Laser Comb/Herbal DHT Blocker/Rogaine 5 months now

[worriedgirl]

I am a female and wrote back in March about my hair issues.

 

Shortly after that, I began taking some kind of herbal DHT blocker, rogaine twice a day faithfully and a Hairmax laser comb 3x per week. I must say, I've noticed a big difference in my hair and am feeling much much better.

 

The reason I'm writing though is because I'm sick of using the laser comb. The packaging says it takes about 15 minutes but in reality to do it properly, takes about 25 minutes on my head.

 

I'm afraid to stop using it though, because since I started using all these "fixes" at the same time, I'm not quite sure what is working and what isn't. I won't quit the rogaine, but does anyone have any comments about my regimen (about the laser comb...).

 

Thanks!

[Dr. Alan Feller]

WG,

There is absolutely NO evidence that laser combs produce a significant cosmetic difference in even the most devout of users.

 

There is absolutely NO physiological mechanism that can support the claim that lasers can positively affect hair follicles at ANY level of strength, frequency, or polarization.

 

The supposed "scientific" evidence used by the marketing machines of laser manufacturers are JUNK science and not applicable to clinical reality.

 

Laser combs and the "science" that supports it is as bogus as the tale of man-made global warming and the bunk "science" that's used to support that massive hoax.

 

Don't buy it...literally.

 

Here is a link to an article I wrote on the subject of laser light therapy for hairloss:

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/146...861/m/8241085633/p/1

 

Here is a link to some comments I made after debating a physician who sells so-called "laser treatments" to hairloss sufferers for THOUSANDS of dollars per year. This debate was aired on a nationally syndicated radio talkshow.

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/146...861/m/8241085633/p/1

 

 

I also took on the so-called "inventor" of the Hairmax laser comb that you use in another live radio debate and exposed him for the ignorant layman that he is. While he is definitely a marketing expert, he is a scientific lout whose only agenda in my opinion is to seperate innocent people from their money. People like you Worriedgirl.

 

I would recommend sending your lasercomb back to Hairmax for a refund. If you really want to expose your head to laser light, just go to the store and buy a $2.00 laser pointer and shine it through your hair. You will achieve the same cosmetic efficacy as that Hairmax laser comb- ZERO, but you will have $498 more dollars in your bank account.

 

Best of luck WG.

Dr. Feller

[Bill - Seemiller]

worriedgirl,

 

Though I certainly respect Dr. Feller's opinion, you should know that not every hair restoration physician is as extreme on one side as he is.

 

I do agree with Dr. Feller however, that more public evidence needs to be made available before I personally start advocating laser hair therapy as a "proven" treatment.

 

The FDA "Clearance" of the Hairmax lasercomb supposedly did include a study on efficacy however, to date, even this has not been released. At the annual ISHRS (International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery) scientific meeting, I did stop and speak with Lexington International and they reported that this study was going to be publicly released soon. Why the delay? I'm not sure.

 

I would suggest that if laser therapy works, that realistic expectations must be developed. Significant cosmetic improvement with any hair loss treatment (even Propecia and Rogaine) is very rare, especially in patients with excessive hair loss.

 

A few leading hair restoration physicians I spoke with (sited in the article) believe laser therapy may be better as a hair loss prevention tool than to stimulate hair regrowth.

 

I also encourage you to read an article I wrote on laser therapy by doing extensive research and speaking to a number of leading hair restoration physicians in the field. Dr. Feller was one source I drew information from and is mentioned in the article. Read more on laser therapy as a hair loss treatment.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

I believe laser combs are bogus and a scam no matter what ANYBODY claims.

All of the centers here in Illinois are shutting down or shut down

Any doctor charging for this crap should be lasered in half.

For woman propecia rogaine spiro are the best ways to get hair back if possible.

Take that laser and ebay it and buy 3 years of fin and rogaine.

Those doctor that say it helps stop the loss are full of it .

There has been ample time to prove any benefits and so far nothing

Those centers that are closed now had everyone apply a potion with a dht blocker and minox because they know thats what really works.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Bill and anyone who might believe in laser therapy for hairloss,

 

Since there has not been even one satisfactory before/after photo demonstrating the usefulness of LLLT AND there has not been any mechanism of action described by which LLLT might even have a beneficial effect on the inner workings of the follicle at the cellular level, I believe we can safely conclude that not only does LLLT not work, but that offering such "therapy" to patients for compensation is unethical and preditory.

 

Just because there are physicians offering this "therapy" doesn't mean that LLLT is deserving of any credibility. In fact, the reverse is true, by offering LLLT to their patients I believe these doctors impugn their own credibility as well as that of the profession they belong to.

