On 'squared hairlines'

[formesenlair]

I am 26 yo and I am wanting to turn my natural NW2.5ish hairline (that I have had since childhood--no balding) into a perfect NW0. I want one with no signs of recession whatsoever. NW0. Such as the attached photos, the model pictured in three of the photos is 32-33 years old and the hairline looks perfectly natural. My interest is motivated less in the desire tout court to have a perfect "youthful" hairline and more in that due to the especially rounded and feminine shape of my forehead, a square hairline would nicely counteract it and harmonize well with the other facial thirds.

Is it possible to produce a natural hairline like this with a hair transplant? (by "natural," I mean the hairline is done very well and convincingly, not "unnatural" in the sense that it "looks unnatural as you age into your 30s"--this second definition of "unnatural" often propagated I am not interested in or convinced by) Has anyone here gotten a transplant, or know of any good cases, where you requested a hairline like this and it was successful? Are there any surgeons in particular you may recommend who have a track record of producing well such hairlines? 

Any insights beyond the usual platitudes circulated on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 29, 2023 by formesenlair

[A_4_Archan]

@formesenlairYeh it can be possible but all the factors related to a good result should be favoring you...bt at this age i don't think its a good idea to attempt a nw0 hairline as usually hairloss is progressive and if you will use so many grafts just for hairline than you will be short of grafts if you loose more of those native hairs and if hairloss would progress at a faster rate...

[Gatsby]

If you are not suffering from MPB then why take the risk of surgery? You have mother nature's hairline. Trying to match the consistency of naturalness carries a few risks that just aren't worth it IMHO. All the best!

[gillenator]

I agree because some permanent shock loss can thin the frontal zone especially the hairline and if that happened, you can’t reverse it!

[GoliGoliGoli]

This is an interesting discussion. Some doctors don't want to return people to NW0 or lower hairlines too much because they think it will look unnatural as the patient ages (I know you said you aren't worried about this definition of unnatural, but you should be). But there was another person on here who was suspected to be a HT surgeon going under a pseudonym who would always respond to these concerns by saying "Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt don't look unnatural at 60!" and basically suggesting it's fine to take guys to NW0 surgically. But I think this is not very good thinking.  Two guys who naturally would have zero hairloss or very little hair loss of course are going to look natural at 60 as NW0, but that doesn't mean a guy who is genetically pre-disposed for baldness will. Their faces are such that their Basically, you want to be careful messing with nature when it comes to hair because just because some A List celebrity looks good at 60 with NW0 doesn't mean it will work for your face to have a natural result as NW0 at 60 or even 40. 

I'll use an extreme example to make my case: An African person would look unnatural and "off" with blue eyes. because their eye color wouldn't fit with the rest of their phenotype. Similarly, a guy like you may not look natural with a NW0 because it wouldn't fit with the rest of your phenotype/facial structure.

I've seen cases on here where I think older guys go too aggressive with the hairline, and to me it looks pretty obvious tbqh. But it varies case to case. 

[Melvin- Admin]

NW0 isn’t logical because hair loss is progressive. Never chase perfection through surgery. 

[baldfighter]

I agree with OP. I don’t see why it’s unnatural to have NW0 at older age. A lot of old guys have NW0 hairline in real life.

The only reason not to get a NW0 HT is limited donor, not because of naturalness. If OP doesn’t have MPB then I think a NW0 HT is fine.

Edited June 29, 2023 by baldfighter

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, baldfighter said:

I agree with OP. I don’t see why it’s unnatural to have NW0 at older age. A lot of old guys have NW0 hairline in real life.

The only reason not to get a NW0 HT is limited donor, not because of naturalness. If OP doesn’t have MPB then I think a NW0 HT is fine.

Those guys don't have MPB. Hair loss is progressive, and donor is finite. NW0 hairline on someone with MPB is never a good idea.

