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Minoxidil & Dermapen - best way to do this?


Hairtroubles

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Hey, I recently splashed out on a derma-pen, needle cartridges, and Minoxidil 6 months supply foam from Minoxidilmax.  I am terrified of Fin, and I guess the whole process of Fin and what it does to the body and what I see when I read things about it, terrifies me.  I also think even if I took it now (I want to), that maybe I would psych myself out, with a nocebo effect?  Anyways, just was wondering:

1.  With the dermapen and minoxidil, what works for you, what length and how long at a time, and most of all how many times per week? I see different people say once a week, once every 2 weeks, and some that say once a month.

2. Do you think it's best to apply minoxidil foam at night or start of the day, do you wash it off, leave it in?  There isn't too much information about this, what shampoo do you use as well?

3.  Weird question, but I also saw a dermapen is good for the face, I bought alcohol wipes and was wondering, if I dermapen my hair, can I then move on to do my face with the same needles? Would that be any issue? Should I wash in between?

I am completely new to this so any information you have would greatly help me, thank you!

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I know @CosmoKramerused the pen at some point. I don’t know id if it’s necessary though. A dermaroller works fine. 


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7 hours ago, Hairtroubles said:

Hey, I recently splashed out on a derma-pen, needle cartridges, and Minoxidil 6 months supply foam from Minoxidilmax.  I am terrified of Fin, and I guess the whole process of Fin and what it does to the body and what I see when I read things about it, terrifies me.  I also think even if I took it now (I want to), that maybe I would psych myself out, with a nocebo effect?  Anyways, just was wondering:

1.  With the dermapen and minoxidil, what works for you, what length and how long at a time, and most of all how many times per week? I see different people say once a week, once every 2 weeks, and some that say once a month.

2. Do you think it's best to apply minoxidil foam at night or start of the day, do you wash it off, leave it in?  There isn't too much information about this, what shampoo do you use as well?

3.  Weird question, but I also saw a dermapen is good for the face, I bought alcohol wipes and was wondering, if I dermapen my hair, can I then move on to do my face with the same needles? Would that be any issue? Should I wash in between?

I am completely new to this so any information you have would greatly help me, thank you!

Good for you :) 

1. Minoxidil definitely once/day. Twice/day shouldn't provide extra benefit based on my pharmacological understanding of it, other than that you would be using a greater dose (2ml instead of 1ml), and conformance becomes an issue in the long run. For the top of the scalp I use a liberal amount, probably around 2ml if not more. 
Dermapen I own after doing all the research with the intention of using, but due to having a transplant, I cannot use it until around 12 months post. Dermapen is stimulus-adaptation dependent, like training is for the body. You train to create a "stimulus", you let the body repair which creates the "adaptation", and then you are ready to present a new stimulus again. We don't know for sure, but up to 1,5mm needles penetrate deeply enough to create a strong stimulus, create redness in the area (and therefore bloodflow), but recovery is individual and therefore people talk about once per week. If you used 0,5mm needles or a dermaroller, then you could use it potentially daily. I was going to start with 1mm a little less than once a week and assess the redness etc before going to 1,5mm once per week. Some people use smaller needles (0,5mm) as a pre-stimulus before applying minoxidil to aid absorption. I wouldn't personally use smaller needles because they aren't doing much if anything, and with larger needles where microtrauma is actually occuring, this is going to assist in making minoxidil go systemic which is not necessarily what we want. 