 

I am a skeptic of this so-called therapy because it CAN'T work by the laws of physics and medicine AND the gigantic fact that nobody has yet shown ANY cosmetically signficant results-least of all those who are making the most money from it: the manufacturers and the doctors!

 

It is up to the doctors you mentioned in your article to prove to us that what they are charging their patients hundreds or thousands of dollars for ACTUALLY works. And yet I, nor you, have seen ONE before/after photo series from ANY of the doctors you mentioned in your article that supports LLLT.

 

On the other hand I have debated a doctor and the owner of Lexington (manufacturers of the Hairmax laser comb) on the radio and exposed the fact that they have absolutely NO understanding of either the physics of laser light nor cellular physiology. I have also shown that the before/after photos on the Hairmax site are deceptive at best.

 

In your article you mentioned that the doctors who support and sell LLLT "FEEL" there is a benefit. Did you ask them to produce any solid evidence of this efficacy? Would you ask them today to justify their position on LLLT in light of the fact not one of them has posted ANY before/after photos?

 

Since it is the duty of doctors in the Coaltion to be transparent, it is my opinion that these doctors in particular stand accountable for what they are selling to the public and publish the proof that what they are offering patients actually works. If they can't do this, I believe they owe an explaination and an apology to this community, their patients, and the professional medical community.

 

So here's an important question. If a Coalition doctor can not prove that their LLLT treatments result in a consistent stream of cosmetically significant results, should their place on the Coaltion (or even Recommended) list be challenged?

 

Dr. Feller

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr. Feller,

 

Your position on laser therapy is well noted, but other leading physicians who have used it as a regular part of their practice seem to feel differently.

 

I tend to keep more of an open mind but won't personally recommend laser therapy as a hair loss treatment until I see more compelling evidence. Just like you, I'm waiting for impressive before/after photos.

 

Based on my conversation with Dr. Williams and Dr. Charles, I believe they are very serious about promoting realistic expectations first and foremost. Both surgeons claim to have seen a cosmetic (though maybe not significant depending on how you define this) difference in some (not all) of their laser therapy patients. Dr. Williams and Dr. Charles see laser therapy as one more tool in potentially fighting against hair loss.

 

I too would like to see some compelling photos of its efficacy. However, as you know, surgeons recommended here are recommended based on their surgical ability and consistency in results as well as their ethics. A "belief" in laser therapy based on experience with it does not make them "unethical and preditory". Providing proof of laser therapy efficacy is not within the scope of recommendation or Coalition membership.

 

But for basis of discussion, can you describe your experience with laser therapy? Have you conducted any experiments with it or is your opinion based solely on the lack of public evidence?

 

Though the latter is certainly a logical conclusion (one that I too have drawn), I'd think that conducting experiments on a large patient sample size may solidify or nullify your current position. Dr. Williams and Dr. Charles both admitted their reluctance of its efficacy but after using it in their practice state that they have seen some level of cosmetic improvement in some patients.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Dr. Alan Feller]

Bill,

 

Why are you trying to ride the fence on this issue? You have already stated many times that you have not seen any more evidence of the efficacy of LLLT than I.

 

It is not MY responsibility to DISPROVE assertions made by others. It's up to those making the extraordinary claims to demonstrate definatively that what they say is true. The burden is on THEM, not ME.

 

What more evidence do you need to conclude LLLT doesn't work? It's been around for years and yet there are NO non-deceptive before/after photos offered by either manufacturers of the laser devices nor the doctors who bill patients hundreds and thousands of dollars for their use.

 

Even the Coaltion and Recommended doctors you cited in your article have not shown any results, yet they continue to offer it to their patients anyway because they "feel" it works?! Are we back in the dark ages? Why in the world would you accept that line of "reasoning"? Why would anybody?

 

You wrote:

--------------

A "belief" in laser therapy based on experience with it does not make them "unethical and preditory".

--------------

Yes it does, especially when the person doing the "believing" is a licensed physician who accepts money for performing useless "treatments" they KNOW has not resulted in any cosmetically significant benefit AND they have absoltuely no hard evidence of efficacy. Bill, they can't even offer a clinical mechanism of action as to how such "treatment" could work.

 

I don't have to perform a study on the supposed effects of LLLT therapy because I know it doesn't work. It CAN'T work. "Laser" is not a substance like a drug or chemical. It is only a form of energy. A laser is a columnated form of energy which means it will not spread out the way standard light does over distance. It is neat to look at a laser beam, but being columnated gives the light no extra inherent qualities except to maintain a certain power level over a great distance.

