Eugenix Norwood 6 Journey - 4628 Grafts

[GeneralNorwood]

5 hours ago, caveman said:

@GeneralNorwood thanks you for giving me illustrations of what plan I should have moving forward. I greatly appreciate it. I know you keep it real. That being said, I am curious, why are you so against my plan? The corners of my hair transplant are really bothering me so I’m not sure I would be happy keeping the deep recession. I know donor graft count is critical in a case like mine. I reviewed your case too so I’m wondering are you warning me from your personal experience? The hairline and temporal angles that you completed with eugenix are probably like 80% more aggressive than where I am at right now. I believe adding a couple hundred grafts to round out my corners would make me happier and will look nicer. 
 

I met dr sethi in Philly a few months ago and at the time I believe he said he could get an additional 3500-4000 scalp grafts from my donor. Beard grafts would be additional. I suspect perhaps 500-700 could reinforce my midscalp, and another 1800 or so could help cover my entire crown. 
 

after reviewing your personal experience, I understand why you are pushing me towards keeping the current hairline and working behind it. That being said, I believe that if you had a much more conservative hairline with receding corners, you may not have been as pleased with your outcome either. Your hairline and FTA are perfect. Like too perfect 😂 so I wouldn’t bring things down as much as you but am looking to subtly modify what I already have without wasting many grafts on the hairline. 
 

I am viewing lots of patients like Melvin, yourself, Armen, bandit, etc who are all adjusting the hairline with minor changes that result in a way more pleasing aesthetic. You are concerned for me about adding density throughout the midscalp and reinforcing the current hairline but do you think it would be really that dangerous to fix the corners if it’s something that would make me happier with myself? 
 

im not trying to turn your points away because I definitely understand and agree with them. That was why I agreed to this conservative hairline design in the first place. Rather I’m trying to get your feedback for a plan that would involve fixing the corners (I just want to round them off a little bit, they look so sharp and pointy right now and don’t match my facial features) as they are really bothering me even though I know you are against it. If your corners were receded the way mine are I really do think that you might not be as happy with your overall result at the end of the day. 
Do you see any plan in which I can round the corners off minimally while still focusing on adding density throughout the midscalp and crown?

 

 

If i could turn back time, i would make hairline 1-1.5 cm higher and not so straight and i would save 1000+ grafts because of this move and i would put it behind hairline. 

 

And i would wear hairstyle similar to this and corners wouldn't be visible anyway. But guess what. This fringe on my forehead would be even denser then on this picture if i put this 1000 grafts from the hairline behind. 

 

if you implant hair in midscalp and grow it longer, after 12 months it will cover your forehead too, so it will make density not only for midscalp, but also for frontal third and for forehead. If you implant your hair in the corner, it will cover your forehead, but not midscalp, so it is waste for the density. 

 

You can't compare our cases to Mazab, because he is only Norwood 3 and used 5000+ grafts anyway. So if he used so many grafts, ask yourself how many you need. 

 

Simply, if you use grafts to implant them in the corners, when you don't have hair, they won't make ilussion of density for area behind hairline.

So it's a choice between filling a corner with number of grafts with balding/less dense look behind hairline or putting this grafts behind current hairline that will create density not only behind the hairline, but it will make density for the corners too, when you grow this hair longer,

 

Speaking about beard grafts, so you are aware that 3500-4000 grafts from the scalp is not a lot to fulfill your plan. Well, beard grafts are hit or miss and definitely the more you use beard grafts, it is more likely that it will look like "bird nest". Generally, i am not fan of beard grafts and i like my beard too and don't want to lose density from it. You can see on this forum cases from Eugenix  that included beard grafts and caused a lot of trouble. 

 

What i propose to you is not only based on my own experience, but also on consultations with various surgeons and what i learned from them and of course based on lot of cases that i saw online. 

 

You will do as you want, but if you go aggresive in your 2nd transplant, then extracting grafts from the hairline in the future is problematic as you may know and require multiple procedures and lot of funds. 

So maybe it's better to take it slow and focus on bald areas behind hairline and see how after this procedure density in the front will look and how corners will look. And then if you are still not pleased how corners look, you can adjust your plan. 

