I am now a Christian

[Leeson]

I know, when Lawyers are becoming "saved," the end is definetly near. I would also like to offer guidance and info for anyone who would like to learn about how to become saved.

[pushing 40]

In return, I would like to offer guidance and info for anyone who wishes to renounce beliefs in imaginary beings and instead place reality on his or her own shoulders.

[Leeson]

40, that next 40 will go by quicker than the first, then...

Basically faith is believinging in something you can't prove.

Like, do you love your mother? Ofcourse...so...PROVE IT.

Same issue with faith. When I die, lets say, just for saying, I'm wrong, what do I lose? But if I'm right...What do you lose? Big gamble your making.

Just because we can't see the spiritual world, doesn't make it cease to exist.

[Acrobaz]

Hi Leeson - good for you. It's not my belief any longer, but I respect those that hold it. Of course, I cannot disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster either.

 

Terry Pratchett satirised Pascal's wager as follows:

 

A philosopher claimed, "Possibly the gods exist, and possibly they do not. So why not believe in them in any case? If it's all true you'll go to a lovely place when you die, and if it isn't then you've lost nothing, right?" When the philosopher died, he woke up in a circle of gods holding nasty-looking sticks and one of them said, "We're going to show you what we think of Mr Clever Dick in these parts ..."

 

 

Respect, bro

[imissthebarber]

Pascal's wager has 2 elements as I see it, Pratchett makes an amusing satire of the weaker internal element by showing that the motivation for a given belief is important not just the belief held. However, the external element Pascal is talking about involves the risk/reward of belief in God vs unbelief based on whether God actually does exist or not. In this second regard I think Pascal makes a good point.

 

Anyway, I'm not really here to defend Pascal.

 

Unlike the flying spaghetti monster, Leeson would no doubt say that his faith is based on Jesus Christ, a historical person for whom there is very strong evidence that he did in fact exist.

[Leeson]

Flying Spaghetti Monster

Anyway, for clarification, I'm not wagering, I was throwing that out there from a quote I heard. If I was wagering, it wouldn't be sincere, hence void.

[pushing 40]

Well, in all honesty (assuming we non-believers are actually capable of honesty without fearing god's wrath), I was just teasing you a little; offering the other side of the "let me help" coin. But I do hope you have better rationale for your belief than "what if I'm wrong?". That is kind of kindergarten-ish... Now, let me say, I DO understand it is a "faith" rather than a belief. And, I know it has nothing to do with level of education, as I work daily with MIT physicists who are devoutly religious. I personally am just not capable of faith in any type of religion whatsoever. I spent over 20yrs in the military, traveled to 35 or 40 countries and lived in 7 for extended periods (1 to 3 yrs). My life, from age of awareness through now, has thoroughly enveloped me in a belief that this entire universe was NOT created for us pathetic little blobs of celestial spittle sitting in the middle of a very normal, run of the mill, galaxy that's equivilant to a single grain of sand on all the beaches on the earth. I would find religion the absolute MOST laughable thing in history if it wasn't for the fact its already got the title of most murderous, atrocity ridden, genocidal, phobic oriented, scheme in human history. Most religious people I know can't understand how someone without faith can have morals, integrity, honesty, or true human compassion. That is TERRIFYING to me and leads me to believe most people who believe in god and religion are emotionally and mentally flawed to a point beyond my ability to understand. These are just my opinions though.

[imissthebarber]

I think that both myself and Leeson have made clear that we don't believe due to the risks of being an atheist. Indeed to do this would be to be insincere as Acrobaz pointed out.

 

You also admit that is it your subjective interpretation of all forms of religion that has made you decide that none are credible.

 

However, you then go on to make some objective claims that religion is the

most murderous, atrocity ridden, genocidal, phobic oriented, scheme in human history

. First of all the facts are that the most murderous regimes in history were atheists generally bent on destroying religion. Look at Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Chang Kai Shek and Hitler. The biggest four mass murderers of the 20th century. According to the German magazine Bild they were responsible for over 120 million deaths between them, and no one could dispute that the figure is in the tens of millions.

 

Secondly, I think it is wrong to label all religions as the same just as much as it is wrong to label all political ideologies as the same. Fascism and Democracy are very different.

 

As a Christian I try to follow the teachings of Jesus who said "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." If everyone tried to do this then there would be a lot less atrocities not more. Like anything in life religion can be abused by people who are seeking their own ends. Hair transplantation is a good example. In certain cases done well it can make a positive difference to a person but abused by unethical selfish people wanting to make money it can cause a lot of harm.

 

Also I do believe that people who are not religious can have morals, integrity, honesty, or true human compassion. (I don't believe anyone living on earth today displays those things perfectly.) I can see from some of your other posts for example that you have been kind enough to complement other guys on the results they acheived and been supportive of people going through the process.

 

Are the MIT physicists you mentionned mentally flawed?

 

Unlike Pascal in his wager Jesus did not primarily threaten God's wrath but brought a message of hope and God's forgiveness and healing to people.