2. I use it before going to bed since it is by far the most convenient in my opinion. Once it is dry, I towel off some from the hair to reduce how much goes on your pillow. You don't really want it on your face because I have experienced negative skin changes when I did not take precautions with this. It is a good idea not to wash it off for at least a few hours. I believe after 10 or 12 hours it is 95% absorbed. In the morning when I always have a shower, then i can wash my hair like normal and not have any greasy minoxidil on my head. Others use it to style their hair, but that's not for me. 
I just replied to someone about shampoo: 
https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/59706-how-bad-is-the-hair-density-at-my-scalp-im-only-22/?tab=comments#comment-584646

3. Sure, just start out easy with needle size and frequency. It is obviously best for scar breakdown and skin uniformity, so I would only use it on my face if there was something to gain, like improving old acne scars. My girlfriend has wanted me to try it on her stretch marks, and with 1,5mm needle she is red for days. I am very fascinated to see how well it works. On her face we tried 1mm. This wasn't "red" but she said it was warm for a day or two. It's your blood, no harm going from one place to another. 

 

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14 hours ago, j1mmy said:

Good for you :) 

1. Minoxidil definitely once/day. Twice/day shouldn't provide extra benefit based on my pharmacological understanding of it, other than that you would be using a greater dose (2ml instead of 1ml), and conformance becomes an issue in the long run. For the top of the scalp I use a liberal amount, probably around 2ml if not more. 
Dermapen I own after doing all the research with the intention of using, but due to having a transplant, I cannot use it until around 12 months post. Dermapen is stimulus-adaptation dependent, like training is for the body. You train to create a "stimulus", you let the body repair which creates the "adaptation", and then you are ready to present a new stimulus again. We don't know for sure, but up to 1,5mm needles penetrate deeply enough to create a strong stimulus, create redness in the area (and therefore bloodflow), but recovery is individual and therefore people talk about once per week. If you used 0,5mm needles or a dermaroller, then you could use it potentially daily. I was going to start with 1mm a little less than once a week and assess the redness etc before going to 1,5mm once per week. Some people use smaller needles (0,5mm) as a pre-stimulus before applying minoxidil to aid absorption. I wouldn't personally use smaller needles because they aren't doing much if anything, and with larger needles where microtrauma is actually occuring, this is going to assist in making minoxidil go systemic which is not necessarily what we want. 

2. I use it before going to bed since it is by far the most convenient in my opinion. Once it is dry, I towel off some from the hair to reduce how much goes on your pillow. You don't really want it on your face because I have experienced negative skin changes when I did not take precautions with this. It is a good idea not to wash it off for at least a few hours. I believe after 10 or 12 hours it is 95% absorbed. In the morning when I always have a shower, then i can wash my hair like normal and not have any greasy minoxidil on my head. Others use it to style their hair, but that's not for me. 
I just replied to someone about shampoo: 
https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/59706-how-bad-is-the-hair-density-at-my-scalp-im-only-22/?tab=comments#comment-584646

3. Sure, just start out easy with needle size and frequency. It is obviously best for scar breakdown and skin uniformity, so I would only use it on my face if there was something to gain, like improving old acne scars. My girlfriend has wanted me to try it on her stretch marks, and with 1,5mm needle she is red for days. I am very fascinated to see how well it works. On her face we tried 1mm. This wasn't "red" but she said it was warm for a day or two. It's your blood, no harm going from one place to another. 

 

Hey mate, I am making a doc and including everything you say.  Thanks man.

1.  What is conformance in regards to Min?  I guess I will just use that once a day.  Are there any side effects from Min, or I shouldn't worry about that?

2.  I will do 1.5mm every 10 days. Do I need to put Hyularonic Acid on the scalp, or is that just for the face?  Can you please link a decent shampoo you think I can order (I know I asked this elsewhere).

3. So how do infections start, is it different areas or what? So confusing, so hair and then face should be fine.

4. What if I get side effects from Fin, do i stop immediately or lower dose. 

5. Any advice for when i start fin? To not psyche myself out? When to take it or how to take it.

 

 

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15 hours ago, j1mmy said:

Good for you :) 

