Dr Camacho - 2500 grafts

[GoliGoliGoli]

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Dear Community,

 

I have contacted @Bogota Hairlines who advised that they are speaking with the patient. They will respond to his concerns shortly.

I do want to chime in. They did the right thing by reinforcing the outer edges, clearly showing miniaturization. Usually, we have the opposite complaint. A patient will have surgery and later see a thinning area that should have been transplanted. This is the first time I've seen a complaint about a thinning area that has been transplanted. If you examine the pre-op photo, you see the bottom is thinning.

The problem with this example is that the angles are different. The left side is facing forward at eye level. The right side faces downward from an upward angle, so matching the lines doesn't work. Because tilting your head downward will expose the upper part of the crown more than facing forward will. 

When you compare these two photos, you can see the area outlined on the right is an area that is visibly thinning. Now, this isn't easy to detect because the hair is long. However, once you close up, you can see a lot of miniaturization. The common problem is that surgeons won't transplant this area, which leads to a visible gap as hair loss progresses. The so-called' donut hole' effect is one of the biggest problems with transplanting a crown at this stage. The only way to avoid this issue is to reinforce the outer edges that are miniaturizing. They did the right thing by reinforcing these edges. This will ensure the longevity of the hair transplant as you continue to lose more hair. 

 

Agreed that it's always better to implant into thinning regions so you're able to get long term satisfaction with the HT. No point protecting hairs that are already on theire way out.

My concerns were more in regards to the fact that it's claimed that a package was chosen where Dr Camacho was supposed to perform certain taskes, but ended up not entirely being the case. And also that it seems that the design stage for the hairline was fairly rushed. 

 

Will kindly await the clinics response. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by GoliGoliGoli

[mrthirsty]

Trying to be succinct here, yet hit all the points...

@mofo- I agree with pretty much all of Bobby's points.  I think being very clear, and communicating with the doctor is key.   The three questions outlined are probably exactly what I needed to ask and hammer on specifically, from the doctor, to be 100% comfortable.  

@Melvin- Moderator - Thank you for reaching out, and your perspective.  Though I agree the angles are tough to get right, I have more photos that still make me question some of the placement strategy (happy to post them when I have a moment to do edits)- granted I fully understand that all of these concerns might be in my head, as I have caveat multiple times in my posts, and concerns like mine could certainly be mitigated by 'direct from Doctor' feedback on the placement strategy and such.  From my perspective, and as constructive feedback for the clinic, I think having the doctor express his knowledge to the patient directly would alleviate patient concerns *much* more than having other people communicating their opinions on behalf of the doctor.  As far as I understand, I spoke with the marketing team at length while in the doctor's office.  Not a knock at all on the team over there, they have been very friendly from the start; but for a procedure of this nature (esp. cosmetic where you have some neuroticism at play) you want *all* of your information to be coming straight from the doctor versus someone else's opinion.  Suppose, the back of the scalp is in fact thinning and I hadn't personally noticed it, the the mid-scalp is also very clearly thinning and the argument could be made that the grafts should be prioritized there versus in the back, IMO.

@Bobby212- I think you got the questions exactly right, and I wish I would've gotten these crystal clear with the doctor before the operation.

In summary- this post is *not* meant to be the sounding of an alarm (since some people have mentioned their own concerns), simply my own, anecdotal, experience.  I am not a doctor, I don't understand the best strategy here for graft implantation, and thus why I posted here in the first place, to get some crowd-sourced opinions.  For anyone considering going to *any* clinic for a HT, I would take the three critical questions from Bobby and have them answered clearly (along with all of your other concerns).  I however do think that the advertising for roles/responsibilities (Camacho vs Pareja vs other) based on the package you choose should be clarified (given Dr Camacho wasn't there end-to-end for my procedure) and that the design portion of the procedure should be discussed with the patient to ensure understanding and satisfaction.  I still do trust that my outcome will be great and am very happy to post progress as it happens on here.

 

28 minutes ago, Bobby212 said:

Hey mofo, 

I think it's good that you're scheduled with Dr Pareja's package. Despite my issues with the clinic,  I can't complain at this point about the quality of work with my procedure. And Dr Pareja was certainly more active in my procedure than Dr Camacho.... she did the extractions and more than half of the implantation. I think you're in good hands.

A big regret of mine was not pushing for enough information during the planning phase. Asking these questions would likely have eliminated some of the issues I experienced:

• How did they arrive at the graft count?
• Are they assuming a certain grafts/cm2 density?
• What is the full implantation zone they have scoped out?
  • If they plan to extend grafts into an area that they can see is thinning - they should communicate that plan. Nobody wants a surprise when they see the results after the surgery is already done.
  • In my case: Dr Camacho only drew the front hairline - no backstop where grafts would become less dense or stop.

