Finasteride/Dutasteride Side Affects - Can they go away or affect us later?

[NARMAK]

So a lot of people who are first researching whether to take Finasteride or potentially it's more potent brethren Dutasteride tend to almost immediately zone in on "Side Affects" and as very many of you will know from personal experience it has probably put you off using the medication sometimes until many years later till you became more desperate and then tried it, but had failed to save the hair you could have had you started earlier but didn't due to fear mongering.

Now, whenever i see questions on side affects, there's a few points i want to raise:

1) You are changing your bodies reliance on DHT functions by inhibition. In the short term your body may react with "side affects" such as lower libido etc. but as your body adjusts to the lower DHT, it may start regaining some balance. 

2) As we age, our bodies can over time change and that's why things begin to affect us whilst still taking medication like Finasteride. 

Personally i have been on Dutasteride for more than 12 months now and my own experience was that for i would say up to 3 months, my body had to rebalance itself as i took 0.5mg everyday. At first i had some brain fog, lowered libido and less instances of morning timber. However, as my body adjusted, it began to regain closer to what it was and i do think this is why it's important for most people if not alp to start off Finasteride with adjusted dosing to help level their body out and adjust. Not just see these side affects initially which could abate and think they're permanent. 

Trying to regain hair is like skating up hill. Keeping what you had is marginally easier and being slightly pro-active is the best way. 

[BaldDude]

The clinical studies state that most people’s side effects decrease after 6 months. Still there are many on reddit that claim to be on meds for 10+ years and their sexual sides have not decreased. 

[NARMAK]

2 hours ago, BaldBobby said:

The clinical studies state that most people’s side effects decrease after 6 months. Still there are many on reddit that claim to be on meds for 10+ years and their sexual sides have not decreased. 

Somebody else on this forum mentioned how if we basically take "side affects" to basically include lower libido etc. which people accept as "normal" or within a tolerance level, then the incidence rate increases of side affects. However, i would rather deal with a slightly lower libido and loss of random boners as long as things perform in the moment and it's not complete ED. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

The implication here is that after time the side effects going away is a good thing. But have you considered the possibility that it's the opposite and the side effects going away is actually a bad thing? I'm not saying it is or isn't, but your assumption that the side effects going away with time might not be the correct one. 

[ciaus]

@NARMAKlet the guys that are

-actually struggling with the decision to start medication

-experiencing possible side effect symptoms

-or even the unfortunate guys that are trying to scare other guys into not even trying the medication

initiate these endless side effect discussions. And you/we try to keep them from going off the rails. Especially if you're going to be dwelling on the even more speculative topics like disappearing symptoms or symptoms that start years later. You're giving more opportunity for the kinds of endless amateur opinions that degenerate into even the absence of side effects being a potentially negative thing. Which just adds to the general atmosphere of paranoia and frustration that already exists for guys trying to fight their hair loss. 

 

[GoliGoliGoli]

39 minutes ago, ciaus said:

You're giving more opportunity for the kinds of endless amateur opinions that degenerate into even the absence of side effects being a potentially negative thing. 

Well, since this is clearly directed at me I suppose I will respond.

You're not accurately representing what I said- classic Strawman argument. I did not say "the absence of side effects is potentially a negative thing". I said when you start on a drug and begin to experience a known side effect of that drug, and then that side effect dissipates over time despite continuing with the drug, that does not necessarily mean that everything is now hunky-dorry from a physiological perspective. It does not necessarily mean the root cause of your testicles aching is now gone. On the contrary, it could also mean that your body is compensating to overcome the noticed side effect and the damage is not continuing, or is continuing on such a level to not be especially relevant or on a level that makes it worth it to you when you weigh the cost/benefit of the potential for it to maintain your hair versus the physiological damage it is causing. 

