FUT is more popular than FUE

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Thank you Dr Feller.

 

Asked about the method as I just wondered if it was standard practice for doctors to note placement/number of grafts in a procedure and then later count said grafts (fairly laborious and difficult) or to do so in one square centimetre and take that as an average (which would assume even results throughout) or just examine and take an educated guess.

 

And thank you Des. That's another of my worries - a lifetime of chasing my tail.

 

I think there are very few doctors who won't at least take a mental note of the success of a prior transplant when the hair is shaved down in preparation for a second procedure. You really have to as the doctor because in the second procedure you have to be careful to go between the grafts of the first procedure and thus be aware of the density. When placing new recipient sites between prior FUE grafts this is usually much easier because there are more spaces. Unfortunately, there is also more fibrotic tissue representing grafts that were implanted, but didn't grow. And in patients who have had body hair transplants it's like implanting into a fibrotic minefield.

[California]

What scare tactics?

 

Again, Dr. Bhatti has been posting Patient cases in REAL TIME. Please note that the Patient pictures show the daily newspaper which proves beyond doubt that the pictures are not "dug out" from databases. Can you say the same for the FUE Patient picture that you posted?

 

I clearly DON'T perform daily FUE cases because I find them to be too damaging to the grafts and unethical in most patients

 

Dr. Feller,

With all due respect, Dr. Bhatti never asked you to post your "FUE cases". Rather, he asked you to post your "FUT cases to repair the FAILED FUE HT's". You always blame folks for not reading/understanding what is written properly. I am requesting to re-read what Dr. Bhatti had challenged you for.

 

The real challenge is in comparing techniques not how many patients you can inflict FUE on per day. Your doctor posted a hideous video of grafts being removed haphazardly and in haste. My video, on the other hand demonstrated a paced and delicate procedure. I win. Hands down.

 

That is a pretty strong, unilateral and unsubstantiated declaration of victory. You win? Hands down? Says who?

Maybe you are the plaintiff, the defendant, the jury AND the JUDGE!

 

You never did give your comments on it. Would YOU want that done to your grafts? How about to a loved one?

 

I am a Patient of Dr. Bhatti. I chose Dr. Bhatti as my HT Surgeon after years of research and AFTER 2 FAILED FUT procedures by a prominent Clinic in California. Does that answer your question?

I became Dr. Bhatti's Patient Advisor only after I was extremely satisfied with my HT procedure and the HT results with Dr. Bhatti. Like his other Patients, I believe in Dr. Bhatti and have full faith in his expertise. I am not "selling" Dr. Bhatti to anyone.....I am just sharing what I have experienced myself. So, the answer to your question is a RESOUNDING YES!!!

 

Also, this thread has over 41,000 hits so I don't think interest is dropping at all as you're doctor is claiming. There are more hits each 24 hour period compared to the previous 24 hour period.

 

If the hits to the thread make you feel good, we are happy for you. May your thread reach the 100,000 hit mark soon! One of the members commented on this thread.....'who needs Netflix".....

 

Best regards,

California

[Dr. Alan Feller]

What scare tactics?

 

Again, Dr. Bhatti has been posting Patient cases in REAL TIME. Please note that the Patient pictures show the daily newspaper which proves beyond doubt that the pictures are not "dug out" from databases. Can you say the same for the FUE Patient picture that you posted?

 

I clearly DON'T perform daily FUE cases because I find them to be too damaging to the grafts and unethical in most patients

 

Dr. Feller,

With all due respect, Dr. Bhatti never asked you to post your "FUE cases". Rather, he asked you to post your "FUT cases to repair the FAILED FUE HT's". You always blame folks for not reading/understanding what is written properly. I am requesting to re-read what Dr. Bhatti had challenged you for.

 

The real challenge is in comparing techniques not how many patients you can inflict FUE on per day. Your doctor posted a hideous video of grafts being removed haphazardly and in haste. My video, on the other hand demonstrated a paced and delicate procedure. I win. Hands down.

 

That is a pretty strong, unilateral and unsubstantiated declaration of victory. You win? Hands down? Says who?

Maybe you are the plaintiff, the defendant, the jury AND the JUDGE!

 

You never did give your comments on it. Would YOU want that done to your grafts? How about to a loved one?

