Banned from HLH...

[Jorge1977]

Farrel sure is a funny, angry little man. Anyhow, someone created a thread in the surgical section over at HLH trashing the mods of this site and the coalition doctors. I agreed with some and disagreed with the rest and pointed out how farrel suspended someone for questioning a certain "docs" HT on a 22 year old. I also posted that I felt HTN has much better people posting here.

 

Farrel immediately flew off the handle and went berzerk quickly banning me so that I cant respond to his meaningless drivel. Funny how he spins what I say and goes ape shit. In all seriousness, I think poor Farrel has a drinking problem which is not funny.

 

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=75361

[notgoing2gobald]

good. now you will spend more time here.

hey, I just noticed your in San Diego too.

have you had a ht? I haven't seen one in person yet.

if so, then lets meet up so I can get my grubby paws in your hair...

[Byehair]

dude, how can you say you were banned when you made this comment on that board

 

"Anyhow, I'm done here. Goodbye Farrel."

 

 

It looks like you did the banning yourself.

Give me a break!

[notgoing2gobald]

Hmmm..I just read most of that thread.

actually some very interesting points being made (not by Farell) but a few others.

 

 

Quote: B-Spot: "I think if a recommendation or inclusion into an exclusive club is forthcoming there should be a preponderance of evidence that lends credence to the decision."

 

---been staying up and watching reruns of Law & Order, have we?

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

That site is really lame these days.I hear hes been banning alot of guys lately from complaints from only Armani patients. He needs to go down with Armani if these super densepack Armani fue megasessions fail .

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Maybe he meant he was done with that topic.

Or he deleted his account before he could respond. Well anyway hes at the right place now

[Jorge1977]

"It looks like you did the banning yourself.

Give me a break!"

 

"dude", I tried to log back on to respond to Farrel and his outrageous BS spins, but I'm banned. That's what he does and what he's done to a lot of posters who stand up to him and his bully attitude. Go give yourself a break now.

 

"hey, I just noticed your in San Diego too.

have you had a ht? I haven't seen one in person yet.

if so, then lets meet up so I can get my grubby paws in your hair..."

 

Thank you for the kind words my friend. Yes, I'm in San Diego.

I've had 2 HT's. #1 I had 1500 FUE with Dr. Wolf in cinci, and #2 I had 2830 Grafts with Dr. Rahal in Ottawa on Oct 29th. It's still pretty early to judge, but once it grows out I will have no problem willing to meet up with you.

 

"He needs to go down with Armani if these super densepack Armani fue megasessions fail ."

 

Absolutely.

[Jorge1977]

Please Grow Please, thank you for the welcome as well. I appreciate being here and if I can help to contribute in anyway please let me know.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello everyone,

 

Jorge, you are certainly welcome to post here as we are happy to have you. But, let's not turn this thread into a Hair Loss Help or Farrel bashing session.

 

In my opinion, Farrel does a good job running his forum community. Nobody is perfect. Many will not agree with the decisions he makes. And it's obvious from the post on HLH that some don't agree with the decisions that I make. So be it!

 

The hair loss community should NOT be about "us" and "them" as it sometimes seems to be. I believe the Hair Transplant Network, Hair Loss Help, Hair Loss Talk, etc. are all valuable educational resources for balding men and women looking to restore their hair. I believe we should be working together, not against one another.

 

It saddens me however, to see such negativity against our efforts here at the Hair Transplant Network.

 

The Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians represents an elite group of quality hair transplant surgeons who have proven themselves to meet our high level of membership standards.

 

Does this mean that every Coalition physician is exactly the same and on the same exact level? Of course not! But every Coalition physician is personally visited and reviewed by Pat before acceptance can be warranted and only those that show evidence of impressive work on our forum and that has passed Pat's extensive review will be merit potential inclusion.

 

See also what Dr. Feller has to say about the Coaltion by clicking here.

 

Is there a fee to be included? Absolutely! Each physician in the Coalition and recommended pay a monthly fee to support our educational efforts.

 

But physicians are NOT recommended simply by paying us a fee.

 

People see only what's on the surface on these forums and sadly, many are blind even to that.

 

In the last month alone I have turned down 2 physicians who desperately desired recommendation on our network because they did not meet our criteria. Fees are not even discussed unless we feel they merit potential inclusion as was the case with both of these cases.