 

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Dear Community,

 

I have contacted @Bogota Hairlines who advised that they are speaking with the patient. They will respond to his concerns shortly.

I do want to chime in. They did the right thing by reinforcing the outer edges, clearly showing miniaturization. Usually, we have the opposite complaint. A patient will have surgery and later see a thinning area that should have been transplanted. This is the first time I've seen a complaint about a thinning area that has been transplanted. If you examine the pre-op photo, you see the bottom is thinning.

The problem with this example is that the angles are different. The left side is facing forward at eye level. The right side faces downward from an upward angle, so matching the lines doesn't work. Because tilting your head downward will expose the upper part of the crown more than facing forward will. 

When you compare these two photos, you can see the area outlined on the right is an area that is visibly thinning. Now, this isn't easy to detect because the hair is long. However, once you close up, you can see a lot of miniaturization. The common problem is that surgeons won't transplant this area, which leads to a visible gap as hair loss progresses. The so-called' donut hole' effect is one of the biggest problems with transplanting a crown at this stage. The only way to avoid this issue is to reinforce the outer edges that are miniaturizing. They did the right thing by reinforcing these edges. This will ensure the longevity of the hair transplant as you continue to lose more hair. 

 

 

1 hour ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Yep, was considering him for any 2nd HT I may get, but definitely having second thoughts now. 

 

11 hours ago, mofo said:

Hi guys, thanks for sharing all the info! 
 

im going in 3 weeks (April 4) for my surgery (Dr Pareja) This is def an anxiety producing event. I don’t think anyone gets this far without a lot of thought, research, and bit of gambling involved. But even with all the research etc, I’m still nervous. Every time I’m totally confident about have this done (procedure and clinic), little waves of anxiety and mild panic make me want to back out!!

thanks again and please keep us posted!!

 

[Melvin- Admin]

4 minutes ago, mrthirsty said:

 

@Melvin- Moderator - Thank you for reaching out, and your perspective.  Though I agree the angles are tough to get right, I have more photos that still make me question some of the placement strategy (happy to post them when I have a moment to do edits)- granted I fully understand that all of these concerns might be in my head, as I have caveat multiple times in my posts, and concerns like mine could certainly be mitigated by 'direct from Doctor' feedback on the placement strategy and such.  From my perspective, and as constructive feedback for the clinic, I think having the doctor express his knowledge to the patient directly would alleviate patient concerns *much* more than having other people communicating their opinions on behalf of the doctor.  As far as I understand, I spoke with the marketing team at length while in the doctor's office.  Not a knock at all on the team over there, they have been very friendly from the start; but for a procedure of this nature (esp. cosmetic where you have some neuroticism at play) you want *all* of your information to be coming straight from the doctor versus someone else's opinion.  Suppose, the back of the scalp is in fact thinning and I hadn't personally noticed it, the the mid-scalp is also very clearly thinning and the argument could be made that the grafts should be prioritized there versus in the back, IMO.

Based on your pre-op photos, transplanting the outer edges to compensate for future hair loss was the right approach. I would agree with your last statement if the initial plan were to restore your hairline. Then you would need grafts in the mid-scalp to ensure there would be no visible disconnect between the hairline and the mid-scalp as your hair loss progresses. In this case, the goal was to restore your crown, which was your main problem area. The clinic must ensure you don't have a donut hole in the future. This is when there is an island of hair with lateral and lower edges of the crown thinned out. 

 

Here are examples:

 

In my opinion, all clinics must reinforce susceptible areas to ensure there isn't a disconnect in the future. Now, I have asked them to address some of your other concerns. But I think the placement is actually spot on. There are a lot of cases here where clinics have missed thinning areas, and it does present a problem. Now, if you decide to restore the hairline, they will most certainly need to transplant the mid-scalp. 

Now, you might think, 'well, what if my hairline and mid-scalp start to thin? Then I'll only have my crown.' I would say that is why one-and-done hair transplants don't happen. Once you address the front, you'll eventually have to address the back and vice versa. Hopefully, you're on medication that would give you plenty of time before you eventually have to restore the front and mid-scalp. 

[mrthirsty]

I am unfortunately not taking any finasteride, as I was one of the lucky few that ended up developing breast tissue after about one year of taking finasteride.  On a tangent, I think most people don't realize Gynecomastia develops on a spectrum, from nearly non-noticeable all the way up to a full blown problem, *and* the progression is seemingly variable.  I had no pain, and over the course of 2 years realized I was slowly growing tits.  I also believe that the incidence of gynecomastia is way undercounted, given it can easily be confused with gaining weight and sometimes very slight in nature. 

