My hair

[the B spot]

Yeah, it all seems to be relative---- size of head vs available donor vs. laxity.

 

In trying to make the best of all of this, I was thinking that those of us who have lost most of the hair on top, AT LEAST we can get large sessions because the area is wide open. If a guy has some decent laxity, decent donor, AND a great doc, they can really change the hand they were dealt. Look at Bobman, look at Bill (in a few months LOL). I will admit that these guys are on the other side of the spectrum, but for many of us, getting close to where they are at is going to change us drastically.

 

Just make sure you try your best to hit a home run first time out.

If not, hey 3 singles will usually get a run in. =)

 

Mark H, where are you getting Copper Peptide spray?

Thanks

[Robert_]

NIzoral 2% dries my hair out too. I just follow it with Nioxin shampoo and that tends to make it a little better, but doesn't completely put the moisture back in. I just know that on those days my hair will be a little straw-y.

 

I've used copper peptides in the form of American Crew's shampoo and conditioner before. I honestly didn't give it much of a shot. But I have my favorites as far as shampoo and conditioners go and to add yet another combo in the mix would be overkill. I am thinking of trying folligen's cream a shot sometime, if I get around to it, that is. I don't think copper peptides are junk science or snake oil at all, but I don't think that it's some kind of miracle cure. It certainly won't take the place of minoxidil or propecia, but used in conjunction with them I can see where it can possibly help a good bit.

 

-Robert

[Bill - Seemiller]

I posted a discussion about folligen and other copper peptides under the shampoo section earlier today hoping somebody could shed some more light on the subject. After doing some research, I've concluded similar to Robert...that it's definately not junk, but not a miracle cure. As I said to Mark H...I wouldn't use it as a stand alone, but combining it with Propecia and Minox can't hurt anything...maybe it will help, who knows? The only thing I don't like is that Folligen, for example, has a spray, a cream, a shampoo, a conditioner, and a lotion. I mean come on now...can't somebody come out with one ideal copper peptide solution? So if I was going to try it...do I have to try all of them or can I just try the shampoo? I wouldn't want to use the cream because it's probably thick and once my hair starts growing in, that will be a mess. But come now...which one REALLY is the best. And if you have to use all of them or even more than one of them to get good results...it doesn't seem worth it to me. It seems at that point it's more about marketing and sales than about a quality product that works. Any thoughts?

 

Bill

[Robert_]

I think that the multiple delivery systems are meant as a convenience, not as a system. Meaning that if you don't feel like using it as a shampoo, you can just use the cream. If you hate the cream, they have a spray. And so on. I definitely think using more than two of them would be overkill to the nth degree.

 

-Robert

[Bill - Seemiller]

Yes, good point. Unfortunately, it seems like it's not advertised very well...at least not that way. The website takes some time to describe each product and each one is explained slightly differently than the other. I'd personally opt for the shampoo perhaps if I was going to give it a try....if indeed that is enough. Maybe I'll email the company and ask what they have to say.

 

Bill

[Mark H]

Okay dokey,

 

Based on what I've read, and professional opinion I've sought out, I believe that a copper peptide solution applied daily will encourage faster hair growth.

 

I'm not sure I will continue it after my HT reaches maturity, but I do think it may augment Minoxidil and Propecia in encouraging early growth. Isn't that the toughest part about an HT?

 

As to which of the products to use, I'm feeling my way through this. Right now I use Folligen's Copper Peptide....lets just call it CP okay....shampoo and conditioner...two products that both have CP. 1 or 2 days a week I swap in Nizoral 1 per cent in its place.

 

What I've ordered now....hasn't arrived yet, is the Folligen CP spray. the goal is to apply it once a day in between Minoxidil applications...just past the 4 hour mark after first Minox application.

 

On most days then, I'll get two applications of CP.

 

I agree Folligen has a confusing line of products.

 

I don't know for sure what will happen, but I'd sprinkle on Miracle Gro if I thought it'd help.

 

mark

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hey Mark,

 

Thanks for the summation of what you use. I think I MIGHT try the shampoo and conditioner...but I think it just gets to be too much to try anything else. but if they both have CP in them...it might be worth a try. As you said and as I've seen...the research does look promising at least to speed up the growth of dormant hairs.

