Post-Finasteride syndrome discussion on Peter Attila's podcast

[Rex99]

 Thought this discussion was relevant to this forum. I haven't had serious sides but this discussion does make me think about long term (like 10+ years) risk since that has never really been studied. I'm consideeing switching to a topical approach just to minimize the exposure.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Rex99

[GoliGoliGoli]

Thanks for sharing. Great discussion and good pushback from Attia as well. 

[Chrisno]

You are free to believe what you want. If you understand how Finasteride (and Dutasteride) works, then you also understand why permanent and irreversible side effects of finasteride is total BS.

[Turkhair]

Who is this person and what makes him qualified to speak on this subject authoritatively?

Doctors are like cockroaches, you can find one under any rock. Especially YouTube doctors are the ones that one needs to be very careful of. If they are making money off YouTube, it means they have failed to make it in hospitals. 

The perks of working at hospitals is superior to YouTube so if they’ve resorted to Youtube must mean they suck as doctors in real hospitals.

[JayLDD]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:37 PM, Chrisno said:

You are free to believe what you want. If you understand how Finasteride (and Dutasteride) works, then you also understand why permanent and irreversible side effects of finasteride is total BS.

Spoken like a true pseudo-intellectual scientifically illiterate.

[GoliGoliGoli]

7 hours ago, Chrisno said:

You are free to believe what you want. If you understand how Finasteride (and Dutasteride) works, then you also understand why permanent and irreversible side effects of finasteride is total BS.

Explain it to us then. The Dr provided a reasonable hypothesis in the video for why it’s possible 

[GoliGoliGoli]

2 hours ago, Turkhair said:

Who is this person and what makes him qualified to speak on this subject authoritatively?

Doctors are like cockroaches, you can find one under any rock. Especially YouTube doctors are the ones that one needs to be very careful of. If they are making money off YouTube, it means they have failed to make it in hospitals. 

The perks of working at hospitals is superior to YouTube so if they’ve resorted to Youtube must mean they suck as doctors in real hospitals.

So far both the people who reacted negatively to this thread have had nothing of substance to say in response to the points made in the video. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[mr_peanutbutter]

the video is over 2h long...also these discussion are a bit pointless because everything has been said at at his point

 

- many people tolerate finasteride well

- many dont

- without medication many people will continue losing hair

- for those people its not advisable to get a hairtransplant; or if they do they have to accept that their results are very shortlived and need touch ups, up to a point where they have no donor left (which can happen more easily then people think)

 

the rest is personal choice

 

and i hate to be that guy but...

 

instead of podcast legit studies (randomized controlled trials) would be needed . but maybe they are referring to a new study in the podcast? would be great for sure

Edited July 2, 2023 by mr_peanutbutter

[Chrisno]

1 hour ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Explain it to us then. The Dr provided a reasonable hypothesis in the video for why it’s possible 

He provides hypotheses based on no evidence at all. You need to be critical. This guy is on a podcast to generate views/listeners. It is obvious he doesn't know basic statistics. He might be a doctor, but he's not a researcher, I can tell you that.

[GoliGoliGoli]

3 minutes ago, Chrisno said:

He provides hypotheses based on no evidence at all. You need to be critical. This guy is on a podcast to generate views/listeners. It is obvious he doesn't know basic statistics. He might be a doctor, but he's not a researcher, I can tell you that.

Ok that's fine if you don't agree with his hypothesis, but you said "If you understand how Finasteride (and Dutasteride) works, then you also understand why permanent and irreversible side effects of finasteride is total BS."

So tell us in your own words, how does Fin/Dut work and what about how it works makes it so that permanent and irreversible side effects are BS?

Edited July 2, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[TheGreatPretender]

2 hours ago, JayLDD said:

Spoken like a true pseudo-intellectual scientifically illiterate idiot. 

Riiight. Lets just forget the fact that there is barely any evidence of permanent side effects of these drugs and the fact that people that lurk in forums supporting the idea even say that Minoxidil gave them ED. Worse, some of them even go and talk about how Saw Palmetto ruined their sex life. 

