Dutchie

[andy_+_+]

Any news on how Dutchies result ended up?

[Sean]

Yea, it would be nice to know but based on my own archive, his thread was locked.

[andy_+_+]

I think there is away to share the outcome/results that is fair to both the patient and doctor.

 

Its been a while so I imagine cooler heads have prevailed.

 

Here's hoping that the result turned out to be good to great like many of Hasson and Wongs results and Dutchie is satisfied.

[Mick50]

On 2/16/2018 at 9:13 PM, andy_+_+ said:

Any news on how Dutchies result ended up?

I seem to remember the thread  was locked temporarily to give time for Dutchie's  result to fully mature and to let things cool down for both sides to evaluate the situation at that point .

Bill can you let us know if you have any more information on how things turned out for Dutchie regarding his hair transplant result with Hasson/Wong ?    I seem to remember his membership was only temporarily suspended and you  said he would be welcome to post again once things had been resolved .

                       Thanks .

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Mick50

[TrixGlendevon]

I must have missed this. What happened that people needed to cool down and who is "both sides"?

[Mick50]

12 hours ago, TrixGlendevon said:

I must have missed this. What happened that people needed to cool down and who is "both sides"?

Dutchie was a poster on here  he picked Hasson /Wong ,4200 FUT grafts , I remember as it was the exact number of grafts I had  though mine was FUE . He was a bit of a character and I guess one could say he didn't have much of a filter and just said what he thought . He was full of hope and expectation  as he was a NW 5 I would say, and like a lot of us his hair -loss was beginning to badly affect his confidence .

  To cut a long story short his result was well below par considering he went to a top clinic and paid top dollar ,basically things got heated and he wasn't happy with the response he got back form the clinic ,and he made some inappropriate comments which in a sense I cant blame him, as some people were saying it was a satisfactory result and I agree with Dutchie it was well below par , I think he had just about reached the 12 month mark .

I seem to remember the clinic  offered Dutchie to visit them [Think they said they would pay his flight ticket ] and they would evaluate his progress and the agreement was Dutchie would hold fire with his comments on here  til he saw them ,unfortunately he kept posting negative posts and at that time Bill stepped in and decided it was best to suspend his membership until  Dutchie visited the clinic, or resolved matters in a civil manner by private correspondence be it by phone ,email or whatever.

   Would be great to hear how things turned out for Dutchie, hopefully things were sorted out between him and the clinic to both their satisfaction .

Edited August 17, 2018 by Mick50

[TrixGlendevon]

Thanks for the response/story. I know who Dutchie was but I didn't know about the dispute with H&W. I am also curious because they typically have very, very good results. Maybe he smoked?

[delancey]

If smoking actually contributed to a significantly lower growth rate, it would be unethical for any Doctor to perform a hair transplant on a smoker.

I am not saying that you are wrong, but there does seem to be conflicting opinions on how bad smoking actually is for someone who has just had a HT. Interestingly, I have had a well established Doctor ask me if I smoked, while another well regarded Doctor openly claimed that smoking is an excuse used by some should the result not meet expectations. 

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by delancey

[Sean]

Absolutely, if any doctor knows a patient smokes and IF smoking is actually detrimental, then that doctor should turn that patient down immediately instead of taking his or her money.  By working on that patient, the doctor better not say oh you smoked thats why my result is like that like 12 months later.  Because you become medically complicit if that is the case.  Or your surgical forms should say dont smoke for up to a year before surgery and after surgery or something to make it very clear if there is a comcern.  

There was a guy that had heavy necrosis on forums.  A doctor did work on that guy, but when i asked about that particular guy and what happened, the dr unethically said it was due to his heavy smoking which got me offguard.  But it is just funny how the blame can get shifted.  Even if you dont smoke, example: lets see you took a shit with lots of pressure one day and informed doctor and the result came out bad, doctor would remain quite and praise you everything Up till 12 month timeline  saying everything seems on track and then the result starts looking minimal.  He will say wait another 18 to 24 months.  And then when you still say yield is poor at say after all that time wasteage, that same doctor would say that oh its cause of what you did that dislodged my grafts out of nowhere even though the probability is rare since when you took that pressured shit, you were actually 30 days out of your surgery and grafts were anchored.  Again this is a hypothetical scenario.  Unethical docs change and shift excuses and blames throughout the growth timelines.  You can catch them on multiple (100s of technicalities) across the process if you are a great documenter.  

 

[hanginginthewire]

Bump 

[Spaceman]

I took an interest in Dutchie’s case as I was researching Dr. Hasson before ultimately selecting him as my surgeon.