...but that is an entire, gripping, thriller that I will save for another blog post.

I am derma-rolling, using minoxidil religiously, and LLLT (not to be confused with LLM).

Edited March 20, 2023 by mrthirsty

[Melvin- Admin]

3 hours ago, mrthirsty said:

I am unfortunately not taking any finasteride, as I was one of the lucky few that ended up developing breast tissue after about one year of taking finasteride.  On a tangent, I think most people don't realize Gynecomastia develops on a spectrum, from nearly non-noticeable all the way up to a full blown problem, *and* the progression is seemingly variable.  I had no pain, and over the course of 2 years realized I was slowly growing tits.  I also believe that the incidence of gynecomastia is way undercounted, given it can easily be confused with gaining weight and sometimes very slight nature. 

...but that is an entire, gripping, thriller that I will save for another blog post.

I am derma-rolling, using minoxidil religiously, and LLLT (not to be confused with LLM).

Have you considered topical dutasteride? I was also one of the unfortunate ones to get all of the negative side effects. I’m now currently on Xyon’s topical dutasteride formula for a little over a month with no sides. Definitely consider a topical formula. 

[mrthirsty]

5 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Have you considered topical dutasteride? I was also one of the unfortunate ones to get all of the negative side effects. I’m now currently on Xyon’s topical dutasteride formula for a little over a month with no sides. Definitely consider a topical formula. 

I switched to topical finasteride for 3-6 months before I finally stopped finasteride all together.  I am unsure if I want to play with systemic hormone modification, even if Xyon purports to be liposomal with minimal absorption.  Unless there are large scale studies, I think I have been sufficiently turned off to the idea of 5-a reductase mods after my gyno experience.  I had been getitng my hormones checked pre/during/post finasteride (even topical) and noticed that even a 3x/week topical finasteride dose was raising my prolactin and throwing off my test/est ratios.

I am however betting some of my hope on GT-20029 being approved (and maybe Clascoterone) in the near future and being my saving grace...

[Melvin- Admin]

1 hour ago, mrthirsty said:

I switched to topical finasteride for 3-6 months before I finally stopped finasteride all together.  I am unsure if I want to play with systemic hormone modification, even if Xyon purports to be liposomal with minimal absorption.  Unless there are large scale studies, I think I have been sufficiently turned off to the idea of 5-a reductase mods after my gyno experience.  I had been getitng my hormones checked pre/during/post finasteride (even topical) and noticed that even a 3x/week topical finasteride dose was raising my prolactin and throwing off my test/est ratios.

I am however betting some of my hope on GT-20029 being approved (and maybe Clascoterone) in the near future and being my saving grace...

That makes sense, clascoterone is available through CB-03-01. I think minoxidil max sells it.

[EHZ]

I always went to bogota hairlines . And almost did not get the hair transplant . 
They were trying to rush with blood work and forms without Dr. Camacho being there . I was firm and told them I would not be signing anything or doing anything until he got there . They tried to send me a new doctor who’s name is  Dr. Carrenza. I was quoted from pictures sent in 2000-2400 grafts which made no sense because mwamba and diep. Quoted me 1200-1500 grafts. Once Dr Camacho was there I asked him questions, if he was going to perform every part of the surgery and if he and  Pareja would be working together. He was hesitant to answer and Johnny one of the patient representatives stated I was mistaken and that either Camacho or pareja would be the main surgeon along with Dr. Carrenza. I believe a lot of us have went with Camacho because of the recommendation page and what they put on the flyer with the options that are stated. It also saids they do 1-2 surgeries max but it was three of us which is something they should tell you because in videos they say they just do 1 max 2 if the second one is a small surgery .  I asked questions like  what the density per squared centimeter he uses , how he implant grafts , what type of graft goes in the front of the hairline , does he use a tool to look at the donor or he just randomly extracts which he saids yes it’s random to extract to  have a better homogenous in the back. I also asked punch size , who makes premade slits and according to him he does the pre made  slits it based on scalp elasticity. He said because my scalp is soft he was not going to use pre-made slits and just do DHI implantation which I believed pre made slits are better with the combination of inplanter pen  but he showed me through a mirror and convinced me it should be fine. I told him where I wanted my hairline to be and to not touch any place where I have ok density because I strongly believe with finestride   and minoxidil it will be nice and dense  . He measured  the right and left corner of the scalp where I had extreme loss  with a tape measure with the number of 50cm^2 and came out with the number 1200-1300 grafts but said 1500 to have good density. He said he didn’t know if he wanted to perform the surgery on me because I didn’t seem sure but I told him I want a hair transplant but I want to make sure we are on the same page and I trust you can provide good results not just get as much money based on grafts. So I asked him if the can guarantee me he would be the main doctor part of the surgery from extraction , to implantation , and surgical design then I would want to do it. He said he would do it . Going in I could say he kept his word and was there for every step and did everything . Dr . Carrenza was there and I believe she extracted some grafts which was slightly done bad but not enough to be completely upset . You can see where Camacho extracted and where Carrenza did. But overall 7/10 for extractions. I don’t know if camcho wound have stayed  if I wasn’t firm about my goals and what  I expected from him based on what people have been saying lately .  I also told him I read about him from hair restoration Network and seen him with the interview with @Melvin- Moderator. But at the end he took out 1596 which was more than I wanted or expected but at the end just hope for the best . I asked him again mid procedure why he does not  make pre made slits and he said in a nice way if I wanted to have pre made slits and then insert with dhi pen he could do that for me , but I told him I’m trusting  him and if he strongly believes it’s unnecessary step for me than I was ok with it . he did put some grafts like 20-30 grafts in places where there was hair but because it wasn’t a lot  I wasn’t too upset  . I’m 8 days post op and healing fairly well and at this point hoping the results look good in 9-12 months . 

