Well, this paper seems to suggest that DHT has important functions in neurological health". They will never say "This paper proves that DHT has important functions in neurological health". The former is the proper way to approach the issue, the latter is not. From the evidence I've seen, and given my own personal risk tolerance when it comes to disrupting my endocrine system, I choose not to take it. But that doesn't mean that it's dangerous, it's just the conclusion I've come to. No one really knows the true risk of taking Fin. It could be quite high, it could be quite low. The jury is still out. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member jondoeuk Posted July 8, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 8, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member JayLDD Posted July 14, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 14, 2023 On 7/5/2023 at 8:41 AM, TheGreatPretender said: Anecdotal: "not necessarily true or reliable" And those case reports that you talk about lots of them deal with broscience. Hard to take them seriously. Its not just food. Its literally everything you do and bragging about having knowledge on something to prove a point doesn't necessarily make you right. Stopping Finasteride due to its side effects is valid and understandable. Not trying it because you "don't want to mess with your hormones" and treating it like you're going to take cocaine or ecstasy is just plain dumb, simple as that. And because of that fearmongering more and more people are driven to surgery when they could have saved their hair all those years ago and they didn't because they gave in to online fearmongering. You're philosophically and scientifically illiterate, he isn't. I'd bet a hundred million dollars if you showed this thread and your food analogy to a group of PhD logicians in the philosophy department of Harvard and asked them if this was an appropriate analogy they'd say it wasn't. They'd say its braindead. I'd bet another hundred million that they'd say your quote "don't want to mess with your hormones" is a strawman and on top of that, I'd bet a third hundred million with the English department that they'd agree that your use of quotes here is inappropriate. Also as GoliGoli said people who understand science and logic will virtually never state, especially for something like finasteride, PFS and the effects of long term DHT reduction in the body that one or two studies "prove PFS doesn't exist and long term DHT reduction has no effect on the body" or anything along these lines. As condescending as it sounds you and many others here are too uneducated to have a discussion on an subject like this and you *need* to stop using the veil of "science" when you have absolutely no understanding of what it means. When you're arguing that you have objective scientific proof and you can't even provide a study your opinion is less than worthless. 1 HT1: https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/48494-asmed-koray-erdogan-3070-grafts-april-10th/ HT2: https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/51224-3038-grafts-fue-asmed-koray-erdogan-30th-april/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member DedLifts Posted July 14, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted July 14, 2023 On 7/5/2023 at 12:26 PM, GoliGoliGoli said: No one (Not me, not Kevin Mann, not the scientific community) really knows 100% the safety of lowering your DHT at the levels that Fin lowers it. Not true. Fin has been around since the 90's, and has a ton of real world safely data. Yes, side effects do occur, but unlike Reddit thinks, getting ED is not worse than death. I don't completely agree with Kevin Mann's opinion that "DHT is a trash hormone", but suppressing it will not put your life in danger. I was getting "finasteride" side effects (depression, anxiety, low libido, brain fog) even while not on finasteride. Guess what the cause was? Going bald. Now that I'm using topical Dut, I feel a lot better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 14, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 14, 2023 1 hour ago, DedLifts said: Not true. Fin has been around since the 90's, and has a ton of real world safely data. Yes, side effects do occur, but unlike Reddit thinks, getting ED is not worse than death. I don't completely agree with Kevin Mann's opinion that "DHT is a trash hormone", but suppressing it will not put your life in danger. You're missing my point and conflating two different things. Of course no one is saying suppressing DHT will put your life in immediate danger. But "health" is about more than just "not dying". So when I talk about "safety" and DHT I'm talking about mental health, liver health, kidney health, prostate health, ocular health, cardiac health, and yes sexual/erectile health. Additionally, there have been no long term, large N studies that compare health outcomes of men who use fin and men who don't. The evidence there is points both ways which is very common when it comes to peer reviewed articles. It is a really hard thing to compare because you'd have to control for a huge number of variables when trying to answer the question of whether men who use fin have reduced health outcomes, improved health outcomes, or the same outcomes as men who don't use fin. And this gets to the limitations of relying only on peer reviewed evidence and it's why I say "first principle" thinking is often better way of looking at these things logically. Because from a Darwinian perspective if DHT wasn't useful in the body it begs the question of why your body continues expending energy to produce it for your entire life. And please don't come in here with the "well men have nipples but they aren't useful" because that's a completely different thing. 1 hour ago, DedLifts said: I was getting "finasteride" side effects (depression, anxiety, low libido, brain fog) even while not on finasteride. Guess what the cause was? Going bald. Now that I'm using topical Dut, I feel a lot better. Look, no one is saying you shouldn't use fin or dut. You do you brother. But this whole argument of "well I had depression and anxiety and low libido because of balding" is really not a good argument. You being down about yourself and having these feelings/side effects because of your physical appearance is a completely thing than people having these feelings/side effects from a pharmacological mechanism that interupts your bodies ability to produce one of it's main androgens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member GoliGoliGoli Posted July 14, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) That said, I do believe that anecdotal evidence is useful and shouldn't be dismissed in the way that a lot of "Reddit tier science-bros" scoff at it as automatically useless or something. And there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that a lot of men seem to tolerate huge cuts to their DHT long term without suffering negatively from it as far as they can tell. Now maybe 5 years from now a bunch of studies come out that find that guys who had no outward noticeable symptoms get kidney or liver problems at a higher rate or something, or maybe the opposite comes to be seen. But, humans are 99.9% genetically similar. So if some men get really bad sides from fin, it stands to reason that it's not the best thing for most people to