A dark side of SMP?

[Dayne]

About a month ago I made the decision to go through with a SMP. I had found a reputable clinic and a very skilled and experienced smp-artist and actually went as far as to book an appointment. Days later I saw a video on youtube about SMP and most comments to the video were favorable, but there were also a couple of comments that made me start revaluating my decision. It's funny considering I'd seen a load of videos in my research and never heard of the issue I'm about to mention.

There seem to be some minor issues with having a SMP done, but most of those issues are rather trivial and can be avoided if you have your SMP done by someone experienced. However, there seem to be one issue not so easily disregarded and I'm asking if this issue is legitimate:

The SMP will probably look good the first few years but with time the tiny dots will start to fade, lose their distinction and may resemble a light-grey smudge (dots "dissolving" and migrating togheter to produce blurry clusters). The dots will not fade completely, since it's permanent ink, so the indistinct dots will still linger many, many years after the SMP. When doing a touch-up the old dots may be hard to see and make it a daunting task to correctly apply the new dots over the old ones. This may in the future, after multiple touch-ups, leave a grey smudged, helmet-like, painted look.

It's hard to verify this assumed side-effect since most of the pictures of done works are immediately after a SMP has been finished. Few seem to share their touch-up-journeys. Is it all about the skill of the artist or is this side-effect not so easily avoided?

[Gatsby]

It's entirely about the skill of the artist but equally important it's also about the knowledge of the artist. Google Caitlin James. She performed my SMP nearly 5 years ago and I don't look like a band member from Devo. You see she has won a swag of international and national awards for her work and annually attends international conferences. Who is the company or person performing the SMP your talking about?

[Dayne]

Great to hear about your positive experience!

I’m not referring to any particular SMP artist or clinic. This was also not mentioned in the video I mentioned, but rather in the comments.

In addition, there’s also a SMP-rival company bringing the issue in question to light (they can be considered biased, but the questions may be valid regardless): 

http://www.smpclinics.com/the-hair-tattoo/

[kirkland]

While the innovation of SMP has been a great addition to the menu of choices for hairloss sufferers, it does not come without its own risks. @Dayneyou have touched upon one significant risk - the 'bluriness' of the treatment itself over time. As the pigment breaks down in the epidermis, it migrates at the edges and blends into a series of shadows over time, losing its effectiveness at producing an illusion of distinct follicles on the scalp. You can't stop the body from doing its job but I will leave it to @EnhancedScalp and other SMP artists/users to advise on how best to avoid such a development over time.

However, SMP does come with other risks so if you are interested in the procedure, please be aware of all of them. Choosing the right tech/artist, the right pigments and understanding if the maintenance required for maintaining the 'illusion' is aligned with your own lifestyle is critical to success. 

@Gatsbyhas had a positive experience with SMP. My own SMP treatment left a semi-permanent erythema on my scalp which (fortunately for me) pushed me towards a hair transplant sooner than I had anticipated. And my SMP artist was experienced and used all the right tools. My skin is prone to redness and that seems to be part of why my treatment failed.

[ciaus]

 

1 hour ago, kirkland said:

My own SMP treatment left a semi-permanent erythema on my scalp which (fortunately for me) pushed me towards a hair transplant sooner than I had anticipated. And my SMP artist was experienced and used all the right tools. My skin is prone to redness and that seems to be part of why my treatment failed.

 

@kirkland I appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge about SMP, but I've noticed when you mention your lingering redness you often leave out that your scalp area was sunburned when you got your SMP. I think that's an important factor to mention every time you talk about your erythema. I just did a forum search and found your post from late last year where you mentioned it for reference.

 

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Posted November 25, 2020

There was one mitigating factor that likely contributed to my outcome: sunburn. When I went for the treatment, I had a sunburned scalp after just having come from vacation. It was ill-advised for me to have the treatment in that condition and it most likely led to the trauma from the treatment. Make sure you don't make the same mistake I did and you should be fine but please make sure that the tech/clinic/tools are all above board

 

 

[ciaus]

2 hours ago, Dayne said:

I’m not referring to any particular SMP artist or clinic. This was also not mentioned in the video I mentioned, but rather in the comments.

