Post Surgical LLLT Timeframe question (Drs please weigh in!)

[ready4Hair]

I am very sold on LLLT for both non-surgical and post-surgucal hair beneftis. I know many people on here are not and think it doesn't grow hair (despite studies to the contrary) yet I beleive that hair growth aside it definitely has been proven to provide beneftis to follicles and tissue. There are countelss studies of it's beneftis for post-surgical healing, speeding recovery, aptosis, and preventing necrosis.

 

I wonder then why so many HT Drs. who do recommend it say to wait 4, 12,24 weeks? Wouldnt the greatest benefit BE in the first weeks when the tissue is in fact healing? It would be great if any HT Dr.s on this board could reply, I am quite curios and would like to get the most benefit out of post-HT LLLT w/o dong any harm.

[Sean]

Id like to gear some doctor answers and proven input as well, great question.

[mklDK]

I bought the hairmax lasercomb post-op, because my doc recommended its use. He told me to start using it straight away. I was told to just take off the teeth of the comb and use it at an estimated distance corresponding to the distance it would have been away from the skin with the teeth still in. I have been using LLLT from day 3 post op.

[ready4Hair]

I bought the hairmax lasercomb post-op, because my doc recommended its use. He told me to start using it straight away. I was told to just take off the teeth of the comb and use it at an estimated distance corresponding to the distance it would have been away from the skin with the teeth still in. I have been using LLLT from day 3 post op.

 

Good luck on your regrowth! I wonder though how that would translate to a lasercap? You are talking between 7 and 12 lasers moved over the head, whilst a commercial or custom build lasercap can have up to 400.

 

I'd still love to get some Dr. input on this as it seems to me that after week 1 this would make great sense.

[Spanker]

I'm really less sold on a doctor's thoughts on LLLT, but really want to see some real research. Honestly, by today's standard, until I see something concrete my eyes roll in my head so hard I feel my retinas trying to detach.

[ready4Hair]

There is a lot of 'real research' out there both on LLLT for hair-loss but more importantly for research on LLLT for surgical healing especially dermatological surgical healing. I invite you to search for yourself...

[FUEAsianHairline]

Ready4Hair,

 

I'm certainly not a dr or an expert, but if you are asking about LLLT post surgery, here is an indepth thread that is pretty interesting: WorldHairLoss.org Forums | Laser use after Hair Transplant OMG

 

I think it's potentially a helpful device primarily with wound healing. But again, I'm not an expert and I haven't had a HT.

[Spanker]

There is a lot of 'real research' out there both on LLLT for hair-loss but more importantly for research on LLLT for surgical healing especially dermatological surgical healing. I invite you to search for yourself...

 

I stopped researching it several years ago. Unless they're was a break through I've not heard about, it's snake oil.

[ready4Hair]

I guess all the studies on healing post-surgery are all bogus then.

[TakingThePlunge]

Dr. Sharon Keene has been researching LLLT for hair growth and she has thus car concluded that handheld laser devices are ineffective. We published a very short summary from her presentation at the 2014 ISHRS Meeting in Kuala Lumpur.

 

Low-level laser treatment for hair growth remains one of the most hotly debated hair loss treatments. At this year’s meeting, Coalition hair restoration physician Dr. Sharon Keene of Tucson, AZ presented the results of her LLLT research which yielded important information that consumers considering purchasing a laser device should know.

Dr. Keene has found that beaming laser or any other light on to hair seems unlikely to get to scalp. Only very thin hairs will allow the light to penetrate if the scalp is exposed properly. If light is not perpendicular to the scalp or not touching the scalp, it is likely not to work well or at all. This means that laser hoods and overhead devices cannot make the same claims that devices such as the HairMax LaserComb that touch the scalp do. Also, there are fundamental flaws in recent LLLT studies. Their hair counting methods appeared to be inaccurate so results are not reliable (except the laser comb–but results were modest and no one knows if they are sustainable).

[ready4Hair]

It's interesting; I prefaced this thread with the fact that "I am very sold on LLLT for both non-surgical and post-surgucal hair beneftis...because I beleive that hair growth aside it definitely has been proven to provide beneftis to follicles and tissue. There are countelss studies of it's beneftis for post-surgical healing, speeding recovery, aptosis, and preventing necrosis to set up my question as to "why so many HT Drs. who do recommend it say to wait 4, 12,24 weeks?"