1. Minoxidil definitely once/day. Twice/day shouldn't provide extra benefit based on my pharmacological understanding of it, other than that you would be using a greater dose (2ml instead of 1ml), and conformance becomes an issue in the long run. For the top of the scalp I use a liberal amount, probably around 2ml if not more. 
Dermapen I own after doing all the research with the intention of using, but due to having a transplant, I cannot use it until around 12 months post. Dermapen is stimulus-adaptation dependent, like training is for the body. You train to create a "stimulus", you let the body repair which creates the "adaptation", and then you are ready to present a new stimulus again. We don't know for sure, but up to 1,5mm needles penetrate deeply enough to create a strong stimulus, create redness in the area (and therefore bloodflow), but recovery is individual and therefore people talk about once per week. If you used 0,5mm needles or a dermaroller, then you could use it potentially daily. I was going to start with 1mm a little less than once a week and assess the redness etc before going to 1,5mm once per week. Some people use smaller needles (0,5mm) as a pre-stimulus before applying minoxidil to aid absorption. I wouldn't personally use smaller needles because they aren't doing much if anything, and with larger needles where microtrauma is actually occuring, this is going to assist in making minoxidil go systemic which is not necessarily what we want. 

2. I use it before going to bed since it is by far the most convenient in my opinion. Once it is dry, I towel off some from the hair to reduce how much goes on your pillow. You don't really want it on your face because I have experienced negative skin changes when I did not take precautions with this. It is a good idea not to wash it off for at least a few hours. I believe after 10 or 12 hours it is 95% absorbed. In the morning when I always have a shower, then i can wash my hair like normal and not have any greasy minoxidil on my head. Others use it to style their hair, but that's not for me. 
I just replied to someone about shampoo: 
https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/59706-how-bad-is-the-hair-density-at-my-scalp-im-only-22/?tab=comments#comment-584646

3. Sure, just start out easy with needle size and frequency. It is obviously best for scar breakdown and skin uniformity, so I would only use it on my face if there was something to gain, like improving old acne scars. My girlfriend has wanted me to try it on her stretch marks, and with 1,5mm needle she is red for days. I am very fascinated to see how well it works. On her face we tried 1mm. This wasn't "red" but she said it was warm for a day or two. It's your blood, no harm going from one place to another. 

 

Also Jimmy, read this, this i why I get terrified man:  https://www.vice.com/en/article/43bm3m/i-need-to-quit-hair-loss-drugs-before-they-kill-me

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15 hours ago, j1mmy said:

Good for you :) 

1. Minoxidil definitely once/day. Twice/day shouldn't provide extra benefit based on my pharmacological understanding of it, other than that you would be using a greater dose (2ml instead of 1ml), and conformance becomes an issue in the long run. For the top of the scalp I use a liberal amount, probably around 2ml if not more. 
Dermapen I own after doing all the research with the intention of using, but due to having a transplant, I cannot use it until around 12 months post. Dermapen is stimulus-adaptation dependent, like training is for the body. You train to create a "stimulus", you let the body repair which creates the "adaptation", and then you are ready to present a new stimulus again. We don't know for sure, but up to 1,5mm needles penetrate deeply enough to create a strong stimulus, create redness in the area (and therefore bloodflow), but recovery is individual and therefore people talk about once per week. If you used 0,5mm needles or a dermaroller, then you could use it potentially daily. I was going to start with 1mm a little less than once a week and assess the redness etc before going to 1,5mm once per week. Some people use smaller needles (0,5mm) as a pre-stimulus before applying minoxidil to aid absorption. I wouldn't personally use smaller needles because they aren't doing much if anything, and with larger needles where microtrauma is actually occuring, this is going to assist in making minoxidil go systemic which is not necessarily what we want. 