 

Edited May 13 by GeneralNorwood

[caveman]

@GeneralNorwood great thoughts and suggestions. So I spent pretty much all day going through your post again and I do consider what you are telling me to be very productive and legit information.

Alright so you’d be willing to have more recession and wouldn’t mind the larger wider forehead. I will take this into consideration based on your experience. Also the hairstyle you like combed forward would definitely resolve the recession I just don’t know my hair will grow like that. 

one thing is for sure. What I didn’t do is plan on the first sitting (even though I thought I did) I think marking off sections of the head and measuring for the actual size of recipient area and then calculating available donor grafts is important. Also knowing what my target density per section is key. We did not do that at all in my first transplant.  I definitely must do that this time. I also don’t even know my current densities in different areas of scalp and I am curious if it is still possible to achieve the density that I am looking for.

 

I really like the hairstyle you have in the picture you posted. I’d be happy with something like that. However, I also do want to sport hairstyles where my forehead can be exposed and look good still. Do you believe I could achieve that with just adding density behind the current hairline? My left temporal angle is so receded that when I grew my hair out and did a combover my head looked crooked (this is because as I comb the long hairs from left to right it covers much of the right side of my hairline making it look lower on that side and significantly receded on the other side).

my thoughts with the corners is “ if I can use less than 200 grafts just to round off my corners to make them a bit more subtle, will those 200 grafts be detrimental in the density behind my hairline?” Now I may be mistaken with this low number of grafts so correct me if I am wrong. If the doctor says I need 1000 grafts to soften the corners I will drop the idea for sure. However if I am able to strategically address that concern with minimal grafts I think it may be a good idea. As far as keeping my sides short currently, it is because when I grow my hair out without cutting it, it looks really bad, especially the sides. If the next procedure allows me to homogenize this area with extractions, I would love to grow it out as I also like that look.
 

I would prefer not to use beard grafts unless needed as I also love my beard. Probably more than my potential hair haha. You mention 3500-4000 grafts wouldn’t be enough to get full coverage at my current state. Do you think I will require more grafts than that? I thought with between 2800-3500 I could achieve max desired density. I will have some consultations to determine what my actual plan can be. I may have to fly/ go somewhere to have an in person consultation as you did with zarev ( I don’t think I can wait to go to zarev though). 

[GeneralNorwood]

11 hours ago, caveman said:

 

one thing is for sure. What I didn’t do is plan on the first sitting (even though I thought I did) I think marking off sections of the head and measuring for the actual size of recipient area and then calculating available donor grafts is important. Also knowing what my target density per section is key. We did not do that at all in my first transplant.  I definitely must do that this time. I also don’t even know my current densities in different areas of scalp and I am curious if it is still possible to achieve the density that I am looking for.

 

 

 

Well, that's not the kind of informations that are gathered by Eugenix, because measuring takes time. 

11 hours ago, caveman said:

my thoughts with the corners is “ if I can use less than 200 grafts just to round off my corners to make them a bit more subtle, will those 200 grafts be detrimental in the density behind my hairline?” Now I may be mistaken with this low number of grafts so correct me if I am wrong.
 

 

200 grafts is like 5cm2 with 40grafts/cm2 density. So imagine area of 10cm x 0,5 cm. So you can lower 10 cm of hairline by 0,5 cm. 

Can you send a photo of straight face (something like my avatar picture) with hairline visible? Photo made from 2 meters at least (not a selfie). 

 

12 hours ago, caveman said:

 

I would prefer not to use beard grafts unless needed as I also love my beard. Probably more than my potential hair haha. You mention 3500-4000 grafts wouldn’t be enough to get full coverage at my current state. Do you think I will require more grafts than that? I thought with between 2800-3500 I could achieve max desired density. I will have some consultations to determine what my actual plan can be. I may have to fly/ go somewhere to have an in person consultation as you did with zarev ( I don’t think I can wait to go to zarev though). 

4000 grafts will definitely help, but still require some sacrifices in the crown for example. 