Dutchie was beyond NW5 @Mick50. It would be generous to call him NW6. Here are pre/post op pics from Dr Hasson, along with Dutchie’s own pics.  Dutchie’s first pic is from1 month post op. His second was taken sometime between 6 and 12 months, definitely before the final result.  Maybe someone else remembers when.

At the time, I didn’t assess this as a surgical failure by Dr Hasson. It looked like the grafts grew and covered as much as one can reasonably expect with 4200 light-colored grafts spread out over a very large and nearly entirely bald head.

Perhaps Dr Hasson failed to properly set Dutchie’s expectations, or perhaps Dutchie may have heard what he wanted to hear during the consultation, but IMO, the result is what one would expect.

He has very light hair, a very large dome and was very bald. Hasson could have put twice as many (8400) grafts in the recipient area and still not achieved full illusion of density throughout.

Hopefully it progressed somewhat and Dutchie is happy with it.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Spaceman
Dutchie’s first pic is his 1 month post op, not pre-op as I originally mentioned.

[Sean]

Dutchie at his age in preop pics has higher tufts.   I do not think he is a norwood 6.  

His hair caliber looks stronger than most.  

His head doesn’t seem too big.

4200 grafts could have done a better job.  

He had a patch of native hair in front that he retained at this age.  The placement was all over.  There are lower areas of density seen in those post ops.  

Was his scalp a virgin scalp?

At the end of the day, im hoping an agreement was reached by the two parties of some sort.  This is clearly why every patient should research more and more and get multiple consults.

To go through this krap, it is a terrible feeling.  

 

[Spaceman]

@Sean  Dutchie’s thread is old, but in his initial post on the thread Dutchie wrote that his disadvantages were having a very large head and very thin diameter hair. The result is not what he expected, but 4200 was never going to be enough. 

56 minutes ago, Sean said:

At the end of the day, im hoping an agreement was reached by the two parties of some sort.  This is clearly why every patient should research more and more and get multiple consults.

To go through this krap, it is a terrible feeling.  

Couldn’t agree more. Hopefully Dutchie is better shape these days.

[Mick50]

5 hours ago, Spaceman said:

I took an interest in Dutchie’s case as I was researching Dr. Hasson before ultimately selecting him as my surgeon.

Dutchie was beyond NW5 @Mick50. It would be generous to call him NW6. Here are pre/post op pics from Dr Hasson, along with Dutchie’s own pics.  Dutchie’s first pic is from1 month post op. His second was taken sometime between 6 and 12 months, definitely before the final result.  Maybe someone else remembers when.

At the time, I didn’t assess this as a surgical failure by Dr Hasson. It looked like the grafts grew and covered as much as one can reasonably expect with 4200 light-colored grafts spread out over a very large and nearly entirely bald head.

Perhaps Dr Hasson failed to properly set Dutchie’s expectations, or perhaps Dutchie may have heard what he wanted to hear during the consultation, but IMO, the result is what one would expect.

He has very light hair, a very large dome and was very bald. Hasson could have put twice as many (8400) grafts in the recipient area and still not achieved full illusion of density throughout.

Hopefully it progressed somewhat and Dutchie is happy with it.

 

[Mick50]

Since I was mentioned in despatches so to speak I thought I would show my results with 4200 FUE grafts exactly the same amount as Dutchie had coincidently .

I also had a large dome to cover as a diffused NW 6, I always thought I was  NW 5 but I have been informed by a well known hair transplant mentor that I was a NW 6 . 

My observation and opinion on Dutchie's result hasn't changed and in my opinion his growth after one year was  sub -par and much less than he could  have expected after paying top dollar and going to a highly recommended  clinic with a portfolio of great results.  I have seen guys with similar  hair caliber  and grey hair form Hasson and Wong who have had great results but unfortunately for Dutchie this wasn't the case .

Just to add Dutchie had   much better  hair to skin contrast than I did as I have pale skin and dark hair which as we are always told by Docs is harder to get that illusion of density with .

I hope Dutchie was able to reach a happy conclusion with the clinic be great to hear how things panned out for him 

Just to add I would need another pass to totally cover the crown but at 55 I may not bother as a little topic pretty much covers it and blends pretty much in with the mid-scalp .Also the first pic showing post op ,the long scab is where I banged my head  getting out of a taxi,also knocked  the front as well ,amazing when your head is numbed how your spatial awareness is affected  ,luckily didn't seem  to affect the final result 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Mick50

[Spaceman]

 

@Mick50 You look great! Your result makes even good results pale in comparison.?

