Westminster Medical Group - Discussion about graft numbers

[Silent123]

On 10/16/2023 at 9:32 AM, dntv said:

Hi Davies, sorry for the late reply. I have this account linked to a mailbox that I'm not monitoring.

I've attached photos from the 6 month mark. It turned out as I expected it to when I made this post. The density is not great, but it's not terrible. As for the distribution, the sparser patch on my left side that I pointed out in the original photos is still there, but I'm parting my hair towards my left to cover it. So if you see my right side in the photos being a bit sparse, my left side is even worse if I parted it the other way.

Anyways, I'm not entirely unhappy, it's still better than before and it could have been worse, but it could also have been better. If I had to do it again, I would choose more carefully. And yes, of course I'm moving on with my life, what else will I do? 😄

 

Dude, welcome back! Though you are 6 months growth only. As others have said wait until 12 months post op before casting judgement on the final outcome. Showing some good early growth at halfway stage 👍

[Westminster Medical Group]

Dear HRN Forum & dntv

We have been informed of this post by our customer base, and advised to respond as there appears to be confusion regarding dntv's treatment and 6 month progress photos.

dntv originally signed up as a promotional hair transplant patient which includes life long support and complimentary touch up services should he require further intervention. dntv was unsure about hair loss medication which we strongly recommended for a gentleman in his 30's who may lose more native hair which is not DHT resistant. The transplanted hair is resistant to the DHT hormone, however the native non transplanted hair isn't, hence the recommendation to preserve this through medication.   

Dr. Sebastian Deme recommended a higher and more conservative hairline at this stage, taking into account possible future usage with how dntv will mature over the years ahead. It is always wise to run the 'just in case' scenario should one continue to lose native hair, hence conserving donor hair which isn't infinite, and only transplanting what is required at this stage to cosmetically improve one's look, plus ensure a degree of future-proofing for the years ahead.

dntv underwent a successful FUE procedure and was in regular communication with our medical team throughout the recovery phase as normal. We discovered dntv was upset regarding his treatment via the forum post rather than the post-op email exchanges. We are saddedned dntv has decided to halt his promo and future support as our promotional client, though we respect his decision.

Whilst it is easy for patients to focus on the graft numbers, ultimately it is the hair count which matters most, plus the end result at 12 - 24 months once the hair transplant fully matures. It is true that hair grafts are often doubled up in the same lateral incision hole where required as mentioned by other posters in this thread. This is common practice in hair restorative surgery. 

dntv has had 1,800 grafts implanted via FUE totalling 3,995 hairs which covered his frontal third through to crown area. We're estimating dntv has between 3,500 - 4,000 grafts remaining between FUE and utilising an FUT strip should he continue to lose native hair as he prefers to keep his hair longer, though luckily dntv's hair loss isn't aggressive though the option is there. 

The FUE graft breakdown is as follows:

370 single FU's
705 doubles FU's
725 triple FU's

 

Total hair count 3,995

Here we attach dntv's 6 month progress report where upto 50% of the final result can be observed at this stage:

 

Typically, from 6 - 12 months is where most of our patients see notable change, with new hairs continuing to emerge and the calibre and texture of the transplanted hairs beginning to normalise, as at first the transplanted follicles tend to grow wiry and wispy. Full maturation of the hair is often achieved at 15 - 24 months post-op which is universally acknowledged amongst hair transplant surgeons. Some patients do choose to have touch up procedures in time should they wish to refine, though this is best performed at 12 months post-op once the final growth is observed.

We wish dntv every success in the future, and do hope he keeps the forum updated with his progress approaching the 12 month post-op mark in February 2024. Here dntv will see the final transplanted growth before the hair maturation stage takes effect come 15 - 24 months until fully matured.

Best wishes,

WMG Team London

[dntv]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:51 PM, Westminster Medical Group said:

which includes life long support and complimentary touch up services should he require further intervention

First time I hear about this. Convenient of you to mention it after I'm "no longer a promotional patient". Anyway, don't worry, I'm not interested in coming back.

On 10/20/2023 at 3:51 PM, Westminster Medical Group said:

Dr. Sebastian Deme recommended a higher and more conservative hairline

I actually recommended Dr. Sebastian to go a bit higher in order to preserve more of my donor area, which is why I got so upset when I found out about the huge difference in the graft numbers.

I know very well the numbers that you claim. All I asked for you is to explain in a logical way how we got from the 1800 grafts and 1750 incisions that you claimed, to the ~1400 extractions and ~1075 incisions that I counted. You did the surgery, surely you must know what you did. Your continuous failure to do so only means one thing to me.

On 10/20/2023 at 3:51 PM, Westminster Medical Group said:

Whilst it is easy for patients to focus on the graft numbers, ultimately it is the hair count which matters most

Ultimately, it is honesty which matters most.

See you at month 12.

[Westminster Medical Group]

Good afternoon dntv, thanks for responding, it is nice to hear from you after all this time.

All full promotional patients of WMG are offered this, hence why they sign up for promo typically. This is fairly standard amongst hair transplant clinics to offer life-long services with promotional patients who work with the clinic. You're more than welcome to fly back to the UK at any time should you wish to come and discuss your case and progress. 