1. Extraction size .9mm-.95mm depending on hair texture. 

2. Holding solution - saline 

3 . premade slits are not a strict protocol for all patients.  the Dr decides if they are going to make premade slits  or not and then DHI pen used . 
 

4. Carrenza was only there to help with extractions but the majority of the surgery was performed by Dr Camacho. 

5. all doctors and technicians use magnifying glasses to see grafts 

6. Dr Camacho implanted grafts straight for DHI pen and manipulated pen in different directions so that hair grafts can have proper direction which I appreciated he showed me because I’m was not 100 percent confident that one could get good directions of the grafts if pre made slits were  not done. 
 

7. also he like to Saram wrap the head and I told him to please don’t do that because I wanted the grafts to breathe and not in any way be dislodged  . 
 

8. Now it’s just about waiting for the results and hoping for the best . I do recommend whoever gets there to ask questions and make sure they know what you expect because you are the patient and paying for a specific service. 

9. I do have a little regret because of anxiety of not leaving extremely confident how many other people have there experience and interaction with the doctor but I do believe it was a job well done even though I do believe it was very fast procedure . Maybe from beginning to end like 4-5 hours compared to what I read about other people . Well hopefully it was not a huge mistake and I will get the results and density desired . 

[mrthirsty]

7 hours ago, EHZ said:

I always went to bogota hairlines . And almost did not get the hair transplant . 
They were trying to rush with blood work and forms without Dr. Camacho being there . I was firm and told them I would not be signing anything or doing anything until he got there . They tried to send me a new doctor who’s name is  Dr. Carrenza. I was quoted from pictures sent in 2000-2400 grafts which made no sense because mwamba and diep. Quoted me 1200-1500 grafts. Once Dr Camacho was there I asked him questions, if he was going to perform every part of the surgery and if he and  Pareja would be working together. He was hesitant to answer and Johnny one of the patient representatives stated I was mistaken and that either Camacho or pareja would be the main surgeon along with Dr. Carrenza. I believe a lot of us have went with Camacho because of the recommendation page and what they put on the flyer with the options that are stated. It also saids they do 1-2 surgeries max but it was three of us which is something they should tell you because in videos they say they just do 1 max 2 if the second one is a small surgery .  I asked questions like  what the density per squared centimeter he uses , how he implant grafts , what type of graft goes in the front of the hairline , does he use a tool to look at the donor or he just randomly extracts which he saids yes it’s random to extract to  have a better homogenous in the back. I also asked punch size , who makes premade slits and according to him he does the pre made  slits it based on scalp elasticity. He said because my scalp is soft he was not going to use pre-made slits and just do DHI implantation which I believed pre made slits are better with the combination of inplanter pen  but he showed me through a mirror and convinced me it should be fine. I told him where I wanted my hairline to be and to not touch any place where I have ok density because I strongly believe with finestride   and minoxidil it will be nice and dense  . He measured  the right and left corner of the scalp where I had extreme loss  with a tape measure with the number of 50cm^2 and came out with the number 1200-1300 grafts but said 1500 to have good density. He said he didn’t know if he wanted to perform the surgery on me because I didn’t seem sure but I told him I want a hair transplant but I want to make sure we are on the same page and I trust you can provide good results not just get as much money based on grafts. So I asked him if the can guarantee me he would be the main doctor part of the surgery from extraction , to implantation , and surgical design then I would want to do it. He said he would do it . Going in I could say he kept his word and was there for every step and did everything . Dr . Carrenza was there and I believe she extracted some grafts which was slightly done bad but not enough to be completely upset . You can see where Camacho extracted and where Carrenza did. But overall 7/10 for extractions. I don’t know if camcho wound have stayed  if I wasn’t firm about my goals and what  I expected from him based on what people have been saying lately .  I also told him I read about him from hair restoration Network and seen him with the interview with @Melvin- Moderator. But at the end he took out 1596 which was more than I wanted or expected but at the end just hope for the best . I asked him again mid procedure why he does not  make pre made slits and he said in a nice way if I wanted to have pre made slits and then insert with dhi pen he could do that for me , but I told him I’m trusting  him and if he strongly believes it’s unnecessary step for me than I was ok with it . he did put some grafts like 20-30 grafts in places where there was hair but because it wasn’t a lot  I wasn’t too upset  . I’m 8 days post op and healing fairly well and at this point hoping the results look good in 9-12 months . 