 

Bill

[Robert_]

Guys, I know I'm guilty of hikacking this thread too but let's get whynot's thread back on track and divert the CP talk down to this thread below.

 

Thanks,

 

-Robert

[Bill - Seemiller]

Good point. Sorry whynot! If we can be of further assistance...let us know!

 

Bill

[whynot]

No need to apologize. this is all good stuff relative to me and everyone reading this thread. Seems that alot of people have viewed it. Thanks agian for all your help. I am going to see DR true this week, I will let you know what he says.

If he is as good as you guys say i might have a new hair some day soon. lol .

Somebody discribed a HT as getting a tattoo , something that is with you forever and to make sure that is what you want. That scares me a little. Does anybody have regretts of getting one?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Whynot,

 

I can see why someone would compare it to a tatoo...though I'm not sure that's the best comparison. It is something you want to be sure of before you jump into it. You'll have to ask a lot of questions and answer them honestly. Getting a strip surgery means you will have a long linear scar most likely from ear to ear for the rest of your life. It will also mean you'll have more hair on top of your head...it won't be perfect or as thick as it was when you were in high school, but you know that. It's a matter of knowing all that goes into it. It's not an exact science but most of the time results are pretty good.

 

I know there are some people who have had regrets getting an HT...most of these people, however, chose a doctor that was not top notch. However, that's why I advise people to always be sure you really want it before you go into it. People who are on the fence should not get an HT. People on the fence shouldn't necessarily give up either...it just means that you need a little more time to become comfortable with the process. Being ready doesn't mean you won't experience anxiety of course...it just means you are aware and accept all the risks that come along with the process. Choosing a doc like Dr. True who is a coalition doc gives you a much better chance at getting the results you are after. Dr. True among all the other coalition docs have proven to be very successful and performing ultra refined follicular unit transplantation and have a number of satisfied patients.

 

One more thing...keep researching...feel free to look for people who have had bad experiences...but try to look at the bigger picture. People have good and bad experiences for different reasons. I have read a few people's writeups who said it was a bad experience but their before/after pictures were amazing. I've also seen people who were ecstatic by mediocre results. So you will need to judge for yourself what is good and what is bad.

 

I wish you luck and do keep us posted.

 

Bill

[MrJobi]

Hi Mark

 

Again, I would probably stick with the items proven to regrow hair , Minoxidil and Propecia.. Those are the only 2 ..

 

We could surely speak about the other 1000 items which have show some promise but then again , who has the time or money to sort it out..

 

I would love to hear other comment and experience about Copper

Peptides so we could get more real life feedback????

 

Cheers

JB

[Bill - Seemiller]

Mrjb,

 

So we are not guilty again of hijacking whynot's thread...Feel free to join us in our discussion here:

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/856...631035872#5631035872

 

Bill

[whynot]

So i went to True and Dorin yesterday. Dr true was in surgery and was going to be awhile so doctor dorin gave me a consulation.

 

Dr dorin gave me about 40mins of his time which was more than enough. He was a very professioanl, down to earth and honest. He suggest, like many of you to work on the front and shape my hair line and add alittle to the crown.

 

He suggested I get about 1200 in the front and 1000 in the bridge region top crown. He explained he didn't want to do any more then that because of possible shockloss of too many graphs and also to see how my existing hair holds. Wheather propecia helps maintain, slowdown or improve current hair loss. I hope to god these meds help me, its hard for me to tell i have had a shaved head for so long. But I have been monitoring my hair very closely and am happy to say i have not seen more then 1-2 tiny hairs , if that while shampooing or brushing come out. who knows what will happen! he also said i have average donor area and can support 4500- 5000 graphs.

 

So now i have yo figure out what to do? Wait and see what meds can do? I am class 5 could turn into a class 6 . Or maybe a calss 4a . or schedual an appointment. I honestly believe that the propecia will help me but i can't be sure maybe i should wait until i see some improvment or not. I have about 2 months to see if the meds are helping.

 

What would you do?