I agree that most people with NW5/6 would expect a better result, especially from Hasson and Wong. However, the math is tough in Dutchie’s case.  

His head is very large. He had 4200 grafts placed in an almost completely bald area measuring 200cm2. His average post op density in the treated area would be 21cm2, a bit more if you include the hair in the tuft and margins. With thin diameter hair Dutchie would need 50cm2 to provide an illusion of density. My opinion is that Dutchie’s math was never going to give him a result like yours, or anywhere close.

This was all known ahead of time and should have been discussed before his strip was cut. Perhaps Hasson didn’t say it, or perhaps Dutchie didn’t want to hear it.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Spaceman

[Mick50]

26 minutes ago, Spaceman said:

@Mick50 You look great! Your result makes even good results pale in comparison.?

I agree that most people with NW5/6 would expect a better result, especially from Hasson and Wong. However, the math is tough in Dutchie’s case.  

His head is very large. He had 4200 grafts placed in an almost completely bald area measuring 200cm2. His average post op density in the treated area would be 21cm2, a bit more if you include the hair in the tuft and margins. With thin diameter hair Dutchie would need 50cm2 to provide an illusion of density. My opinion is that Dutchie’s math was never going to give him a result like yours, or anywhere close.

This was all known ahead of time and should have been discussed before his strip was cut. Perhaps Hasson didn’t say it, or perhaps Dutchie didn’t want to hear it.

I realise direct comparison form patient to patient is flawed to say the least..   I also have a large head so the maths apply to me as well ,...but in fairness I  had very good donor density with medium to fine caliber which in my opinion is the best type of hair to get a natural result ,  and  my density was much better than Dutchie's   but in saying that Hasson and Wong were able to get 4200 grafts and which they transplanted form the hair-line to the back of the mid-scalp they didn't go into the deep crown .

I realise I was lucky and it's unusual for someone with my amount of hair-loss  to get  the result I did with just one pass ,most high NW's need at least 2 transplants ,I agree there maybe have been miscommunication between Dutchie and the clinic but 4200 FUT grafts should have given Dutchie  a more satisfactory  result ,after all its about a cosmetic improvement and Dutchie didn't  get that .

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Mick50

[Spaceman]

He definitely did not get the cosmetic benefit he was looking for. Its really shit for him considering the time money, and stress involved. But I just can’t get past the fact that even if 90% of his grafts grew, he’d still only have 18.9 graft/cm2 average density over that really large treated area. That is extremely thin. And that was the likely outcome before the surgery began. And that was the result.

[Mick50]

30 minutes ago, Spaceman said:

He definitely did not get the cosmetic benefit he was looking for. Its really shit for him considering the time money, and stress involved. But I just can’t get past the fact that even if 90% of his grafts grew, he’d still only have 18.9 graft/cm2 average density over that really large treated area. That is extremely thin. And that was the likely outcome before the surgery began. And that was the result.

Well you're entitled to your opinion  ..I personally think the grafts should have been placed more densely in the frontal third to at least get good density there, which is the approach that is take by most top clinics, Dr Feller to name one always recommends  dense packing the frontal third and tapering off towards the back  in high NW'S  ,as apposed to spreading the grafts thinly  over a large area ,    was the approach that was taken agreed upon by both parties, only Dutchie and the clinic know that.  If my memory serves me correct lots of people agreed with me that the result was sub -par,, I also seem to remember Melvin who is now a moderator here also commented that Dutchie could have expected more form 4200 FUT grafts ,,bottom line  is we weren't there at the consultation so we don't know what was said or wasn't said  , I'm sure tho he was told he could expect a better result than he got .

 

For me it just shows even the best Doc get  sub par results and anyone getting a hair transplant should bear that in mind .

Edited October 14, 2018 by Mick50

[Spaceman]

Totally agree that the grafts were spread out too thin to provide the cosmetic benefit that Dutchie was looking for. Maybe Hasson didn’t make that clear.

Dr Hasson said he told Dutchie he’d have no expectation of density and said that Dutchie wanted to proceed with whatever was possible. Dutchie may remember the conversation differently and only those two know what was said.

Consider this exchange from Dutchie’s thread about a Lorenzo patient somewhat similar to Dutchie that he thought was a poor result. 

 

https://vimeopro.com/user23345553/norwood-5-6-7/video/82244306 

Dutchie had 20% fewer grafts transplanted than the Lorenzo patient with similar characteristics as himself over a similarly sized area. Makes me wonder if Dutchie fully understood his situation.

I’m definitely not trying to beat the guy up. I feel bad for him. Its just that the results of the Lorenzo patient are better than what he should have expected, not worse. 