In addition, there’s also a SMP-rival company bringing the issue in question to light (they can be considered biased, but the questions may be valid regardless): 

http://www.smpclinics.com/the-hair-tattoo/

Nice little ad there from people using Milena Lardi Beauty Medical ink there. lol They paint a pretty bleak picture of the world outside of them. But even people who have had their procedures done using that have complained about it not fading, etc. Milena herself used to post here. 

The pigment breakdown rates are unique based on each patient. And for the permanent touchups my understanding is they re-apply the ink on top of the existing dots to replace the ink your body has expelled.

[kirkland]

21 minutes ago, ciaus said:

 

 

@kirkland I appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge about SMP, but I've noticed when you mention your lingering redness you often leave out that your scalp area was sunburned when you got your SMP. I think that's an important factor to mention every time you talk about your erythema. I just did a forum search and found your post from late last year where you mentioned it for reference.

 

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Posted November 25, 2020

There was one mitigating factor that likely contributed to my outcome: sunburn. When I went for the treatment, I had a sunburned scalp after just having come from vacation. It was ill-advised for me to have the treatment in that condition and it most likely led to the trauma from the treatment. Make sure you don't make the same mistake I did and you should be fine but please make sure that the tech/clinic/tools are all above board

 

 

Yes - you are correct that it is an important piece of info when sharing my SMP experience but you should be aware that semi-permanent erythema can occur from SMP even without a pre-existing condition, like a sunburn. Over the last few years, I have been contacted by two other individuals who had SMP and developed a lasting redness from the treatment. They did not experience sunburn prior to the SMP - the only other similar factor with me was that they were also fair-skinned and prone to redness. 

So when I mention the risks of SMP more broadly speaking, I am not misrepresenting the risk itself due to my own experiences. 

 

[kirkland]

Here are my convos with one of those individuals on reddit (or at least their responses). I was also in conversation with another person on r/SMP about their experiences with lasting erythema from the treatment. 

I'm not at all against SMP. It is an effective treatment but it does carry risks, even if some of those risks are not likely to impact most people. I have avoided referencing the clinic I went to because I do not blame them for the outcome. I went into the treatment with a sunburn on my scalp, the practitioner shared their concerns with me about my condition, I proceeded nonetheless and I bear all responsibility for what happened. I was surprised to hear about a similar reaction from two other people who did not have a sunburn when they did do SMP but did experience lasting redness. It can happen.

[ciaus]

26 minutes ago, kirkland said:

Yes - you are correct that it is an important piece of info when sharing my SMP experience but you should be aware that semi-permanent erythema can occur from SMP even without a pre-existing condition, like a sunburn. Over the last few years, I have been contacted by two other individuals who had SMP and developed a lasting redness from the treatment. They did not experience sunburn prior to the SMP - the only other similar factor with me was that they were also fair-skinned and prone to redness. 

So when I mention the risks of SMP more broadly speaking, I am not misrepresenting the risk itself due to my own experiences. 

 

That's cool to generally speak about the possibility of it, but since it is pretty rare that it happens, when a particular case is mentioned, like when you say you experienced it, I think its important to also give any known potentially mitigating factors that came along with the particular case being mentioned.

[kirkland]

Yes I agree. I have been up front that there are mitigating factors with SMP just like with all other interventions that can cause local trauma. I never dissuade anyone from seeking out the treatment. I just encourage them to understand that there is always a risk involved, even if that risk is minimal.

[EnhancedScalp]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:13 AM, ciaus said:

 

 

@kirkland I appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge about SMP, but I've noticed when you mention your lingering redness you often leave out that your scalp area was sunburned when you got your SMP. I think that's an important factor to mention every time you talk about your erythema. I just did a forum search and found your post from late last year where you mentioned it for reference.