 

I am a Patient of Dr. Bhatti. I chose Dr. Bhatti as my HT Surgeon after years of research and AFTER 2 FAILED FUT procedures by a prominent Clinic in California. Does that answer your question?

I became Dr. Bhatti's Patient Advisor only after I was extremely satisfied with my HT procedure and the HT results with Dr. Bhatti. Like his other Patients, I believe in Dr. Bhatti and have full faith in his expertise. I am not "selling" Dr. Bhatti to anyone.....I am just sharing what I have experienced myself. So, the answer to your question is a RESOUNDING YES!!!

 

Also, this thread has over 41,000 hits so I don't think interest is dropping at all as you're doctor is claiming. There are more hits each 24 hour period compared to the previous 24 hour period.

 

If the hits to the thread make you feel good, we are happy for you. May your thread reach the 100,000 hit mark soon! One of the members commented on this thread.....'who needs Netflix".....

 

Best regards,

California

 

Oh, I see, your challenge is much more genuine (sarcasm). You want to compare the number of patients who come through your doors daily with prior FUT work seeking repair compared to the number of patients who come through my door daily with prior FUE work seeking repair.

 

Did you happen to note the name of this thread or read the first post? Obviously there is far less FUE out there as there is FUT. You must know this. So how is this anything more than a disingenuous challenge?

 

With respect to the video, did you actually see how your doctor performed the procedure before you signed up for it? Did he inform you of any differences in expected yield in general between FUE and FUT?

[California]

Oh, I see, your challenge is much more genuine (sarcasm). You want to compare the number of patients who come through your doors daily with prior FUT work seeking repair compared to the number of patients who come through my door daily with prior FUE work seeking repair.

 

Did you happen to note the name of this thread or read the first post? Obviously there is far less FUE out there as there is FUT. You must know this. So how is this anything more than a disingenuous challenge?

 

With respect to the video, did you actually see how your doctor performed the procedure before you signed up for it? Did he inform you of any differences in expected yield in general between FUE and FUT?

 

Dr. Feller,

 

Sorry to say but your sarcasm doesn't really work on me. Again, had you read my post "thoroughly", you would have noticed that I said "I am a Patient of Dr. Bhatti. I chose Dr. Bhatti as my HT Surgeon after years of research and AFTER 2 FAILED FUT procedures by a prominent Clinic in California"

Don't you think that "years of research" and 2 FAILED FUT PROCEDURES IN CALIFORNIA would involve reaching out the past Patients of the HT Surgeon that I chose for my FUE HT? Involve watching videos of the HT Surgeon that are available on his website and Youtube? Please don't underestimate the Patients. I am not a Medical Doctor (my wife is) but for whatever it is worth, I do have a couple of Masters Degrees and hence I believe I should be capable of researching and making educated decisions.

 

Don't you find it strange that Dr. Bhatti's "FUE" Patients are SO SATISFIED with their results that sometimes folks "think" that they are Dr. Bhatti's reps? These are folks that come from different parts of the world and most probably, won't need to see Dr. Bhatti again.

I take this as a compliment to FUE in general and Dr. Bhatti in particular.

 

On a personal level, it kills me to say this line to my hair dresser "EVERY SINGLE TIME"......"Please make sure that you don't shorten my hair too much .....I have a scar that I need to conceal"...........That said, I started going to the hair dressers only AFTER Dr. Bhatti and FUE gave me my hair back!

So, THANK YOU FUE AND THANK YOU, DR. BHATTI! MY ONLY REGRET IS THAT I DID NOT MEET YOU GUYS BEFORE!

 

Best regards,

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Dr. Feller,

 

Sorry to say but your sarcasm doesn't really work on me. Again, had you read my post "thoroughly", you would have noticed that I said "I am a Patient of Dr. Bhatti. I chose Dr. Bhatti as my HT Surgeon after years of research and AFTER 2 FAILED FUT procedures by a prominent Clinic in California"

Don't you think that "years of research" and 2 FAILED FUT PROCEDURES IN CALIFORNIA would involve reaching out the past Patients of the HT Surgeon that I chose for my FUE HT? Involve watching videos of the HT Surgeon that are available on his website and Youtube? Please don't underestimate the Patients. I am not a Medical Doctor (my wife is) but for whatever it is worth, I do have a couple of Masters Degrees and hence I believe I should be capable of researching and making educated decisions.

