Post-Finasteride syndrome discussion on Peter Attila's podcast

[JayLDD]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:13 AM, TheGreatPretender said:

Condescending? More like ignorant, most of all without any basis in reality or as you'd say "braindead". Its also funny how much lack of respect you show to the rest of the forum by calling us "iliterates" pretending that knowledge lies solely with anyone bearing your opinions.

I gave the food example merely as a metaphor since there are people around the world that also claim that things like Fluoride gave them side effects and are against taking Colgate, yes this is real check this:

https://fluoridealert.org/issues/health/

But in truth there's people who died for eating peanutbutter for being alergic to the ingredient, should everyone stop eating it just because few had negative reactions while eating it? Finasteride as far as we know didn't really cause any deaths directly to any patient as far as we know.

You want the opinion of PHD doctors regarding studies here you have it and I quote:

And I will say this once more, no drug in the world comes without the risk of side effects, thats a fact. Howeaver Finasteride and Dutasteride have been used by millions for an eternity and they have a very good safety profile already made with all subjects recovering from them upon cessation or letting the body adjust to it.

I don't need to place the studies that have been approved from Merk which led to the FDA approval.

And regarding the importance of DHT this one should actually lay everything to rest. You can talk everything you'd like but the scientific comunity hasn't really acknowledged much use of the hormone itself after the individual finishes puberty. But just because you have side effects it doesn't mean it is because of the lack of DHT, correlation doesn't always equal causation since its highly possible (and likely) your body converts T into Estrogen with the patient being more sensitive to the hormone itself. The studies Goli (no disrespect to him) placed are all unfinished and do not prove anything, I could also post one that links DHT to heart disease but I don't because the evidence is still scarce, same goes for the importance on the DHT. 

So in a nutshell there are four things we can conclude:

Evidence for the existence of PFS is scarce and not scientificaly acknowledged as a whole.

Evidence for the importance of DHT in adulthood is scarce and not scientifically acknowledged as a whole.

Evidence for DHT causing Prostate Growth is high and acknowledged by the scientific community and several doctors and urologists.

Evidence for DHT causing MPB are well acknowledged by the scientific community and several doctors and dermatologists.

Do with it what you will but next time please don't come here fearmonger and insult other people's inteligence because you hold yourself in a higher pedestal. Other people aren't to blame over your iliteracy. 

You're too stupid to know what constitutes "evidence" and that's what it gets down to. Same with any doctor that can look at the studies from which finasteride was approved and suggests there's good long term data on in relation to young men and long term use of the drug. Simply doesn't exist. Nor does good data on what exactly DHT does and how its long term balance or reduction via Finasteride does. We have tens of thousands or more claiming long term side effects, and no good data on finasteride and long term side effects. Quite frankly, its criminal. Its one thing to claim the evidence for PFS is weak in scientific terms (which is ultimately true) however to claim that there's strong evidence that it doesn't exist or is a factor of mental problems is again, criminal and scientifically illiterate.

The idea that everyone involved is simply mentally ill or has a mental problem is offensive and any doctor saying as such should be fired out of a cannon into a sun. Most people suffering from hairloss who also look for medication are going to have elevated levels of stress and depression as a result, according to this r3tard doctor any medication they take and claim causes sides can be carelessly ignored and blamed on mental illness. Doesn't understand the scientific method, doesn't understand how to interpret data. Like you, except with a fancier education.

[TheGreatPretender]

5 hours ago, JayLDD said:

You're too stupid to know what constitutes "evidence" and that's what it gets down to. Same with any doctor that can look at the studies from which finasteride was approved and suggests there's good long term data on in relation to young men and long term use of the drug. Simply doesn't exist. Nor does good data on what exactly DHT does and how its long term balance or reduction via Finasteride does. We have tens of thousands or more claiming long term side effects, and no good data on finasteride and long term side effects. Quite frankly, its criminal. Its one thing to claim the evidence for PFS is weak in scientific terms (which is ultimately true) however to claim that there's strong evidence that it doesn't exist or is a factor of mental problems is again, criminal and scientifically illiterate.