1. Extraction size .9mm-.95mm depending on hair texture. 

2. Holding solution - saline 

3 . premade slits are not a strict protocol for all patients.  the Dr decides if they are going to make premade slits  or not and then DHI pen used . 
 

4. Carrenza was only there to help with extractions but the majority of the surgery was performed by Dr Camacho. 

5. all doctors and technicians use magnifying glasses to see grafts 

6. Dr Camacho implanted grafts straight for DHI pen and manipulated pen in different directions so that hair grafts can have proper direction which I appreciated he showed me because I’m was not 100 percent confident that one could get good directions of the grafts if pre made slits were  not done. 
 

7. also he like to Saram wrap the head and I told him to please don’t do that because I wanted the grafts to breathe and not in any way be dislodged  . 
 

8. Now it’s just about waiting for the results and hoping for the best . I do recommend whoever gets there to ask questions and make sure they know what you expect because you are the patient and paying for a specific service. 

9. I do have a little regret because of anxiety of not leaving extremely confident how many other people have there experience and interaction with the doctor but I do believe it was a job well done even though I do believe it was very fast procedure . Maybe from beginning to end like 4-5 hours compared to what I read about other people . Well hopefully it was not a huge mistake and I will get the results and density desired . 

I wish I were as thorough as you were with both my questions and demands.  When I was there, there were also three surgeries happening while I was in the office, so I think maybe they do slightly discount how many ops they do per day (or the third bed/room is *very* new and marketing materials have not been updated).  And, I agree that the (maybe) most distressing thing is that Dr. Camacho (for my surgery) was not there end-to-end as advertised, I would guess probably 100% of my extractions and maybe 20%-30% of my implanted grafts were done by a doctor other than Dr. Camacho.  I have been however re-assured several times by the doctor that the result will be great, and have generally trusted all the recommendations on this forum of Dr. Camacho and his work.

I am now second guessing the amount of grafts since I was also quoted by a couple surgeons in the range of 1500, but Dr. Camacho suggested 2500.

For the record, the clinic did reach out to me based on @Melvin- Moderator message (and my own) , but when I discussed hair placement their answer at least over text was and has been generally-  'It will be ok.' (paraphrasing)

 

[mrthirsty]

Im reading through their FAQ on their website right now, which probably should be updated... but two things:

1) In the FAQ they say one surgery per day, this should be updated

2) We were told by our customer service person to have HIV tests done before we arrive, so we rushed orders for like $100 / pop before the flight out.  They ended up testing us on-site so this probably wasn't necessary, and according to the FAQ, seems like it is not necessary.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by mrthirsty

[GoliGoliGoli]

Hair transplant clinics be honest and transparent challenge: Impossible. 

I'm exaggerating of course as their are good clinics out there, but it's shameful how few and far between they are. 

[Bobby212]

13 hours ago, EHZ said:

I was quoted from pictures sent in 2000-2400 grafts which made no sense because mwamba and diep. Quoted me 1200-1500 grafts. Once Dr Camacho was there I asked him questions, if he was going to perform every part of the surgery and if he and  Pareja would be working together. He was hesitant to answer and Johnny one of the patient representatives stated I was mistaken and that either Camacho or pareja would be the main surgeon along with Dr. Carrenza. I believe a lot of us have went with Camacho because of the recommendation page and what they put on the flyer with the options that are stated.

 

13 hours ago, EHZ said:

I asked questions like  what the density per squared centimeter he uses , how he implant grafts , what type of graft goes in the front of the hairline , does he use a tool to look at the donor or he just randomly extracts which he saids yes it’s random to extract to  have a better homogenous in the back. I also asked punch size , who makes premade slits and according to him he does the pre made  slits it based on scalp elasticity. He said because my scalp is soft he was not going to use pre-made slits and just do DHI implantation which I believed pre made slits are better with the combination of inplanter pen  but he showed me through a mirror and convinced me it should be fine. I told him where I wanted my hairline to be and to not touch any place where I have ok density because I strongly believe with finestride   and minoxidil it will be nice and dense  . He measured  the right and left corner of the scalp where I had extreme loss  with a tape measure with the number of 50cm^2 and came out with the number 1200-1300 grafts but said 1500 to have good density.