Its ironic that you describe him being "intellectual scientifically iliterate idiot" when in reality he is using proven science as evidence to back up his words.

Are we really going to believe in the findings that have been proven by valid clinical reesearch with hundreds of patients that point out all side effects going away after cessation of use or the words of people who use annecdotes and theories to prove their point?

Edited July 2, 2023 by TheGreatPretender

[JayLDD]

22 hours ago, Chrisno said:

He provides hypotheses based on no evidence at all. You need to be critical. This guy is on a podcast to generate views/listeners. It is obvious he doesn't know basic statistics. He might be a doctor, but he's not a researcher, I can tell you that.

If you have a set of anecdotes, quite literally tens of thousands of anecdotes and you generate a hypothesis from that you don't have "no evidence" you have ten thousand anecdotes. That's the entire point of generating a hypothesis, to test the baseline *evidence* that anecdotes provide as a starting point in the scientific process. Its also more than enough to suggest caution is necessary. 

The reason the literature on finasteride is imperfect is because of scientifically illiterate  like you that parade around with the flag of "science" while understanding nothing about the scientific method or the process of logic in understanding accurately effects of a drug, side effects and more broadly testing a hypothesis. A dodgy study from 30 years ago that you probably haven't actually read and doesn't even study long term effects is enough for you to have made up your mind. 

Moreso, like you also don't understand that a lack of quality evidence like randomized control trials proving PFS is prevalent doesn't mean you can make a claim about something you haven't even tested properly is false or about how you "understand the drug" when we barely have any good information on long term use of the drug at all, let alone potential consequences of extended reduction of A5r and DHT and external effects that can cause. Or potential broader long term effects on the body between populations based on extended use of the drug that go beyond the expected DHT reduction. 

On top of that, many people even dropped out of even the initial trials for the drug due to persisting side effects and there are ample studies, albeit not expansive that show the drug can cause persistent side effects. There are many countries who have health agencies that force health labels on packaging about suicidal ideation and sexual side effects. 

None of the people talking confidently about how they understand the drug could even give a 30 second explanation of the broader effects of what it does outside of reducing a5r and by extension DHT, nor have they read any studies outside of the conclusion section of the FDA trials, and probably not even that. 

Science isn't blindly regurgitating medical consensus and calling it a day, if you're pretending that experiences aren't worth using to generate a hypothesis and test (and pretending no studies exist that show conclusions in conflict with yours) then you shouldn't pretend you know anything about the subject because you lack the intellect to discuss it. 

 

 

 

[JayLDD]

1 hour ago, TheGreatPretender said:

Riiight. Lets just forget the fact that there is barely any evidence of permanent side effects of these drugs and the fact that people that lurk in forums supporting the idea even say that Minoxidil gave them ED. Worse, some of them even go and talk about how Saw Palmetto ruined their sex life. 

Its ironic that you describe him being "intellectual scientifically iliterate idiot" when in reality he is using proven science as evidence to back up his words.

Are we really going to believe in the findings that have been proven by valid clinical reesearch with hundreds of patients that point out all side effects going away after cessation of use or the words of people who use annecdotes and theories to prove their point?

"Using" science as "evidence" would involve quoting or directing to you know, some actual science or data. Of which there is plenty that provides evidence to the contrary and even the largest scale studies on the drug don't test long term side-effects, and certainly don't provide a detailed understanding of broader effects on the body in users through trials.

I mean for fork sake he couldn't even use proper English let alone use "science as evidence". Laughable.

[Fox243]

I think all we can say at this point is there's probably a chance for irreversible side effects. Probably extremely unlikely to both 1) happen to you and 2) happen in a way that alters your life drastically (I'd say both of these combined make PFS -- each of these alone could be common). But there's been enough evidence that you should take the drug knowing that this could be the worst case, and if it happens to you, it's a risk-reward decision you took, and wasn't just something you weren't informed about. As a NW6, I don't think this risk-reward is worth it for me anymore, but if I were a NW1, it would be.

