Lennney

1 hour ago, Mr S said:

The more you read into it the more likely you will gets side effects imo. Your mind is the most powerful drug there is and you can easily create sides in your head if you suffer from anxiety. Take it with a positive outlook it wouldn’t be an approved drug if it was all true. Sure the sides are real but i belive that they are mainly from people worrying about the sides rather than the drug itself.

Speaking of placebo, I take fenugreek and tribulus as a precaution. My understanding is: yes it's a placebo potentially, but I am more confident due to:

1. Some action on my part to do as much as I can to address any side effects.

2. I ignore thoughts of doubt and quickly place my mind on anything else. I make an enormous effort to not think about it.

Having said that. Here is some anecdotal feedback:

I was shook this last week or so. My so wanted to do stuff, but my mind wasn't really in it, and then I panicked and ONLY thought bad thoughts about the ED. A minute later, even with a mind full of panic, everything worked, maybe 80% of maximum, but 80% of max is only noticable to myself. I'd say by this logic it would become noticable for others at 60% where there would be some loss in rigidity.

My point again is, do what you can, but try, as hard as it is, to not think about your dick working. You used to never think about it, don't start now. If you're still somewhat paranoid, take libido supplements AND don't think about it. Just consider it part of your HT/ your hair care routine. Don't think of it as a dick treatment.

I didn't have the experience you've had, but I hope I can help at least somewhat.

I've heard fin has a shed period somewhere between 2-5 months from various sources, but it sounds like you're much past that (you say 1.5 years). 

It's far out of my wheelhouse, but maybe a higher dose will help...? Again, I'm purely speculating.

I say the above because fin works by inhibiting DHT. The unlucky balding population has hair that is sensitive to DHT. It could be that enough DHT is getting through to the hairs to make them fall out with your current dosage. I've also just read an estimate which says fin blocks about 70% of DHT while dutasteride blocks about 90%. 

The hair on the sides and donor is not sensitive to DHT.

My current advice is to get a haircut which doesn't bring so much attention to your balding pattern. Even if it's not the Jason Statham buzz cut, reducing the "bulk" (use thinning shears/feathering scissors) will minimize the transition from healthy full hair to the balding area. Does that make sense? It's like you have trees next to a empty plot of land - where you want to make that more of plants or shrubs next to an empty plot of land. I would go 1-3 on the sides and 3-5 on the top, where there is a difference of two in the sides and top.

I honestly can't imagine loosing my hair at such a young age. I do feel for you. I have generic advice that's good for your life like: take care of your health (diet & exercise) and try to build confidence through success in professional life as well as hobbies and activities. See if you like rock climbing or something active. Confidence comes from success, not from looks. There are plenty of confident ugly people and plenty of attractive people with no confidence. Get some "wins" under your belt.

Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I'd definitely consider a HT. With your current aggressive progression, you will be a Norwood 7 in little time. The good news is you know your fate and can at least plan for it. You'll never have a full and thick head of hair - this is just a fact of life. Your best case is finding out what your donor is capable of. With this in mind, start visualizing what REASONABLE density & coverage you could achieve. Look for others, on this site and elsewhere who come from a similar Norwood progression. Age doesn't matter only their results. See what the successful ones aimed for, and the pitfalls of unsuccessful patients. You'd be looking basically at results of 4000+ to get coverage, maybe 3000+ if you chose to not address your crown (which I think may be fine without it, and many on here say they think it a futile endeavor due to growth & density factors). Consider using a doc who is good at BHT, since you want to use the "less valuable" body hair in the middle and the more precious donor for the hairline.

Best of luck. I genuinely hope it helps.

24 minutes ago, Jhonny said:

Thanks Lenney, you have been of great help with all your reccomendations!

Do you mean book on Mo-Wed or fly those days?

Can you link your post?

Cheers

Thanks, my goal is to help others. Booking your actual flights on Mon-wed (regardless of days you fly to and back). In my experience the most expensive days to actually fly are Friday and Sunday. You're more likely to find better deals using kayak or your preferred travel search engine feature of " +/- 3 days " for the lower cost flights.

Here is my post, it has pretty good info.

https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/54236-travel-advice-airfare-guide/

55 minutes ago, Jhonny said:

Hi everyone,

I made my choice to go with Dr. Demirsoy, booked on 02/09 this year. His patient advisor Muzaffer was extremely helpful and I got several extremely good feedbacks from former patients. So my Dr. it's him 100%!

I can't say the same for Bhatti, his way of communication was very very disappointing, it took me several emails to get a simple answer to my questions, everytime he replied he seemed annoyed and on top of that I saw few bad cases recently handled by the clinic even worse. Also i don't like the fact that this forum is packed with his promoters, I felt everything that is being said about him on here is slightly pumped up and pushed with youtube videos and comments from users that clearly work for him. Not to mention their location, not the easiest to reach.

I will keep you guys posted with a new thred of my procedure when time comes.

Thnk you all for your help.

Best of luck, a HT is a big decision. Cant wait to see your post about the travel experience and the HT itself. You will have a life altering procedure, and I'm very excited on your behalf. It's improved my life. If you have the time to shop tickets and are looking for good deals (check prices daily, but note prices Mon-wed as they are usually lowest) could you please assist my price compilation? I didn't pull any data from Australia to Turkey nor India. If you have the time, could you make notes of any prices on my forum post in "open topics"? 

Just for your benefit, check prices from both large Australian airports to Istanbul. It may save you a decent amount of money, depending on additional cost of getting to other airport.

Again, best of luck!