Seems like it's the clinic's practice is to try to overstate grafts to maximize their revenue. The 3,000 grafts that I was told I needed.... which surprisingly was the marketing guy (Johnny) who said 3,000 were needed, followed by Dr Camacho agreeing.....was significantly higher than the estimates I got from Doctors Bicer, Nader, Turan, and Gur.

Everyone that goes to Bogota Hairlines should follow EHZ's lead.

I'm interested in what the clinic told @Melvin- Moderator about how they advertise that Dr Camacho does extractions in his more expensive package, yet he doesn't... unless I guess if you confront them about it prior to surgery, like EHZ.

When I asked why Dr Camacho did not perform a single extraction, despite the materials they provided AND Dr Camacho's own words in the podcast interview with Melvin, here was their response:
 

[EHZ]

9 hours ago, mrthirsty said:

I wish I were as thorough as you were with both my questions and demands.  When I was there, there were also three surgeries happening while I was in the office, so I think maybe they do slightly discount how many ops they do per day (or the third bed/room is *very* new and marketing materials have not been updated).  And, I agree that the (maybe) most distressing thing is that Dr. Camacho (for my surgery) was not there end-to-end as advertised, I would guess probably 100% of my extractions and maybe 20%-30% of my implanted grafts were done by a doctor other than Dr. Camacho.  I have been however re-assured several times by the doctor that the result will be great, and have generally trusted all the recommendations on this forum of Dr. Camacho and his work.

I am now second guessing the amount of grafts since I was also quoted by a couple surgeons in the range of 1500, but Dr. Camacho suggested 2500.

For the record, the clinic did reach out to me based on @Melvin- Moderator message (and my own) , but when I discussed hair placement their answer at least over text was and has been generally-  'It will be ok.' (paraphrasing)

 

Yeah . I believe that a huge difference and I also believe if I wasn’t so firm they would probably would have extracted 2000 or more grafts . And for me I wanted a conservative approach and hairline due to the potential risk of the transplant did not work or I need a 2nd transplant in the future . 
I do wish now I went with Shapiro or konior as I seen great things about them . Also konior associate looks good but at the end it is what it is . I had an appointment with dr mwamba last November but because his associate sole the clinic I was not able to go with mwamba . They did offer me to go to Belgium which they stated the would cover 50 percent of the airline ticket and provide free housing but such a long trip was something I didn’t want to do . It’s sucks because I was researching since November 2021 but wanted a hair transplant since 2020 and part of me didn’t want to wait another 6-12 months depending on the waitlist for elite doctors . 

[EHZ]

9 hours ago, mrthirsty said:

Im reading through their FAQ on their website right now, which probably should be updated... but two things:

1) In the FAQ they say one surgery per day, this should be updated

2) We were told by our customer service person to have HIV tests done before we arrive, so we rushed orders for like $100 / pop before the flight out.  They ended up testing us on-site so this probably wasn't necessary, and according to the FAQ, seems like it is not necessary.

 

Yes they did the same thing to me which  wasn’t a problem but for another patient I was talking to he was told the test was not necessary because they do a rapid test online . 

[EHZ]

I made my own thread with some images of mine. I wouldn’t mind showing you my before and after only if @mrthirsty is ok with me posting on his thread he created. 

[EHZ]

I also feel like the procedure length was very quick and I wonder if that god or bad . Are they being careful and detailed or just rushing through it . It feels they just want to start at 8 and end before 3or 4 so people can go home which worries me now. but we will see part of me wishes I waited and just look for a elite doctor in the states. It is what it is. Happy growing everyone !!! 

[Melvin- Admin]

In my opinion, you both are casting judgement on a procedure that hasn’t even started to grow. I understand there are concerns, but I think its a good idea let the results do the talking. As for going to an elite surgeon in the states. The cost would be double to triple the cost you paid, and there’s no guarantee it would be any better. You guys trusted them enough to book surgery, now trust the process. There’s really nothing else you can do at this point anyway. You’re gonna drive yourself mad second guessing the minutiae. 

 

[EHZ]

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

In my opinion, you both are casting judgement on a procedure that hasn’t even started to grow. I understand there are concerns, but I think its a good idea let the results do the talking. As for going to an elite surgeon in the states. The cost would be double to triple the cost you paid, and there’s no guarantee it would be any better. You guys trusted them enough to book surgery, now trust the process. There’s really nothing else you can do at this point anyway. You’re gonna drive yourself mad second guessing the minutiae. 