[baldfighter]

Personally, I don't want to take a drug which messes with my hormonal system for the rest of my life. I don't believe anything that messes with my system doesn't leave a consequence, that would be too good to be true. Finasteride was approved to treat hair loss in 1997, I don't think it has been around long enough to fully understand its effects. Hair is nice to have, but health is more important. It's just a personal choice.

Edited July 2, 2023 by baldfighter

[12345]

4 hours ago, JayLDD said:

Spoken like a true pseudo-intellectual scientifically illiterate idiot. 

he got his MD from yahoo.com, not even Google

[Turkhair]

8 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

So far both the people who reacted negatively to this thread have had nothing of substance to say in response to the points made in the video. 

I didn’t watch the video but Haircafe has done extensive job debunking this PFS BS. Refer to his videos.

If finasteride lingered in the body forever, we would take it once and then never have to worry about hairloss. Indeed, when hormonal profile of PFS sufferers were checked, it was all back to normal and baseline. 

There is no doubt side effects happen but for them to be permanent would be magic especially neither hairloss or prostate size is affected permanently - something measurable physically but only the side effects PFS sufferers want to stay permanent. 

Many of the PFS sufferers also live loser like lives, one poster child that appeared on TV was living in mom’s basement, lacked confidence. I mean that is depressive enough on its own. Give them a yacht with many girls on it, PFS would disappear in a moment 😂😂

[TheGreatPretender]

4 hours ago, JayLDD said:

"Using" science as "evidence" would involve quoting or directing to you know, some actual science or data. Of which there is plenty that provides evidence to the contrary and even the largest scale studies on the drug don't test long term side-effects, and certainly don't provide a detailed understanding of broader effects on the body in users through trials.

I mean for fork sake he couldn't even use proper English let alone use "science as evidence". Laughable.

Finasteride has been here way before being aproved for hair loss. People had to use it constantly to regulate the prostate size and never in those days were there any reports among those patients about "permanent side effects". 

There is really nothing special to prove or study. The effects of the drug only last while you take it, after cessation all effect goes away and the enzyme returns to normal levels. Of course its debatable on how long it could take for the drug to fully flush out of the body but the fact remains that no evidence exists for PFS. 

Nocebo is a thing, if you believe something bad will happen it will happen for sure and you will feel like something is wrong with your body just because you took Finasteride.

[Willforhair84]

6 hours ago, JayLDD said:

"Using" science as "evidence" would involve quoting or directing to you know, some actual science or data. Of which there is plenty that provides evidence to the contrary and even the largest scale studies on the drug don't test long term side-effects, and certainly don't provide a detailed understanding of broader effects on the body in users through trials.

I mean for fork sake he couldn't even use proper English let alone use "science as evidence". Laughable.

Hey Jean , I’m sure I read a while back  you was on finasteride, what happened did you suffer from sides ? 
 

there’s quite a few men come out about there post finasteride stories on YouTube etc, even a forum dedicated and funded research into a cure. hard to believe it’s not real even it’s a very rare percentage. One thing thats putting me off.

[Willforhair84]

3 hours ago, Turkhair said:

I didn’t watch the video but Haircafe has done extensive job debunking this PFS BS. Refer to his videos.

If finasteride lingered in the body forever, we would take it once and then never have to worry about hairloss. Indeed, when hormonal profile of PFS sufferers were checked, it was all back to normal and baseline. 

There is no doubt side effects happen but for them to be permanent would be magic especially neither hairloss or prostate size is affected permanently - something measurable physically but only the side effects PFS sufferers want to stay permanent. 

Many of the PFS sufferers also live loser like lives, one poster child that appeared on TV was living in mom’s basement, lacked confidence. I mean that is depressive enough on its own. Give them a yacht with many girls on it, PFS would disappear in a moment 😂😂

Whole point of pfs is it doesn’t stay in the system but it crashes the system 

[Turkhair]

1 hour ago, Willforhair84 said:

Whole point of pfs is it doesn’t stay in the system but it crashes the system 

I wish it crashed hairloss and prostate size permanently 😂

[baldfighter]

Think about things like alcohol, or smoking, even if you stop using it, the damage has been done.