Has anybody had sugery with Dr. Dorin? Do him and Dr True have the same skills?

[Bill - Seemiller]

whynot,

 

Though I respect Dr. True and Dr. Dorin very much and I think they do excellent work, I'd do a couple other consultations if I were in your shoes. 2200 grafts for a first pass with your level of hairloss seems a bit conservative to me. Now I say that as a non-professional who has not seen your donor hair...but I'd also get an evaluation from a few other doctors to see what they say. Since physical consultations are not always possible, try doing some virtual consultations with other doctors in the area to see what they think. if you have the time (and money), fly out for in person consultations to other big names like Hasson or Wong, Cooley, Feller (he should be somewhat near you), Shapiro, etc.

 

Edit ----

 

I want to further add that I'm not saying Dr. Dorin is wrong in his assessment...only stating that it's a good idea to get a few opinions from other top docs in the world. Additionally, I did look at your donor area since I had forgotten what it looked like, and I can see what Dr. Dorin is talking about...it doesn't look to be extremely dense. I'd still do a few consultations if I were in your shoes.

 

That's my advice.

 

Bill

[Robert_]

Originally posted by whynot:

 

Has anybody had sugery with Dr. Dorin? Do him and Dr True have the same skills?

 

whynot,

 

I have seen both Dr. True and Dr. Dorin perform surgery. I feel that Dr. Dorin is an exceptional physician and I would have no trouble with having a procedure performed by him.

 

But Bill is correct. This is your head and your decision. We can only help you make a good decision, not make it for you. To tell you the truth, when you are selecting between physicians like Dr. True and Dr. Dorin and others that Bill listed you are selecting between "excellent" and "excellent." You are basically deciding between a Dodge Viper and a Corvette.

 

Here are a few examples of Dr. Dorin's patient photo albums I posted a while back. The first of which I was actually there for and witnessed:

 

Northern's Procedure with Dr. True and Dr. Dorin

 

 

9 Month Progression of 2,048 FUT by Dr. Robert Dorin

 

Pictures of 943 FUT performed on a female patient by Dr. Robert Dorin

 

1,525 FUT performed by Dr. Robert Dorin 10 days post-op

 

12 Day update* Photos of 3,974 FUT by True & Dorin Medical Group in NY

 

Hope this helps. Good luck with your decision!

 

-Robert

[L'Anonyme]

whynot,

 

I had a procedure of 1150 grafts w/ Dr. True about 6 months ago and so far things are coming in nicely. I agree w/ Robert's assessment of Dr. Dorin, and I've actually had more contact with him since he did the balance of my consultation while Dr. True was in surgery and has done all of my follow-up work, both on the phone and during in-office visits. His assessment of my donor was also very conservative, though when Dr. True examined it he estimated about 7000 grafts. It's hard to make sense of such discrepencies sometimes, but I think both doctors tend to underpromise and overdeliver. I'd also say after having studied many doctors and their approaches over the last year that True and Dorin have a slightly more conservative and piecemeal approach to restoration than some of the surgeons who maintain an aggressive presence on boards like this one. Since my loss was rather minimal, I expect to be pleased with this one procedure, and I'll need additonal ones to keep pace with any further loss should it happen. If I had had extensive loss, though, I'm not sure that a True/Dorin multiple surgery approach would be as attractive if I could do it all in one session. Obviously, different patients have different needs; see what Feller and a few other top doctors have to say about your situation.

[the B spot]

I cannot seem to load one of your photos whynot, but anyway.

 

I did a little photoshop on one of your pictures as far as placement

 

I will try to PM the photo to you.

 

Maybe you could post if for me to show what I am talking about.

 

I think you could benefit from a session of 3500+

IMO only, a nice frontal section back into the mid-scalp of 2000-2500 and another 1000 to 1500 or so behind that as far back as the doc can go. What will happen is the reappearance of a new, mature hairline tied into existing hair in that "bridge" that you are describing. Hopefully you would have some nice naturally occurring 3 or 4 hair grafts that can be inserted into your "bridge" to further optimize your session.

 

I would say that you could touch the top part of the crown a tad with a 1000 or so grafts. Not great coverage, but a good solid start for #2.