The idea that everyone involved is simply mentally ill or has a mental problem is offensive and any doctor saying as such should be fired out of a cannon into a sun. Most people suffering from hairloss who also look for medication are going to have elevated levels of stress and depression as a result, according to this r3tard doctor any medication they take and claim causes sides can be carelessly ignored and blamed on mental illness. Doesn't understand the scientific method, doesn't understand how to interpret data. Like you, except with a fancier education.

What is criminal is people that are way stupid such as yourself to understand the simple fact that they have zero arguments to prove something which is fictitious and a conspiracy theory that is ultimately non existent based off science. You are at the pinnacle of illiteracy to place yourself in such a high pedestal to decide wether the data is good or not. Why in the hell didn't we heard about post Finasteride syndrom in the 90s? Care to explain?

What I find it hilarious is that you contradicted yourself once again by agreeing with me regarding clinical evidence on PFS but then you quickly rushed and once again went for the "oh but wait! There's thousands of people claiming that it happened to them!"

Anyone can go and say anything they want on the internet. I can also claim the earth is flat, in fact millions of people still do and that wouldn't make it true so that statement is also invalid and illiterate. 

Mental illness is a possibility and as the study pointed circunstancial evidence exists for alleged PFS sufferers. And once again I tell you that correlation doesn't always equal causation and factors such as other conditions have to be considered rather then blaming it all on the drug which doesn't necessarily have to be mental as it can be anything. It's way too easy to blame everything on the pill when in reality you could have the said condition without even taking it on the first place.

But sure, let's go with doctors are r**, PFS exists and you should be the PHD doctor with years of research into the field instead since you're the most literate person on the planet. 

Because of people like you anyone coming to this thread wanting to start medication will feel paralysed and afraid to even give himself the chance of saving their hair and run the risk of having a lifetime full of isolation and depression. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by TheGreatPretender

[GoliGoliGoli]

6 hours ago, TheGreatPretender said:

What is criminal is people that are way stupid such as yourself to understand the simple fact that they have zero arguments to prove something which is fictitious and a conspiracy theory that is ultimately non existent based off science. You are at the pinnacle of illiteracy to place yourself in such a high pedestal to decide wether the data is good or not. Why in the hell didn't we heard about post Finasteride syndrom in the 90s? Care to explain?

What I find it hilarious is that you contradicted yourself once again by agreeing with me regarding clinical evidence on PFS but then you quickly rushed and once again went for the "oh but wait! There's thousands of people claiming that it happened to them!"

Anyone can go and say anything they want on the internet. I can also claim the earth is flat, in fact millions of people still do and that wouldn't make it true so that statement is also invalid and illiterate. 

Mental illness is a possibility and as the study pointed circunstancial evidence exists for alleged PFS sufferers. And once again I tell you that correlation doesn't always equal causation and factors such as other conditions have to be considered rather then blaming it all on the drug which doesn't necessarily have to be mental as it can be anything. It's way too easy to blame everything on the pill when in reality you could have the said condition without even taking it on the first place.

But sure, let's go with doctors are r**, PFS exists and you should be the PHD doctor with years of research into the field instead since you're the most literate person on the planet. 

Because of people like you anyone coming to this thread wanting to start medication will feel paralysed and afraid to even give himself the chance of saving their hair and run the risk of having a lifetime full of isolation and depression. 

Is your opinion that PFS doesn't exist at all?

What do you say to the people on this forum who when you go back and read their early posts are super supportive of Fin, then later get off it due to sides, and then say those sides are lingering for years and they still don't feel normal? Are these people lying? Or just suffering from other issues and blaming it on Fin? 

[TheGreatPretender]

1 hour ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Is your opinion that PFS doesn't exist at all?

What do you say to the people on this forum who when you go back and read their early posts are super supportive of Fin, then later get off it due to sides, and then say those sides are lingering for years and they still don't feel normal? Are these people lying? Or just suffering from other issues and blaming it on Fin? 

In my opinion the existence of PFS isn't scientifically proven and as such not enough evidence supports it's existence according to the overwhelming majority of doctors, as such I don't believe it exists, simple as that. People who experience side effects years after getting off the drug are likely to have other health issues that may have led to them blaming on Fin or may have fallen into nocebo. It's hard to categorize all of them into one spectrum but I am 100% skeptical regarding permanent side effects on Finasteride.