Consultation with Zarev is expensive, because off-schedule consultations cost 900 euro, but with this price you can get most detailed measurements of your scalp in the world. So for me it was worth it and waiting time wasn't so long, it was like 3 months since i asked about possibility of of-schedule consultation. I am happy that im did it, because now i know where I stand. 

[caveman]

UPDATE:

I had my video call with dr das today. We discussed several questions I had.

1. In depth planning off donor area and recipient area. Create sections to check donor density and sectioning off transplant zone to assure desired density. She did mention that routinely this not practiced as it depends on a per case situation but they are willing to do it for me since I am concerned. She did also mention something about a certain machine that’s used for this but they don’t have that. Not too sure what that is maybe someone can shed light?

2. Graft count and areas of focus. I explained my goals. I had already spoken to dr arika 2 weeks ago so eugenix had a general idea. The previous plan to lower hairline is not out of the question but I have abandoned it. However, if I wanted to, it would be around 1000 grafts. That being said I am still curious what can be done just to soften the corners and we won’t know until I am seen in person. Focus of procedure would be to add density behind hairline into midscalp, reinforce current hairline and add significant density to crown/lateral humps. The calculations provided to me on a previous post is what dr dad also agreed to. However, the total count on that picture is listed as 2000-2500, but really it is 2500-3000 (the final total was added wrong). I am curious if I can get the desired density from 3000 grafts but I do see it as possible. 
 

3. Current density and goal of density

At this point the eugenix rep stepped in and explained they have the details of my current density, etc. and they will send it to me. I’ve asked in the past and haven’t received it. Hopefully I’m able to see where I stand and this was something eugenix actively recorded during my last surgery. For goal of density, I am not sure. Normally the hairline is like 40 graft/cm^2. How much does it decrease as you move into the midscalp and crown? Ideally, I’d like to maintain as close to 40 as I can going back into the midscalp and will be okay with slightly less density in the crown but not way less where it looks depleted. This is something I need to account for. It would be nice to get an answer from eugenix (estimated) explaining what number of grafts I’d need on each section of my head to achieve a good density. I imagine this is possible as I’ve already been there for my first procedure.

4. Doctor involvement

 In my first procedure I had opted for my surgery with dr arika (super premium package) I believe at the time critical implantation was done by the lead surgeon (dr arika). In the current package planning/design, and slits will be created by the main doctor (dr das) and remaining procedure will be completed by senior technicians. 
 

I believe I have covered everything that was discussed. I may have further talks with the team to confirm the plan that was proposed to me will give me full coverage. 

[caveman]

2 hours ago, GeneralNorwood said:

 

Well, that's not the kind of informations that are gathered by Eugenix, because measuring takes time. 

 

200 grafts is like 5cm2 with 40grafts/cm2 density. So imagine area of 10cm x 0,5 cm. So you can lower 10 cm of hairline by 0,5 cm. 

Can you send a photo of straight face (something like my avatar picture) with hairline visible? Photo made from 2 meters at least (not a selfie). 

 

4000 grafts will definitely help, but still require some sacrifices in the crown for example. 

Consultation with Zarev is expensive, because off-schedule consultations cost 900 euro, but with this price you can get most detailed measurements of your scalp in the world. So for me it was worth it and waiting time wasn't so long, it was like 3 months since i asked about possibility of off-schedule consultation. I am happy that im did it, because now i know where I stand. 

@GeneralNorwood so tbh from the front i like where the hairline sits. I’ve got no issues with it really at all. It looks age appropriate and suits my face okay. I did my best to take a picture from a distance which I attached here (picture taken at 6 ft distance).
 

My concern is more from the side profile. I would like to somehow use very very limited grafts to make the side profile a bit less receded. I attached a picture of what I am talking about. I also attached a couple pictures of my growing hair in direct sunlight. This helps wash out the SMP and gives an idea of areas that need work. 
 

I just don’t think going to zarev is in the stars for me. As much as I’d love to, I can neither wait that long nor pay for the price of a procedure with him. It is, however, great advice.

