I'm a mod for Reddit's Hair Transplant sub. I am making a direct call for HRN's leadership to actually listen to their own amazing community and remove Dr John Diep of Los Gatos CA from their list

[mister_25]

4 minutes ago, asterix0 said:

Sure, but the alternative of this site not existing is a much larger detriment to all of us than some arbitrary list.

Ultimately, this site is the Admin's sandbox, you can play by his rules, or you are always free to "take your ball and go home". Plenty of bandwidth on the internet for you to make your own site/forum as well.

To be clear, I wish it wasn't like this, my position is just, this place has pros and cons, I try to contribute positively and objectively always, as I feel the truth is most important, but I also have no financial stake in anything here.

 

HRN and the recommended list are seperate entities in a partnership when you really think about it. But many people, veterans and new, see it as it’s official label, The Hair Restoration Network and Hair Restoration Networks List of Recommended Surgeons. It’s a small healthy alteration that would greatly serve both the list itself and HRN as a whole if Diep was removed.

Everyday is a opportunity to make rights, keeping Diep and likewise individuals on a list with such merit is committing a strong wrong. 

Pinto, Ferreira and Couto are some of the worlds best and they aren’t on the list. And they are highly recommended on this forum, it’s just a example as how the list and HRN itself are seperate entities. Sure the site is super important but by name it’s connected to the list and the people who are not informed of the fact that the community’s interests and the list are not aligned will pay the price.

[asterix0]

I interpreted a financial stake to mean, the participation in this forum, either with my positive or critical commentary, will lead me to profit somehow.

My praise of a result yields 0 change to my bank account.

My criticism of a result yields 0 change to my bank account.

Me logging off this forum and never logging back in yields 0 change to my bank account.

This forum being closed down forever, if the Admin so chooses, yields 0 change to my bank account.

[asterix0]

5 minutes ago, mister_25 said:

HRN and the recommended list are seperate entities in a partnership when you really think about it. But many people, veterans and new, see it as it’s official label, The Hair Restoration Network and Hair Restoration Networks List of Recommended Surgeons. It’s a small healthy alteration that would greatly serve both the list itself and HRN as a whole if Diep was removed.

Everyday is a opportunity to make rights, keeping Diep and likewise individuals on a list with such merit is committing a strong wrong. 

Pinto, Ferreira and Couto are some of the worlds best and they aren’t on the list. And they are highly recommended on this forum, it’s just a example as how the list and HRN itself are seperate entities. Sure the site is super important but by name it’s connected to the list and the people who are not informed of the fact that the community’s interests and the list are not aligned will pay the price.

I agree with you. All I'm saying is, I hope a layperson wouldn't take the list as some gospel and do research for themselves. 

I can understand an 18 year old kid who's desperate might. But an adult who has some working experience and has lived in the real world should know by now there is no free lunch out there. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by asterix0

[mister_25]

1 minute ago, asterix0 said:

I agree with you. All I'm saying is, I hope a layperson wouldn't take the list as some gospel and do research for themselves. 

I can understand an 18 year old kid who's desperate might. But an adult who has some working experience and has lived in the real world should know by now there is no free lunch out there. 

Agree with everything you said here. I’m 22 and started researching HTs when I was 20. And at one point I was that desperate 18 year old. That’s who will fall for labels like “Best country to get your hair back”. The average 18 year old can afford a hair mill botch job, but won’t be able to afford a top doc repair. But let’s say the 18 year old in desperation decided to play it “safe” and went to what he believed was a trustworthy sources recommendation (HRNs list) and got a subpar or unnatural result. The financial impact is huge, the emotional impact is huge, the impact on self esteem and confidence would be catastrophic. Going into cosmetic surgery and looking worse than what you came in I can imagine would be a absolutely horrible way to remember your late teens to early twenties.

[A Fue Good Men]

Well done OP. Lots of good evidence you’ve cited of sub par work. He really crossed the line with the latest case where he operated on a 21 year old patient and left him with a horrible strip scar among other issues. Diep needs to go asap!