[a real client]

Leeson i'm happy...you appear a good and a happy guy.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Leesom,

 

As a fellow Christian, I'm very happy to hear that you recently came to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

 

Taking the road to follow Christ was the best decision I ever made.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[thanatopsis_awry]

I call bullshit that p40 was "just trying to tease a little"; the initial retort is laced with viciousness, and it's obvious from the following reply that he has an (ironically) fanatic and zealous disregard and resentment of religion and those who are religious.

[pushing 40]

Well Thana, maybe you're right. Sorry about that guys. I started out having a simple disregard for religion; paid no more attention to it than I would a passing car on the highway. But over the years, for some reason or maybe many reasons, I actually have developed a disdain for religion that borders on disgust for it all. So, I officially bow out of this thread, as I've already insulted some of you and I do not want to be that guy here. I feel a "baldness bretheren" type connection with you guys and see no need to screw that up. Let's press on with keeping guys out of the hands of hair butchers and into the arms of compassionate docs who will do right!

[Winston baby]

Welcome Leeson, some people treat Christians like strange people, God is being taken out of our schools, we are under attack, faith is needed more now than ever, I think Paganism is massively on increase, I also think the ruling elite worship another God, and see the world not as we do.

 

The CIA is evil vechile, but we get the goverment we deserve. Love not fear!

[MikeTheDane]

While i am a firm believer of freedom of speach, religion, sexuality, children should, in my opinion, be brought up in a neutral educational environment - when they are adults they can choose to embrace religion.

 

No harm has ever come with presenting and discussing ideas in a classroom, but I was taught in christianity when i was younger by a priest who took the word of the bible literally and accepted no other version. I consider this misguided and foolish.

 

I'm a believer. In equality, peace, the good in people, science, and keeping an open mind - but not god.

[EastCoast]

Deutschland ??ber alles

 

 

Gott Mit Uns !!!

[Winston baby]

I'm a believer. In equality, peace, the good in people, science, and keeping an open mind - but not god.

 

So I see, independent mind is good, and sadly lacking from many. I fear you have been put off God by bad experience, ther are many misguided souls who use God for bad, like internet, it can be used for good or bad, but it be people who bad, not internet.

 

 

To add to your list, tolerance, I think this very important, and love and understanding, which is hard for me at times, but all bad emotions come from fear! Fear is our enemy!

 

I also believe Hell not exist, or if it does there is nothing to fear because we are already in hell, This life we live is hell you see.

 

Praise the divine creator! (God)

[MikeTheDane]

I have no bad experience with god - i have simply chosen to follow:

 

1) My instinct

2) My heart

 

And both of them tell me that god does not exist, and believing that is fooling myself into a fallacy.

 

That's just what i believe is realistic - i'm still happy without him, and i see beauty whereever i go.

[Leeson]

Alot of people didn't believe until something swayed them against 'random theory.' Many astronaunts didn't believe, until they saw the Earth from space. Alot of times our heart and instinct get us killed. Our day to die could be at any moment. There could be an embolism heading to my/your brain at any time. Once you die, there's no rewind. Can't say, 'Oh God, I was wrong!' God makes his word known to all, and we have free-will to turn our backs on God, and many people, unfortunetly, make this choice. God doesn't force us to love him, that wouldn't be true love on our part. Like trying to force your GF to love you.

Those who aren't saved only have death to look forward to and this life is the best it will ever be for them. For the saved, this world is the worst it will ever be for us, and have no fear of dying; because we know our our 'fate.' It's comforting to know if a truck hits me head-on, while I'm on the interstate, I'm saved. The non-believer will never know this feeling, but thinks all those that die each day are always somebody else, and will never be them.

You won't be able to say in the after life, 'I didn't know.' especially if your reading this discussion.

You can't say to God, 'prove your existence and then I'll love you;' but if you open your "heart," he'll come in.

[HairDew]

I do believe in God but I don't believe in organized religion. I have the MOST respect for people who believe in "their" God, however; to state that you know FOR SURE you are saved once hit by a truck is either naive or simply blind. NOBODY knows for sure what will happen once you die, otherwise the religion wouldn't be called "FAITH", instead it would be called "FACT" - BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

There are many contradictions in organized religion, it's not even funny. God loves EVERYONE, yet he will save only the ones who PRAY and BELIEVE in him. Churches are houses of God, this is where you pray to God....wait..but God is everywhere, why do we need a special "house" to pray to him? And for some reason all churches NEED MONEY. Of course their excuse is: "Well, we need money to keep the church going....ah....then why do priests need a Mercedes to drive? Now, let look at Vatican...what is this? A Palace? A City? I'm sure God wants THE POPE to live there to "help" people.

 

I know one thing, if Jesus IS indeed God and he comes back, I highly doubt his would look at churches and say: "Yup, that's the way I wanted "my" religion to be. People with special interests, money, special privileges etc. I bet you, Jesus will still walk around the world helping people, the way he used to (if that's in fact what he did).