6 minutes ago, HLPToronto said:

I was talking about regular massaging with coconut oil " every single night" . results prove its miraculous in almost all of the cases. 

helps strengthening the roots, hair shaft and overall thickness. If Each hair becomes really thick, i think low # of grafts will give a much better look as compared high # of thin hairs on one's head. 

thickening each single hair should be our main goal. I think coconut oil helps tremendously with that. 

I will add soon to my routine but I was avoiding coconut oil until now ( 3 months ) as I never wanted it to get mixed up with minoxidil and dilute its impact.  fist 3 months, Minox is a must ( better to apply this only and no oils ) 

after 3 months,  i think Luke ( Cinik's success story on this forum) also applied heavy coconut oil and look at his result  

Funny you mention LukeyB. I just wrote a little about him. Yea I remember he had a near fetish with the coconut oil! His thorough documentation really helped me, and made me consider coconut oil, but his own bad acne reaffirmed my beliefs of the scalp not "breathing" and getting the pores clogged with the stuff. I may have to do more research about it. I also want to see more results of isolated coconut oil in the scalp (perhaps I should start looking if I want to see it! - I haven't looked into it.) without any medications or other supplements.

9 minutes ago, HLPToronto said:

Thanks again Lennney ! this helps to solidify my decision and I am going to try Kirkland minox ( with extra strength )  

if its cheaper in the long run, reliable and  equally or less/more effective  then i think its a good costco product and should be on walmart shelfs too but walmart only sells rogaine. 

I never knew any thing other than rogaine, also tugaine recently was introduced ( due  to darling buds clinic )

Regarding Biotin brand , let me know which one you select in the end. I am also doing some research on that.......

Will do. I don't know if I want to commit now or in two months... I am a hoarder, so it may be difficult for me to only have one or two months of medication.

5 hours ago, Shera said:

Hi Wheredoigo,

If you are thinking of going to Dr Cinik, then you should take a look at the thread below, it's a wonderful transformation.

You could private message the patient, he comes across as someone who will be more than happy to assist you.

I think LukeyB did a marvelous job of documentation and continues to provide great feedback to anyone who asks him for advice. Having said that, LukeyB himself acknowledges that his case may have been different than many others'. He says Cinik himself did a large portion (more than other members are seeing/experiencing), and thus his (wonderful!) case has an asterisk. If you read his post, you'll see comments like:

  Blaze99 said:

Interesting information. In that case why do people pay so much more just to go under the knife of an unknown technician? Isn't like buying a lottery? You can get a technician who is 5 years experienced or someone who started last week. No?

exactly, but usually, they are working in a group so it's not like the new technician works alone. plus, there is always the option of going with a dr that performs the whole operation himself like keser, but he charges 3.5euro per graft, it's 3-4times the amount of other clinics. if you have the money nobody would suggest you not to go there. for example for me 10k is a lot compared to 2k. I may have to go twice so I cant afford 20k.

the only thing that is important is to do your research and see as many result as you can. the only negative review I saw of this doctor was that,some guy said "people were coming in and out during operation and some of the technicians were using phone during the operation" but it was a few years ago and I'm assuming they saw the bad review and already took measures that this doesn't happen again.

they are very careful about bad reviews so I'm guessing they wouldn't want somebody bad mouthing them either after a bad surgery,therefore they would train their technicians very well. in this business, the reviews can end you.

look for as many before/after reviews as you can to see how they turned out and how was their experience, especially the ones that have journals like this thread. they wouldn't be fake because the patient writes his experience with pictures of himself.

I'm considering this dr as well, if I could afford to spend more money I would go with a dr that does it himself, but since I can't afford it, I'll just settle with the best one at my budget.

I don't have a well formed opinion on his clinic, but I did believe I saw several positive results come from there recently. Mrknid, superflash and especially donjamo considering he had comparatively few grafts placed for his advanced balding - but some may criticize density (I personally would love for his results if I had his original conditon.  Fespafer hasn't updated in nearly 2 months, but I hope all is well with him. With a review of recent cases, yes, I think Cinik's clinic is putting out great results of late. It should definitely be on your list. I wasn't sure before I typed this.

Minox is purely after showers. I've stopped putting it on religiously after the 3-4 month mark. I used it daily in the mornings to style my hair a lot easier (the stickiness acts like hair product). I now try to schedule my showers in the mornings to take advantage of the clean scalp. Some days I go 24+ hours without a shower, so sometimes it is less than once a day. Occasionally it is more, when I take two showers a day after a workout or something.

*I meant to say too that I used to do minox twice daily from month 1.5-3 or so. Scalp got too itchy with new growth and minox, so I curtailed to a single dose.

I don't use coconut oil. I have oily skin as it is, and the coconut oil (though I love coconuts) would fuck my scalp up with acne. I would consider a soak type of treatment where I would leave it in for a 4-8 hour term on the weekends when I don't have to leave the house, but a consistent and daily thing doesn't sound that appealing to me. Were you perhaps talking about ingesting coconut oil? If so, I have not tried that either.

54 minutes ago, CosmoKramer said:

Thanks for the kind comments! Much appreciated!

Im seeing hair thickening improvement but not really any more new growth popping out to be honest. A touch up in my crown and midscalp would be nice and a possibility.

I took Fin, sides were annoying but nothing to fear greatly and if you discontinue use things go back to normal.

Sometimes the timing for an HT isn’t right and that’s okay, when it is you’ll be confident in the process

Thats great that your only area of concern is your crown and that your loss has stabilized and you are proactive to protect your hair. I just started microneedling and minoxidil to see if things improve as well as added Nizoral once a week use.