If someone looking for a transplant reads this, develop realistic goals for your situation over consultations with multiple top doctors and walkway from any procedure if your goals are not very likely to be met. 

[Sean]

Dutchie, if you are reading this, respond on a forum you are allowed to.  

I think if a clinic showcases certain results online, customers think that is what is achievable in that particular doctors hands.  Otherwise, why does a customer pay for a particular doc.  Expectations are clinic driven and derived from that.  

Hoping the best for Dutchie.  

[Mick50]

11 hours ago, Spaceman said:

Totally agree that the grafts were spread out too thin to provide the cosmetic benefit that Dutchie was looking for. Maybe Hasson didn’t make that clear.

Dr Hasson said he told Dutchie he’d have no expectation of density and said that Dutchie wanted to proceed with whatever was possible. Dutchie may remember the conversation differently and only those two know what was said.

Consider this exchange from Dutchie’s thread about a Lorenzo patient somewhat similar to Dutchie that he thought was a poor result. 

 

https://vimeopro.com/user23345553/norwood-5-6-7/video/82244306 

Dutchie had 20% fewer grafts transplanted than the Lorenzo patient with similar characteristics as himself over a similarly sized area. Makes me wonder if Dutchie fully understood his situation.

I’m definitely not trying to beat the guy up. I feel bad for him. Its just that the results of the Lorenzo patient are better than what he should have expected, not worse. 

If someone looking for a transplant reads this, develop realistic goals for your situation over consultations with multiple top doctors and walkway from any procedure if your goals are not very likely to be met. 

By the same token you are not beating up Dutchie I am not beating up Hasson/wong  ,I can easily go online and show cases similar to Dutchie's hair loss with much better results than he got ,I have already shown you mine with the exact amount of grafts 4200 ,so are you saying that Hasson/Wong would show -case Dutchies result on their website as what can be expected to achieve  as a NW 5-6. damn right they wouldn't as no one would go any where near them  .

Dutchie did his research on here ,if he wasn't a suitable candidate he should of been told that, most people on here know the difference form someone with unreasonable expectation and someone who quite plainly had a sub -par result .

Edited October 15, 2018 by Mick50

[Mick50]

Easy to see why Dutchie might of expected a better result this guy is a full blown NW 6 and for only 177 more grafts got a pretty good result ..maybe better hair caliber than Dutchie but worse skin to hair contrast .

Just to reiterate again I know no 2 cases are the same but I think it's really unfair to keep harping on about that Dutchie had unreasonable expectations ,the maths you keep on about apply to this guy and to myself, who has a big old noggin 

Just to add there's no point in quoting what Dutchie said or what the Doc said only they know what happened between them and memory as we all know can be very selective .

Edited October 15, 2018 by Mick50

[Spaceman]

18 hours ago, Mick50 said:

Easy to see why Dutchie might of expected a better result

Completely agree.  And that is really why I spoke out on this thread.  I don't want anyone else to end up in Dutchie's position, so I thought I should speak up about it.

Its easy to look at pictures of great results from a similar Norwood level as onesellf and say, hey, that can be me with the same number of grafts.  But it doesn't necessarily work that way. Heads vary quite a bit in size and shape. You really can't say that if an NW7 got a great result with 5000 grafts, then a different NW6 with 5000 grafts should  get the same or better result. That kind of thinking can get someone into trouble. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Spaceman

[Mick50]

9 hours ago, Spaceman said:

Completely agree.  And that is really why I spoke out on this thread.  I don't want anyone else to end up in Dutchie's position, so I thought I should speak up about it.

Its easy to look at pictures of great results from a similar Norwood level as onesellf and say, hey, that can be me with the same number of grafts.  But it doesn't necessarily work that way. Heads vary quite a bit in size and shape. You really can't say that if an NW7 got a great result with 5000 grafts, then a different NW6 with 5000 grafts should  get the same or better result. That kind of thinking can get someone into trouble. 

OK I will rephrase that , when I say that when I say that Dutchie might have expected a better result, in my opinion he should have got a better result ,I have already stated that no two cases are the same, different hair caliber density etc, but  I'm afraid that can be used  as a cop out by  clinics when a sub -par result happens .

 

 

Hasson/Wong from what I remember were more than fair with Dutchie , they were willing to pay for Dutchie's flight to evaluate growth and I'm sure if he had taken up their offer an agreement could have been made between them ,they generally produce great results and are a top tier clinic and have been for years .

I think the lesson here [in this case], for other people is not one of too high an expectation but that even the top clinics/Docs get sub-par results  what that percentage is I have no idea .

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Mick50