Regarding the higher hairline, this is always suggested for gents with your level of hair loss. This was mentioned in your online assessment email before attending your consultation. ''We advise leaving your hairline slightly higher, with a small amount of natural recession in the corners. This will lend itself well into your later years and look age appropriate as you mature.''

The graft numbers we have on file are believed to be accurate, and certainly correspond to the large section of your scalp from frontal third to crown implanted using only 1,800 grafts from your reserve donor bank. Forgive us, though we are skeptical of your own counts and claims during the recovery phase. 

 

For most men there's between 5,000 - 7,000 usable grafts in the donor region before the area is considered thinned or 'moth eaten' so to speak. Usually for a large case of hair loss (Norwood 5 - 6) the plan is to plant 2,000 grafts in the frontal third region, 2,000 grafts in the midscalp region and 2,000 grafts in the crown area to give you a rough idea of the numbers needed for full coverage. Hence going higher with your hairline, thus conserving your donor region simultaneously should you need further intervention at a later date. Forward planning is crucial with all our hair transplant patients. 

 

Hair loss medication should still be considered. Topical Finasteride is a great alternative to oral Finasteride and has shown to be very effective, by inhibiting the activity of 5-alpha-reductase, which converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), mostly without the side-effects associated with taking the oral 1mg version. It is definitely worth considering for your native hair. As you know the transplanted hair is DHT resistant and will grow permanently. 

Kindly keep the forum posted at 12 months post-op. Our clinic door is always open for you at anytime dntv.

Best wishes,

WMG Team London

 

 

[jaypee2502]

What is 'promotional patient'? Can anyone clarify

[HairFunk]

4 hours ago, jaypee2502 said:

What is 'promotional patient'? Can anyone clarify

It means the patient has agreed to promotional activity, including photos and videos once the result comes. Usually for free or at a heavy discounted rate. 

Interesting response by Westminster Medical above, the timeline shows a cosmetic difference at only 6 months after.

Keep us posted OP once you get to 1 year!

[Melvin- Admin]

21 minutes ago, HairFunk said:

It means the patient has agreed to promotional activity, including photos and videos once the result comes. Usually for free or at a heavy discounted rate. 

Interesting response by Westminster Medical above, the timeline shows a cosmetic difference at only 6 months after.

Keep us posted OP once you get to 1 year!

I don’t think this was the promotion they were expecting 🥴

[HairFunk]

You're not wrong Melvin! It's certainly an odd post 🥴

[Silent123]

2 hours ago, HairFunk said:

You're not wrong Melvin! It's certainly an odd post 🥴

Very odd, he's essentially publicly bashing the clinic and surgeon !

[jaypee2502]

i want to be a promotional patient 😁

[consequence]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:34 AM, Westminster Medical Group said:

The graft numbers we have on file are believed to be accurate, and certainly correspond to the large section of your scalp from frontal third to crown implanted using only 1,800 grafts from your reserve donor bank. Forgive us, though we are skeptical of your own counts and claims during the recovery phase. 

I mean he literally counted each scab. I'm more skeptical of the numbers you guys reported. Even if you claim that not every follicle leaves a mark, which I don't think is the case, that's just a massive discrepancy.

Edited November 8, 2023 by consequence

[DavidSheer]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:51 PM, Westminster Medical Group said:

Dear HRN Forum & dntv

We have been informed of this post by our customer base, and advised to respond as there appears to be confusion regarding dntv's treatment and 6 month progress photos.

dntv originally signed up as a promotional hair transplant patient which includes life long support and complimentary touch up services should he require further intervention. dntv was unsure about hair loss medication which we strongly recommended for a gentleman in his 30's who may lose more native hair which is not DHT resistant. The transplanted hair is resistant to the DHT hormone, however the native non transplanted hair isn't, hence the recommendation to preserve this through medication.   

Dr. Sebastian Deme recommended a higher and more conservative hairline at this stage, taking into account possible future usage with how dntv will mature over the years ahead. It is always wise to run the 'just in case' scenario should one continue to lose native hair, hence conserving donor hair which isn't infinite, and only transplanting what is required at this stage to cosmetically improve one's look, plus ensure a degree of future-proofing for the years ahead.

dntv underwent a successful FUE procedure and was in regular communication with our medical team throughout the recovery phase as normal. We discovered dntv was upset regarding his treatment via the forum post rather than the post-op email exchanges. We are saddedned dntv has decided to halt his promo and future support as our promotional client, though we respect his decision.

Whilst it is easy for patients to focus on the graft numbers, ultimately it is the hair count which matters most, plus the end result at 12 - 24 months once the hair transplant fully matures. It is true that hair grafts are often doubled up in the same lateral incision hole where required as mentioned by other posters in this thread. This is common practice in hair restorative surgery. 

dntv has had 1,800 grafts implanted via FUE totalling 3,995 hairs which covered his frontal third through to crown area. We're estimating dntv has between 3,500 - 4,000 grafts remaining between FUE and utilising an FUT strip should he continue to lose native hair as he prefers to keep his hair longer, though luckily dntv's hair loss isn't aggressive though the option is there. 