1 hour ago, Qneedhair said:

The gift that keeps on giving!  Are you planning to get a touch up for the crown?  I hear guys saying fin will do well in this area but the thought of side effects scares me a bit.  

Just when you thought the growing was over and then new growth keeps popping out.  Amazing results even if the crown isn't quite perfect.  

I haven't had a hair transplant yet but I was going to have my crown filled in a couple years back but cancelled the appointment a month out.  I have a good head of hair, just a thin crown that concealer takes care of for the time being.  My crown isn't progressing but isn't gaining any ground either so I might have to get it done in the future.  Minoxidil w/carrier lotion, microneedling and Nizoral has kept hair loss at bay but no new growth.  

Good luck to both of you with the micro needling. I am curious to see if you both can replicate the results I've seen online. I think micro needling is tough. I've never done it, and don't have a reason to start yet. I am 5.5 months into my HT journey, but I can't imagine doing MN consistently enough. I don't really do anything for my hair outside of popping pills, but you both are putting REAL effort in. I say best of luck and keep it up! It's a long process with HTs, but at least we know what signs to look for as well as the milestones to look for them. MN is tough because I feel like the journey is unknown, and the results may not be clear. Again, best of luck and keep us posted!

2 minutes ago, Lennney said:

I am thinking of continuing approximately 5mg of biotin. I am a little nervous of taking 10mg, and I don't want to go below 2.5mg. I was originally going to wean myself off of tinfal by cutting in half for a month and quarters for another month. But now I think I will keep on it. I saw on amazon there is a good reviewed brand for 10mg, 240 capsules for like $12usd Nutricost brand. I've seen several members taking a 10mg dose, so I'm not too worried about it, but I still am not certain how my body will react. These are also the capsule pills, which means I cannot cut them if they are too much.

I have also recently read that .8mg or 800mcg is more than the required dose of Folic Acid for several preventative treatments. I know we've been consuming more, but I am confident at anything 800mcg and up. Nature's Bounty on amazon is 500 pills of 800mcg for $9 usd. I will have to google both brands to make sure there are no controversies or any quality issues associated, but I think the best method may be two pills to do the job. By this logic, with a sufficient dose for both biotin and FA will run me 22.53 delivered to my house. 22.53 for 240 days which comes out to $2.82 USD per month for both $2.15 per month, much less expensive than tinfal or even other combo pill alternatives. Perhaps slightly less if I purchase a double pack of biotin. I did bad math, made the FA twice as expensive as I should have.

 

People buy Rogaine for the same reason they buy Tylenol and Viagra - because they are the "name" for their respective segments. People "google" when they search, even if bing has a better image search feature. It is less scary to buy Rogaine than it is "minoxidil". It is less scary to buy Viagra or Cialis than it is "sildenafil citrate" or "taladafil". It makes people more comfortable, and easier to understand. If a first time user purchases the name brand and likes it, chances are they will not purchase the generic due to not knowing the ingredients or the availability of generics, or, fear of consequences and poor performance. Most of a drug's costs are R&D, and the drug itself costs pennies per dose. Through use of limited time patents, pharma companies get monopoly for their drug for 15+ years, and generics take over after - sometimes operating the very factory that leaves the segment or reduces it's footprint in that segment.

I think for Kirkland brand minox,  the combination of "Costco" (which has it's own pharmacy for it's customers), and "minoxidil" (which is the longest running hair treatment on the market for both men and women) are safe bets. Costco will continue to manufacture minox for the foreseeable future. It's just too popular a medication, and Costco is too reliable a distributor. 

Double posted. Don't know how it happened. Deleted this version.

6 hours ago, jonnyalex said:

Been using 10k Biotin for years. It 100% improves the actual quality and thickness of the individual hairs and makes it grow quicker. It does the exact same for nails. Just be careful if you are prone to acne. 

Since being on tinfal, I haven't had *too many issues with acne. I had a lot as a teen, but my adult skin does fairly well. Thanks for the 10mg perspective and the effects. Now, do you take any folic acid? Does your 10mg biotin include any? I did see a 10mg biotin and like 100+ (3+ month) version being sold on Amazon for like $10. I was just curious if I should supplement it with folic acid or if an an increased dose in biotin would "balance" the decrease in FA.

Truth be told, I've never put too much though into the thickness of my hair, but I like it as it is, and not just the HT hair. I do infact loose less hair when I dry my hair after showers. 

I'm just trying to pin the culprit of the improvement to biotin and/or FA. And the dosage... I know they're both vitamins which are water soluble (excess is peed). Again, thanks for 10k suggestion!

4 minutes ago, jj51702 said:

Good progress. One minor piece of advice which is not completely related, and you don’t have to follow, is I would grow out your sideburns a little. Your face is framed now and the addition of sideburns will make your face look more balanced imo. Look up some videos on YouTube where the ideal location of sideburns should be there’s a lot of info there.

 

btw disregard my message if you don’t have sideburns naturally 

I don't have side burns. I literally went back and looked at all my photos thinking, "do I really have sideburns"? Lol, no worries. Most of my pics with facial hair grown out is the longest my sideburns get. 

I appreciate the comment though. I do see how it would benefit my face.

Thanks Paddy. I kept the ruffled look for this one, and I'm excited for my update in two weeks. Thanks for following me on my journey!

I've also been researching a little on my own some alternatives to the tinfal. I will be running out in the next 3 months or so, and I wanted to know what either of you use for biotin + folic acid, if anything. The tinfal I have is 5mg of biotin and 5mg of folic acid. I am having a hard time finding such a large dose on Amazon. Some pills have 5000mcg (5mg) of one, but like 300mcg of the other. Should I suck it up and take two pills instead of my one?