[GoliGoliGoli]

1 hour ago, TheGreatPretender said:

In my opinion the existence of PFS isn't scientifically proven and as such not enough evidence supports it's existence according to the overwhelming majority of doctors, as such I don't believe it exists, simple as that. People who experience side effects years after getting off the drug are likely to have other health issues that may have led to them blaming on Fin or may have fallen into nocebo. It's hard to categorize all of them into one spectrum but I am 100% skeptical regarding permanent side effects on Finasteride.

So if someone were to tell you "Ya I was 25 years old, got on fin Fin, used it fine for a few years with no issues, then slowly started to develop side effects, and when I quit Fin the side effects continued" you would not believe them and instead think it is other health issues that are causing the side effects they are reporting? 

[TheGreatPretender]

8 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

So if someone were to tell you "Ya I was 25 years old, got on fin Fin, used it fine for a few years with no issues, then slowly started to develop side effects, and when I quit Fin the side effects continued" you would not believe them and instead think it is other health issues that are causing the side effects they are reporting? 

If they continued after cessation? Yes absolutely, even more so if the individual had been on the drug for a number of years. As said before, correlation doesn't always mean causation. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

But you do agree that people do get symptoms from Fin right? You just think it's fake news that the symptoms persist after stopping the drug? Is that an accurate description of your opinion? Asking genuinely.

To me, it seems it would be a very large coincidence that someone would be living a normal life side effect free, get on fin, get sides, stop fin, and then have fins well known side effects continue to persist due to "other health issues" as you said. The timing would be very coincidental ...... These "other health issues" just by chance happen to appear right around the time someone started taking a pharmacological agent that is designed to lower ones androgens? 

This is why first principal analysis is often superior to relying purely on "muh peer reviewed studies". It's true that correlation doesn't equal causation. But what most people don't understand when they use that quote is that a strong enough correlation is often a pretty good signal that there is some causative element at play.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[TheGreatPretender]

1 minute ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

But you do agree that people do get symptoms from Fin? You just think it's fake news that the symptoms persist after stopping the drug?

But isn't it a very large coincidence that someone would be living a normal life side effect free, get on fin, get sides, stop fin, and then have fins well known side effects continue to persist? The timing would be very coincidental it seems...... This is why first principal analysis is often superior to relying purely on "muh peer reviewed studies" 

It's true that correlation doesn't equal causation. But what most people don't understand when they use that quote is that a strong enough correlation is often a pretty good signal that there is some causative element at play.

 

If the person gets persistent symptoms after discontinuing the treatment it likely means they would have gotten the very same symptoms without having used the drug, period. 

People can get health issues out of no where independently of starting or stopping a drug and nocebo is also a factor take into account. If you believe you will get permanent side effects you most likely will, especially if you start believing in people who got them due to the drug itself.

What I mean is for example Finasteride induced ED ends after the drug discontinuation but that doesn't mean the person is free from not getting it due to other factors such as poor diet, schedule, lack of sleep or any other health related issues. Also bear in mind some issues can also be mental via nocebo.

Finasteride may exacerbate the symptom itself if the person is sensitive to the side effects but upon discontinuation that factor pretty much disappears and the hormone levels return to baseline. If the side effects continue then you very likely have other issues that have been undiagnosed.

You do understand that normal people can also get symptoms (similar to Finasteride related side effects) without ever taking the drug right?

[GoliGoliGoli]

Look ... If someone comes to me and says "I had no issues or signs of any issues, but then got on Fin and got its well known sides, and these sides persisted even after I stopped taking it", it seems pretty reasonable to suspect the causative agent is the drug they were on, and not "poor diet, schedule, lack of sleep".... 

Now, is it possible that the causative agent is not the drug and something else? Sure it's possible, in the same way that anything is possible. But doesn't seem likely. 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[TheGreatPretender]

9 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Look ... If someone comes to me and says "I had no issues or signs of any issues, but then got on Fin and got its well known sides, and these sides persisted even after I stopped taking it", it seems pretty reasonable to suspect the causative agent is the drug they were on, and not "poor diet, schedule, lack of sleep".... 