[Turkhair]

11 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

This is an interesting discussion. Some doctors don't want to return people to NW0 or lower hairlines too much because they think it will look unnatural as the patient ages (I know you said you aren't worried about this definition of unnatural, but you should be). But there was another person on here who was suspected to be a HT surgeon going under a pseudonym who would always respond to these concerns by saying "Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt don't look unnatural at 60!" and basically suggesting it's fine to take guys to NW0 surgically. But I think this is not very good thinking.  Two guys who naturally would have zero hairloss or very little hair loss of course are going to look natural at 60 as NW0, but that doesn't mean a guy who is genetically pre-disposed for baldness will. Their faces are such that their Basically, you want to be careful messing with nature when it comes to hair because just because some A List celebrity looks good at 60 with NW0 doesn't mean it will work for your face to have a natural result as NW0 at 60 or even 40. 

I'll use an extreme example to make my case: An African person would look unnatural and "off" with blue eyes. because their eye color wouldn't fit with the rest of their phenotype. Similarly, a guy like you may not look natural with a NW0 because it wouldn't fit with the rest of your phenotype/facial structure.

I've seen cases on here where I think older guys go too aggressive with the hairline, and to me it looks pretty obvious tbqh. But it varies case to case. 

Don’t get a hair transplant either, it’s unnatural

If you’re destined to be bald, it will look unnatural to have hair because your facial structure doesn’t support hair

[GoliGoliGoli]

8 hours ago, Turkhair said:

Don’t get a hair transplant either, it’s unnatural

If you’re destined to be bald, it will look unnatural to have hair because your facial structure doesn’t support hair

You've missed the point. It isn't that one's facial structure doesn't support any hair if they're balding naturally, it just doesn't usually support NW0. Very few guys after a certain age have a facial structure that does match with a NW0 hairline. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[formesenlair]

 

On 6/29/2023 at 11:53 AM, GoliGoliGoli said:

This is an interesting discussion. Some doctors don't want to return people to NW0 or lower hairlines too much because they think it will look unnatural as the patient ages (I know you said you aren't worried about this definition of unnatural, but you should be). But there was another person on here who was suspected to be a HT surgeon going under a pseudonym who would always respond to these concerns by saying "Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt don't look unnatural at 60!" and basically suggesting it's fine to take guys to NW0 surgically. But I think this is not very good thinking.  Two guys who naturally would have zero hairloss or very little hair loss of course are going to look natural at 60 as NW0, but that doesn't mean a guy who is genetically pre-disposed for baldness will. Their faces are such that their Basically, you want to be careful messing with nature when it comes to hair because just because some A List celebrity looks good at 60 with NW0 doesn't mean it will work for your face to have a natural result as NW0 at 60 or even 40. 

I'll use an extreme example to make my case: An African person would look unnatural and "off" with blue eyes. because their eye color wouldn't fit with the rest of their phenotype. Similarly, a guy like you may not look natural with a NW0 because it wouldn't fit with the rest of your phenotype/facial structure.

I've seen cases on here where I think older guys go too aggressive with the hairline, and to me it looks pretty obvious tbqh. But it varies case to case. 

This is a fair point; certainly a NW0 would not work on everyone. My sense in how these discussions usually proceed however is that a NW0 is ruled out as a matter of principle since it is "unnatural" or rarely, even a prejudice against youthfulness, instead of taking a more holistic approach that contextualizes the hairline in the face overall. I can't say a NW0 is, by default, unnatural, since there are many cases to the contrary and in any case, I don't buy some of the previous posters' claims that Mother Nature always does the best job. If Mother Nature was beyond reproach I would still have breathing issues because of a deviated septum and we all would be dying of sepsis from a minor cut in our 30s. In my case, having a baseline since childhood NW2.5 all, I would worry more about the NW0 looking "unnatural" because it doesn't fit my facial structure, or because the surgeon does a poor job drawing or executing a NW0, more than it being "unnatural" because I never had it to begin with or because they supposedly become "unnatural" by default if you're over 30.

The question coming out of your post seems to be: do you have the right face for a NW0 hairline. That is basically my question as well.  Brad Pitt and the model pictured in the original post (Sean O'Pry), for example, have very different facial structures but a NW0 works very well on both. What aspects of facial structure need to be considered when deciding whether a NW0 is an appropriate choice, or just with drawing hairlines altogether? Do most hair transplant surgeons have the proper aesthetic eye for determining which face shapes can harmonize well with a NW0 hairline? I have some reservations answering affirmatively to the second question since almost all hairlines I see in before-afters are, more or less the same, so I am wondering the extent to which hair surgeons (and patients, probably) are ruling out NW0s as a matter of principle, instead of taking a more holistic approach to the face. If this is true, then perhaps to some degree they can't be blamed since that would be a question more for a cosmetic surgeon than a dedicated hair surgeon. But my hope is that my perception here is flawed and that there there are some surgeons who are more holistic about it than others. If a NW0 does indeed work on my face, I don't want to be pressured into a NW1-2 by surgeons and fellow patients.