 

Don't you find it strange that Dr. Bhatti's "FUE" Patients are SO SATISFIED with their results that sometimes folks "think" that they are Dr. Bhatti's reps? These are folks that come from different parts of the world and most probably, won't need to see Dr. Bhatti again.

I take this as a compliment to FUE in general and Dr. Bhatti in particular.

 

On a personal level, it kills me to say this line to my hair dresser "EVERY SINGLE TIME"......"Please make sure that you don't shorten my hair too much .....I have a scar that I need to conceal"...........That said, I started going to the hair dressers only AFTER Dr. Bhatti and FUE gave me my hair back!

So, THANK YOU FUE AND THANK YOU, DR. BHATTI! MY ONLY REGRET IS THAT I DID NOT MEET YOU GUYS BEFORE!

 

Best regards,

 

You still haven't answered my question.

 

Did you or did you not see a video of your doctor's technique BEFORE your procedure?

 

Which video demonstrates a more gentile technique to your mind? His or mine?

 

And since your wife is a doctor, what does she think of the way tissue is being treated in that video?

[Kilimanjaro]

Hello Dr. Feller, maybe you missed my prior post. Please try to answer these questions:

 

1) How did you lose all that weight.

2) How many HTs have you had, and how many grafts total? I assume all strip?

3) What do you think about ARTAS. They have probably sold at least 150 of those by now. Do you think ARTAS FUE is worse than say Australia doctor's or Atlanta doctor's FUE in terms of yield and scarring?

 

Thank you.

[Kilimanjaro]

Dr. Feller, perhaps you missed my last post and I would appreciate your answers to the below:

 

1) How did you lose so much weight?

2) How many HTs have you had and how many total grafts? All Strip?

3) What do you think about ARTAS FUE? They must have sold at least 150 of those robots by now.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hi Bill,

 

I posted a the link here, absolutely to make a point in the FUT vs FUE debate. The prior post on this thread was from Dr. Feller showing the donor area for a FUE Patient. I posted the link and attached the picture here to "also" show the donor area of a Dr. Bhatti (FUE) Patient 6 months post-op, who chose to wear his hair short in the donor area.

 

There is/was absolutely no intention to promote Dr. Bhatti's results. Been around on this Forum for a few years now and I am sure that you will agree that we do not resort to such tactics.

 

Please let me know if you have any questions and/or concerns. I will be happy to address.

 

Best regards,

California

 

California,

 

Ok, that makes sense. In the future, just make sure that you are more specific in your comments so that people reading it understand the point...otherwise it just looks like you are using a popular topic to self promote Dr. Bhatti's work.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[California]

You still haven't answered my question.

 

Did you or did you not see a video of your doctor's technique BEFORE your procedure?

 

Which video demonstrates a more gentile technique to your mind? His or mine?

 

And since your wife is a doctor, what does she think of the way tissue is being treated in that video?

 

Dr. Feller,

 

I thought that I had answered your question very clearly but since you have asked the question "again", here is my answer:

1. Yes, I had seen the video of Dr. Bhatti's technique BEFORE I went all the way to India for my HT. His videos are readily available for anyone to see on his website and/or on Youtube. I don't want to comment on your or any other FUT practicing Surgeons technique since I had promised myself that I would never go "under the knife" again.

 

2. My wife did not raise any concerns after watching Dr. Bhatti's HT procedure videos with me. HOWEVER, she was totally appalled after witnessing my FUT procedure (which was done in the San Francisco Bay Area) because I had told her that it was a "minor procedure" and what she saw was major cutting and stitching of the scalp...not to mention all the bleeding and the permanent scar that I have to live with for the rest of my life!

 

I hope my answers are clear now.....crystal clear.....

 

Best regards,

California

[Bill - Seemiller]

I appreciate everyone's interest in this debate. This topic includes thousands of views every day and includes over 40,000 views and almost 1000 replies. That's pretty impressive. In fact, I will be creating and sending a newsletter about this topic and inviting others to get involved as well.

 

I have been doing my best to follow along with this topic, but honestly, it's so popular and busy, it's hard to read every single post. That said, I'd like to know where Dr. Feller came up with the statistic that FUE yields only 75% growth. Is this strictly conjecture, an educated guess or an actual statistic from a controlled study?