 

Yet so far mostly I am getting posts from believe trying to dissuade me that it works at all. So to clarify I don't really care to debate it, I didn't set up an LLLT: Does it Work? thread, I set up a thread for patients and especially Drs (er no not Feller or any of the other 'honest' Drs) to weigh in on why if they too believe in LLLT for healing they wouldn't recommend it until later on. Feel free to reply off-topic, it is a free world, yet just be aware this thread is not meant to debate the efficacy of LLLT and I'm sure you can find threads to do just that if you want.

[Sean]

Doctors , recommended doctors, including those that recommend lasers, i know you are reading, can you please weigh in with your input, on the record? Please answer the question at hand from the op's original post? Anyone?

[ready4Hair]

Dr. Sharon Keene has been researching LLLT for hair growth and she has thus car concluded that handheld laser devices are ineffective. We published a very short summary from her presentation at the 2014 ISHRS Meeting in Kuala Lumpur.

 

Low-level laser treatment for hair growth remains one of the most hotly debated hair loss treatments. At this year’s meeting, Coalition hair restoration physician Dr. Sharon Keene of Tucson, AZ presented the results of her LLLT research which yielded important information that consumers considering purchasing a laser device should know.

Dr. Keene has found that beaming laser or any other light on to hair seems unlikely to get to scalp. Only very thin hairs will allow the light to penetrate if the scalp is exposed properly. If light is not perpendicular to the scalp or not touching the scalp, it is likely not to work well or at all. This means that laser hoods and overhead devices cannot make the same claims that devices such as the HairMax LaserComb that touch the scalp do. Also, there are fundamental flaws in recent LLLT studies. Their hair counting methods appeared to be inaccurate so results are not reliable (except the laser comb–but results were modest and no one knows if they are sustainable).

 

Funny the hair counting method(s) in this quite detailed study don't seem suspect at all:

 

OverMachoGrande.com: Long Term (1 year) Results of LLLT - improved hair growth and slowed further progression [with pics]

 

I know some Drs are equivocal, some are downright hostile (and pull the Al Gore trick of calling anyone who doesn't agree dishonest by implication, see Dr. Feller i.e. http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/150351-list-doctors-who-consider-lllt-quackary.html), but there are many who do support it:

 

Lasercap

 

a list which includes Dr. Cooley and Dr. Wong.

 

Then of course there is this publication in PubMed which summarizes a dozen studies to conclude that "LLLT for hair growth in both men and women appears to be both safe and effective":

 

Low-level laser (light) therapy (LLLT) for treatment of hair loss. - PubMed - NCBI

 

not to mention this thread of patients who used LLLT IMMEDIATLY after HT successfully:

 

WorldHairLoss.org Forums | Laser use after Hair Transplant OMG

 

and this one:

 

http://www.regrowth.com/hair-loss-forums/topic/close-up-post-transplant-progress-pictures-with-lllt-to-aid-recovery/page/2/ which among other things includes this post:

 

"your healing progress with the lasers parallels my experience last August. With the aid of lasers my transplant healed 5 days earlier. Having gone through 3 transplants I agree that lasers should be a standard post-op procedure"

 

Not to mention dozens of studies on the efficacy of LLLT on post surgical healing and especially dermatological post surgical healing:

 

Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) efficacy in post-operative wounds. - PubMed - NCBI

Low Level Laser (Light) Therapy (LLLT) for Cosmetic Medicine and Dermatology

http://www.rheumatologynews.com/fileadmin/content_pdf/san/scms_pdf/vol27_i4_Light-Emitting_Diodes.pdf

http://lasercap.com/science-efficacy-safety.php

 

I get that 'detractors' will find ways to discredit these studies (and gloss over the ones for their own pet treatments) yet the evidence is pretty solid. The issue as with other treatments is no one every put on LLLT and grew a head of hair. Which for some reason discredits it. Yet the impact of LLLT on the quality of the skin/scalp/hair itself is far better then continued application of minox and it's additives.

 

Now that the thread has been hijacked to (yet another) debate on LLLT can we just get someone without an agenda or axe to grind (LLLT didn't grow me a new head of hair wah!) to weigh in on any good reason to NOT use LLLT immediatly after HT if it's efficacy is based on wound healing?