[GeneralNorwood]

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

1. In depth planning off donor area and recipient area. Create sections to check donor density and sectioning off transplant zone to assure desired density. She did mention that routinely this not practiced as it depends on a per case situation but they are willing to do it for me since I am concerned. She did also mention something about a certain machine that’s used for this but they don’t have that. Not too sure what that is maybe someone can shed light?

 

 

Zarev uses microcamera during consultation to check density : https://youtu.be/eX4X8u0Lk64?t=74

 

If you don't have microcamera you can use just piece of paper and cut square 1cmx1cm in it and check how many grafts there are in square when you put it to scalp. 

 

So i don't believe any special machine is needed. 

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

2. Graft count and areas of focus. I explained my goals. I had already spoken to dr arika 2 weeks ago so eugenix had a general idea. The previous plan to lower hairline is not out of the question but I have abandoned it. However, if I wanted to, it would be around 1000 grafts

 

Yeah, that would be a waste of 1000 grafts

 

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

3. Current density and goal of density

At this point the eugenix rep stepped in and explained they have the details of my current density, etc. and they will send it to me. I’ve asked in the past and haven’t received it. Hopefully I’m able to see where I stand and this was something eugenix actively recorded during my last surgery. For goal of density, I am not sure. Normally the hairline is like 40 graft/cm^2. How much does it decrease as you move into the midscalp and crown?

 

In Eugenix they do 40 grafts/cm2 in the first ~2 cm behind hairline, then it decreases to 30+ grafts/cm2

 

1 hour ago, caveman said:

@GeneralNorwood so tbh from the front i like where the hairline sits. I’ve got no issues with it really at all. It looks age appropriate and suits my face okay. I did my best to take a picture from a distance which I attached here (picture taken at 6 ft distance).

 

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry for being pain in the ass, but the angle in this picture isn't the best to see the hairline. Propably camera was lower then your face or you are leaning your face back slightly  

 

1 hour ago, caveman said:

 

I just don’t think going to zarev is in the stars for me. As much as I’d love to, I can neither wait that long nor pay for the price of a procedure with him. It is, however, great advice.

 

 

Yeah, i was only speaking about donor assesment. But you can consult with other doctors too. I can recommend Muresanu. You can have skype consultation with him. 

Edited May 13 by GeneralNorwood

[caveman]

@GeneralNorwood haha ya definitely don’t think it’s wise to use 1000 grafts there. Will still find out if less grafts can be used to adjust corners only. Sorry the picture is not good lol I tried my best but will have to ask someone to take the picture for me when I am able to. 
 

for density, do you believe 40graft/cm^2 is possible throughout the scalp? What density do you have for your hair? It looks quite a bit more dense than mine. 
 

I will look into a consult with muresanu. Skype would be ideal as I cannot travel just for a consultation at this current point. Thanks for the recommendation. 

[GeneralNorwood]

16 minutes ago, caveman said:

 

for density, do you believe 40graft/cm^2 is possible throughout the scalp? What density do you have for your hair? It looks quite a bit more dense than mine. 

 

If total recipient area is between 275-300 cm2, you need 11000- 12000 grafts with 40 graft/cm2 density. 

 

My hair look more dense, because i have propably more native hair then you and i have blond  hair. Zarev calculated that in some regions my native hair has even 40grafts/cm2 density, but this hair are heavily miniaturised, very thin and short. 

 

40 grafts of this miniaturised hair are maybe like 15-20 healthy grafts in terms of density, if we even try to compare it... 

 

 

[Berba11]

4 hours ago, caveman said:

@GeneralNorwood so tbh from the front i like where the hairline sits. I’ve got no issues with it really at all. It looks age appropriate and suits my face okay. I did my best to take a picture from a distance which I attached here (picture taken at 6 ft distance).
 

My concern is more from the side profile. I would like to somehow use very very limited grafts to make the side profile a bit less receded. I attached a picture of what I am talking about. I also attached a couple pictures of my growing hair in direct sunlight. This helps wash out the SMP and gives an idea of areas that need work. 
 

I just don’t think going to zarev is in the stars for me. As much as I’d love to, I can neither wait that long nor pay for the price of a procedure with him. It is, however, great advice.