 

Additionally, physicians are immediately removed if they are found no longer to provide the quality of care that once led to their recommendation.

 

The message being conveyed by this forum community is NOT to BLINDLY trust the Coalition.

 

We ALWAYS encourage patients to do diligently research their options and select a physician based on a proven track record of results. Sadly however, many of these physicians are hidden gems as they do not often use the internet to promote their services by presenting their results. Pat and I will be continually working with our physicians, encouraging them to become more involved in our forum community by occasionally participating themselves, and encouraging their patients to post here.

 

As I become more involved in this community, I expect this year to be very revealing and helpful to all patients seeking to restore their hair.

 

Bill

[the B spot]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

Hmmm..I just read most of that thread.

actually some very interesting points being made (not by Farell) but a few others.

 

 

Quote: B-Spot: "I think if a recommendation or inclusion into an exclusive club is forthcoming there should be a preponderance of evidence that lends credence to the decision."

 

---been staying up and watching reruns of Law & Order, have we?

 

I don't think you will get that from Law and Order NG2.

 

It is however, my opinion, and nothing that hasn't been said many times over.

 

Perhaps it will effect some change or discussion of change.

 

I think a logical discourse is good-- I dislike calling names and resorting to rude comments--- but the fact is we have a long list of clinics that Pat has visited and provided first-hand evidence of the quality of work being done.

 

Then there is a long list of clinics that we have nothing but a few pics on---- my goal has always been to help people choose to proven docs-- no guesses, no gimmicks and certainly no chances.

 

I have always been a rather staunch supporter of the Coalition-- for quite a few years now, actually.

 

I have waffled and worried about the recommended list for quite some time--- nothing new there.

 

Anyway, the point is-- I am offering my opinion and hopefully it is constructive and thought provoking.

 

Take Care,

Jason

[notgoing2gobald]

A Few Good Men?...

[the B spot]

Originally posted by notgoing2gobald:

A Few Good Men?...

 

Damn-- you got me!!!!

 

I was thinking--"You can't handle the truth!!!"

(Nicholson)

 

[flyby]

Damn! It's 1:50 and I'm bored from spending the last 5 hours looking in the mirror watching my newly transplanted hairs from 12/5/07 not pop out of my cabeza. I want to be there for the birth of my newly purchased babies :-). So here's my 2 cents on this thread.

 

I've frequented both sites for about 5 months now and I am DEFINITELY drawn to this site because I find that Bill and most of the posters here are intelligent, educated, thoughtful, sometimes funny and truly are here in the best interest to educate themselves and help educate others. The other site (which I'm also glad is there) seems to contain posts that aren't quite as insightful, educational and many time are downright stupid. If I were to use an analogy between these two websites and two colleges it would be as follows. I would consider this site like Stanford and the other site like UCSD (San Diego). At Stanford you'll be recieving a very high level of education and intelligent, motivated students will gravitate there and help with your higher education, but they might not always be as fun to go party with. At UCSD you'll still be able to get a good education but not on the level of Stanford. You may however have more fun partying with lot's of hangovers.

 

I didn't feel like getting too into detail on the post from the thread discussed but on one point Farrel had, I would agree that bashing a patient multiple times who's put themselves out there and posted pictures of their results is not cool. Constructive and thoughtful critisism of the results should be provided.

 

As for this site, I appreciate Pat and Bill work and I think that they provid a great HT forum, but I also think you have MUCH MUCH more potential from both a hair transplant community education and business aspect while still providing an unbiased recommendation for only top HT doctors who have proven themselves and earned the right to be recommended. I say this as a succesful Internet entrepreneur. Unless Pat is independently wealthy and just wants to run this site out of the goodness of his heart he has every right to make a living and have a thriving business here while still providing a forum to help educate people about HT. I don't know the full business model details but I don't suspect Pat's getting rich from the fees the Coalition Docs do pay.

 

Keep up the good work all!

 

"Goodnight and Good luck"

[balody]

i frequent the main forums ie hlh,hlt aswell as shln(hell sometimes i even drop in on pb,s forum)because you will always find something interesting to do with hairloss on these sites.but in my mind this is still the only one worth joining for several reasons...pat,Bill,bspot,nervous,hairbank,jobi and others i have probably forgotten.in other words vets who have been there and got the t shirt and are willing to pass their experience on in a friendly and caring manner.you just dont get that same vibe from the other sites.keep it up fellas hairloss needs you!