[deeznuts]

2 hours ago, JoDimaggio22 said:

Yes on Reddit censorship is far more common. I’ve even been banned from subs for giving encouraging advice to someone and that isn’t what the sub wanted because it is “creepy” I guess to tell someone not to fix anything about themself because they look great the way they are. I think Reddit needs to be looked at with giving moderators too much power and this site has perfect allowance of what one can and can’t say

The issue with being an unpaid moderator is that the people who want it are often people with too much free time (i.e. teenagers, the unemployed) or those receiving financial compensation via other avenues (i.e. political subreddits, moderators receiving $ in order to promote certain products). HRN is transparent that they're getting money from XYZ doctor to promote them. Reddit moderators could be getting $$$ from Cinik, Hitler, and Bin Laden and we wouldn't even know

The issue with being a paid moderator is that obviously they're being paid but at the very least there is some transparency in that regard. We all know the Dr. Diep is paying the HRN so we can take everything promoting him with at least a grain of salt

Edited December 16, 2022 by deeznuts

[deeznuts]

I really hate this reddit style of "witch hunting" where they try to publicly put people on trial like they're listing off all the crimes by the accused. It's honestly why I dislike a lot of the reddit community and all their moral grandstanding + holier-than-thou attitude. Where they just pop up into a thread and start accusing people of stuff by telling everyone they're a reddit moderator + making demands like a child rather than acknowledging they have 6 posts, 0 credibility and are just going onto another forum to more or less incite arguments.

First off, reddit moderator doesn't really that much. Any bum can be a reddit moderator if they have enough free time and don't have to go to work like the rest of us. A 5 year old can be a reddit moderator. Not that we even have proof that you're a reddit moderator, as lowly of a position as that is

Secondly, it's well within Melvin's rights to defend a doctor since iirc he's a former patient of Dr. Diep. Obviously, he should refrain from mixing his personal opinion with the forum's official stance but beyond that, I don't see any issue with Melvin saying he likes Dr. Diep. You can even see Melvin's HT with Dr. Diep. At best, he could add a disclaimer when defending Dr. Diep.

Third, from what I've seen on this forum, there have been several "accusations" against Dr. Diep. If it was really their agenda to make Dr. Diep look like a saint then I would probably have never read any of them. There's clearly been some open discussion regarding Dr. Diep. I do recall reading people saying he plants his grafts in rows (like corn) for example.

Fourth, the HRT has been pretty open that they are receiving money from doctors. 

Fifth, just like Melvin is getting paid... We have no proof that you aren't. You could literally be Dr. Diep's biggest competitor. Not like you've been a contributing member of the community lol. 

And no, I'm not defending Dr. Diep, I've never posted about him in my life and have 0 interest in going to him. Don't think he's all that great of a doctor based on his results... If you don't like Dr. Diep, just call for him to be removed instead of writing all that crap

Edited December 16, 2022 by deeznuts

[HappyMan2021]

9 minutes ago, deeznuts said:

reddit moderator doesn't really that much. Any bum can be a reddit moderator if they have enough free time and don't have to go to work like the rest of us.

I'm not sure why you say this?

Wallaby seems very knowledgable and passionate. 

Employment also has zilch to do with moderation. I have a demanding full time job and am still very active on this site and Reddit. I'm at my office right now as I type this 🤣

Melvin has a full-time job that is completely removed from the hair transplant world. If Melvin can be a super active moderator in addition to his day job, who is to say a Reddit moderator can't do the same?

[deeznuts]

16 minutes ago, HappyMan2021 said:

I'm not sure why you say this?

Wallaby seems very knowledgable and passionate. 

Employment also has zilch to do with moderation. I have a demanding full time job and am still very active on this site and Reddit. I'm at my office right now as I type this 🤣

Melvin has a full-time job that is completely removed from the hair transplant world. If Melvin can be a super active moderator in addition to his day job, who is to say a Reddit moderator can't do the same?

Yeah it's not really the same as browsing forums while working from your office. The issue is that moderation takes time and is basically a commitment. Most people do not have that kind of free time to do things like moderating a subreddit for free as a lot of it just ends up being dealing with reports and other crap like that. It's one thing to discuss topics that interest you and another to engage in what is essentially janitorial work deleting posts where some dude calls another dude names...  I go on various forums as well but that doesn't mean I'm willing to commit time to moderating boards. If you've got a family, a full time job... You find yourself running out of time pretty quick in regards to volunteering your free time dealing with one guy reporting another guy because he said his head was fat. You might still enjoy the conversations on FUE vs FUT but that's not really what forum moderation is. 