This is all assuming, of course, there are no other constraints--they have no MPB or long-stabilized MPB, they have plenty of donor supply, they are on finasteride, etc. It's really the cases in which those constraints, such as mine, are not present, that I am interested in. I am trying to isolate the constraint of face shape being convenable to a NW0.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by formesenlair

[GoliGoliGoli]

10 minutes ago, formesenlair said:

In my case, having a baseline since childhood NW2.5 all, I would worry more about the NW0 looking "unnatural" because it doesn't fit my facial structure, or because the surgeon does a poor job drawing or executing a NW0, more than it being "unnatural" because I never had it to begin with or because they supposedly become "unnatural" by default if you're over 30.

No one is saying NW0 hairlines become "unnatural by default if you're over 30". Not sure where got the impression that anything of the sort was being said. 

 

13 minutes ago, formesenlair said:

The question coming out of your post seems to be: do you have the right face for a NW0 hairline. That is basically my question as well.  Brad Pitt and the model pictured in the original post (Sean O'Pry), for example, have very different facial structures but a NW0 works very well on both. What aspects of facial structure need to be considered when deciding whether a NW0 is an appropriate choice, or just with drawing hairlines altogether? Do most hair transplant surgeons have the proper aesthetic eye for determining which face shapes can harmonize well with a NW0 hairline? I have some reservations answering affirmatively to the second question since almost all hairlines I see in before-afters are, more or less the same, so I am wondering the extent to which hair surgeons (and patients, probably) are ruling out NW0s as a matter of principle, instead of taking a more holistic approach to the face. If this is true, then perhaps to some degree they can't be blamed since that would be a question more for a cosmetic surgeon than a dedicated hair surgeon. But my hope is that my perception here is flawed and that there there are some surgeons who are more holistic about it than others. If a NW0 does indeed work on my face, I don't want to be pressured into a NW1-2 by surgeons and fellow patients.

This is all assuming, of course, there are no other constraints--they have no MPB or long-stabilized MPB, they have plenty of donor supply, they are on finasteride, etc. It's really the cases in which those constraints, such as mine, are not present, that I am interested in. I am trying to isolate the constraint of face shape being convenable to a NW0.

It's not really as easy as "what aspects of facial structure need to be considered when deciding when a NW0 is appropriate". You can post pictures if you want but there isn't really a checklist of things I can give you. When someone looks unnatural due to cosmetic surgery you can just tell. 

You are saying you are on Fin already and have been for a while with no side effects? You have no MPB currently or any in your family? 

[formesenlair]

51 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

No one is saying NW0 hairlines become "unnatural by default if you're over 30". Not sure where got the impression that anything of the sort was being said. 

My impression comes from a lot of exploration of discussions regarding achieving square or NW0 hairlines on this website and similar ones. I don't have any sources of anyone saying verbatim that NW0 hairlines are "unnatural by default if you're over 30." With that, I meant that without knowing anything about the patient, their particular situation, or their facial structure,  people may respond to those inquiring about NW0 transplants by saying "You will regret it as you get older" or some variation of that phrase without even necessarily citing concerns regarding exhausting donor supply. This leads me to think there is a sizable contingent that rules out outright NW0 transplants.

The question of whether their facial structure would work well with a NW0 rarely arises. This kind of loss of specificity or talking past one another could well just be due to the nature of how ideas circulate on the Internet. In any case with this thread, I'm just trying to highlight the challenges of finding more specificity into this issue and raise some doubts on the grounds on which I have felt surgeons and patients alike have diminished NW0 transplants. And to be clear: I didn't mean to suggest that was what you were saying.

 

51 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

It's not really as easy as "what aspects of facial structure need to be considered when deciding when a NW0 is appropriate". You can post pictures if you want but there isn't really a checklist of things I can give you. When someone looks unnatural due to cosmetic surgery you can just tell. 