[balody]

one reason for not joining hlh.

"james dean actually had a full head of hair lol"quote from deejayos aimed at Bill.

i take a look at deejays blog,no photos,no ht experience,no input just spite against someone who has hundreds of photos, a wealth of experience and lets not even start on input.dj stay put that forum needs you LOL.

[Al - Moderator]

Originally posted by flyby:

I would consider this site like Stanford and the other site like UCSD (San Diego). At Stanford you'll be recieving a very high level of education and intelligent, motivated students will gravitate there and help with your higher education, but they might not always be as fun to go party with. At UCSD you'll still be able to get a good education but not on the level of Stanford. You may however have more fun partying with lot's of hangovers.

 

Hmm... notgoing2gobald is from San Diego. He must have gone to UCSD. That would explain some things.

[Al - Moderator]

I have always been a rather staunch supporter of the Coalition-- for quite a few years now, actually.

 

I have waffled and worried about the recommended list for quite some time--- nothing new there.

 

I think some of the confusion may be because of the names.

The Coalition list of members pay to be listed.

Then there's a recommended list.

 

This sounds like we have sponsors (coalition) but here's who we actually recommend you go to (recommended list).

 

When you look at it as someone who doesn't spend a lot of time on this forum (or newbies) it's not hard to see why they would have the view that we put anyone into the coalition who pays. It also sounds like those Doctors are not who we really think are the best Doctors because the other list contains the "recommended" Doctors.

 

I think we should seriously consider changing the name of the recommended list to something else with some sort of a disclaimer that it is a 2nd best list if you are unable to have your HT done by an elite coalition Doctor.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I appreciate everyone's input on this thread.

 

However, I do not think that many people truly understand the true difference between recommended and Coalition physicians.

 

Copied directly from the following URL: http://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/Consult-a-Physicia...ation-physicians.asp

 

------------------

 

Each hair transplant physician RECOMMENDED on this site has been carefully reviewed based on the following criteria:

 

1. Show A demonstrated proficiency and commitment to performing high quality follicular unit hair transplantation.

 

2. Dedication to doing state of the art hair transplantation exclusively or at least as the main specialty of the clinic.

 

3. Excellent patient results demonstrating a high level of artistry and naturalness throughout, as well as excellent growth rates.

 

4. Reputation of the physician amongst colleagues and former patients.

 

5. Length of time the physician has been performing hair transplantation.

 

6. Medical training, depth of background, board certifications, honors, credentials, lectures, and published articles and books.

 

7. Value - as determined by quality and pricing taken together.

 

Members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physician are required to meet the following ADDITIONAL criteria:

 

1. A demonstrated capability to successfully perform large sessions of ultra refined follicular unit grafting using tiny incisions and grafts that are microscopically prepared.

 

2. The ability to dense pack tiny follicular unit grafts in a given area when appropriate.

 

3. Mastery and control of the orientation and direction of the transplanted grafts to achieve a completely natural appearance.

 

------------------

 

There are a number of physicians that are still comfortable with doing smaller sessions and believe that the use of chubby grafts (creating the need for larger incisions) is the best way to go. Those who perform quality standard follicular unit hair transplantation with high growth yields using this philosophy and technique still meet some of the criteria I have stated above. There are varying opinions on the different philosophies and personally, I don't think it's fair to say that large densely packed megasessions are the ONLY way to go. It IS however, my personal preference as I can accomplish my goals more quickly.

 

But in the end, it still comes down to the end result no matter how a physician gets there. Those who produce a quality END result merit inclusion in our community (recommended or Coalition).

 

Keep in mind that a lot the evaluation process is done behind the scenes based on detailed discussions, interview forms, gathering credentials, viewing patient and surgical pictures, etc. But the buck doesn't stop here!

 

Every physician candidate that is potential recommendation material is presented online for our patient members to review and add their thoughts and opinions.

 

This is not a "vote" per say where all members have to agree before they are recommended. But patient feedback is taken very seriously into consideration and we do NOT recommend physicians blindly.

 

Clearly we do NOT ask for you to trust us blindly and to do your due dilligence in researching all physicians you are considering.