I'm more pointing out that it's not really a credential. If he really was against Dr. Diep, he should have just logged on and posted like a normal person. It's just as bad of a look to have 6 posts and make call out threads like this under the authority of being a reddit moderator

Melvin gets paid so it's literally his job. It's different compared to an "unpaid" moderator who honestly could be getting paid by everyone from Cinik to Bin Laden

I respect the passion, I just don't like the way a lot of the reddit community goes about things

Edited December 16, 2022 by deeznuts

[asterix0]

32 minutes ago, deeznuts said:

I really hate this reddit style of "witch hunting" where they try to publicly put people on trial like they're listing off all the crimes by the accused. It's honestly why I dislike a lot of the reddit community and all their moral grandstanding + holier-than-thou attitude. Where they just pop up into a thread and start accusing people of stuff by telling everyone they're a reddit moderator + making demands like a child rather than acknowledging they have 6 posts, 0 credibility and are just going onto another forum to more or less incite arguments.

First off, reddit moderator doesn't really that much. Any bum can be a reddit moderator if they have enough free time and don't have to go to work like the rest of us. A 5 year old can be a reddit moderator. Not that we even have proof that you're a reddit moderator, as lowly of a position as that is

Secondly, it's well within Melvin's rights to defend a doctor since iirc he's a former patient of Dr. Diep. Obviously, he should refrain from mixing his personal opinion with the forum's official stance but beyond that, I don't see any issue with Melvin saying he likes Dr. Diep. You can even see Melvin's HT with Dr. Diep. At best, he could add a disclaimer when defending Dr. Diep.

Third, from what I've seen on this forum, there have been several "accusations" against Dr. Diep. If it was really their agenda to make Dr. Diep look like a saint then I would probably have never read any of them. There's clearly been some open discussion regarding Dr. Diep. I do recall reading people saying he plants his grafts in rows (like corn) for example.

Fourth, the HRT has been pretty open that they are receiving money from doctors. 

Fifth, just like Melvin is getting paid... We have no proof that you aren't. You could literally be Dr. Diep's biggest competitor. Not like you've been a contributing member of the community lol. 

And no, I'm not defending Dr. Diep, I've never posted about him in my life and have 0 interest in going to him. Don't think he's all that great of a doctor based on his results... If you don't like Dr. Diep, just call for him to be removed instead of writing all that crap

The problem is you have to save people from themselves nowadays. The level of critical thinking in almost every field, politics, technology, the environment, is very low. The exceptions are the actual people architecting these things.

So, I can understand from this perspective why the list is important. Although, if someone is dead set on going to a hair mill to save $, I don't think a bad review here or there, or the absence of a recommendation is going to mean much.

This is the type of person that went to google reviews, watched a few YouTube videos, and decided to take the plunge.

 

 

[Melvin- Admin]

Wallaby,

I'm a bit saddened that you would resort to this sort of mud slinging where you post second hand information and hearsay with a few threads, some that are duplicated. 

First of all, @baldlivesmatter asked me to change the title of his thread to 'repair' because he felt pressured by the community, but he decided to change it back. I did not tell him to do so or ask him to change the thread either way. 

Quote

Touching back on Melvin and Pat vs the HRN community. Melvin and Pat often use 'we're', as if them and the community are a single entity, but the community is better the both of them

If i'm referring to Pat and I, wouldn't I use 'we're' ? I agree, the collective is always better than the one or two people, that's why our community is and continues to be the best community. That is why we have a  recommendation process, which includes the input of our entire community.  Every other list on the internet is added by one person like Spencer or Tillman, not a collective community. It is not one person approving any surgeon. You mentioned Spencer Kobren and the Bald Truth, Spencer is the one making millions of dollars per year with no transparency, not HRN. I bet you don't even know that negative threads aren't public on Bald Truth Talk forum, if you have a negative complaint the thread is moved to a 'private' section. The only person who would benefit from this is the surgeon. People ask how much I get paid, not enough to deal with this sort of slander. 