I know Bhatti recommends biotin pills for the recovery period, but should I consider staying on them indefinitely?

Is it important to get 5mg and 5mg after 8 months, or should I look for a reduced dosage?

Thanks for any help! 

Here is my 165 day update! I woke up and didn't touch my hair after about 24 hours of no shower. I then went to gym and showered after. Red shirt is post shower, and I towel dried and air dried the remainder. My hair was fairly oily, and looks lighter after the shower.

1 hour ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

I do think you're affirming that, yes. None of the cases we're talking about has had a case of folliculitis. The para you've quoted starts off by saying that infections are rare too.

Your grammar is trash. That, or you don't read. There are two thoughts expressed: 1. Serious infections which occur in less than 1% (these are the horror stories of the scalp literally becoming a petri dish and 2. folliculitis - which is named sterile because they cannot pin the cause down to any one issue. Why are you like this? Can you please just take the L? 

2 hours ago, Nebulosity said:

By the way Lennny, below are two of the Bhatti cases I mentioned where the inplanted density was too low, and where either a repair was already done, or is being planned. Their low densities were not the result of low yield. Their grafts grew. Their transplants were just designed such that the density could not possibly be sufficient unfortunately. I found several other similar looking Bhatti cases on this very forum, but didn’t have time to chat with all of the victims to find out what they ended up doing. I guess most people don’t like hanging around on hair transplant forums. Go figure.

[1]

This patient is planning a repair procedure. 

 

[2]

This patient already had a repair done, but is not allowed to post results due to a legal disclaimer. I chat with him a while after the procedue and he said that things were going well and that his experience and results with the second doctor were much better. I’m very happy for him. He also posted an image of his shaved Bhatti donor area from right before his repair transplant, and it looked bad, and not in a diffuse pattern at all.

 

I appreciate this post. I've seen both posts in the past, but neither have a resolution, hence my statement of not seeing Bhatti's work corrected. I've not chatted with the legal disclaimer person, seems a little flimsy to not post anything. You* are the owner of the body and all cosmetic modifications, no artist or doctor can prevent you from displaying your body and the modifications. A doctor cannot censor his patient. Even with a NDA, it would never pass the legal threshold of a binding contract. Suspect, but I hope to see the results he posts eventually. Could you imagine a take-down order for someone displaying a bad tattoo? What a dystopia this would be.

35 minutes ago, Nebulosity said:

What I’ve understood is that H&W check out their patients and try to discourage them from going ahead with a procedure if there is any doubt that it will be successful, for whatever reason. They take into account physiological differences, and carefully design their extraction patterns and recipient areas to avoid walking their patients off a cliff. Dr. Bhatti seems to have the exact opposite strategy. Lets call it the “fast life” hair transplant surgeon strategy.

I think it is smart of a clinic to turn down patients. The patient may have a higher risk level, and it may not be worth associating your name with failure. Some of the highest if not the highest regarded surgeons practice this method of only selecting the best possible candidates and refusing all others. I agree that Bhatti doesn't operate this way possibly to his detriment. Bhatti does a lot of repair work, and I find that impressive and risky. I wouldn't want to try something someone else messed up for fear of a second failure. I think he may very well be too open to working on all who come to him. This is a genuine and possible criticism and concern. Maybe he should be more selective.

I think Bhatti doesn't prioritize money. If he did, he could certainly charge more, he has more name recognition than most if not all the Indian docs (similar to ASMED in Turkey - I only use this example for cost purposes, please don't take this as any deeper comparison ASMED charges more and does more volume, neither of which Bhatti is known for). Businesses differentiate themselves by certain strategies. Bhatti's strategy is lifelong service of a client. It's why I chose him; he is willing to serve a patient for their lifelong needs. It is appealing to me that he does BHT, since I think I will need more hair than my donor can provide later on in life. Some other strategies are volume economics and perceived greater quality. I mention this because nothing has supported a theory that he wants to collect money and do careless surgeries with abandon. He could do it more efficiently and for greater profit, yet he doesn't. That's my point.

6 hours ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

Let's take a look at some cases of chronic folliculitis  :  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5821164/

What Dr.Bhatti patient has recorded burning skin with large lumps of puss filled boils around the recipient area among the cases that we currently are looking at? These are medical conditions that can be and will be easily documented.

 

Figure 4 shows acute uneven discoloration of the scalp with pull filled lumps all around the recipient area. This looks typical shedding to you? It looks like a typical case of ignorance and dishonesty to me. Look above.

Nebulosity's case is a classic case of bad donor extraction. It doesn't matter if we look at it 10 years down the line, the pattern is horrid and can only be covered by growing out your hair. Are you even thinking while you type or am I just wasting my time with an idiot who simply refuses to see the truth? If @Nebulosity manages to paint the back of his head black you're the type of dude who is going to show up and say "Hey, that looks better than it did 6 months ago".

If you were speaking about the recipient area, it still looks bad for the 6 month mark.

I am attaching pictures (I can't believe I have to do this):

Very likely, given that he has been consistently fucking up his work over the past few months.

A failed procedure is a failure on the part of the doctor by default. If we're going to play this game of blaming the victim, there must be documented evidence post op about deviations or anomalies.

Did Dr.Bhatti document anomalies or complications immediately post op? Nope.

Did the patients experience severe cases of complications weeks or even months after the procedure? Nope. Their threads are active with loads of pictures.

I won't ask you to use logic here because you have already demonstrated that you are immune to it.

That isn't the #1 bullet point for FUE Complications. Chronic Folliculitis has been listed as a common complication in both FUE and FUT.