 

Regardless however, I firmly believe that FUE is not only here to stay, but will only become increasingly popular. I also firmly believe (despite Dr. Feller's claims) that FUE has improved over the last decade. I've posted several links to editorial content on our website that show much of the innovation and evolution of FUE. For those who missed it, you can start by looking at the "Follicular Unit Extraction (FUE)" editorial content on the Hair Transplant Network. Be sure to follow all the links.

 

Given that FUE is here to stay, the real question is, how do we all work together (namely physicians) to improve the technique even more so that any remaining forces or issues are overcome? While no physician has X-ray vision, I have heard from many physicians (in particular those who use manual devices) that they can tell a lot by "feel". Also, by inspecting the graft after extraction, it should be relatively easy to determine whether or not the graft has been transected or damaged.

 

I also don't want to ignore Dr. Vories' comments regarding implanter pens. While the main difference between strip and FUE is regarding the donor harvesting process, implanter pens can assist with minimizing damage to the graft during the implantation portion of the procedure. Read more about "Implanter Pens and other FUE Implantation Devices and Tools". While implanter pens may not be for everyone, some swear by them.

 

Despite such a hot topic and heated debate, at the end of the day, I still firmly believe that physicians providing their input are strictly speaking from their own experience and/or studies they've seen. Everything else is just opinion. There is no way for Dr. Feller, Dr. Bhatti, Dr. Vories or any physician to know the success rate of FUE or any procedure at another physician's clinic. That said, it would be interesting to hear other physicians' experience with FUE as well.

 

FUE megasessions are also becoming increasingly popular. I am a firm believer of quality over quantity. However, if physicians are able to harvest and implant more follicular units per day without sacrificing growth yield, then I'm all for it. The question is, does speed and the ability of moving more hair per day make one physician better than another assuming yield is not sacrificed? I'd like people's opinions on that, especially as we begin to create/refine FUE standards for physicians we recommend. What's everyone's opinion on that?

 

I look forward to everyone's ongoing input.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I appreciate everyone's interest in this debate. This topic includes thousands of views every day and includes over 40,000 views and almost 1000 replies. That's pretty impressive. In fact, I will be creating and sending a newsletter about this topic and inviting others to get involved as well.

 

I have been doing my best to follow along with this topic, but honestly, it's so popular and busy, it's hard to read every single post. That said, I'd like to know where Dr. Feller came up with the statistic that FUE yields only 75% growth. Is this strictly conjecture, an educated guess or an actual statistic from a controlled study?

 

Regardless however, I firmly believe that FUE is not only here to stay, but will only become increasingly popular. I also firmly believe (despite Dr. Feller's claims) that FUE has improved over the last decade. I've posted several links to editorial content on our website that show much of the innovation and evolution of FUE. For those who missed it, you can start by looking at the "Follicular Unit Extraction (FUE)" editorial content on the Hair Transplant Network. Be sure to follow all the links.

 

Given that FUE is here to stay, the real question is, how do we all work together (namely physicians) to improve the technique even more so that any remaining forces or issues are overcome? While no physician has X-ray vision, I have heard from many physicians (in particular those who use manual devices) that they can tell a lot by "feel". Also, by inspecting the graft after extraction, it should be relatively easy to determine whether or not the graft has been transected or damaged.

 

I also don't want to ignore Dr. Vories' comments regarding implanter pens. While the main difference between strip and FUE is regarding the donor harvesting process, implanter pens can assist with minimizing damage to the graft during the implantation portion of the procedure. Read more about "Implanter Pens and other FUE Implantation Devices and Tools". While implanter pens may not be for everyone, some swear by them.

 

Despite such a hot topic and heated debate, at the end of the day, I still firmly believe that physicians providing their input are strictly speaking from their own experience and/or studies they've seen. Everything else is just opinion. There is no way for Dr. Feller, Dr. Bhatti, Dr. Vories or any physician to know the success rate of FUE or any procedure at another physician's clinic. That said, it would be interesting to hear other physicians' experience with FUE as well.