You are saying you are on Fin already and have been for a while with no side effects? You have no MPB currently or any in your family? 

The question you've quoted I don't think is easy to answer at all, but it does indeed get at the heart of the issue. It would certainly be difficult for us laymen to answer. Yes, it is easy for anyone to tell whether a NW0 transplant result looks unnatural, but it is not easy for us to determine, in the process of informal hair transplant consultation, whether based on a patient's facial structure, a NW0 hairline would work well on them. Answering that latter question would likely require a cosmetic surgeon or a hair transplant surgeon with an acute aesthetic sense. For them, my guess is that the process of determining whether a NW0 would be an appropriate approach would not take the form of a checklist but a holistic aesthetic assessment. But I do hold out hope there are perhaps ways for us to get an idea of it before visiting surgeons.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by formesenlair

[GoliGoliGoli]

8 minutes ago, formesenlair said:

My impression comes from a lot of exploration of discussions regarding achieving square or NW0 hairlines on this website and similar ones. I don't have any sources of anyone saying verbatim that NW0 hairlines are "unnatural by default if you're over 30." With that, I meant that without knowing anything about the patient, their particular situation, or their facial structure,  people may respond to those inquiring about NW0 transplants by saying "You will regret it as you get older" or some variation of that phrase.

The question of whether their facial structure would work well with a NW0 rarely arises. This kind of loss of specificity or talking past one another could well just be due to the nature of how ideas circulate on the Internet. In any case with this thread, I'm just trying to highlight the challenges of finding more specificity into this issue. And to be clear: I didn't mean to suggest that was what you were saying.

It's a great point and one I say all the time. On forums like these you often hear people give "default answers" to anyone who comes asking questions. This is because so many new people come here and ask the same question over and over, so responders don't have time to delve into persons medication usage, family history of baldness, financial situation that will allow for multiple HT's, donor availability etc. Every patient is completely different in regards to these 4 variables and many other variables that make their case unique. But because responders don't have time to delve into everyone's individual case, they respond with "Stock answers" or "Default answers". An example from my personal experience is that people told me not to do crown work before doing hairline work, and that's a "default answer" on here and is probably true for 90-95% of guys. But for me I'm really glad I did crown work and no hairline work.

In your case, I'd worry not about what NW0 looks like at 30, I'd worry about what it looks like at 45 and beyond. 

 

12 minutes ago, formesenlair said:

The question you've quoted I don't think is easy to answer at all, but it does indeed get at the heart of the issue. It would certainly be difficult for us laymen to answer. Yes, it is easy for anyone to tell whether a NW0 transplant result looks unnatural, but it is not easy for us to determine, in the process of informal hair transplant consultation, whether based on a patient's facial structure, a NW0 hairline would work well on them. Answering that latter question would likely require a cosmetic surgeon or a hair transplant surgeon with an acute aesthetic sense. For them, my guess is that the process of determining whether a NW0 would be an appropriate approach would not take the form of a checklist but a holistic aesthetic assessment.

 

Yep exactly. Maybe someone with really good photoshop skills could help, but even that is a risk because a photoshop rendering will not be able to mimic what your result will look like. 

 

[baldfighter]

Can someone post a picture of an unnatural NW0 guy? Let's assume that the HT was done properly, no multi's in hairline, no bad angles, hairline not ridiculously low, just a normal NW0, would it look unnatural on an old guy?

[Phillyman1996]

31 minutes ago, baldfighter said:

Can someone post a picture of an unnatural NW0 guy? Let's assume that the HT was done properly, no multi's in hairline, no bad angles, hairline not ridiculously low, just a normal NW0, would it look unnatural on an old guy?

 

[Turkhair]

17 hours ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

You've missed the point. It isn't that one's facial structure doesn't support any hair if they're balding naturally, it just doesn't usually support NW0. Very few guys after a certain age have a facial structure that does match with a NW0 hairline. 

This is very subjective though. And it’s usually people who had HT themselves that can spot one. 

To give an example, I was completely oblivious to people who had hair transplants now I can spot them from a mile away. 

Hairs look good, period. If a person looks ugly with hair, he will look far ugly without hair. The more youthful the hairline, the better it looks. 