Notice the word choice I use: "Not necessarily", "could be", "noticed side effect", "could also mean". It's an adage in science that "Nothing is ever proven or disproven". Studies come out that either lend support to a thesis, or lend support to a counter argument. Science is all about using data, first principle thinking, and correlation to lead you to the best hypothesis. Overall from the research I've done I think trying to lower your DHT to maintain your hair is a horrible idea and very much a roll of the dice, but there are plenty of people who have been on it for years that would disagree. I could link to tons of studies about the wide range of functions DHT has in your body (Many completely unrelated to libido or erectile function) and why I think raising DHT is actually a good idea as opposed to lowering it, but I've already stood on my soap box long enough. If anyone is interested let me know and I can DM them to you. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by GoliGoliGoli

[ciaus]

33 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Well, since this is clearly directed at me I suppose I will respond.

You're not accurately representing what I said- classic Strawman argument.

 

Feel free to continue arguing with yourself. My posts are directed at guys sincerely trying to fight hair loss and minimizing medical speculations from amateurs that cause unnecessary paranoia.

[GoliGoliGoli]

And my posts are directed at guys considering using a drug for hair loss that transgender's use when transitioning from male to female. Good day to you sir.

[Vann]

8 hours ago, BaldBobby said:

The clinical studies state that most people’s side effects decrease after 6 months. Still there are many on reddit that claim to be on meds for 10+ years and their sexual sides have not decreased. 

My thing with this is most people never had some physical intimacy and start taking the drug after. Then blame the drug for ruining their "performance." Then there are some who actually experience some sort of side effect but dont put it on the drug, because, it isnt all of a sudden that this happens; its a gradual impact.

Then there are older people who have been on the drug for awhile and some who have never been on it and take it and all of a sudden they hear the placebo effect and magically they have side effects. The issue with this is the psyche of how we view the drug. 

Personally, whenever someone claims to have side effects I don't believe it. but there are some cases where people genuinely have lower libido from the get go and never get tested and experience side effects for the initial 6 months. But I am not saying those people should be disregarded, if anything I would say measure those people and say test their hormonal levels before/after taking the medications (if possible) and then see if they have any placebo effects.

For example... If I said out of 8,000,000,000 (8 billion) only 400,000,000 (400 million) people took the drug, half of them, reported side effects and the other half reported side effects without taking the drug (from the 400 million)... would you be willing to take the medication and see if you experience anything? I think most people would, but the issue is once they get that information they believe it without consulting their physician who would be the one to prescribe it. Its not like you can get this drug (in the US) without a script.

But to answer the thread question can fin/dut side effects be permanent or go away with time. Every single side effect that I have seen from reading as many physician notes, studies, clinical trials, etc. about 95% of the side effects are not permanent. There are some men within the 5% who created different side effects from many others taking the drugs but were still noted. Some of the biggest factors that skewed the results were age. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Vann

[NARMAK]

I think the above with regards to men, particularly in the modern world having anxiety in the moment with "performance" placed squarely at the door of Finasteride is pure and simply a form of "ego protection".  We see this with all sorts of things in society whether it be losing weight or anything similar. 

Unless a person has specifically exhausted and ruled out pre-existing or even new existing medical conditions that can come with age, then it's simply and has always been that Finasteride is used as a catch all boogeyman and scapegoat. There's no debating that at all imo. You can, but i don't really intend to go into it with you. You can choose to take that how you want but at the end of the day, if a person believes something a la "The Earth is Flat" and not even bothered to go and look at the actual multitude of scientific evidence, why would somebody even waste time trying to debate it with you? You can't argue with stupidity after all. It will just make yourself dumber or end in futility. 

[RTC]

The fact that finasteride can cause gyno and lower libido is just reason enough for me not to take it. Keeping my hair just doesn't outweigh potential negative side effects like those.

We live in a constant battle to stay virile and not allow our environments to destroy us physiologically as men... Fin, sadly, is another one of those things that potentially diminishes our virility.

Topical only for me, for now anyway

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by RTC

[NARMAK]

9 minutes ago, RTC said:

The fact that finasteride can cause gyno and lower libido is just reason enough for me not to take it. Keeping my hair just doesn't outweigh potential negative side effects like those.

We live in a constant battle to stay virile and not allow our environments to destroy us physiologically as men... Fin, sadly, is another one of those things that potentially diminishes our virility.