Quote

So Melvin is basically lying when he says "I don’t get paid by any surgeon.". Yeah, he has the technicality, but surgeons pay to sponsor the website who gives money to Melvin. Omitting this information is deceptive, and is basically lying. Sure you can argue the technicality of the lie, but the deception is clear and honestly makes no difference ethically. People absolutely have the right to know the financial conflicts of interest of any information they get

I am not paid by any surgeon, that is not a lie. I am paid by Pat whether a surgeon is on the recommended list or not.  I am paid by Pat the owner of this site. I am not paid nor have I ever been compensated by any surgeon. I have never omitted the fact that I am paid for my time. To be honest, i'm not paid enough to be dealing with this character assassination and slander. 

We do not, nor have we EVER kept a surgeon because they pay sponsorship fee. We could add 100 surgeons to our list easily, we have had hair mills offer us top dollar to be recommended, but that would never fly because our community would never allow it. Our recommendation process includes input from the community, that's called checks and balances. 

Now, to the substance of the thread. I have been aware of some poor cases from Dr. Diep, both Pat and I have been observing his work behind the scenes. There is no surgeon that gets it right every time. We have complaints from a lot of surgeons behind the scenes, very respected ones, that doesn't mean they are bad surgeons. But consistency is key. You mentioned Jimcraig, he created his thread in 2020, at the time Dr. Diep had little to no negative threads. 

In my opinion, Jim doesn't have a botched result, yes the hairline can be softened by creating more micro-irregularities. I think it can be classified as falling below the mark, but certainly not a botch job like you claim and many claim on Reddit. 

The side of his hairline in question that lacks micro-irregularities. 

When you examine a surgeons body of work, you need to examine it as a whole. You have posted one thread asking for advice, one thread that doesn't even have an update. Two threads that are of the same member. One thread that has no pictures, there is another member 'Bigwilly' that posts pictures, but at the time the former Moderator David couldn't confirm he was even a patient. Then you posted a patient @MrAr who returned to Dr. Diep for a touch-up he said this:

Quote

 I went back told dr.diep what I didn't like and he was very helpful and understanding . If it's 1 thing about dr. Diep the yield and graft survival rate on his work is very high . Wich made me go back . Happy I did so he really went in and did exactly what I wanted 

Then you post "should I switch from Hasson to Diep," this isn't even a review, it's filled with opinions. I have a problem with blindly following narratives or dogmatic views without doing research yourself. I have been moderating for years and have been a member of this forum for almost a decade. In that time, I have seen that when three or more people repeat the same view, it becomes common knowledge without doing any fact checking or research, this thread and your post is good example of this. You're taking a lot of second hand information and opinions and passing it off as factual. As for the case with the graft discrepancy, the member himself requested to delete the thread. I was working behind the scenes with this patient, as I have done countless times. As for the poster "whattheFUE" he was a previously banned poster that had an axe to grind against Dr. Feller, who is no longer on our list btw. Creating duplicate accounts goes against our terms of service. Jimcraig was also caught doing this going under a pseudonym str8npluggy. 

 This thread would have it seem like Dr. Diep has been producing botch jobs for years and we've turned our nose to it, which isn't the case. I've done an extensive job pulling up past and recent threads of his work, so the community can examine it without my or Wallaby's input. I have always stated that my opinions are just that, opinions. I am one person, HRN is a collective community. The fact that you would post such a thread on this forum with links shows how transparent our community is, and if we were really censoring and hiding things, you wouldn't be able to post such a thread, nor would you be able to link these threads. If threads have been removed, they have been removed per the request of the member. Members often request to remove threads for various reasons including privacy. We are the only forum that hosts negative threads about sponsored surgeons, we do not hide them in a private section, we do not take the thread down either. You claiming this is disingenuous and slanderous. 

 Here are some threads spanning back to 2014. I have not included posts with one before and after, or posts without updates, as those independent reviews hold little relevance in examining a surgeons portfolio.

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Community,

I have spoken to @Pat - Community Publisher, and we both agree that we will leave this decision up to you. I ask that you please examine each of these threads in great detail, do not take any outward bias either from me or from @Wallaby_Upstairs. Judge the results independently from any one else's opinions or observations. If the community believes we should suspend Dr. Diep's recommendation, we will do it. I would expect Wallaby to post this reply with all of the relevant threads that have been shared, so his community can also draw their own conclusions, separate from his opinion. 