2. I use it before going to bed since it is by far the most convenient in my opinion. Once it is dry, I towel off some from the hair to reduce how much goes on your pillow. You don't really want it on your face because I have experienced negative skin changes when I did not take precautions with this. It is a good idea not to wash it off for at least a few hours. I believe after 10 or 12 hours it is 95% absorbed. In the morning when I always have a shower, then i can wash my hair like normal and not have any greasy minoxidil on my head. Others use it to style their hair, but that's not for me. 
I just replied to someone about shampoo: 
https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/59706-how-bad-is-the-hair-density-at-my-scalp-im-only-22/?tab=comments#comment-584646

3. Sure, just start out easy with needle size and frequency. It is obviously best for scar breakdown and skin uniformity, so I would only use it on my face if there was something to gain, like improving old acne scars. My girlfriend has wanted me to try it on her stretch marks, and with 1,5mm needle she is red for days. I am very fascinated to see how well it works. On her face we tried 1mm. This wasn't "red" but she said it was warm for a day or two. It's your blood, no harm going from one place to another. 

 

And Lastly Jimmy, something super important I wanted to share with you.  And maybe this could change your way of me thinking, or maybe it's not a big deal, but I did read that Fin isn't good for people to take with a history of depression?

 I also do think that one bad chemical reaction internally can lead to a domino effect, heres something that I wanted to say, for an example. I don't know if I did or not, but I suffered with depression a while back, was on anti-depressants for around a year or two. I read that you can't take Fin whilst being on them or if you took them in the past and then take Fin, it messes it up and screws you around, is this true, if so then maybe I shouldn't take it?  Is this something that is serious?

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this if you know more about this.

 

 

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These doctors don't recommend going too deep while derma rolling. 

I would also not recommend putting anything on the area where you use a derma roller/ derma pen for 24 hours after. 

@Melvin-Moderator

 

I disagree about the derma roller vs derma pen. I think the derma pen is a lot more useful and less damaging to the skin and hair follicles. If you look at the image below the derma roller creates larger pits in the skin that take longer to heal and may create larger area of impact and would damage the hair/hair follicle. Derma Pen creates many more smaller holes which heal a lot faster and have a smaller impact on the hair follicles. (This is my opinion developed from watching derma pen videos from doctors). An example of what I mean can be seen below. 

 

maxresdefault.jpg

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8 hours ago, Hairtroubles said:

Hey mate, I am making a doc and including everything you say.  Thanks man.

1.  What is conformance in regards to Min?  I guess I will just use that once a day.  Are there any side effects from Min, or I shouldn't worry about that?

2.  I will do 1.5mm every 10 days. Do I need to put Hyularonic Acid on the scalp, or is that just for the face?  Can you please link a decent shampoo you think I can order (I know I asked this elsewhere).

3. So how do infections start, is it different areas or what? So confusing, so hair and then face should be fine.

4. What if I get side effects from Fin, do i stop immediately or lower dose. 

5. Any advice for when i start fin? To not psyche myself out? When to take it or how to take it.

 

 

1. Just your ability to use it consistently, like once per day. Don't worry
2. Not sure. https://www.amazon.com/Nizoral-Anti-Dandruff-Shampoo-Ketoconazole-Dandruff/dp/B00AINMFAC You can get 2% without prescription outside the US, but with 1% it is not too drying that you can probably use it every other day, unlike 2%
3. Nothing to worry about, use clean needles. Worst I would worry about is a spot or skin irritation. Starting slow is a safe idea. 
4. Go back to the previous dose, so you ween yourself up or down.
5. Based on how stressed you are, there is no need to even start with every other day. I would buy a pill cutter from the pharmacy, they all have them, and cut the 1mg propecia into 4 pieces (brand name Propecia from Merck if you can, not a generic finasteride). Take this 0,25mg once OR twice per week for several weeks. I like to take it before bed so you can take it and forget about all this crap I am exposing my psyche to, but timing doesn't matter. Takes two weeks for the drug to be out of your system, so it makes sense to just start slow and steady. If one small pill drops your DHT perhaps 50-60%, then slowly DHT goes up again over two weeks, that was good enough to monitor in my opinion rather than 1mg every day dropping it 70%.  

6. Get blood work if you want

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8 hours ago, Hairtroubles said:

And Lastly Jimmy, something super important I wanted to share with you.  And maybe this could change your way of me thinking, or maybe it's not a big deal, but I did read that Fin isn't good for people to take with a history of depression?