 

You hairloss is similar to mine, the difference being I had lost my mid-scalp and lateral humps for the most part before, so I will address them in #2.

 

Because of the small incisions and buzzing down before surgery, a world-class HT doc can minimize shockloss and reduce transection to a non-factor. In your case, I highly doubt increasing the density of your mid-scalp to around 35 to 45 fu's cm/2 will cause you much difficulty.

You have no real existing hairline, so a doc could go in a pack that as hard as he or she ethically can.

 

I tell you what, not to be an ass or anything, or besmirch Dr. Dorin, (who does quality work) send your photos to Matt Zupan at Shapiro Medical Group.

Just see what they say. He may say that Dr. Dorin is spot on, or they may feel that they can increase your session size.

If you get very similar estimates, then you know where you stand.

Otherwise compare and contrast and decide what is best FOR YOU.

 

Of course, this is all dependant on available donor, scalp laxity, meds, etc... but I think you need to explore a decent sized session for HT#1, especially to rebuild that frontal 1/3rd and add some density to your mid-scalp back into the crown.

 

Again, these are my opinions

I am not a doctor and many factors that are individualized to your specific physiology determine what can or can't be done.

Just don't shortchange yourself.

[whynot]

I added a picture to my album with areas that the Dr dorin suggested. I didn't know how to post this in my recent comment. do i make a new album? anyway

 

1000 graphs in the rear and 1200 in the front. The goal was to create a hair line that is as thick as the middle of the bridge, in the front in one session. then add a little to get to the top 1/2 of the crown. i think that would help, but i would like a little more. This photo is alot better then my others you can really see whats going on there.

 

other estimates were similar

3000 first session then 2000 down the road.

 

 

B spot- What are ways to limit shock loss?

what is transection?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hey whynot,

 

You can add as many pictures as you want in the same album...you just have to click "Edit Album". That might not be exactly what you are talking about...but let me know if you need specific help.

 

I see what you mean about that photo...it is more clear, at least for the front and middle what is needed. I think 2200 grafts is a good start, but again, it's nothing earth shattering. Putting 1000 grafts in the crown for that level of baldness is practically nothing. Take a look at my photos from my first surgery. 800 grafts were placed in the front half and 800 in the back half. Now it did make a difference, but again, it wasn't anything earth shattering. Being that we have similar hairloss patterns, my first surgery should give you a good indication of what you might look like after a 2200 session. Now Dr. Dorin is talking about 600 more grafts in the first session so that will be some mark of improvement over my first surgery...however, you get the idea.

 

I have become a believer over time that "more is better" if applied correctly and the situation of the patient warrants it. Some people may argue with me on this and I know others will support me. But for your case, I would go with a "more is better" philosophy assuming that the doctor can do it.

 

In regards to shockoss...the new ultra refined follicular unit transplantation used by top docs, including Dr. Dorin among others in itself will reduce the risk of shockloss, but it will not eliminate it. When people talk about shockloss, it can be further categorized into temporary and permanent shockloss. Permanent shockloss can occur either by transection of the hair follicle (which means that during surgery the doctor damages existing hair follicles by puncturing them or transecting them) - this honestly shouldn't happen and I'd be really surprised to hear any top docs transecting hair follicles. This CAN happen but typically only happens by untrained or unexperienced docs using older technology. Permanent shockloss can also occur to hair that is already miniaturizing because it's destined to die. If you lose that hair, it most likely will never come back after surgery. Keep in mind that this hair would eventually die anyway...but surgery does speed up the process and sends it to an early grave. Temporary shockloss can occur in patients after surgery due to trauma of the surgery. There seemingly is no pattern to this from what I understand. Some patients experience it, some don't...but this hair always grows back after some time. See my links below for the first two surgeries. Unfortunately, I'm a shockloss patient...I got it bad the first two and am expecting it for this one too (though I'm hoping not, but probably will happen). Unfortunately, there really is nothing you can do to limit shockloss since it's the trauma of the surgery that does it...it all depends on how your hair follicles react to the surgery. Of course, the skill of the doctor does come into play here...there are "ways" to minimize trauma by using smaller blades, doing smaller sessions rather than large megasessions, etc.