I've already established how that looks like in comparison to a normal procedure and none of the patients in question have had the same. Can you prove otherwise?

The #1 bullet point for FUE Complications is:

Donor-site depletion: Irrespective of whether scoring was performed by manual, motorized, or robotic punches, the risk of a clinically apparent depletion of hair from the donor region because of aggressive and nonuniform harvesting is observed. This may create an iatrogenic “moth-eaten” or “pseudo-syphilitic” appearance [Figure 2].^[7]

This is unfortunately what happened to @Nebulosity

The points listed show how an FUE surgeon could contribute to bad/growth during the procedure itself. I understand that this is the part that you want to conveniently skip because Dr.Bhatti is involved and proceed straight to the post-op complications to blame the patients here.

Unfortunately, none of the patients here have documented cases of any of those complications.

It is sad and pathetic to see you try blaming the victims.

If a Doctor could be lazy and careless during extraction, he could be lazy and careless during slit making or implantation too. When you show up for cosmetic treatment, you do not blame yourself by default.

In a nutshell, your argument is:

Good Result: "Oh Damn, Dr. Bhatti did a great Job".

Bad Result : "Lazy ass patients can't take care of themselves. Should've gotten his scalp conditioned checked. Poor Dr.Bhatti gets blamed for all his bad surgical outcomes, how unfair"

Nobody is talking about malpractice on Dr.Bhatti's part. Just that he didn't produce the results he promised some of his patients. Am I not allowed to call a spade a spade?

Plenty of cases of Dr.Bhatti's failed procedures all over the forum, completely documented upto the 10-12 month mark. I don't want to go digging and pasting them here as I do not have a vendetta against him. 

But when his reps and poster boy patients like you who show up and blame ONLY the patients (or rather victims), it is critical that they must be defended.

Here is a link to a guy who had what looks to be two failed HTs from recommended docs. 
https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/42780-cobblestoning-or-folliculitis-3-weeks-post-op-from-second-ht/

It seems he was prescribed medication, but clearly he has a propensity to get folliculitis. Two surgeons, so by your logic, still not his fault, but the surgeons'.

This will be probably the last time I address this:

>The #1 bullet point for FUE Complications is:

>Donor-site depletion: Irrespective of whether scoring was performed by manual, motorized, or robotic punches, the risk of a clinically >apparent depletion of hair from the donor region because of aggressive and nonuniform harvesting is observed. This may create an >iatrogenic “moth-eaten” or “pseudo-syphilitic” appearance [Figure 2].^[7]

>This is unfortunately what happened to @Nebulosity

****Sorry I guess it wasn't FUE, but recipient. My point still stands. I was always talking about the recipient hair because it is the relevant discussion of hairline.*****

The article is not even 3 pages long, and you fuck it up. Are you going to eat your words? Fuck. Your 1. Blatant lie, 2. Denial and 3. unwillingness to accept contradicting points to your ideas brings this conversation to an end for me. You lie about things that are easily disproven. You are a liar and you're wasting everyone's time.

I agree that nebulosity will have to grow out his donor. It doesn't look good, and that (the donor) is a purely doc related issue. The conversation was originally about op's head, and his growth. 

Occurred 8 months after surgery... Yet is not AT ALL the patient's fault. Right. I'm the idiot.

I never claimed that all failures are due to the patient, I only claimed that a doc, regardless of who he or she is, isn't the sole reason for a good or bad result. It comes down to my original thesis: Post-op care and patient physiology matter greatly for the success of a HT. If you argue with that point, all the journals state the same facts which support the thesis. I am done defending it. Research and studies don't sway your opinion, so I know I can't. I'm not that good.

As far as the bad patient's are lazy bit, I have stated that it comes down to physiology. Some people do sweat more (I honestly don't know if this is a controversial issue with you lol). Some people, wait for it, have hair that is weaker (due to physiology again, idk if you will argue this point) which will have less success outside the body and less success again after transplantation. 

I posted the links from the article you chose to not read. It's all here should you choose to suck it up and actually read the damn 3 pages.

Is this blaming the patient? In my eyes, no. In your eyes, definitely yes I wager. If calling a patient's biological characteristics a potential cause for poor results (as the NCBI states) then I guess I am. Your arguments are lazy with blaming everything on the doc. Your ability to omit information is remarkable. I marvel at the way you view the world. 

I appreciate being called a poster boy, I'll take whatever complements I can get. When you say I ONLY blame the patients, I never once blamed any patients here. Read my posts (you haven't so far lol). I asked questions if perhaps it could be physiology or the care. The hair grafts (outside of several concerns of density) looked normal post-op. There was nothing that would suggest "not deep enough" slits nor any other issues I could see.

Again, if you choose to fight against the established medical literature, I won't stop or argue with you. It's your battle to wage.

20 minutes ago, Nebulosity said:

I know you’re satisfied. I read your entire post. I just think that in hindsight you might not be satisfied with the result. I think you will look fantastic if you get a second transplant to improve the density. Yes, the shape of the temples look good, but I’m not sure about the angle of implantation. My temple point implants are going off at a totally different direction from the native hair around them. I think you should consider another doc and fill in for better density. Yes, you were balding before the transplant but I think a natural look is better than having an unnaturally thin frontal zone that is so low. You looked good and didn’t necessarily need a transplant.

Can we pump the brakes on a second transplant? I'm less than 6 months (exactly 5 months - 150 of 365 days) into my surgery which have a well documented 12-18 month maturation period. It is irresponsible to speak this way of a procedure. If I had braces (which I've had) and I was 5 months in, and had you tell me "well, you'll need a second braces set to finish what this braces set is doing" I'd think you're wild. Let the procedure work it's way in. I will judge the efficacy at 12 months, and again at 18 months. I won't be judging it at 5 months.