 

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Posted November 25, 2020

There was one mitigating factor that likely contributed to my outcome: sunburn. When I went for the treatment, I had a sunburned scalp after just having come from vacation. It was ill-advised for me to have the treatment in that condition and it most likely led to the trauma from the treatment. Make sure you don't make the same mistake I did and you should be fine but please make sure that the tech/clinic/tools are all above board

Edited November 13, 2021 by EnhancedScalp
Delete

[EnhancedScalp]

23 hours ago, kirkland said:

Here are my convos with one of those individuals on reddit (or at least their responses). I was also in conversation with another person on r/SMP about their experiences with lasting erythema from the treatment. 

I'm not at all against SMP. It is an effective treatment but it does carry risks, even if some of those risks are not likely to impact most people. I have avoided referencing the clinic I went to because I do not blame them for the outcome. I went into the treatment with a sunburn on my scalp, the practitioner shared their concerns with me about my condition, I proceeded nonetheless and I bear all responsibility for what happened. I was surprised to hear about a similar reaction from two other people who did not have a sunburn when they did do SMP but did experience lasting redness. It can happen.

This is on them actually. I turn ppl away who don't follow pre care instructions. Sunburn? Come back when it's gone. It's simple. 

[kirkland]

13 minutes ago, EnhancedScalp said:

This is on them actually. I turn ppl away who don't follow pre care instructions. Sunburn? Come back when it's gone. It's simple. 

Yes - that is the best practice.

[Dayne]

As I understand it taken into account the answers delievered, it all comes down to the following:

• Finding a SMP-practicioner with experience and skill. This will mitigate the risk of having the dots changing colour due to inappropriate choice of ink, too large dots, dots too close to each other, uneven distribution of dots etc.
• Being sensible in your choice of look and not go for a too dense pattern, or any unnatural hairlines.
• Hope your immune system won't stir up a ruckus over the years paving the way for your scalp to develop into something reminiscent of that of a swimming cap.

So it's quite a gamble.

[ciaus]

1 hour ago, Dayne said:

So it's quite a gamble.

 

Like cutting up the back of your head to extract hairs and implant them to other parts of your head, etc. Any major cosmetic change to improve your appearance is going to involve risk and be a gamble to some degree. Nobody can guarantee results, and if they say they can ask them to put it in legally-binding writing and watch how quickly they change their tune.

[EnhancedScalp]

On 11/13/2021 at 12:01 PM, Dayne said:

As I understand it taken into account the answers delievered, it all comes down to the following:

• Finding a SMP-practicioner with experience and skill. This will mitigate the risk of having the dots changing colour due to inappropriate choice of ink, too large dots, dots too close to each other, uneven distribution of dots etc.
• Being sensible in your choice of look and not go for a too dense pattern, or any unnatural hairlines.
• Hope your immune system won't stir up a ruckus over the years paving the way for your scalp to develop into something reminiscent of that of a swimming cap.

So it's quite a gamble.

SMP results are guaranteed night and day versus transplants (going to the right artist that is). 90% of transplant clients have no business getting them.

That's my personal opinion.

[ciaus]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:31 PM, EnhancedScalp said:

SMP results are guaranteed night and day versus transplants (going to the right artist that is). 90% of transplant clients have no business getting them.

That's my personal opinion.

 

In my research I can remember coming across some forum posts about guys getting SMP and reporting that it fading really quickly, like almost disappearing within months. Actually true or not who can say. And some of that may have been with the more temporary tricho ink. In your experience and talking with other artists how common is this? Have you had any customers, or know of fellow artists that have customers, where their body breaks down the permanent-type ink so fast that they had to give up on SMP? 

[EnhancedScalp]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:39 PM, ciaus said:

 

In my research I can remember coming across some forum posts about guys getting SMP and reporting that it fading really quickly, like almost disappearing within months. Actually true or not who can say. And some of that may have been with the more temporary tricho ink. In your experience and talking with other artists how common is this? Have you had any customers, or know of fellow artists that have customers, where their body breaks down the permanent-type ink so fast that they had to give up on SMP? 

A first session sometimes fades significantly, as were typically using a lighter shade in a first session to see how the shade retains/looks.  But completed smp jobs don't really fade too quickly if done correctly.  I've never heard of that or experienced that personally.