 

This is why in your case I'd still suggest a larger session if it can be pulled off. You virtually have no hair in the front and back...so nothing can be lost there. Go more conservative in the middle of your scalp to minimize shockloss of the existing hair.

 

Ok, I've written enough for now. I hope this helps!

 

Bill

[whynot]

Yes it helps. I believe that a little more would be better in my case . perhaps 3000 overall, 2000 in the front 1000 rear. I am going to another consultation this week with a Dr Bernstein in Fort Lee New Jersey. Anybody know anything about this doctor? I had read some info on him but havent seen maybe before and after photos of this forum. thanks for all the help

[Bill - Seemiller]

Do you mean Robert M. Bernstein, M.D., in NY who is part of the coalition? Otherwise, I'm not sure who you are referring to.

 

I don't like to try to "sell" any doctor, but my best advice is, stick to a coalition doc when researching. I don't want to sound hypocritical of course...my first doctor Dr. Katz is not part of the coalition and he does fine follicular unit transplantation. But being on the conservative side, his max size session is 1600 grafts which for some may be perfect, but ultimately is limited in today's world of hair transplants. Plus, since the coalition docs have already proven their techniques to become part of the coalition, at least you are not guessing. I'd stick to some of the big names if I were you. I would suggest, since you checked out Dr. True and Dorin in NY that you also check out Feller since he is close by. I would also do a couple online consults, try Hasson and Wong, Shapiro, etc as well. Online consults aren't as accurate but at least it might give you a general idea.

 

Bill

[UGLY MAN 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by whynot:

Yes it helps. I believe that a little more would be better in my case . perhaps 3000 overall, 2000 in the front 1000 rear. I am going to another consultation this week with a Dr Bernstein in Fort Lee New Jersey. Anybody know anything about this doctor? I had read some info on him but havent seen maybe before and after photos of this forum. thanks for all the help

 

You'll need at least 5000-6000 grafts. You can probably get it too if go to Dr. Hasson. Mind you, to get these sorts of numbers you'll have to have good laxity (scalp exercises!) and be willing to accept a longer than average scar (front of ear to front of other ear usually). If you stick around the forum long enough, you'll figure out that Dr. Hasson does the largest sessions. Since you want density, that's the first place I personally would look. The smaller sessions aren't a good idea for your case, IMO.

 

Good luck. Bernstein charges alot from what I hear.

[Salt-N-Peppa]

Dude, your hair looks exactly like mine pre-HT. I am quickly approaching the 6 month point post HT with 4944FU's. I am already scheduled for an additional 1500-2500 with Dr Hasson. Please check my previously posted photos. I expect to upload new photos within the week.

You might be able to gleem reasonable expectations from my photos. Bear in mind though that I am in my late 40's and you are still a young buck :-)

Good luck and please do lots of research. Cheers

[hairbank]

whynot,

 

In my opinion.......consult with several of the top Docs from the coalition members referenced ont his site. I would lean toward those who can handle session sizes of larger than 3000 grafts. If you're able to handle it (available grafts & financially), I think getting the most in one session will benefit you..........financially and asthetically. No need to go through this a second or third time if you don't have to. If I had it to do over again this is what I would have chosen.

 

I don't pretend to be an expert by any means............but I'll tell you this.........look at my blog, you've lost more hair than I had by the time I had my first HT. My goal was "decent" total coverage. To date, I've had two sessions as evidenced by my signature totaling around 5000 grafts and I have what I wanted, "decent" coverage all over. For you to have the same, I believe you'll need at least 6000-7000 grafts if you have them SAFELY available. Most Docs discount price after the first 2000 grafts so having more in one time will benefit you plus you go through surgery-healing-growth one time versus two or more.

 

This is all IF you have adequate safe donor hair and WITH a recomendation for this strategy by an excellent surgeon. These are just my ideas for you.................you have to make the decision you're comfortable with. If you're looking for anywhere close to decent coverage in front and back I just want you to be realistic in your assessment.

 

Hope this helps,