 

 

For you maybe. But it doesn't really take away the fact that evidence directly marking the drug as the causing agent is scarce and not scientifically acknowledged by the overwealming majority of doctors. Regardless of the reason why you think this happens that remains the only fact and you can do with it as you will. 

And I say this once again many times when we get health issues we aren't really predicting these very things to happen to us and they still do. If you are taking a pill while they happen its easier to blame on it then on anything else.

Some fearmongers from propeciahelp even say that something as light as Saw Palmetto gave them Post Finasteride Symdrome. Anyone can say watheaver they want on the internet, that doesn't still make it true. There are people literally claiming to have PFS after taking a single pill of Finasteride which sounds even more ridiculous.

Edited November 15, 2023 by TheGreatPretender

[GoliGoliGoli]

7 minutes ago, TheGreatPretender said:

For you maybe. But it doesn't really take away the fact that evidence directly marking the drug as the causing agent is scarce and not scientifically acknowledged by the overwealming majority of doctors. Regardless of the reason why you think this happens that remains the only fact and you can do with it as you will. 

And I say this once again many times when we get health issues we aren't really predicting these very things to happen to us and they still do. If you are taking a pill while they happen its easier to blame on it then on anything else.

Some fearmongers from propeciahelp even say that something as light as Saw Palmetto gave them Post Finasteride Symdrome. Anyone can say watheaver they want on the internet, that doesn't still make it true. There are people literally claiming to have PFS after taking a single pill of Finasteride which sounds even more ridiculous.

Very recently "the evidence" showed that Oxycontin only caused addiction in less than 1% of patients who used it. Very recently "the evidence" showed that 2 doses of the COVID vaccine provided long term immunity. Very recently "the evidence" showed us that Vioxx didn't cause cardiac issues.  

 

[TheGreatPretender]

1 minute ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Very recently "the evidence" showed that Oxycontin only caused addiction in less than 1% of patients who used it. Very recently "the evidence" showed that 2 doses of the COVID vaccine provided long term immunity. Very recently "the evidence" showed us that Vioxx didn't cause cardiac issues.  

 

And yet decades after the aproval of Finasteride for Hair Loss no definitive evidence has been found for Post Finasteride Syndrome. 

You can use as many alegories as you'd like, fact still stands.

[GoliGoliGoli]

7 minutes ago, TheGreatPretender said:

And yet decades after the aproval of Finasteride for Hair Loss no definitive evidence has been found for Post Finasteride Syndrome. 

You can use as many alegories as you'd like, fact still stands.

What exactly would definitive evidence look like to you? Like what exactly would it take for you to believe that a certain number of people who take Fin end up dealing with persistent side effects? 

Edited November 15, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[TheGreatPretender]

Just now, GoliGoliGoli said:

What exactly would definitive evidence look like to you? 

Enough trials with a large amount of subjects that alegedly suffer from the condition with proper blood test results. The same subjects would also have to be tested against any other possible conditions which they could have.  

But that is me, perhaps a PHD level doctor would provide you a better answer or maybe our iliterate specialist that is allegedly more knowledfull then the overwealming majority of doctors that studied upon the subject.

[GoliGoliGoli]

6 minutes ago, TheGreatPretender said:

Enough trials with a large amount of subjects that alegedly suffer from the condition with proper blood test results. The same subjects would also have to be tested against any other possible conditions which they could have.  

But that is me, perhaps a PHD level doctor would provide you a better answer or maybe our iliterate specialist that is allegedly more knowledfull then the overwealming majority of doctors that studied upon the subject.

I don't think blood tests would show anything, so what exactly would these trials be testing the subjects for? 

[TheGreatPretender]

Just now, GoliGoliGoli said:

I don't think blood tests would show anything, so what exactly would these trials be testing the subjects for? 