 

But once the laser light is absorbed by a surface, like skin, it is NO LONGER columnated and thus it is no more a laser. The energy in the light is absorbed by the surrounding tissue and CONVERTED TO HEAT! That's it. That's all that happens. Period. End of story. Different frequencies allow the light to penetrate to different depths of skin with varying power levels. But not once is the "laser" nature of the light maintained after absorption.

 

One doesn't have to perform a study on so-called "flying carpets" to know they don't work. Doctors who charge their patients for "rides" on them because they "believe" and "feel" they fly should be held to account-especially if their name is on an elite list that, among other criteria, assesses their ethics toward patients and the general public.

 

Bill, while your keeping an "open mind" despite the fact that you yourself don't believe in LLLT, thousands of innocent people are spending tremendous amounts of money at their HT doctor's office for a "therapy" you and I both know has no efficacy. Shouldn't HTN be THE voice of reason against this false therapy and those who seek to profit from it?

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Im just wondering how many of their patients are using fin and rogaine.

Not many people hear about the laser before those 2 proven treatments.

Dont you think by now SOMEONE would have shown their results on here or any other boards ?

Dont you think with the thousands and thousand of dollars that are made that every hair doc would invest in one.

Nothing wrong with making alot of easy money ,and it may not be unethical but its downright shady.

For thousands of dollars just seeing some results in some people who are probably on rogaine and fin is preying on on desperation.

We only hear a few DOCTORS now saying they see results hmmmmm $$$$$$$$$$$$

Maybe thats why they dont posts many pics on here they are too busy powering up the magic headgear .

In my opinion its borderline unethical unless they are offering this to their patients for free or extremely cheap and offering their money back if theres no acceptable growth.

I know a woman that was like 6000 in debt with no results at all. Good thing they shut down and she got the debt wiped out.

Im quite sure all clinics have made their money back from the purchace of the machine so I think its time to put up or shut down.

Not only would I not go to a clinic that uses laser therapy I would also avoid that clinic for anything other service they provide.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

PGP,

Make no mistake about it. A licensed physician offering LLLT to their patients is unethical-whether they charge them for it or not. A doctor who offers LLLT "for free" is either woefully ignorant of physics and physiology or he is using it as a marketing tool. Usually the latter. Despite the huge gains made by the internet to expose unethical doctors and quack treatments, you can see we still have a long way to go.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Well I was hoping that the licensed physicians who are part of this network that offer this are more on the side of being woefully ignorant of physics and physiology then unethical.

 

The problem is there been SUBSTANTIAL time to show ANY benefits but so far in the last 3 years they have failed miserably

[thanatopsis_awry]

Now would be a very appropriate time for the docs who *do* support LLLT to express their reasoning; I respect Bill's effort to play Devil's Advocate and create an arena that shows both sides, but the silence on the part of the people themselves hawking LLLT is rather deafening.

 

LLLT and mondo-FUE are two most prevalent, prevailing farces; I sincerely hope that w/e docs *do* encourage the former, do it "pro bono".

 

My mother spent $600 on a LLLT device for me out of desperate empathy and the encouragement of a HT clinic....

 

Money aside, it isn't right to muddy already murky waters for people battling through a difficult affliction.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

PGP,

Actually, by admission of Mr. David Michaels, Founder and "inventor" of Hairmax laser combs, the "technology" has been in use at least since the 1980's when he underwent "laser" therapy in Australia.

 

So apparently even 20 years isn't enough to provide evidence of efficacy, much less 3.

 

Thana,

You bring up a very good point. Now I see that Bill may have been trying to keep the door open for the doctors themselves to defend and justify "treating" their patients with LLLT.

 

But silence from the LLLT camp has always been deafening hasn't it? When Dr. Alan Bauman was challenged on this forum to support the usefulness of these laser pointers he disappeared.

 

Instead of becoming transparent he ran from this and all forums where he could be held accountable. He also opened a brand new WING of his office complete with multiple laser machines to continue taking money from an uninformed and desperate public. I think he's still selling his own version of laser combs as well. This is one "collegue" I can do without. Shame on him and all doctors who fleece their patients with promises or intimations of cosmetically signficant hair growth from laser pointers. It's an abuse and misuse of the trust the public puts into licensed physicians.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Sounds like a semi talented scumbag to me.

Thana, LLLT devices make cool Christmas ornaments .

[Dr. Alan Feller]

PGP,

You might want to clarify who you are referring to in your last post.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Mr West wing ,not you doc .

[Dr. Alan Feller]

PGP,

I didn't think you were referring to me.

 

Now I see that you were referring to Dr. Alan Bauman. But let's not let this thread stoop to name calling and ad homonym attacks. Let's keep it above board and ask those doctors who offer LLLT to their patients to account for themselves.