Edited March 1, 2015 by ready4Hair

[FUEAsianHairline]

Ready4Hair,

 

I've been using a LLLT helmet (I won't name the brand because I'm trying to be impartial) for about 6 months and I'm not sure if it works or not. I'm also using finasteride and I feel the same way about that. I can say for certain that my hair hasn't changed significantly since using both, which is partially good, meaning that my hair hasn't visibly recessed, but it's only been 6 months.

I did go in with very high and probably unrealistic expectations of a noticeably thicker and fuller hair line in 4-6 months, which definitely did not happen, but as time has passed I'm taking the long term approach to hair loss, although if I don't see results after a year, I may discontinue usage.

 

Even if that were to happen, I wouldn't say LLLT doesn't work in regrowing hair, I would simply say it didn't work for me whether it was a faulty device or I simply am not a good candidate for using such a device.

 

Also, I've talked to a number of recommended surgeons and only 1 or 2 have outright called LLLT a crock. A well respected surgeon told me recently that 4 years ago he wasn't convinced to it's benefits, but with new studies, he's keeping an open mind. I know of at least a few recommended surgeons who use LLLT in their practice especially post HT. So I think surgeons are becoming more and more open to this as more and more studies come in. But in your case and for others getting HTs, I think there's probably a decent benefit because we are dealing with wound healing where LLLT is proven to work.

[ready4Hair]

Ready4Hair,

 

I've been using a LLLT helmet (I won't name the brand because I'm trying to be impartial) for about 6 months and I'm not sure if it works or not. I'm also using finasteride and I feel the same way about that. I can say for certain that my hair hasn't changed significantly since using both, which is partially good, meaning that my hair hasn't visibly recessed, but it's only been 6 months. I'm taking the long term approach to hair loss, although if I don't see results after a year, I may discontinue usage.

 

Even if that were to happen, I wouldn't say LLLT doesn't work in regrowing hair, I would simply say it didn't work for me whether it was a faulty device or I simply am not a good candidate for using such a device.

 

Also, I've talked to a number of recommended surgeons and only a few have outright called LLLT a crock. A well respected surgeon told me recently that 4 years ago he wasn't convinced to it's benefits, but with new studies, he's keeping an open mind. I know of at least a few recommended surgeons who use LLLT in their practice especially post HT. So I think surgeons are becoming more and more open to this as more and more studies come in. But in your case and for others getting HTs, I think there's probably a decent benefit because we are dealing with wound healing where LLLT is proven to work.

 

Hi thanks for the input. One of the issues with any of these treatments is people believe they are going to get visible regrowth. If you read the studies and do the math, the increase in hair counts was about 8-10 hairs per sq cm. Seeing as the average head of hair is about 100-250 hairs per sq cm clearly this is not a huge increase. On the other hand it works out to about 5 follicles per sq cm. Again that is not a transplant which would generally be in the 30-50 follicles per sq cm. So expecting an HT level improvement with Lasers (of Fin or Minox etc) is unrealistic. The point is that LLLT improves scalp and follicle health and in some cases enough to increase hair count by 5%-10% which should tell you a lot about what is going on.

 

More to the point, the real benefit comes during wound healing, which is exactly what is going on after a HT be it FUT or FUE. Which again brings me to the point that it would be most effective in the 3-4 weeks post HT and immediately after.

 

To really test the benefit of any treatment in the future btw, I'd buy one of those micro camers, find a spot on your vertex and temples and take pictures once every month to get a clearer idea not only on growth but on the health and width of the existing hair.

[FUEAsianHairline]

Makes sense. Can you post a link to a micro camera? That's a fairly generic term that leads to tons of search results. Thanks

[Loki]

Cleveland clinic did a study as well and concluded it worked as well. I think they used the hairmax lux... They are a top, if not the top research/clinic/hospital in the world. Maybe second to the Mayo Clinic. I'll try to find the link. As far as timing if you can remove the teeth I would say use day one. After 10 days return to normal use. I spoke with Dr Ron Shapiro and Dr Joe from SMG. Both reccomened to use them (didn't try to sell me anything) but said as with anything be consistent.

[ready4Hair]

Cleveland clinic did a study as well and concluded it worked as well. I think they used the hairmax lux... They are a top, if not the top research/clinic/hospital in the world. Maybe second to the Mayo Clinic. I'll try to find the link. As far as timing if you can remove the teeth I would say use day one. After 10 days return to normal use. I spoke with Dr Ron Shapiro and Dr Joe from SMG. Both reccomened to use them (didn't try to sell me anything) but said as with anything be consistent.