My hair was at about 60 degree angle, by this I mean, look at my side profile view. My temples were approaching the center-top of my head (which would be the 90 degree portion). I looked like a man in his 30s quite possibly 40s. I now pass as a college kid under 25. Again, I appreciate the complement, but I had a disconnect between how I felt and how I looked. I spoke about this in my posts. It is uncanny the feeling of seeing a stranger in the mirror.

20 minutes ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

When we speak about physiology, any case of a severe complication will have far reaching effects not limited to only the grafts not growing out.

What's your source? I named mine. If you want specifics, like you asked, speak in specifics. You can't use feelings in this discussion anymore.

22 minutes ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

Did you take a look at the patients in the study that had those complications? They need medical and cosmetic help. 

I did. Go back and look at figure 4. It is a textbook case of "I'm getting the early signs of growth" zits and typical shedding. The symptom is the same, but the effect is not.

32 minutes ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

I've been on this forum since a year and I'm yet to see someone facing such a severe case of folliculitis. A completely irrelevant quote when I'm clearly speaking in the context of @Nebulosity@Badresults@johanchicago and several other Bhatti Candidates. Who faced no such issues on their scalp, and yet were told that its their fault that the procedure failed.

Nebulosity has results that are improving daily. His 6 months is slower than many, but miles better than his earlier posts. Look back (I did) and tell me there is no improvement. We're talking about a guy who isn't at the 12 month mark, let alone the 18 month mark. Pump the brakes. 

Badresults did indeed have poor results. But I pose your question back to you. "We also know that @Badresults temples grew in, (perfect scalp), the top didn't. Case of point number 4?" Really, you really think that  Bhatti managed to get the punches perfect on both temples and fuck up the top. How likely is that? Surely there isn't a physiological reason (like we've seen with crowns that refuse implants) that is responsible? Use your logic for a second, just entertain the idea that a section (regardless of who implants) of a patient's head will reject the implant.

For Johanchicago I've already made my point on page 1 of (t)his post. He doesn't grow his hair out (personal choice, but his prerogative) and his results don't look impressive at 9 months. I do concede that he doesn't have incredible growth, but I will make my point 1. He doesn't allow himself to create the illusion of density with a near-buzz cut haircut and 2. He isn't done with his result. In my opinion, he wallows in despair. I bet my paycheck against yours that him growing his hair out for the next 4 months will look (quantitative and yet qualitative measurement) 5-10 years younger. I am still interested in seeing him grow his hair out, even if he isn't.

49 minutes ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

 

http://www.jcasonline.com/article.asp?issn=0974-2077;year=2018;volume=11;issue=4;spage=182;epage=189;aulast=Kerure

 

1. Donor-site depletion: Irrespective of whether scoring was performed by manual, motorized, or robotic punches, the risk of a clinically apparent depletion of hair from the donor region because of aggressive and nonuniform harvesting is observed. This may create an iatrogenic “moth-eaten” or “pseudo-syphilitic” appearance [Figure 2].^[7]
   
   
    
2. Pinpoint scaring: It is a misconception that FUE is a scarproof technique. The punch used to harvest each follicular grouping may create pinpoint white atrophic macules [Figure 3]. In the hands of a skilled surgeon, most of them are not visible to the human eye, and even if visible, they are far less noticeable than a linear scar of FUT for most patients. Nevertheless, patients should be informed about the possibility that these pinpoint white scars or hypopigmented macules may be visible on close inspection with short hair.^[7]
   
   This is more important in patients with skin color types 4–6, common in India, where hypopigmentation is more prevalent. It should be understood that FUE not just removes hair from the scalp but also removes melanocytes, and it is a well-established fact that hair follicles are the reservoir of epidermal melanocytes. Hence, particularly in aggressive FUE with large sessions, thousands of such hypopigmentation can be very apparent on shaving, thus negating the perceived benefit of a minimal scar by FUE.
   
   
    
3. Postoperative effluvium: A possibility of postoperative donor hair effluvium is reported, which can happen post-surgery [Figure 4]. The condition may appear after few days to few weeks of the surgery and show diffuse hair loss. It is mostly temporary and resolves within 3–4 months in most of the cases. The most common cause can be overharvesting and/or hampered blood supply.
   
   
    
4. Buried grafts: They can be seen most commonly when blunt punches are used. If punching is performed in hurry or proper alignment of punch along with hair follicles is not carried out, then the graft is pushed into the dermis leading to buried graft.
   
   
    
5. Overharvesting: It may lead to permanent damage of the donor area, thinning, and patchy hair loss [Figure 5]. Before starting the extraction process, safe donor area should be demarcated and overharvesting should be avoided. Hence, it is preferable not to exceed extraction of more than 1:4 follicular units.
   
   
    
6. Necrosis: Cutaneous necrosis after FUE is uncommon but has been reported in literature. Karaçal et al.^[8] have reported donor-site necrosis after hair restoration with FUE, leading to cicatricial alopecia.
   
   
    
7. Subdermal cysts: They present as multiple, slow-growing nodular, painless swellings in the scalp donor area. Lack of due diligence while performing FUE can lead to subluxation of the grafts into the subdermal layer of scalp. Over tumescence of the scalp donor area, use of blunt punches, and trying to “core” out the full-thickness grafts can all contribute to this.^[9] Hence, it is advisable to remove all grafts from the donor area.
   