I am not comparing the effect of fin to alcohol or smoking, just want to say you can’t always reverse the effect of something you have been using for years, even if you stop using it.

Edited July 3, 2023 by baldfighter

[JayLDD]

4 hours ago, Turkhair said:

I didn’t watch the video but Haircafe has done extensive job debunking this PFS BS. Refer to his videos.

If finasteride lingered in the body forever, we would take it once and then never have to worry about hairloss. Indeed, when hormonal profile of PFS sufferers were checked, it was all back to normal and baseline. 

There is no doubt side effects happen but for them to be permanent would be magic especially neither hairloss or prostate size is affected permanently - something measurable physically but only the side effects PFS sufferers want to stay permanent. 

Many of the PFS sufferers also live loser like lives, one poster child that appeared on TV was living in mom’s basement, lacked confidence. I mean that is depressive enough on its own. Give them a yacht with many girls on it, PFS would disappear in a moment 😂😂

A drug doesn’t have to remain in your body as you say to cause long term side effects. This had to be one of the absolute stupidest, most blatantly poorly executed claims logically I see everywhere about PFS. 

Example, if you take too much heroin you can damage your heart and liver in the process. Now you can stop doing heroin and the heroin itself will leave the body but it doesn’t follow that just because there’s no more heroin in the body you don’t have long term side effects as a direct result of heroin use regardless of whether or not it remains in the body. Your heart could still be damaged whether or not the substance that caused it itself remains. 

I can just imagine someone who gets severe brain damage from having 50 standard drinks in a night, the alcohol passing their body in a few days and while they’re drooling on themselves and can’t walk you’re there saying “ALCOHOL ONLY TAKES A DAY TO PASS THE BODY THEYRE FAKING IT!!!”

If you’re going to say there’s a lack of high quality medical evidence for PFS that is probably true, but for the love of God please stop this absolutely braindead argument about how long term health issues can only exist if a substance is still in the body. 

Second bad argument is that just because the drug had left the body, and that it has stopped reducing hairloss doesn’t mean that sexual sides couldn’t persist due to other changes in the body. This needs to be tested, among a variety of other potential abnormalities of those who claim PFS against the general population. 

Also, we actually don’t know whether those with PFS who have ceased taking the drug go back to baseline hairloss because this is something you actually need to test properly, not just assume you know the answer while blabbering about “science” with no actual data. 
 

 

 

[JayLDD]

46 minutes ago, baldfighter said:

Think about things like alcohol, or smoking, even if you stop using it, the damage has been done.

I am not comparing the effect of fin to alcohol or smoking, just want to say you can’t always reverse the effect of something you have been using for years, even if you stop using it.

You beat me to it. I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I cringe and question the medical profession when people including doctors use this same argument about the vaccine leaving the body as if that has anything to do with enduring side effects due to changes in the body caused while the body processes the substance. Like you say, these same philosophy 101 failers would never make this claim about a drug like alcohol or using cigarettes, logically its a very clearly bad argument.

Edited July 3, 2023 by JayLDD

[BackFromTheBrink]

2 hours ago, JayLDD said:

You beat me to it. I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I cringe and question the medical profession when people including doctors use this same argument about the vaccine leaving the body as if that has anything to do with enduring side effects due to changes in the body caused while the body processes the substance. Like you say, these same philosophy 101 failers would never make this claim about a drug like alcohol or using cigarettes, logically its a very clearly bad argument.

While I agree with the point about some drugs causing irreversible damage, usually it's clear why that is the case - damage to the lungs from smoking etc. That is measurable through scarring and the impact demonstrable in reduced peak air flow.

What I'm not sure of is what the impact is of finesteride in cases of PFS.

We know DHT returns to normal as will the size of the prostate. What changes?

Terms like 'crashing your system' are hyperbole and indicative of a phenomenon that I don't think is well understood.

Edited July 3, 2023 by BackFromTheBrink