Just wanted to say that from that frontal picture, your face is framed incredibly well. The hairline and temple points look top notch and the SMP allows you to rock a nice buzzcut. 
 

100% don’t touch the hairline or temple points. Soften the sharp V-shaped recession points just the tiniest bit if you really want to (I did this myself, though the difference is very minimal), but don’t add more grafts the the whole temple point. Really no need at all. 
 

And any of your friend or family that have expressed less flattering sentiments honestly don’t know what they’re talking about. 
 

You’re looking great, dude!

[caveman]

@GeneralNorwood I’m gonna try and measure my scalp and see if I can get a rough estimate of surface area I need to cover. There’s a couple YouTube tutorials about it 

[caveman]

@Berba11 thanks for the kind words. I’m glad that it’s looking pretty solid. After further consideration I have definitely dropped the idea of hairline lowering and will do like you have said regarding the recession points (only if I have enough grafts). 
 

when you softened your v shaped points, did you feel a bit more comfortable with combed back hairstyles that show your forehead? 
 

i will say this about my friends and family, overall their impression of the current hairline shape is very positive. No one has mentioned to lower it or anything like that. It’s just on a side profile that I’m getting feedback to soften the corners. My main critic is my dad 😂 and he’s 64 and blessed with minimal baldness. he’s probably like a NW3 right now. He doesn’t care much about aesthetics and was against me getting the transplant in the first place. His argument is if you’re gonna do it anyways atleast round off those corners a bit haha. I think he means well though 

[caveman]

@Berba11 Do you have a post with your journey? I’ve been trying to look but having a hard time finding it if there is one

[Berba11]

6 hours ago, caveman said:

when you softened your v shaped points, did you feel a bit more comfortable with combed back hairstyles that show your forehead? 

I can’t say it made all that much difference to be honest!

If you click my name, click on ‘activity’ and then ‘topics’, you should be able to find it. I’ve only ever created one topic on here and it’s that one!

[Bandit90]

How’s tricks Jay! Your combo of transplanted hair and SMP is looking killer mate – 100% are rocking it. TBF your current design with recession looks both solid and natural, and agree with other posters that hairline lowering should not be the priority. That said, on my last sitting I used ∼350 grafts to tweak my frontotemporal angle, which I think does give a lot of bang for the buck. I 100% agree with others that the density in the mid-scalp and crown should be your focus, then if you want to reduce the frontotemporal angle, you can make an informed decision to do so (maybe even as a 3^rd sitting). It’s a good dilemma you are in mate, because you did the sensible thing by starting conservative. You're doing the right thing and asking the right questions, ultimately it will be your call so just make sure you are armed with the facts to make an informed decision.

[Stewie]

Got to say I agree with everyone on the hairline front, and in hindsight if it had my time again I would not of let the first place I went, to make my hairline as wide as it is, as when I see some of the best results for high NW, its when they have it pulled in a bit like yours, even if it only takes 500 grafts to adjust would it be worth it? I suppose it will come down to whats more important to you, but I do think density in the right places should be that priority for sure.

And I have to agree, the front and side shots look great at framing your face and really natural  

[SLA]

I have to say that I had the priviledge of meeting @cavemanin person and his results looked great and hairline looked perfect.

Even the density when grown out looked solid. I could see why he might want more, but overall he looked fantastic.

[caveman]

18 hours ago, Bandit90 said:

How’s tricks Jay! Your combo of transplanted hair and SMP is looking killer mate – 100% are rocking it. TBF your current design with recession looks both solid and natural, and agree with other posters that hairline lowering should not be the priority. That said, on my last sitting I used ∼350 grafts to tweak my frontotemporal angle, which I think does give a lot of bang for the buck. I 100% agree with others that the density in the mid-scalp and crown should be your focus, then if you want to reduce the frontotemporal angle, you can make an informed decision to do so (maybe even as a 3^rd sitting). It’s a good dilemma you are in mate, because you did the sensible thing by starting conservative. You're doing the right thing and asking the right questions, ultimately it will be your call so just make sure you are armed with the facts to make an informed decision.