 

FUE megasessions are also becoming increasingly popular. I am a firm believer of quality over quantity. However, if physicians are able to harvest and implant more follicular units per day without sacrificing growth yield, then I'm all for it. The question is, does speed and the ability of moving more hair per day make one physician better than another assuming yield is not sacrificed? I'd like people's opinions on that, especially as we begin to create/refine FUE standards for physicians we recommend. What's everyone's opinion on that?

 

I look forward to everyone's ongoing input.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

 

Bill,

The only way for FUE to improve is for new practical technologies to be invented. To date they haven't been.

 

I got the 75% number by simply looking at the results of FUE patients, both mine and others. Actually, I think the number is lower.

 

You are correct that we can't go into physicians offices and collect the data ourselves on growth yields. But we also can't look to patient results either because they are very variable in and of themselves. And, most importantly, we can't tell how many grafts were used to achieve a particular result.

 

The only way to evaluate where FUE stands with respect to FUT is to compare the procedures themselves. And that's pretty easy. Look at the Bhatti video and look at the Feller video. Look at the Lorenzo video, I've seen that bounced around too, and simply compare using common sense. The more in depth stuff is addressed rather deeply in my posts right here on this thread.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Hello Dr. Feller, maybe you missed my prior post. Please try to answer these questions:

 

1) How did you lose all that weight.

2) How many HTs have you had, and how many grafts total? I assume all strip?

3) What do you think about ARTAS. They have probably sold at least 150 of those by now. Do you think ARTAS FUE is worse than say Australia doctor's or Atlanta doctor's FUE in terms of yield and scarring?

 

Thank you.

 

I did miss your post. Here goes:

 

1. What weight loss? Are you implying I was fat?!!!

I lost 55 pounds in 10 months by doing two main things. No joke. The first was cut pizza almost totally out of my diet. The second was I walked outside 4 miles per day no matter the weather. That's it. No running, no harsh dieting, no strenuous exercise. Thank you for noticing.

 

2. I have had Three HTs. The first was to my hairline which did not work well. The second was to my hairline and top. It worked incredibly well. The third was to my posterior top and anterior crown. It worked ok. But in all fairness not a lot to work with. I'm very happy with my results.

 

3. An ARTAS rep would show up at my office every now and then to sell me on the machine. Very nice and amiable guy, but I just couldn't see the point in buying one. All it does is score around the graft for a few hundred thousand dollars. Well, I can do that for $50 with a feller punch and do it faster with greater care.

The only ARTAS results I've seen have been online and I have not been impressed at all. By now I would have thought they would have a huge catalog of great results. But no. At first I thought it might have a place in the office of a novice HT doctor in that the technology could make up for the inexperience of the doctor. But so far it hasn't done that.

 

Hey, if this device worked as advertised I'd buy ten of them and do ten cases at a time and perhaps program one to make me coffee so I can kick up and read the paper while the machines did my work. But nope. Not happening.

 

As far as comparing the ARTAS to those doctors, I suspect that they would all create the same amount of scarring if they performed the same number of scoring attempts. I say attempts because not all extractions are successful. And while you may not be rewarded with an intact graft, you will still definitely get the donor scar and subsequent fibrosis.

 

As far as yields it extends passed the machine. The hard part in FUE isn't the scoring, it's the "delivering" of the graft. Since the ARTAS users are more likely to be inexperienced next to the other doctors you mentioned (or didn't mention) I suspect their yields would be lower.

[Kilimanjaro]

Very much appreciated Dr. Feller!

 

You do look great now and I better start walking 8 miles per day... as I cannot quit my once a week pizza and twice a week beer.

 

THIS FORUM IS MESSED UP. MOST OF MY FEW POSTS FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS HAVE COME THROUGH TWICE.

[Kilimanjaro]

Very much appreciated Dr. Feller!

 

You do look great now and I better start walking 8 miles per day... as I cannot quit my once a week pizza and twice a week beer.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

This forum must think your posts are twice as important as anyone else's. You should be flattered.

[Melvin- Admin]

Bill,

The only way for FUE to improve is for new practical technologies to be invented. To date they haven't been.

 

I got the 75% number by simply looking at the results of FUE patients, both mine and others. Actually, I think the number is lower.

 

You are correct that we can't go into physicians offices and collect the data ourselves on growth yields. But we also can't look to patient results either because they are very variable in and of themselves. And, most importantly, we can't tell how many grafts were used to achieve a particular result.