   
    
8. Keloid: A thorough search of literature found two case reports of keloid or hypertrophic scar formation at donor site following FUE.^[10],[11]
   
   
    
9. Other rare complications: Lichen planopilaris has been reported after FUE as well as strip method possibly because of the precipitation of autoimmune reaction of transacted hairs.^[12],[13] Alopecia areata is another rare complication.^[14] Trichorrhexis nodosa too has been reported.^[15]

You didn't read your own material. You are a bad ambassador of truth. I don't know where to begin.

You literally skip the points which contradict you!!! You went out of your way to  copy-paste the wrong info. You are a deviant and you suck ass. I can't believe I gave up time from my day to refute this.

Did you not think I would see that the #1 bullet for FUE complications is: Chronic folliculitis,^[16] though uncommon, can be seen as a result of failure to maintain hygiene or because of some preexisting dermatological disorder. This is usually a foreign body reaction to poorly dissected hairs- damaged shafts – Pus is sterile. Aggressive treatment with topical and systemic antibiotics and daily cleansing with antibacterial shampoo are advocated to prevent cicatricial scarring.

Jesus Christ. You just found the first thing that mildly agrees with you and just pasted it, assuming no one would read it. Lazy research and lazy presentation.

You skip the relevant portion (the god damn recipient area) and paste donor-related issues. The points do not relate to this nor the previous cases (you could make an argument for nebulosity and donor, but you didn't). My point still stands that physiology is a large factor along with post op care. This is irrefutable by your article as well as mine. You and I don't know the care taken, and cannot speak with certainty either way. But one of us refuses to acknowledge the possibility of patient care.

1 hour ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

We now understand that @Nebulosity is a victim of complication Number 1. We also know that @Badresults temples grew in, (perfect scalp), the top didn't. Case of point number 4?.

I addressed Nebulosity above. I also addressed badresults temples. Again, do you not find it odd that the temples are fine, but not the hairline? Ask yourself objectively how it could be possible that a doc manages to mess only the hairline, and not the temples. 

Buried grafts: They can be seen most commonly when blunt punches are used. If punching is performed in hurry or proper alignment of punch along with hair follicles is not carried out, then the graft is pushed into the dermis leading to buried graft.

You seriously quote something and not use it? You think Bhatti messed up the alignment only on the hairline? You think Bhatti was "in a hurry" only on the hairline? Do you realize how dumb that sounds?

1 hour ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

I can speculate, but the truth is that anyone who blames the patient for the failure of a result without even a hint of evidence (for that particular case), is straight out being dishonest.

 

You can and do speculate. You speculate without a hint of evidence. How does that feel, turning the question around on you to defend? How do you know that Bhatti improperly placed the grafts? What evidence do you have that Bhatti messed the HT up? I am really curious. Please, elaborate.

Everything looks fine to me. I don't see a sign of malpractice on his part, where you on the other hand are referencing patients who don't completely document their recovery. You don't know these patients, nor their history. You also have not mentioned nor addressed my point of: if Bhatti messes up so many surgeries, why are there not an abundance of fixes of his work by other docs? 

If you're going to reference something, at least read what you reference. This is painful for me to put thought and reason into a point for you to casually ignore it. I feel like I'm wasting my time talking to a troll.

10 minutes ago, AltonMeyer2 said:

I think your transplant is good mate, I think @Nebulosity was only saying that it isn't a home run in terms of what you'd see from some of the other world class surgeons  - which I think to be fair, one could only say for sure once you've fully grown in.

Yeah but regardless @Melvin-Moderator somehow tries to imply that your result nullifies @johanchicago or @Nebulosity 's cases. That is strange. Hmm. Almost like someone has an agenda of sorts to protect the business interest of a particular clinic while throwing poor victims of bad HT under the bus.

Also, are there any papers that document or provide evidence that a patient's physiology could be one of the reasons for failure? I've seen this line thrown around so damn much, would be nice to see some studies around it.

I hope you grow well buddy! I'm glad your India trip turned out good for you!

This took me 3 minutes on google. It's just the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a US government scientific organization specializing in medicine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4212293/

"A complication is defined as an adverse event that is not considered to be a common or usual occurrence, and which requires a change in methodology. Complications may arise because of surgical procedure per se, because of surgeons planning and technical errors or because of patients' physiology or compliance errors.[1] Complications can occur both in the recipient as well as the donor site."

Go to link to see the figures.

"Postoperative edema [Figure 3] was the most frequent complication which was found in 31 (42.47%) patients. This was followed by sterile folliculitis [Figure 4] in the recipient area"

Folliculitis: 

Complications

Possible complications of folliculitis include:

• Recurrent or spreading infection
• Boils under the skin (furunculosis)
• Permanent skin damage, such as scarring or dark spots
• Destruction of hair follicles and permanent hair loss

Were your comments rhetoric or did you really not put any effort in research?

4 minutes ago, Nebulosity said:

It’s fair enough that you are satisfied with the results. I’m not accusing you of hiding anything. I just think that the density is not enough to look natural, based on the graft placement I saw in your post op pics, and in your more recent frontal pic. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the hair on the top of your head is going more forward than any other direction, and it’s hard to see from your frontal pic how the native and transplanted zones blend together. I hadn’t seen the overhead pic before. It seems evident from that pic that the density is probably quite insufficient. I am sorry for that, and sincerely wish you the best possible outcome. In your donor pics, your hair is pretty long, so it’s hard to discern much from them. Melvin used the phrase “home run” when discussing how your transplant was turning out. He brought up your case in this thread when he accused another forum member of being an undercover rep, as if your case proved that Dr. Bhatti produces excellent results. If he hadn’t brought your case up, I wouldn’t have said anything about it. Again, I wish you the best possible outcome. I very much regret ever trusting Dr. Bhatti, and think it is fair to comment on what I believe are poor results.