 I also do think that one bad chemical reaction internally can lead to a domino effect, heres something that I wanted to say, for an example. I don't know if I did or not, but I suffered with depression a while back, was on anti-depressants for around a year or two. I read that you can't take Fin whilst being on them or if you took them in the past and then take Fin, it messes it up and screws you around, is this true, if so then maybe I shouldn't take it?  Is this something that is serious?

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this if you know more about this.

 

 

Shouldn't be contra-indicated physiologically, just that you are not a good candidate for things based on your fragile thought processes. 

Anti-depressants have significant documented side-effects, including sexual side effects, hair loss. Just to put it in perspective that you are blowing this out of proportion. My side-effect from fin was feeling my testicles a few times. For all I know, that was from the upregulated testosterone that occurs on fin. 

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I've never used Caboki but have used DermMatch for sometime which I thought was great. Whichever you choose it takes a little time and practice to get it right, best way for me was to have an extendable mirror attached to the wall and a mirror front of me.

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16 hours ago, j1mmy said:

1. Just your ability to use it consistently, like once per day. Don't worry
2. Not sure. https://www.amazon.com/Nizoral-Anti-Dandruff-Shampoo-Ketoconazole-Dandruff/dp/B00AINMFAC You can get 2% without prescription outside the US, but with 1% it is not too drying that you can probably use it every other day, unlike 2%
3. Nothing to worry about, use clean needles. Worst I would worry about is a spot or skin irritation. Starting slow is a safe idea. 
4. Go back to the previous dose, so you ween yourself up or down.
5. Based on how stressed you are, there is no need to even start with every other day. I would buy a pill cutter from the pharmacy, they all have them, and cut the 1mg propecia into 4 pieces (brand name Propecia from Merck if you can, not a generic finasteride). Take this 0,25mg once OR twice per week for several weeks. I like to take it before bed so you can take it and forget about all this crap I am exposing my psyche to, but timing doesn't matter. Takes two weeks for the drug to be out of your system, so it makes sense to just start slow and steady. If one small pill drops your DHT perhaps 50-60%, then slowly DHT goes up again over two weeks, that was good enough to monitor in my opinion rather than 1mg every day dropping it 70%.  

6. Get blood work if you want

Thanks mate, I dont get one thing here, how do I measure my DHT, you said if you DHT drops 50-60%, how would I even know or measure that?  You mentioned monitoring that?  How would I even do that?

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16 hours ago, j1mmy said:

Shouldn't be contra-indicated physiologically, just that you are not a good candidate for things based on your fragile thought processes. 

Anti-depressants have significant documented side-effects, including sexual side effects, hair loss. Just to put it in perspective that you are blowing this out of proportion. My side-effect from fin was feeling my testicles a few times. For all I know, that was from the upregulated testosterone that occurs on fin. 

Youre basically saying that this is all in my head? And my fears on fin are also, in my head?  

 

Didn't that worry you, the feelings in your testicle.

 

By the way, I bought Topical Fin, is that a good start, I read there are less side effects?  Does it matter I didnt do the pill?

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23 hours ago, stephcurry30 said:

These doctors don't recommend going too deep while derma rolling. 

I would also not recommend putting anything on the area where you use a derma roller/ derma pen for 24 hours after. 

@Melvin-Moderator

 

I disagree about the derma roller vs derma pen. I think the derma pen is a lot more useful and less damaging to the skin and hair follicles. If you look at the image below the derma roller creates larger pits in the skin that take longer to heal and may create larger area of impact and would damage the hair/hair follicle. Derma Pen creates many more smaller holes which heal a lot faster and have a smaller impact on the hair follicles. (This is my opinion developed from watching derma pen videos from doctors). An example of what I mean can be seen below. 

 

maxresdefault.jpg

Thanks man, am I okay to do my hair/scalp, and then my face straight away after without disinfecting the needles?  Or do I need to disinfect before I go from hair to face?

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