I want to end this by saying, it is very easy for wallaby to throw accusations at us, when he has zero risk or liability. We have been involved in nearly a dozen lawsuits that have cost our community over 100k dollars. Protecting free speech isn't free. We are obligated to verify the legitimacy of claims and part of being an open, fair and transparent community is allowing physicians to share their side of the story. If we start making claims based on second hand information or hearsay, that is not only 'reckless' as wallaby says, it can open us up for litigation. We are a professional site, we are not a subreddit. 

https://hairlosslearningcenter.net/dr-armani-lawsuit-against-hair-transplant-network

[Pbaird98]

Its the decline in results from 2020 onwards that is most concerning. In particular the latest one we have here which is just inexcusable. We have to go on the quality/consistency of current results and not rely on past performance, this is more than a blip in my view, more a pattern of now poor or mediocre results, or just flat out horrible as the most recent shows.

All the threads and results prior to the decline in quality are largely irrelevant when deciding on if he should be included in 2022/2023. 
It was the latest result that tipped it for me, more than a misfire it fails on every level. 

[Fue3361]

He has gotten lazy from all accounts that I’ve seen lately.  Rushed consultations, row implant patterns (he himself wrote many years ago that rows are bad and unnatural looking.  He goes against his original philosophy), unprofessional environment with his techs, among other complaints.

 

All this while charging more than most top tier surgeons.  I could never ethically recommend him for anyone.  Not sure how the forum can do so in good faith anymore.

[Z--]

I support the removal from the recommended list. Don't think the censorship claims are true (esp. compared to other forums), but that's a separate discussion -- along with the bizarre back-and-forth between the mods of HRN and Reddit -- neither of which are particularly fruitful in the context of doing what's most useful. 

For the purposes of moving forward, can we please just have a separate and unbiased thread put up ASAP allowing the community to post and decide?

[Pbaird98]

23 minutes ago, Z-- said:

I support the removal from the recommended list. Don't think the censorship claims are true (esp. compared to other forums), but that's a separate discussion -- along with the bizarre back-and-forth between the mods of HRN and Reddit -- neither of which are particularly fruitful in the context of doing what's most useful. 

For the purposes of moving forward, can we please just have a separate and unbiased thread put up ASAP allowing the community to post and decide?

Yes agree with this, could be voted as per some other threads, poll? 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Pbaird98

[Melvin- Admin]

42 minutes ago, Pbaird98 said:

Its the decline in results from 2020 onwards that is most concerning. In particular the latest one we have here which is just inexcusable. We have to go on the quality/consistency of current results and not rely on past performance, this is more than a blip in my view, more a pattern of now poor or mediocre results, or just flat out horrible as the most recent shows.

All the threads and results prior to the decline in quality are largely irrelevant when deciding on if he should be included in 2022/2023. 
It was the latest result that tipped it for me, more than a misfire it fails on every level. 

I don’t agree that cases prior are irrelevant. While I agree, recent cases hold the most weight, a surgeons full portfolio matters. For example, if a surgeon had really poor results, and only recently started producing good results, those bad results need to be taken into account. That said, I agree on the last point. 

[Melvin- Admin]

28 minutes ago, Z-- said:

I support the removal from the recommended list. Don't think the censorship claims are true (esp. compared to other forums), but that's a separate discussion -- along with the bizarre back-and-forth between the mods of HRN and Reddit -- neither of which are particularly fruitful in the context of doing what's most useful. 

For the purposes of moving forward, can we please just have a separate and unbiased thread put up ASAP allowing the community to post and decide?

I agree, I would rather not get into a mudslinging match, but I felt compelled to correct some of these accusations when the allegations can cause a lot of harm to our community, especially when they're not true. 

I will create a separate thread with a poll for the public to decide like Elon Musk. I think that is fair and a good way to go about it. 

[Pbaird98]

6 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I don’t agree that cases prior are irrelevant. While I agree, recent cases hold the most weight, a surgeons full portfolio matters. For example, if a surgeon had really poor results, and only recently started producing good results, those bad results need to be taken into account. That said, I agree on the last point. 

Thats ok we can agree to disagree for the first part, getting on the forum list is one thing, clearly was doing good work before, but its the here and now that matters, at least we agree on that. 

[Melvin- Admin]

Here is the topic. I will lock this thread and everything else can be posted on this topic.