 

You are  right we just have to wait , but I’m just saying if a surgeon or a team is asked directly how do they work and you get there and it is different it just makes you second guess things especially when everyone here wants the best possible outcomes. Happy growing everyone and hopefully we get the best results . I know everyone on this page is on the same goal !! 

[mrthirsty]

2 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

In my opinion, you both are casting judgement on a procedure that hasn’t even started to grow. I understand there are concerns, but I think its a good idea let the results do the talking. As for going to an elite surgeon in the states. The cost would be double to triple the cost you paid, and there’s no guarantee it would be any better. You guys trusted them enough to book surgery, now trust the process. There’s really nothing else you can do at this point anyway. You’re gonna drive yourself mad second guessing the minutiae. 

 

I, and I think the others that have chimed in, don’t necessarily think negatively about anything of the surgeon’s skill, per se, but I do think there is a consensus of the clinic’s operations and communication (at least on this thread) being at least a little concerning / needing improvement.

[CharlesBarkley]

I think everything looks good. Sometimes doctors think a little bit about the future of their patients' hair and I think that is what Dr. Camacho has done using that extra grafts in that area. I would just be patient and see how all looks around month 6.

[Bogota Hairlines]

Dear members of the community and Bogota Hairlines patients

We took the time to review this thread and some of the concerns thoroughly. We want to address and clarify some of the issues.
Before we individually address each participant or concern, we would like to give the community a summary of our approach at Bogota Hairlines.

Dr. Camacho has been performing hair transplant surgeries for nearly 20 years (2004) and has a proven track record (Final Results) which is presented both in our platform and organically on other platforms like this patient-based community, closed online groups, and social media, all by patients who shared their monthly progress up to 12-months. Those final results, presented over a long period, eventually led Dr. Camacho to be endorsed by the Hair Transplant Network and established him to be in line with the elite doctors of this network which, to our understanding, is a significant factor in many patients' research.

We do our best to communicate effectively with our patients before and after surgery. However, we know miscommunications can occur. We take full accountability and will make sure to improve in that aspect. We see this as a learning opportunity for everyone, so we would like to thank everyone here that has presented constructive criticisms so we can improve.

To prevent miscommunication, which can be very frustrating, especially to people who come out of Colombia, we have all of our remote consultations documented in writing (mainly WhatsApp), where we lay out a suggested treatment plan and answer in detail every question a patient presents. Some details like exact graft count, hair per square centimeter, and hairline design are complex and sometimes only possible to determine accurately by seeing a patient in person.

Therefore, we always state beforehand that the final decision will be made only after a hands-on evaluation at the clinic. This is implemented as a disclaimer in the invoice each patient receives before committing, to ensure we thoroughly advise patients that virtual estimates are only approximated and are subject to change in person. We apologize if this still misunderstood. We encourage prospective patients who base their decision on a virtual consultation to ask as many questions as needed and only commit if they can trust Dr. Camacho and the Bogota Hairlines team. This will minimize the physiological challenge and potential buyer's remorse that patients occasionally experience shortly after surgery.

We want to clarify that Johnny from the clinic is not just a "marketing guy." Johnny is a senior team member and serves as a head consultant to the doctor. He consults most of our patients throughout the surgery process and has done so for many years. While Doctor Camacho values his input, Dr. Camacho decides how to execute a surgical plan.

@mrthirsty  graft count strategy, there were a lot of comments made by members, including @Melvin- Moderator, which reinforce what we told you both at the clinic and via WhatsApp. When we execute a surgical plan, we ensure that our plan will look good today and for years to come.

We can't provide an exact percentage of who does what and the percentages of each doctor's time in every step. Still, we can tell you Dr. Camacho was physically involved in each step, including the extractions at different points. The other doctor involved in the extraction and implantation was Dr. Pareja, who is involved in every procedure at our clinic.

We want to clarify some points. Three patients were not receiving surgery at the same time. Patients come daily for head washes post-surgery, PRP treatments, and SMP in one of the three available rooms. We perform 1-2 surgeries per day (1 per doctor).

Regarding the HIV/Hep test, yes, we do our rapid test at the clinic according to surgery protocol. Still, we ask our patients to come prepared in advance to avoid any inconvenience when they arrive at the clinic.

@Bobby212

We understand you were surprised with the number of grafts evaluated for you and didn't think it was justified.

We estimated that you required between 2600-3000 grafts during our initial planning. As previously stated, we implement a disclaimer to advise our patients that estimates are subject to change upon physical examination. Unfortunately, sometimes this may not be as clear as we hope.