 

Let's further ask those particular doctors that Bill interviewed for their take on how they justify offering this "therapy" to their patients when they themselves admit there is no demonstrable benefit from it.

 

Finally, I would like to know how "feeling" or "believing" LLLT works, in the COMPLETE absence of any prima facia evidence, is enough to continue offering it to the public.

 

The floor is yours gentlemen.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

You said his name not me

To me unethical and scumbag are the same.

All of this is not new as Im still waiting on proof that the chupcabra are real.

Dr Feller Ill make you deal .

If one of the docs come on here and prove us wrong Ill fly out to NY and clean your petri dishes on the house, and you have to wear a 08 support Obauman tshirt around.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

You won't have to fly out to NY, and I need not worry about wearing any T-shirts I don't want to because I KNOW LLLT doesn't work. The deck is stacked in my favor. Besides, Dr. Bauman and all the other LLLT doctors have had more than ample time to prove the validity of their claims. None has succeeded. Shame on them.

 

To my mind, if an HT doctor is successful performing HTs he should have neither the time nor inclination to resort to quack medicine to turn a buck. Insensitive? Perhaps. True? Definitely.

 

Let's keep the hair restoration field open, honest, and transparent- atleast on this site where honesty and truth stand a chance.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

I went on his site and there is not one pic of a laser patient unless Im mising something.

Just a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

Its ridiculous and your absolutly right shame on them and anyone else that still supports it.

These posts about lasers probably get old to people but alot of money is still being wasted on this stupid contraption

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr. Feller,

 

I am a firm believer that it is up to those who believe something works to prove it. You are speaking to one of the biggest skeptics in the world regarding treatments with very little or no public evidence available. So on this, we agree.

 

I am however, interested in keeping an open playing field (and an open mind) to allow this debate to continue. While I'm a firm believer of "proof" before personally recommending ANY product, I'm also not going to dismiss the professional opinion of ethical hair restoration physicians who claim to have successfully treated patients with it.

 

I highly doubt however, that Dr. Charles and Dr. Williams are currently aware of this thread. Shortly, I will send an email to both of them asking them to offer their professional input and join in this debate.

 

Dr. Feller, while I highly respect your opinion, I highly doubt calling the ethics of other well respected physicians into question is going to keep this debate professional. In my opinion, Dr. Charles and Dr. Williams deserve as much respect as you for the world class work they regularly perform on patients. I believe both surgeons are ethical and genuine about doing what's best for their patients.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dear Members,

 

I just sent an email to Dr. Williams and Dr. Charles requesting they share their professional opinion and experience with laser therapy on this thread. Though it is not required for them to do so, I do hope they'll indulge us and respond to this thread.

 

Like some of the discussion panel debates at the ISHRS conference, I think it will be fun to see a healthy debate between leading first-rate physicians on such a hot topic issue. Just like a boxing match, a little blood is expected and may be necessary. But let's make this a fair fight by keeping the gloves up and on the whole time

 

In the end, members and guests should draw their own conclusion and are more than welcome to offer their input on this thread.

 

As the referee of this debate, I officially declare this ROUND ONE!!!

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Bill I understand your position and respect your stance but even on those 3 docs websites there are I believe 3 pics.

Come on, I can find 3 pics with people that claim alien dung grew their hair back.

I highly doubt either one of those docs come on here and answer any questions ,and if they do no pics will be shown.

Scam Scam Scam I wish it werent though.

Those docs might be good at their craft but by now they have to know what they are offering is pure bunk.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I happen to think ANY doctor who offers quack remidies to their patients is unethical. If a person engages in repeated unethical acts like treating multiple patients with quack therapies, then that person is unethical and undeserving of the public's trust.

 

Either the doctors selling LLLT are unethical OR they are steadfastly ignorant of physics and physiology to an unforgivable degree. Either way, it doesn't speak well for them.

 

The doctors you cited in your article ADMITTED that they have no demonstrable evidence for their use of LLLT. The best they could offer, according to your article, is that they "FEEL" it works.

Yet they still offer it to patients.

 

Our job is to provide patients with procedures that provide demonstrable differences that are noticable to the untrained eye. In other words, if you can't see the difference in HONEST before/after pictures, then there is NO difference.

 

I look forward to the response of the doctors you contacted.

[Dewayne]

I don't know about Williams, but Dr. Charles looks to be in pretty good shape. If this were indeed "round 1" of a real boxing match, my money would be on him. But in a debate, Dr. Feller appears to be a very tough foe so I'd have to go with him on this one.

[thanatopsis_awry]

Ding, Ding...just don't let 'em rope-a-dope ya and gas out too early Dr. Feller!

 

**popcorn ready to be nuked and watch the bouts....