 

The only way to evaluate where FUE stands with respect to FUT is to compare the procedures themselves. And that's pretty easy. Look at the Bhatti video and look at the Feller video. Look at the Lorenzo video, I've seen that bounced around too, and simply compare using common sense. The more in depth stuff is addressed rather deeply in my posts right here on this thread.

 

Wow you had some posters on here creating diagrams and graphs based off of a percentage you came up with based off of looks. You bring up a good point about comparing both procedures, but when I tried to bring up 3 detrimental factors in FUT it was swept aside as a mere distraction, I think in order to compare both procedures we need to review the good and bad from both procedures do you agree Dr. Feller?

[Kilimanjaro]

If only I was the only one who was seeing double posts Dr. Feller!! It seems to happen to half the people. Sometimes the system crashes after I post, then I refresh and it double posts. But why is it happening to so many people? I want to be alone in this.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Wow you had some posters on here creating diagrams and graphs based off of a percentage you came up with based off of looks. You bring up a good point about comparing both procedures, but when I tried to bring up 3 detrimental factors in FUT it was swept aside as a mere distraction, I think in order to compare both procedures we need to review the good and bad from both procedures do you agree Dr. Feller?

 

Sure HTsoon. If you can come up with 3 detrimental forces that negatively affect follicles as much as those as FUE then I am all ears.

The stage is yours, go.

[darlinglocks]

I applaud you for your comments California. At least they don't try to silence you!

Thank you for Speaking out and having a voice.

Yes, strange that as happy patients from Dr Bhatti, we are criticised that much for telling how great he is in his job!

[Melvin- Admin]

Well they're not "three detrimental factors" that affect follicles but they are certainly " three detrimental factors" that affect the overall results and certainly would affect my self confidence. The first is the hair growing in different directions in the scar line? How is this prevented? Why does it occur? Second is the unpredictability of the scar widening, is there a way a patient can tell whether their scar will widen or stretch? and the third is the waste of valuable grafts to the scar region that could be used on the scalp, obviously though if there is a way to predict whether the scar will stretch there'd be no need to use grafts to the scar.

 

These three things have been the biggest reasons why I haven't chosen FUT I wear my hair short on the sides so the hair growing in different directions would be obvious with my hairstyle, the scar stretching is another thing i couldn't live with, and I wouldn't want to use my grafts in a scar, are you able to use body hair?

[FUE2014]

What people need to bear in mind here is that if FUSS was absolutely the gold standard, with superior yields and "pencil thin" scar lines, FUE's popularity would not be what it is these days, especially when you consider FUSS is appreciably cheaper than FUE. I honestly dont think there is anything FUSS advocates / FUE detractors can say that will reduce the demand for FUE. I'm not sure where else FUSS can go, it doesn't seem to be evolving and improving to the same extent FUE is. The thought of being "stripped out" is just very unappealing to a lot of people and the longer recovery time is off putting too. As folks who have had FUE and FUSS will attest to, the recovery for FUE is a walk in the park compared to FUSS, and its a lot easier to disguise you have had surgery too. These are things that matter to most people which is why FUE is so popular these days, and I can't see anything changing that.

[Dr Tejinder Bhatti]

So Dr. Bhatti posted a photo presentation that includes the eeeevil linear scar- and is allowing it to speak for itself.

 

This is with full hair-

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJTXIzcCn0I&feature=em-upload_owner

Edited August 23, 2015 by David - Moderator

[BadBeat]

This is with full hair-

 

Man...poor guy. I hope you're able to fix him up Dr. Bhatti. He probably would look a lot better with his hair buzzed instead of growing it uncontrollably long like that to hide the scar.

[Sethticles]

Man...poor guy. I hope you're able to fix him up Dr. Bhatti. He probably would look a lot better with his hair buzzed instead of growing it uncontrollably long like that to hide the scar.

 

 

i can already hear the feller calls now....

strip out until you cannot strip now more then go fue.......

 

personally think he would look good with buzz cut, once Dr Bhatti fixes him up he'll be looking alot better probably happier too...

[FUE2014]

That's an awful scar. Dr Bhatti is this an older type of strip scar though, i.e. one you wouldn't tend to see with trichophytic closure?