 

But there IS a certain level of trust that is needed knowing that Pat and I will not recommend physicians who do poor quality work which would ruin the reputation of this educational community.

 

Furthermore, Pat personally visits and evaluate EVERY clinic before meriting inclusion into the Coalition to further ensure that they meet the criteria of the Coalition.

 

Additionally, it is stated on our website as on the link I've posted above:

 

"Important Note - The hair restoration physicians recommended on this site are not a definitive list of all excellent hair transplant doctors. Nor do we warranty or guaranty the results of any of the physicians presented on this site. As always, we encourage you to do your due diligence in evaluating these and all hair loss physicians"

 

We ENCOURAGE patient to thoroughly research the physicians they are considering. Education is the KEY purpose of our community.

 

Additionally, there is always concern about the financial aspect. It also says on our website:

 

"Those surgeons who are carefully reviewed and chosen for recommendation on this site contribute a monthly fee to co-sponsor this online community and display their before and after photos, videos and contact information."

 

Recommended and Coalition physicians alike pay a sponsorship fee to support our educational efforts which ultimately keeps this community running. This is not a secret. Every web community must be funded in some way.

 

But make no mistake about it. Physicians are NOT recommended or admitted into the Coalition based on the ability to pay. Some surgeons who have been removed or rejected from our community have attempted even to try to bring legal action against us for doing so because they recognize the extreme value being recommended on this site has to offer them.

 

But the integrity of this online community remains strong because we will not accept or retain those who do not meet our expectations and continue to grow.

 

Lack of Online Physician Visibility Does Not Equal Lack of Ability

 

Do NOT buy into the hype that the the physicians who discussed the most and that show the most readily available online patient results are the ONLY excellent physicians. Many physicians who have not yet used the internet to its full potential to promote themselves online are sadly falling behind in popularity while others are gaining all the glory!

 

A few goals of this online community

 

I will be getting more involved this year and one of my goals is to contact every sponsored physician which will help them learn more about us and will allow us to re-evaluate them.

 

Another one of my goals is to encourage our recommended and Coalition physicians to get more involved here themselves and to direct patients our way. This has been an ongoing issue that Pat has been dealing with for years. Please don't expect this to change overnight, but between Pat and I working hard on this, I expect slowly, more and more physicians and their patients will be contributing their hair transplant experiences and photos.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[the B spot]

I think the idea is that you can't have it both ways.

 

The actual Coalition stands for something---ALL of the factors listed. Both physician AND site owner agree to a standard of excellence and transparency.

 

Coalition Docs pay a fee once they are included. I have always felt this to be absolutely acceptable and COMPLETELY above board.

 

We also have detailed pics of actual visits by Pat, plus a decent amount of patient testimonials.

 

Dr. Gabel is perfect example of this--- I and many others were aware of the quality of work being done--Pat visits and visually sees the level of the work being done and can absolutely say that Dr. Gabel is a worth addition to the Coalition.

 

Not so with some recommended docs. Word of mouth, a few scattered photos, etc.... AND oh by the way they pay a fee as well.

 

I think that is were the message is being challenged or lost, IMHO.

 

We have seen work by Dr. Rose and Dr. Harris, etc...

 

But what about these other docs?

 

I read a thread where someone directed a prospective patient to see a recommended doc in the same city where a Coalition Doc with a great reputation practices.

 

I think that is wrong, IMO, and is worthy of criticism...especially in light of the idea that this site serves the people or the "little guy" and is supposed to move us toward the BEST options or help justify GOOD choices.

 

I am of the opinion that until a SPECIFIC time-line is established for recommended Docs to have met Coalition criteria and each of these docs are visited by Pat (Who is absolutely qualified to assess the level of quality at a clinic) then the recommended list should not be given any weight-- with the exception of the few docs who have proven themselves time and again. (Dr. Vogel is a perfect example of this---recommended doc, great repair, work is on par with very good docs, is now in the Coalition)

 

VERY good thread and topic,

Jason

[Bill - Seemiller]

Jason,

 

I believe that you are sharing your concerns because you deeply care for the growth and integrity of our online community.

 

I believe you have it completely right about what the Coalition stands for but are missing the mark of our recommended physicians.