@Bandit90 my man! I’ve been good hope all is well with you. Yeah lol basically the whole forum has deterred me from planning anything crazy in the front and rightly so. I’ve kinda dropped the idea for now, however if I could do something similar to what you did in less than 500 grafts, I’ll consider it.

Appreciate the compliment on the SMP look. It definitely looks nice and I can rock it for now but def need some more hair. It was a good plan to buy me like 6 months of time and now I’ve got a good foundation going into round 2.

yes, I definitely made a great decision being conservative and thanks to members of the forum like yourself. I’ve placed myself into a position where I can take several routes. Will keep researching and thinking the plan over 

[caveman]

Hey @Stewie. Thanks for the feedback brother. I saw your journey and I’ll definitely take your suggestion into account. Seems everyone is on the same page about current hairline and temple points. With that said, I’m thinking I’ll most likely keep things the same. Only if I can make a small physical change that results in a large aesthetic improvement, will I go for it.

also I could do what @Bandit90said. Always time to go for round 3 if I want to make that change in the future. 
 

appreciate you dropping by.

[caveman]

6 hours ago, SLA said:

I have to say that I had the priviledge of meeting @cavemanin person and his results looked great and hairline looked perfect.

Even the density when grown out looked solid. I could see why he might want more, but overall he looked fantastic.

Ayyyy my favorite person. @SLA as always appreciate you buddy. I’ll actually post a fully grown out  video if I can find it and if this site allows videos haha. You are definitely right that it is possible to make my current hair look decently. Especially with toppik in, you can’t even tell I’ve had hair loss at all. Without the toppik it varies day to day. Somedays it looks okay and other days I couldn’t stand it 😂. I think the reason I felt like that was cause of lack of density in certain areas but if I can get the density up in the second sitting, I’ll be able to have a nice thick head of hair 🤞🏽 

[Melvin- Admin]

You’ve come a long way. 

Great results. I can understand why you would want to lessen the temporal points. I guess it depends on whether it bothers you enough.

[caveman]

32 minutes ago, Melvin- Admin said:

You’ve come a long way. 

Great results. I can understand why you would want to lessen the temporal points. I guess it depends on whether it bothers you enough.

Appreciate that @Melvin- Admin. We are just getting started 😉.
 

And you’re right. I guess if it bothers me enough I’ll decide to change it a bit. I feel like the 350ish grafts @Bandit90 used went a long way for his result. I may go for something like that if possible.

[sekiro109]

On 5/13/2024 at 11:01 AM, GeneralNorwood said:

Consultation with Zarev is expensive, because off-schedule consultations cost 900 euro, but with this price you can get most detailed measurements of your scalp in the world. So for me it was worth it and waiting time wasn't so long, it was like 3 months since i asked about possibility of of-schedule consultation. I am happy that im did it, because now i know where I stand. 

what's the waiting list like for Dr. Zarev? Do you really have to wait several years?

 

@caveman and agree with others here, the SMP + buzz cut actually looks good. I can't even tell you had SMP in the pictures. Can you go into a bit of detail how the process was? Did you have to completely shave your head to get the SMP done? 

[Rawkerboi]

1 hour ago, sekiro109 said:

what's the waiting list like for Dr. Zarev? Do you really have to wait several years?

3 years to get a consultation. Then another 2 years to surgery.

[GeneralNorwood]

13 hours ago, sekiro109 said:

what's the waiting list like for Dr. Zarev? Do you really have to wait several years?

 

 

12 hours ago, Rawkerboi said:

3 years to get a consultation. Then another 2 years to surgery.

 

Standard consultations are closed.

Consultations for 900 euro are open and you have to wait few months to get one. Then they schedule your surgery in 3 years. They can sign you on cancellation list, but nothing is promised. 

Edited Monday at 07:27 PM by GeneralNorwood

[sekiro109]

5 hours ago, GeneralNorwood said:

Consultations for 900 euro are open and you have to wait few months to get one. Then they schedule your surgery in 3 years. They can sign you on cancellation list, but nothing is promised. 

damn, 3 years is too much