be taking. Yes, medicines can react completely differently in different people due to that 0.1% difference and other differences related to epigentics or how they were raised or something, but when it comes to something as evolutionarily conserved as DHT production, I just find it hard to believe that it doesn't serve a lot of health functions and that severely cutting it is a great thing to do from an overall, holistic health perspective. DHT has been around in animals since HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of years before humans ever were a thing, so when it comes to playing God with that it's just something I'm personally not on board with. Edited July 14, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member jfally Posted August 4, 2023 Regular Member Share Posted August 4, 2023 A very highly regarded HT surgeon we often see here on the forum is giving speaking on Post Finasteride Syndrome at a conference within the next year. I'm hoping the slides or even the presentation is made available so we can all read the latest science/findings. Definitely a polarizing subject seemingly (in my limited research) more full of anecdotes than science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member TheGreatPretender Posted November 13, 2023 Senior Member Share Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) On 7/14/2023 at 1:28 AM, JayLDD said: You're philosophically and scientifically illiterate, he isn't. I'd bet a hundred million dollars if you showed this thread and your food analogy to a group of PhD logicians in the philosophy department of Harvard and asked them if this was an appropriate analogy they'd say it wasn't. They'd say its braindead. I'd bet another hundred million that they'd say your quote "don't want to mess with your hormones" is a strawman and on top of that, I'd bet a third hundred million with the English department that they'd agree that your use of quotes here is inappropriate. Also as GoliGoli said people who understand science and logic will virtually never state, especially for something like finasteride, PFS and the effects of long term DHT reduction in the body that one or two studies "prove PFS doesn't exist and long term DHT reduction has no effect on the body" or anything along these lines. As condescending as it sounds you and many others here are too uneducated to have a discussion on an subject like this and you *need* to stop using the veil of "science" when you have absolutely no understanding of what it means. When you're arguing that you have objective scientific proof and you can't even provide a study your opinion is less than worthless. Condescending? More like ignorant, most of all without any basis in reality or as you'd say "braindead". Its also funny how much lack of respect you show to the rest of the forum by calling us "iliterates" pretending that knowledge lies solely with anyone bearing your opinions. I gave the food example merely as a metaphor since there are people around the world that also claim that things like Fluoride gave them side effects and are against taking Colgate, yes this is real check this: https://fluoridealert.org/issues/health/ But in truth there's people who died for eating peanutbutter for being alergic to the ingredient, should everyone stop eating it just because few had negative reactions while eating it? Finasteride as far as we know didn't really cause any deaths directly to any patient as far as we know. You want the opinion of PHD doctors regarding studies here you have it and I quote: Quote Post-finasteride syndrome (PFS) has been claimed to occur in men who have taken oral finasteride to treat either hair loss or benign prostatic hyperplasia, independent of age, dosage, or indication. By definition, the condition is characterized by sexual dysfunction, somatic symptoms, and psychological disorders that persist after cessation of finasteride treatment. As yet, the condition is not recognized by the medical community, although individuals who suffer from PFS present with relatively homogenous symptoms. The concept of PFS has emerged from reports of non-dermatologists, neuroendocrinological research and reflections, and uncontrolled studies of low quality and with a strong bias selection, while a significant nocebo effect among patients informed about possible side effects of finasteride is recognized. There are no predictive factors for the risk of development of PFS. Nevertheless, it has been suggested that a patient history of preexisting mental health disorder, particularly depression, may put patients at an increased risk. We report the first case of PFS in a long-standing (over 20 years) dermatotrichological practice with frequent finasteride prescription observed in a 25-year-old male following dutasteride treatment for male androgenetic alopecia. There was circumstantial evidence that PFS may represent a delusional disorder of the somatic type, possibly on a background of a histrionic personality disorder, which would explain the refractoriness of the condition and a high degree of suggestibility. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31559258/ And I will say this once more, no drug in the world comes without the risk of side effects, thats a fact. Howeaver Finasteride and Dutasteride have been used by millions for an eternity and they have a very good safety profile already made with all subjects recovering from them upon cessation or letting the body adjust to it. I don't need to place the studies that have been approved from Merk which led to the FDA approval. And regarding the importance of DHT this one should actually lay everything to rest. You can talk everything you'd like but the scientific comunity hasn't really acknowledged much use of the hormone itself after the individual finishes puberty. But just because you have side effects it doesn't mean it is because of the lack of DHT, correlation doesn't always equal causation since its highly possible (and likely) your body converts T into Estrogen with the patient being more sensitive to the hormone itself. The studies Goli (no disrespect to him) placed are all unfinished and do not prove anything, I could also post one that links DHT to heart disease but I don't because the evidence is still scarce, same goes for the importance on the DHT. Quote DHT does not play a significant role in the normal physiology of adults. The most notable effects are prostate enlargement and male pattern hair loss as they age. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK557634/ So in a nutshell there are four things we can conclude: Evidence for the existence of PFS is scarce and not scientificaly acknowledged as a whole. Evidence for the importance of DHT in adulthood is scarce and not scientifically acknowledged as a whole. Evidence for DHT causing Prostate Growth is high and acknowledged by the scientific community and several doctors and urologists. Evidence for DHT causing MPB are well acknowledged by the scientific community and several doctors and dermatologists. Do with it what you will but next time please don't come here fearmonger and insult other people's inteligence because you hold yourself in a higher pedestal. Other people aren't to blame over your iliteracy. Edited November 14, 2023 by TheGreatPretender 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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