 

Our recommended physicians give patients an option especially for those who refuse to or can't travel to see a Coalition doctor who may not be in the area.

 

I have already outlined the high standards of recommendation above for our recommended physicians and they are outlined on our website also. Sending a patient to a recommended physician will still increase the liklihood that they will receive a quality result. I say "increase the liklihood" because with ANY surgery, no matter in WHAT hands, there are risks.

 

Every physician recommended on this community must first show evidence of the quality of their work before they are considered for recommendation.

 

Before photos are presented online, Pat and I will first review patient and surgical photos, and learn in detail about their clinic and practices.

 

In most cases, by the time photos are presented online for review, Pat and I have a very good feeling that they merit potential recommendation in our community.

 

There are a number of our physicians (Coalition and Recommended) that do NOT regularly use the internet to present patient results. Though this is a shame in my opinion, it does not mean they do poor quality work. Coalition and recommended physicians alike are reviewed on an annual basis and those who cannot produce evidence of quality work at least privately are promptly removed from our network.

 

I recognize that is IDEAL that our patient community see photos from these physicians and their patients on a regular basis. Getting our physicians involved in our community has been a long battle that Pat has had to fight alone for a long time. With my help this year, we will at least be able to double our efforts.

 

Once again, nobody is being asked to trust blindly. Research is key to ensure a successful hair transplant experience.

 

In an open forum community, we invite conversation and scrutiny. I believe firmly in the integrity of this community and Pat and I will continue to work diligently and ethically to ensure that it stays that way.

 

Bill

[the B spot]

Bill-- I absolutely understand the reasoning behind the recommended docs.

 

As someone who is a fanatical researcher and information gatherer---it makes perfect sense.

 

I am not referencing myself or my personal perspective necessarily, but trying to take an outsider or uninformed position and it is there where I believe an issue exists.

 

It is not a question of integrity, but rather a question of growth and transparency as more and more people turn to sites like this one for help and support.

 

It is a fine line to walk--b/c our ultimate goal is a marriage of physician and patient that is correct; one that removes some of the risk or chance of error that pervades this industry.

 

My stance on this has never changed, in fact, my idea of slavishly supporting only one technique or approach has changed through speaking with Dr. Shapiro, reading and examining other work. Aside from ethics/proper protocol--physician skill is paramount, IMO.

 

Anyway, I am hopeful that this dialogue helps this community and this organization in the long run.

 

The idea of making everyone happy is ludicrous--but accepting and weighing contrary perspective is healthy and should be welcome.

 

I know this is an area where you shine Bill.

 

Take Care,

Jason

[Bill - Seemiller]

I have also posted a reply on Hair Loss Help at the following URL: http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?cati...id=75361&STARTPAGE=2

 

Bill

[NervousNelly]

This is a great discussion and ofcourse I have an opinion on the topic but I just want to say that I strongly agree with most of what Bspot has stated. I also want to reiterate what Bill said about not blindly trusting and doing a lot of research. We all need to be held accountable for our decisions so therefore educate yourself thoroughly prior to any serious decision.

[WeAreCured]

I've read through this thread and the thread in question on HLH, and I have to say that they can state that the owners of this board are unethical all they want for making money off of having a Coalition. The fact remains that the surgeons in the Coalition are top notch. Also, there are no comments on this forum stating they had poor results from any of the Coalition surgeons. The people arguing in the HLH thread seem to think that since they admit to their ad profiteering, it's OK that the surgeon they support is unethical. I can't see how they don't see the true meaning of the argument. Who cares how much money anyone makes? As long as you get the results you desire, what else matters? The surgeons on this site offer better, PROVEN results for a very affordable price. If the owners are making money from this site, good for them. They brought all of this information together and work very hard to give people better, proven knowledge concerning HTs. We benefit from them, the owners of this site benefit from the surgeons, and the surgeons benefit from us. Sounds perfectly cyclical and natural to me.

 

The bottom line with all of their whining and accusations lies in patient results. There's even a thread on this forum for patients to state if they regretted their decisions or HT in general and no one has stated they have. There is no evidence of anyone that I know of receiving poor work from any of the coalition surgeons. That's that.

[vincehair]

Let's be honest...both sites have their strengths and their weeknesses. If your just an average guy like me with no ties to a certain doctor or company you'd be a fool not to look at both on a regular basis.