[xtatic5]

Is this the kind of faded, "smudgy", and indistinct SMP that you're talking about...? (please excuse the hair)

I just got this done in October and it has looked this way since the scabs came off in week 1.  It's been really bothering me and I don't think its a good result after seeing others.  I should note that this was a density fill procedure which aims to cover more surface area than traditional SMP.

Edited December 22, 2021 by xtatic5

[ciaus]

1 hour ago, xtatic5 said:

Is this the kind of faded, "smudgy", and indistinct SMP that you're talking about...? (please excuse the hair)

I just got this done in October and it has looked this way since the scabs came off in week 1.  It's been really bothering me and I don't think its a good result after seeing others.  I should note that this was a density fill procedure which aims to cover more surface area than traditional SMP.

 

October was less than 12 weeks ago, this is way too short of a time to look that faded if it was done by an experienced professional SMP artist. Would you mind sharing where you went to have this done?

And how many total sessions did you have? When you say the scabs came off in week one, you should have had at least two or three "week one"s. Unlike a hair transplant, with SMP you have at least two sessions, usually separated by 7 to 10 days so that your skin can heal, scabs shed, where the SMP artist determines how well your skin is retaining the ink. Some guys need 3 or more sessions, just depends on their unique skin and physiology. 

 

[xtatic5]

12 minutes ago, ciaus said:

 

October was less than 12 weeks ago, this is way too short of a time to look that faded if it was done by an experienced professional SMP artist. Would you mind sharing where you went to have this done?

And how many total sessions did you have? When you say the scabs came off in week one, you should have had at least two or three "week one"s. Unlike a hair transplant, with SMP you have at least two sessions, usually separated by 7 to 10 days so that your skin can heal, scabs shed, where the SMP artist determines how well your skin is retaining the ink. Some guys need 3 or more sessions, just depends on their unique skin and physiology. 

 

This procedure was performed by Chris Herrera of Scalp Micropigmentation in Maryland, USA.  This was performed in one, 3-hour session with a check-up 30 days after.  I raised my concerns with him during the check-up and he defended his work.  He said that adding more ink would make it too dark and suggested that I grow my hair long for the best result. 

In addition to looking faded I'm not sure why the "dots" are mis-shapened, is this normal for a density fill?

[ciaus]

1 hour ago, xtatic5 said:

This procedure was performed by Chris Herrera of Scalp Micropigmentation in Maryland, USA.  This was performed in one, 3-hour session with a check-up 30 days after.  I raised my concerns with him during the check-up and he defended his work.  He said that adding more ink would make it too dark and suggested that I grow my hair long for the best result. 

In addition to looking faded I'm not sure why the "dots" are mis-shapened, is this normal for a density fill?

 

I'm looping in some SMP artists, @hairthere and @EnhancedScalp that are members here on the forum to review your details and pics.

[EvoXOhio]

I replied in the other thread but will here too. 

The dots don’t look like dots, they look like dull smudges beneath the surface. Almost like when tattoo ink is really blown out or after partial laser removal. I’ve never seen SMP look like this. 
 

im also confused why you have essentially two hairlines. Is the lower hairline from the HT and it was a very poor yield? 
 

the good news is you can get this lasered off it will be like it never happened, save for the money it cost you. 

[EvoXOhio]

39 minutes ago, EvoXOhio said:

I replied in the other thread but will here too. 

The dots don’t look like dots, they look like dull smudges beneath the surface. Almost like when tattoo ink is really blown out or after partial laser removal. I’ve never seen SMP look like this. 
 

im also confused why you have essentially two hairlines. Is the lower hairline from the HT and it was a very poor yield? 
 

the good news is you can get this lasered off it will be like it never happened, save for the money it cost you. 

I need to retract part of my statement. When I look in the mirror at my SMP, even up close, I see nice pronounced dots that match the color and tone of my hair. However when I try to take a picture of them, they look similar to yours. I’m thinking maybe the light shining down and reflecting off the scalp is what’s causing them to look dull and misshapen. If I try to take pictures without direct overhead light you can’t even see the dots as it just looks like hair. So it’s really hard to photograph, at least for me. 
 

I do still stand by my concern regarding the hairline though. 

[SimpleLife]

@Dayne What is your final conclusion?

Will you do it?