Topical only for me, for now anyway

 

To your point regarding gyno, it's actually a much more significant concern and much more highly likely that people that were overweight as children or adults for a significant enough time can have had gyno develop than the likelihood that it was caused by Finasteride/Dutasteride. Again, we need to look at the odds of things here and lifestyle choices as well as the current epidemic of obesity are more likely a culprit. 

Now, again with being overweight/obese, we know this causes issues with libido/erection quality in men, as does aging and also smoking. Men as they age will naturally come to have this problem but being in healthier shape even without medication used at all is the only thing that helps mitigate those outcomes.

Now myself for example, i'm on a journey of fitness at the moment to get healthier again, so i plan to lose a good amount of weight to get healthier but i have concerns i could have due to being overweight when younger/older have caused gyno. So just like people that go to get a hair transplant to treat their hair loss, there's a cosmetic procedure to treat gyno too and many other issues. Is it ideal? Of course not, but it all depends on you personally. 

I know you are using topical versions, but if the risk is still there even with that form, are you still willing to risk those potential sides? By taking it, the answer to me seems to be yes but that's because you believe it's the method of taking Finasteride that offers you the absolutely lowest level of risk you're willing to tolerate? 

So again, i think it comes back down to risk tolerance levels individuals are willing to accept in order to try save their hair. Some people will for example say even if there's a single chance, even under 1% that they don't want to risk it. 

Personally i think you roll the dice everyday in your life and you have to play the odds on everything and what you're willing to accept. 

[sukh123]

1 hour ago, NARMAK said:

To your point regarding gyno, it's actually a much more significant concern and much more highly likely that people that were overweight as children or adults for a significant enough time can have had gyno develop than the likelihood that it was caused by Finasteride/Dutasteride. Again, we need to look at the odds of things here and lifestyle choices as well as the current epidemic of obesity are more likely a culprit. 

Now, again with being overweight/obese, we know this causes issues with libido/erection quality in men, as does aging and also smoking. Men as they age will naturally come to have this problem but being in healthier shape even without medication used at all is the only thing that helps mitigate those outcomes.

Now myself for example, i'm on a journey of fitness at the moment to get healthier again, so i plan to lose a good amount of weight to get healthier but i have concerns i could have due to being overweight when younger/older have caused gyno. So just like people that go to get a hair transplant to treat their hair loss, there's a cosmetic procedure to treat gyno too and many other issues. Is it ideal? Of course not, but it all depends on you personally. 

I know you are using topical versions, but if the risk is still there even with that form, are you still willing to risk those potential sides? By taking it, the answer to me seems to be yes but that's because you believe it's the method of taking Finasteride that offers you the absolutely lowest level of risk you're willing to tolerate? 

So again, i think it comes back down to risk tolerance levels individuals are willing to accept in order to try save their hair. Some people will for example say even if there's a single chance, even under 1% that they don't want to risk it. 

Personally i think you roll the dice everyday in your life and you have to play the odds on everything and what you're willing to accept. 

I don’t think anyone wants to go under ,to get a lump removed from under your nipple which is essentially what gyno is. Once you get gyno the only way to get rid of it is  via surgical means. You can reduce it  to the point where to the naked eye, it would not be noticeable but once you get it’s permanent . Saying that gyno is actually a very rare side effect as opposed to the sexual ones most people who complain of sides get . Being overweight doesn’t correlate directly to getting gyno, but as a result of excessive body fat your estrogeon increases and if that becomes more dominant than your testosterone  levels then your at risk of gyno . Hence why some people who hop on fin get gyno because the reduction in dht causes more estrogeon production and if your hormonal profile prior to fin is already borderline in respects to the ratio of estrogeon to testerone, then you  could encounter these problems. Which is Why I think bloodwork is essential prior to starting fin or dut so you have a baseline of your hormones , so if you get sides, by retesting you might get some answers

[NARMAK]

36 minutes ago, sukh123 said:

I don’t think anyone wants to go under ,to get a lump removed from under your nipple which is essentially what gyno is. Once you get gyno the only way to get rid of it is  via surgical means. You can reduce it  to the point where to the naked eye, it would not be noticeable but once you get it’s permanent . Saying that gyno is actually a very rare side effect as opposed to the sexual ones most people who complain of sides get . Being overweight doesn’t correlate directly to getting gyno, but as a result of excessive body fat your estrogeon increases and if that becomes more dominant than your testosterone  levels then your at risk of gyno . Hence why some people who hop on fin get gyno because the reduction in dht causes more estrogeon production and if your hormonal profile prior to fin is already borderline in respects to the ratio of estrogeon to testerone, then you  could encounter these problems. Which is Why I think bloodwork is essential prior to starting fin or dut so you have a baseline of your hormones , so if you get sides, by retesting you might get some answers

Testing can certainly be a good thing, if you can afford it or are allowed to get it. That said, i'm still pretty sure in the majority of long term overweight to obese men, the risk of gyno is significantly higher than with Finasteride and even if you do lose enough weight, depending on the severity of it, you will likely either live with it to a largely unnoticeable degree or need to surgically intervene. 

Myself, i would consider the surgical option if it affected me that much personally on a visual level. That said, most people probably wouldn't need to if they were lucky enough to get fairly lean/muscular. I think even with the decrease in DHT and the increase in estrogen activity, a healthy active male can keep it in good balance. Estrogen actually contrary to some beliefs has a positive impact in the male body and we need it, just not in the dosage and imbalance that causes gyno etc.

[sunsurfhair]

2 hours ago, RTC said:

The fact that finasteride can cause gyno and lower libido is just reason enough for me not to take it. Keeping my hair just doesn't outweigh potential negative side effects like those.

We live in a constant battle to stay virile and not allow our environments to destroy us physiologically as men... Fin, sadly, is another one of those things that potentially diminishes our virility.

Topical only for me, for now anyway

 

How are you doing w topical fin? Any sides? Which one do you use btw?

[BaldDude]

Yeah I think @mustanggot gyno from topical finasteride. 

[mustang]

I did

[sunsurfhair]

2 minutes ago, mustang said:

I did

That’s awful so sorry dude. Did you need surgery? 

[sunsurfhair]

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-requires-disclosure-suicide-risk-anti-baldness-drug-2022-06-10/
 

[BaldDude]

Just now, sunsurfhair said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/fda-requires-disclosure-suicide-risk-anti-baldness-drug-2022-06-10/
 

Yep low DHT in the brain can cause depression in men.

[BaldDude]

It really sucks that we still don’t have a medication that protects follicles from DHT without having to reduce DHT. 

[mustang]

11 minutes ago, BaldBobby said:

Yep low DHT in the brain can cause depression in men.

It's not low DHT that causes depression, it's the absence of allopregnanolone which converts via 5AR from progesterone to dihydroprogesterone into allopregnanolone which is an essential neurosteroid.

Finasteride partially blocks this conversion while Dutasteride completely blocks it. 

[Vann]

Just to point out your genetics also make a big role, in addition to your diet. High protein meals like chicken have high levels of estrogen which can create a formation of breast development. But its not like you wake up and go dang... I have double Ds. Its an onset thing you realize is happening to you. Of course you wont be able to pin point why its happening but youll probably think you gained weight, maybe getting a bigger chest from working out, etc. 

But in reality we dont realize the true cause until its already too late.

[mustang]

19 minutes ago, sunsurfhair said:

That’s awful so sorry dude. Did you need surgery? 

I did need surgery

The only way to safely use Finasteride for those who are prone to side effects is to use a very low dose (0.25mg 3 times a week) and maintaining a bodyfat below 12%.

I am overs implying things but if you stay in shape and your estrogen doesn't spike your LH will maintain healthy levels of testosterone and neurosteroid activity. At least this is what I have seen in all my "friends" 

[sunsurfhair]

1 hour ago, BaldBobby said:

It really sucks that we still don’t have a medication that protects follicles from DHT without having to reduce DHT. 

Well said