 

P.S. don't take my post as a bashing of religion.

[Leeson]

I too think 'religion' messes things up. I belong to no religion. I'm of the Christian faith. Church of Christ non-denomination teach from the 1st century, before religion starting interfering. When man becomes involved, by setting rules up with a type of religion, it is taking God's word and being changed by Man. That's doomed to fail. 'Religion' in many ways turn people off from God, and yes, many people use religion to benefit financially.

Going to Church is a way of showing your dedication. Is Giving 1 day a week too much vs. watching TV, etc.? If you think the donation part is a scam, then give to a charity you believe in instead, nobody is holding a gun to your head for your money. It's a choice done voluntarily, not mandatory.

[swim]

Originally posted by Leeson:

God makes his word known to all, and we have free-will to turn our backs on God, and many people, unfortunetly, make this choice.

 

Leeson,

 

Most of us (but not all) are "certain" that people have free will, though what exactly this amounts to is much less certain.

 

You are lawyer, so, how would you defend your position if I state that there is no free will because:

 

1.Person acts with free will only if he/she is the originator (or ultimate source) of her/his actions.

2.If natural laws are valid, and also cause/consequence (causality) is true, then everything any agent does is ultimately caused by events and circumstances outside his/her control.

3.If everything a person does is ultimately caused by events and circumstances beyond his/her control, then the agent is not the originator (or ultimate source) of her/his actions.

 

Therefore, if causality is true, then no agent is the originator (or ultimate source) of his/her actions.

Therefore, if causality is true, no agent, or person, has free will.

 

How would you explain free will?

[swim]

I like Leeson too.I like to debate with intelligent mind. He is smart to know that I not necessary intend to personally challenge him.

 

I would like to talk to a smart man

[Leeson]

Ah, the age old debate of determinism vs. freewill. Did Einstein kill the freewill school of thought with spacetime (everything that was, is, and will be is already a process of spacetime) or does spontaneity cause determinism to fail? I'm guessing that you took Philosophy 100 & 101 in college by your questions. Maybe we are just a brain in a vat ,according to an old philosopher, and our reality is truely a dream. What separates our choices from machines/animals? This would takes 18 pages to state a defense and even then that would not backup all positions on this argument. We could go philosiphical, theological, laws of physics, psychological, quantum mechanics. Are our choices a chemical reaction?, etc.

If I was really adamant on proving my position, I could just jump into traffic. So much for self-preservation. Less intense would be binge drinking, due to it being harmful to the body. Then you would come back with my experiences/nuturing/genetics led to my alcoholism/suicidal tendecies and I had no choice in the matter.

 

P.S. I still like Ogre's (from Revenge of the Nerds II) philosophical thought, "What if C-A-T, really spells DOG. Whoaaaa, that's deep Ogre."

[swim]

Originally posted by Leeson:

Ah, the age old debate of determinism vs. freewill. Did Einstein kill the freewill school of thought with spacetime (everything that was, is, and will be is already a process of spacetime) or does spontaneity cause determinism to fail? I'm guessing that you took Philosophy 100 & 101 in college by your questions. Maybe we are just a brain in a vat ,according to an old philosopher, and our reality is truely a dream. What separates our choices from machines/animals? This would takes 18 pages to state a defense and even then that would not backup all positions on this argument. We could go philosiphical, theological, laws of physics, psychological, quantum mechanics. Are our choices a chemical reaction?, etc.

If I was really adamant on proving my position, I could just jump into traffic. So much for self-preservation.

I wondered did you explore that .

 

Every good defense lawyer should. To attack the nicely constructed concept of guilt, which we use to inflict penalty.

 

Testing

 

My respect Leeson

[swim]

Quote from D'Holbach, The System of Nature

 

"From whence it

may be seen, that the same necessity which regulates the physical, also regulates the moral

world, in which every thing is in consequence submitted to fatality. Man, in running over,

frequently without his own knowledge, often in despite of himself, the route which nature has

marked out for him, resembles a swimmer who is obliged to follow the current that carries

him along: he believes himself a free agent, because he sometimes consents, sometimes does

not consent, to glide with the stream, which, notwithstanding, always hurries him forward;

he believes himself the master of his condition, because he is obliged to use his arms under

the fear of sinking.

Volentem ducunt fata, nolentem trahunt.

Senec.

The false ideas he has formed to himself upon free agency, are in general thus founded: there

are certain events which he judges necessary; either because he sees that they are effects

constantly and invariably linked to certain causes, which nothing seems to prevent; or

because he believes he has discovered the chain of causes and effects that is put in play to

produce those events: whilst he contemplates as contingent other events of whose causes he

is ignorant, and with whose mode of acting he is unacquainted: but in nature, where every

thing is connected by one common bond, there exists no effect without a cause. In the moral

as well as in the physical world, every thing that happens is a necessary consequence of

causes, either visible or concealed, which are of necessity obliged to act after their peculiar

essences. In man, free agency is nothing more than necessity contained within himself."