 

Sounds good, thank you. While I'd be on the fence for LLLT as hair growth I am not on the fence at all about HT healing. I won't be using a lasercomb however, I will be using a custom made 400 laser custom cap. All you need to do first month/week is hang it or otherwise support it just above your head. Check one of the links in my prior post (the one with OMG in it) for a couple HT patients experience with LLLT directly post surgery.

[ready4Hair]

I found the study:

 

Efficacy and Safety of a Low-level Laser Device in the Treatment of Male and Female Pattern Hair Loss: A Multicenter, Randomized, Sham Device-controlled, Double-blind Study

 

though to tell the truth doubt the findings:

 

"Based on previous testing data on lasercomb use, change in terminal hair count from baseline to study endpoint was found to be a mean increase of just under 30 hairs/cm2 with a standard deviation of 18.6 hairs/cm2."

 

Which would be a mean increase of ~ 15 grafts/cm2. Given that HTs range from 30-50 gradts/cm2 I find those #s hard to believe, and the other larger scale studies with some serious LLLT wattage steadily applied (cap vs comb) resulted in about 8 graft/follicles/cm2.

[ready4Hair]

Both reccomened to use them (didn't try to sell me anything) but said as with anything be consistent.

 

I think if I ever test anything again (hopefully won't after HT) I'd do microcamera on temples, occipatal, etc and make some objective analysis vs subjective visual analysis. I might just do that with the LLLT once I start.

[ready4Hair]

From another study:

 

"After 24 weeks of treatment, the LLLT group showed significantly greater hair density than the sham device group. Mean hair diameter improved statistically significantly more in the LLLT group than in the sham device group. Investigator global assessment showed a significant difference between the two groups, but that of the subject did not. No serious adverse reactions were detected."

 

The mean-hair diameter result is IMHO more relevant than the terminal hair growth.

[vasi50]

I got a HT from a well known NY Coalition Doc in mid Jan. and when I asked whether I can use my Theradome post HT he said "sure, it may help with the healing." But that was it, nothing about enhancing results, etc...It was one of those couldn't hurt and might benefit type answers.

[FUE2014]

Those laser helmets are a helluva lot of money to spend on something that only may help with healing and despite the published data, anecdotal reports have been overwhelmingly negative over the years to the point where laser combs and the like are rarely spoken about in hair loss communities as a treatment option. The biggest drawback for me also, besides the cost, is feeling like a complete dick wearing one of these things.

[ready4Hair]

Those laser helmets are a helluva lot of money to spend on something that only may help with healing and despite the published data, anecdotal reports have been overwhelmingly negative over the years to the point where laser combs and the like are rarely spoken about in hair loss communities as a treatment option. The biggest drawback for me also, besides the cost, is feeling like a complete dick wearing one of these things.

 

Anecdotal reports have not been overwhelmingly negative, they have just not been overwhelmingly positive and for hair *growth* at that. Anecdotal evidence for ht healing has been positive in fact, and the science behind the healing has been as well. Laser combs are a joke, high-quality laser caps are not. I'd recommend not wearing any of them in public, yet if you mean you'd just feel like a dick even when alone certainly it can't feel any dumber then sprinkling carbon fibers on your head or rubbing one after another of any number of topical solutions on your head. BTW 'anecdotal' evidence for Minox and Fin is nowwhere near as good as studies either. Why? Because everyone is expecting a new hear of hair, not the best case scenario of 10-12 hairs per sq cm or cessation of loss that is most likely. Somehow Lasers take it on the chin.

[FUE2014]

Anecdotal reports have not been overwhelmingly negative, they have just not been overwhelmingly positive and for hair *growth* at that. Anecdotal evidence for ht healing has been positive in fact, and the science behind the healing has been as well. Laser combs are a joke, high-quality laser caps are not. I'd recommend not wearing any of them in public, yet if you mean you'd just feel like a dick even when alone certainly it can't feel any dumber then sprinkling carbon fibers on your head or rubbing one after another of any number of topical solutions on your head. BTW 'anecdotal' evidence for Minox and Fin is nowwhere near as good as studies either. Why? Because everyone is expecting a new hear of hair, not the best case scenario of 10-12 hairs per sq cm or cessation of loss that is most likely. Somehow Lasers take it on the chin.

 

Fair comment.