A conservative hairline was drawn upon physical examination, which required 2,600 grafts. However, you requested a revision to the initial hairline, which required more grafts. Those revisions require more grafts, bringing it to the higher range of the written quote you got in advance. We are saddened that Dr. Camacho's ethics have been questioned. We aim to provide patients with optimal results, and the patient's goals and objectives may require more grafts. Money has nothing to do with this.

There were comments about placing grafts in areas with full density. We must transplant grafts in transitionary zones to ensure the results look good for years to come. These areas are vulnerable and susceptible to thinning. If we do not address these areas, there will be a visible disconnect in the future, which would fall directly on us. Be assured we do this for the benefit of our patients.

As a general rule, Dr. Camacho is involved in every stage of the surgery, including the extraction, to some extent. Sometimes more and sometimes less. It's a case-by-case and on-site decision. In your case, the number of grafts was large, and Dr. Pareja's extractions were exceptional. Dr. Camacho decided to preserve his energy for the implantation. Again we are going to clarify it better in the future. The implantation was done as stated by both doctors. No surgery in our clinic is done by one surgeon alone. Surgeons lead specific packages, but the team is always involved in every step.

We want to add that your surgery is noted to us as one of the most exciting ones we have had, and we are looking forward to seeing your final requests. We expect it to be incredible and hope you can share it here.

@EHZ, thanks for your feedback

We also understand after seeing a vast majority of good reviews on Dr. Camacho and then reading this post only a few days before surgery made you feel nervous and second doubt your decision.

All of this was considered after you sat in length with the doctor before surgery, and he advised you only to do the surgery if you're confident in our ability. If someone is not entirely confident with this decision, we don't want them to do it.

We gave you time to decide and offered to refund your deposit. Your final decision was to go through with the surgery.

We appreciate how detailed you laid out the surgery process as you experienced it, including the equipment used and the entire process.

We appreciate the honest and open discussion. This will help future patients that have questions about the process. We are confident that both of you will be satisfied by the end of 12 months. But even if you are not, rest assured that we will stand by our work and support you however we can.

Dr. Camacho and the Bogota Hairlines Team

[-TheHairUpThere-]

Your experience was very much in line with mine. I paid extra for Dr Camacho to do everything but Dr.carranza did the majority of the work. There was also very little design beforehand. But Dr Camacho was actually there for the extraction and implantation. But they were seeing another patient that day and I believe he kept going back and forth. He probably did about 30-40% of the implantation and extraction. I was going to say something but I assumed this is just his protocol. And didn't wanna mess with the routine. 

He also left near the end of the implantation. So Dr carranza did the final 800 grafts in my midscalp. So a little worried about that although she was very nice and seemed very capable. And the side of my head that she extracted healed fantastically. Even better than the side Dr Camacho did. So I have no doubt she is very skilled. Their entire staff was very professional and kind. And communication has been been amazing from day 1. No complaints there. But just now waiting for the results. I plan on getting another ht next year so can't say for sure if I would return. That will probably exhaust all my donor and would probably like to go to a clinic with a little more pre surgery detail. But my donor and recipient area both healed great. Almost shockingly great. All redness was completely gone by 2 weeks. So I'm hopeful it'll turn out well. All in all I think their whole team is top class and they all treated me with great care and respect. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by -TheHairUpThere-

[-TheHairUpThere-]

Any updates so far?

[mrthirsty]

13 minutes ago, -TheHairUpThere- said:

Any updates so far?

So far, so good, to be honest. Albeit a very slow grow in process and seemingly tons of shock loss.  From what it looks like the hair pattern is pretty natural - so the doc did a good job there, still thin but I assume it will get more dense now over the next couple months.  Happy to share more photos soon.

AFAIK, shock loss affects not only implanted hair, but non-implanted hair as well... and unsure if its shock loss or otherwise, but it looks like while the crown is growing in, the mid/front scalp is beginning to thin

[-TheHairUpThere-]

9 hours ago, mrthirsty said:

So far, so good, to be honest. Albeit a very slow grow in process and seemingly tons of shock loss.  From what it looks like the hair pattern is pretty natural - so the doc did a good job there, still thin but I assume it will get more dense now over the next couple months.  Happy to share more photos soon.

AFAIK, shock loss affects not only implanted hair, but non-implanted hair as well... and unsure if its shock loss or otherwise, but it looks like while the crown is growing in, the mid/front scalp is beginning to thin

Yea I'm at 5.5 months now with Dr Camacho. Also had some shock loss. But around 4 months is when things really started turning around. Most of my native hairs grew back and it keeps getting better every week. So you should be seeing huge progress over the next 3-4 months.