I haven’t seen an unnatural looking NW0. Except of some TikToker who had his hairline lowered into negative norwoods 😂as a very young guy. But to be honest, it kind of grows on you. 

All people with hair grow it long and hide their forehead completely. 

Like I said it’s subjective though and maybe even cultural. What looks good to me could look unnatural to you. I laughed at feminine looks of BTS but they’re a big thing in their country and people go through surgery to look like them. 

[Fue3361]

10 hours ago, Phillyman1996 said:

 

To be fair, his hairline does not look unnatural.  It just looks too low aesthetically due to proportions.  He could easily have had a NW0 hairline a bit higher up, and it would look great.  This photo is not a good example of "NW0 is bad", but of "he went too low based on facial proportions".

I'll chime in to what most people here already said.  If you have progressive balding, you probably can't afford the grafts to go back to full NW0, as it's simply too many.  You don't have infinite donor.

If on the other hand, you're similar to me, and have no balding, go for it.  Just make sure you have a good surgeon.  To get a NW0 look, you usually need temporal work, and that is very hard to do.  Most surgeons will leave you looking like a clown as they're simply not good enough for temporal peaks.

I had mine done, and the result is great, but be careful and make sure you do your research when contemplating it.

[Phillyman1996]

15 minutes ago, Fue3361 said:

To be fair, his hairline does not look unnatural.  It just looks too low aesthetically due to proportions.  He could easily have had a NW0 hairline a bit higher up, and it would look great.  This photo is not a good example of "NW0 is bad", but of "he went too low based on facial proportions".

I'll chime in to what most people here already said.  If you have progressive balding, you probably can't afford the grafts to go back to full NW0, as it's simply too many.  You don't have infinite donor.

If on the other hand, you're similar to me, and have no balding, go for it.  Just make sure you have a good surgeon.  To get a NW0 look, you usually need temporal work, and that is very hard to do.  Most surgeons will leave you looking like a clown as they're simply not good enough for temporal peaks.

I had mine done, and the result is great, but be careful and make sure you do your research when contemplating it.

Yes yours looks amazing I'm also looking for temporal peak work

[formesenlair]

On 7/1/2023 at 5:13 AM, Fue3361 said:

To be fair, his hairline does not look unnatural.  It just looks too low aesthetically due to proportions.  He could easily have had a NW0 hairline a bit higher up, and it would look great.  This photo is not a good example of "NW0 is bad", but of "he went too low based on facial proportions".

I'll chime in to what most people here already said.  If you have progressive balding, you probably can't afford the grafts to go back to full NW0, as it's simply too many.  You don't have infinite donor.

If on the other hand, you're similar to me, and have no balding, go for it.  Just make sure you have a good surgeon.  To get a NW0 look, you usually need temporal work, and that is very hard to do.  Most surgeons will leave you looking like a clown as they're simply not good enough for temporal peaks.

I had mine done, and the result is great, but be careful and make sure you do your research when contemplating it.

This is helpful to know. Are there any surgeons  youve  heard of that are especially good with the temples?

My short list right now is Keser, HLC, and Bisanga but I will have to see how they do with  temples.

[Turkhair]

4 hours ago, formesenlair said:

This is helpful to know. Are there any surgeons  youve  heard of that are especially good with the temples?

My short list right now is Keser, HLC, and Bisanga but I will have to see how they do with  temples.

There are very few doctors who can do temple work. I think the European ones do - couto, Ferreira etc 

[Fue3361]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:55 PM, formesenlair said:

This is helpful to know. Are there any surgeons  youve  heard of that are especially good with the temples?

My short list right now is Keser, HLC, and Bisanga but I will have to see how they do with  temples.

I might be biased, but I think my surgeon is the best when it comes to temples, he does an amazing job with them.  But his style is very specific (he tends to do them more horizontal/boxed in usually.  Though I've seen variation depending on facial structure.  I had him do mine and they turned out amazing.

[formesenlair]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:17 AM, Fue3361 said:

I might be biased, but I think my surgeon is the best when it comes to temples, he does an amazing job with them.  But his style is very specific (he tends to do them more horizontal/boxed in usually.  Though I've seen variation depending on facial structure.  I had him do mine and they turned out amazing.

I will look into him although a european surgeon would be ideaal since that is closer to me.

 

Your results look incredible by the way!