The FUE graft breakdown is as follows:

370 single FU's
705 doubles FU's
725 triple FU's

 

Total hair count 3,995

Here we attach dntv's 6 month progress report where upto 50% of the final result can be observed at this stage:

 

Typically, from 6 - 12 months is where most of our patients see notable change, with new hairs continuing to emerge and the calibre and texture of the transplanted hairs beginning to normalise, as at first the transplanted follicles tend to grow wiry and wispy. Full maturation of the hair is often achieved at 15 - 24 months post-op which is universally acknowledged amongst hair transplant surgeons. Some patients do choose to have touch up procedures in time should they wish to refine, though this is best performed at 12 months post-op once the final growth is observed.

We wish dntv every success in the future, and do hope he keeps the forum updated with his progress approaching the 12 month post-op mark in February 2024. Here dntv will see the final transplanted growth before the hair maturation stage takes effect come 15 - 24 months until fully matured.

Best wishes,

WMG Team London

Informative response! There looks to be a cosmetic improvement for only 6 months growth. Strange many are quick to jump to the conclusion this hasn’t worked at 6 months. Madness. C’mon guys 😂

Let’s see what the final result is like at the 1 year mark 👍

[dntv]

On 11/5/2023 at 8:11 PM, consequence said:

I mean he literally counted each scab. I'm more skeptical of the numbers you guys reported. Even if you claim that not every follicle leaves a mark, which I don't think is the case, that's just a massive discrepancy.

Thank you. That's what I've been saying all along, the hair is not going to sprout from nowhere, it will only sprout from where you planted them. And this you can see from day 1, you don't need to wait 18 months. I posted the post-op photos too in my first post, so feel free to count yourselves.

[dntv]

It's one year today, so I'm posting some more photos that I took last night. Not much has changed since 6 months other than the length of the hair, but I didn't expect it to anyway. Say whatever you want or spin it however you like, I don't think this is a great result.

[Melvin- Admin]

Density could be better. Not good, but not terrible either. It looks fairly natural. Did you receive a discount for this promotion? What did that promotion entail? 

[HairFunk]

Very hard to tell you’ve had any work done in all honesty. As Melvin said looks natural. Perhaps another small pass with 300 grafts to complete?

[Silent123]

Hey man, definitely not an awful result though could be a little bit thicker on that one side. Frontal hairline looks very soft and natural. Do you have any before photos? 

[Chrisno]

1 hour ago, HairFunk said:

Very hard to tell you’ve had any work done in all honesty. As Melvin said looks natural. Perhaps another small pass with 300 grafts to complete?

I think he's probably looking at closer to 700-1000 grafts to be honest. Density needs to be close to his natural density behind his new hairline. If not, it's going to look like there is a hairline behind the hairline.

Edited February 24 by Chrisno

[HairFunk]

15 minutes ago, Chrisno said:

I think he's probably looking at closer to 700-1000 grafts to be honest. Density needs to be close to his natural density behind his new hairline. If not, it's going to look like there is a hairline behind the hairline.

You might be right. I was looking at that one side only which is a bit see through. I guess it depends if he wants the big wall of hair look or is happier to have the softer / irregular hairline look. Still a touch up would be good 

[Lenzman]

I agree with everyone else it could be a bit thicker. Why not head back and have a small refinement? 

Your result looks similar to this guy who was also wondering about more density (same surgeon)

 

[dntv]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:20 PM, Melvin- Admin said:

Density could be better. Not good, but not terrible either. It looks fairly natural. Did you receive a discount for this promotion? What did that promotion entail? 

I was originally quoted £4495 for 1500 grafts (without the PRP), but after the consultation the doctor recommended 1600-1800 grafts which they said they would do for the same price if I accept to have my photos on the website with blurred face. But in the end it seems like I didn't even get the original 1500.

[dntv]

I like the naturalness of the hairline, but I find the density poor and with big irregular gaps, which kind of ruins it.

About a touch up, I don't feel like shaving my head again, unless someone can do it without shaving the top (I don't mind the sides).

But anyway I wouldn't go back to this clinic. They have lost my confidence and the relationship is ruined anyway.

[dntv]

On 2/24/2024 at 1:51 PM, Lenzman said:

I agree with everyone else it could be a bit thicker. Why not head back and have a small refinement? 

Your result looks similar to this guy who was also wondering about more density (same surgeon)

 

 

I think this is a good result, but I don't think it's similar to mine 😛

[Silent123]

Hey man, I’d just got and have the touch up if the offer was there. It’s not uncommon to have refinement work done. A lot of people have had 2 hair transplants 👍

[Broni]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:20 PM, Chrisno said:

I think he's probably looking at closer to 700-1000 grafts to be honest. Density needs to be close to his natural density behind his new hairline. If not, it's going to look like there is a hairline behind the hairline.

I would say at least thousand grafts for density, everything below that would end up being underwhelming. Hairline and immediate zone behind it, to neutralize the see-through effect.