The very best of luck to you. I’m sure that if the results do not end up being satisfactory, you’ll fix it and you will look great. You looked fine before the transplant.

I don't think you read my post. You wouldn't have mentioned this last bit. I mentioned I was happy as-is. Am I typing for the benefit of myself? Are you reading any of this?

I can't help my hair falling forward, after a certain length, hair falls. I appreciate Melvin saying that, but there were others who said this earlier. I think such results are impressive at 5 months post op, don't you? Thank you for the complement of being fine before, but I was truly balding. I looked at minimum 5 years older (I got called 23. That was flattering). I picked Bhatti partially for the temple work. Temples are coming in nicely. 

I don't think you read any of my of my post

1 hour ago, HLPToronto said:

Lol   what a coincidence to find exact cap size from two different product manufacturers 

Trust me, I tried on a whim. I used the dropper for a month and did not like it. KEEP YOUR SPRAY TOP(s)!!!!

I did a cursory search and found this: https://www.groomingadepts.com/hair-loss/treatments/kirkland-minoxidil-vs-rogaine/

It is a investigation into the inactive ingredients, and is 2 years old. I will reiterate that Costco is probably one of the most ethical and consumer friendly companies in the world. People have also said that Grey Goose vodka is Kirkland brand vodka: https://rebelbartender.com/2011/07/14/review-kirkland-signature-vodka-or-is-it-or-is-it-not-grey-goose/

I don't have a Costco membership, but I love store brand generics and especially love Kirkland's signature.

Give it a shot! Most generics are made in the same place as the name brand, "Many generic brands are the exact same product as the name brand. They are even manufactured in the same facilities! The only difference is the generic brand is packaged differently." - https://www.onegoodthingbyjillee.com/generic-vs-name-brand-which-should-you-buy/

I can help explain the theory behind this fact if you're interested. It increases sales of the product (of the minox or the vodka or whatever) and yet preserves the "integrity" of the name brand by not cheapening it. Tide or Persil can continue to charge what they charge, and will make additional sales through the store brand generic detergent. This may be why there are common parts between the two minoxidil manufacturers. It is simpler to consolidate a supply chain to make a single uniform product to accommodate changes in demand rather than a variety of shapes and sizes which all have various manufacturing methods and manufacturers. 

I agree with @CosmoKramer , but it would be wild to see someone make a knockoff of a generic! That being said, the supplier for Amazon is Costco themselves. 

I don't work for Costco, but would mind it. I can definitely get behind this company. It's a company that isn't "grimy".

2 hours ago, Nebulosity said:

I do not think the density in @Lennney‘s transplant is high enough to match the hairline placement. He has only posted frontal pics with his hair forward. He has only posted pics of his donor at a length that would hide fairly significant irregularity or excessive loss. His results are not obviously terrible based on the pics he posted, but they’re pretty far from great, or even good. I mean no disrespect to him, and wish him the best outcome. But his transplant is no “home run.” I didn’t post in his thread out of respect. It’s his thread, and he deserves to post what he wants without negativity.\

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded comments. I've gone out of my way to ensure I was as unbiased as possible with my photos. I've kept the same camera, lighting, location, and angles and I have not used product nor medication in any of my photos. It is almost laughable how much of a meme you are. You push a specific agenda. With a preponderance of evidence to the contrary of your point, you persevere with your mission. I won't call my results anything but my results - precisely because they are my results and nothing more. I appreciate you keeping the negativity off of my thread. I've noticed a real decline of negativity when my results started to come in. Initially there were numerous comments of density being an issue. I can say that I am pleased with the density and I don't require others' opinion on what is acceptable density. My expectations have been met. Since my name has been slandered, it is only fair for me to provide the evidence against and for my case. Make of it what you will.

This is 2.0 months donor (post haircut), 2.5 and 4.5 (post haircut). I stopped taking pics of donor because I like the length of the last pic and there was no sizable difference in donor quality. It was entirely unnoticeable and not worth posting.

As far as the density, I don't push my hair forward outside of a single pic which I stated in my post (remember, I made a conscious effort to maintain comparability between photos😉.).

Those are Mar - June, each at a month mark. If you're interested, I will post an update tomorrow which will be my 5.5 - 165 day update. @Nebulosity really took the air out of me posting a 6 month collage I had planned. Even if my hair was finished growing at this point, I would still prefer this look to my prior one. 

I don't have a problem with you nor any of the other posters who criticize Bhatti. I think you should be able to post your results and have discussions about it. It is fair to say my HT success and your failure is not entirely due to the skill of the surgeon, but related to post op care and physiology. I think you will have a stronger case against Bhatti (and I'm sure you will agree) if you were to go to another surgeon and reap success with a fixer HT. I haven't seen (so far) any who have done so. I ask the casual observer: Are the critics bad HTs or bad HT candidates due to physiological or care issues? 

I've seen Bhatti fix several HTs. I haven't seen Bhatti's failed HTs fixed from other surgeons. He leaves much of the donor alone (your critique of "donor density"), so there should not be an issue with depleted donors. The case seems to be ripe against him, yet I've seen no evidence. If you show me a few cases, I'd gladly consider your views. 

I do believe your intentions are good. I appreciate this site because it changed my life. I can empathize with your scarring, and how you want to protect people from what you experienced. I show this site to people who want to change their lives. I think your claim needs support like any hypothesis: Show me members who have had a failed Bhatti HT who have gone on to have it fixed elsewhere.