Any abnormal hormonal changes that would be permanent due to Finasteride would support their claims but then again you just slipped into one of the reasons why I don't believe on it since it is well known that the majority of people have their 5-AR enzyme return to baseline levels after discontinuating. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

8 minutes ago, TheGreatPretender said:

Any abnormal hormonal changes that would be permanent due to Finasteride would support their claims but then again you just slipped into one of the reasons why I don't believe on it since it is well known that the majority of people have their 5-AR enzyme return to baseline levels after discontinuating. 

I think you have a fundamental lack of appreciation for the complexity of biological symptoms. There is a lot we don't know about how  biological systems interact with each other to produce a desired result, so looking at one variable (5AR in this case) and saying "SEE! LOOK! It returned to normal, therefore PFS is FAKE!" is not really scientifically literate. 

[TheGreatPretender]

9 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

I think you have a fundamental lack of appreciation for the complexity of biological symptoms. There is a lot we don't know about how  biological systems interact with each other to produce a desired result, so looking at one variable (5AR in this case) and saying "SEE! LOOK! It returned to normal, therefore PFS is FAKE!" is not really scientifically literate. 

I am looking at a medication that is meant to block the 5AR enzyme, therefore my focus will be the enzyme levels and not anything else that the medication will touch on. But sure, lets go with "SEE! LOOK! It returned to normal, BUT LOOK AT ALL THE OTHER THOUSANDS OF HORMONES, SURELY IT HAD AN IMPACT, TRUST ME BRO!" level of literacy just like our pal Jay. I hope you're not trying to claim his place as the most literate individual around the entire world and perhaps just maybe the universe itself. Next time I have a problem I might as well consult with him instead of going to a hair loss surgeon or dermatologist. That way I may get bald earlier and get all the wonderfull signs of depression and ED the PFS network loves to talk about. 

Perhaps one good study that could potencialy be done in order for the fearmongers to fully prove their point could be comparing two large groups of the so called "PFS patients" with healthy control group so in a way you could compare someone who took Finasteride and ended up with Sexual Disfunction AND/OR depression comparing with someone who already got these symptoms without having taken a pill.

Is the suicidal tendency different between those two groups?

Are the hormonal levels different in any way such as the famous "neurosteroids" that people love to talk about?

If the above questions would be "Yes" then maybe there could be a basis. MAYBE. 

Some of the questions that could further elaborate if this "alledged" condition has any bearing in reality when reality itself points out being as real as conspiracy theory. 

But we know all damm well that most results will end up returning the same as the drug is washed out of the person's system. And as such all doctors if not most will resort to the correlation not equaling causation.

[GoliGoliGoli]

I didn't read much of the above, but it's a very simple point that is being made.

The point is: It's well known that Fin causes certain side effects in a certain amount of people. We all know what those side effects are. If someone doesn't have any of those sides and starts taking Fin, gets the sides, gets off Fin, and then continues experiencing the sides, you can just use basic reasoning to assume that Fin was the causative agent.

But sure, you can keep thinking it's lack of sleep or diet or something.... You sound like a religious person almost. 

[TheGreatPretender]

15 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

I didn't read much of the above, but it's a very simple point that is being made.

The point is: It's well known that Fin causes certain side effects in a certain amount of people. We all know what those side effects are. If someone doesn't have any of those sides and starts taking Fin, gets the sides, gets off Fin, and then continues experiencing the sides, you can just use basic reasoning to assume that Fin was the causative agent.

But sure, you can keep thinking it's lack of sleep or diet or something.... You sound like a religious person almost. 

Well if you rather be lost in ignorance using broscience then fine. Do like your buddy Jay does and keep fearmongering people into a lifetime of bald misery and depression.

The only true part of that statement is the first half which its fair to acknowledge as being true. The second part howeaver lacks evidence and any basic reasoning. And NO YOU CAN'T 100% assume it was Finasteride since the drug is washed out of the system if we are talking about years after cessation.

And once again you completly ignore the fact that lots of people get all these symptoms without taking the pill, how sure you are that the person wouldn't have gotten that same "side effects" without even taking the drug in the first place? 

As per the last part, I am not thinking anything merely suggesting possible causes that may not have been ruled out and dont worry about the religious part since i'm an atheist so no gods came into equasion when building my logic. Merely two factors, one is science and the other one is reality.