Arocha FUE-Scars SO small, they are undetectable!

[ArochaInfo]

[Blake Bloxham]

Info,

 

Thank you for sharing. It looks like Dr. Arocha is really expanding the amount of FUE procedures he performs. Would you care to share some more info about this technique, his typical FUE patient, his FUE philosophy, etc?

[Spanker]

I am not saying that the scars are not undetectable, but I would say that I would take more convincing photos with a title like that. There is no way you would see my strip scar in a similar photo. It would be neat to add some macro photos.

[Arrie]

Agreed with Spanker.... If you make a claim like that I would like to see the patients donor area shaved 12-15 months post op from a FUE procedure.

[Since21]

I believe that's a bit of an overstatement and the tone of the claim reminds me of the hair transplant ads of yore. Personally, I would just let the results speak for themselves. It's a little chest-beating.

 

While this may not be scarring, it does show evidence of FUE harvesting 15 months post-op:

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/174514-dr-arocha-post-fue-2400-a.html

[Mickey85]

Agreed with the above. Post FUE results showing excellent yield and donors shaven to a guard 1. That is a much more effective and sincere method of promoting your clinic's FUE skills rather than claiming Arocha FUE scars are undetectable and showing the donor of a patient who has his hair 4cm long and with no information on how many grafts were extracted. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Mickey85

[hsrp10]

also in agreement with the above

I seem to like the work of Dr. Arocha, but I think the clinic has to modify a little bit the way it promotes itself, especially on this forum where the veteran patients here have a more discerning take on things

[ArochaInfo]

Future_HT_Doc,

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to view our FUE results, and for your comments. Dr. Arocha is busy getting ready for his talks at OLSWS. He will share information with the community fallowing his return addressing your queries.

[ArochaInfo]

Spanker,Arrie,Since21,Mickie85, and hsrp10,

 

 

 

Thank you all for taking the time to view our patients results. Excuse me, if you could not see the 4 days post-FUE photo to the right of the first day FUE photo. That photo shows his donor area 4 days after his surgery. Spanker, agree with posting some macro photos we shut in RAW. Hope this helps to further elucidate this topic.

 

 

[Mickey85]

No one was questioning the donor shots 4 days post-op. The scars immediately post-op and 4 days post op are detectable, which is completely normal. We were talking about the donor shots 5 months after surgery. Showing photos of the donor with long hair does nothing to prove the scarring is undetectable.

 

Seems like Arocha has changed his stance on FUE scarring quite a bit since this video:

 

 

 

Exact quote "One usually has much more, anywhere from seven to fourteen times more scar with FUE than with strip. Done in good hands".

 

I'll leave it to you guys to decide why he changed his mind on FUE...

[Jotronic]

Seems like Arocha has changed his stance on FUE scarring quite a bit since this video:

 

 

 

Exact quote "One usually has much more, anywhere from seven to fourteen times more scar with FUE than with strip. Done in good hands".

 

I'll leave it to you guys to decide why he changed his mind on FUE...

 

His quote does not state that FUE scarring is 7 to 14 times more visible, only instead that there can be 7 to 14 times more scarring. Those are two separate issues entirely.His logic regarding there being more scar tissue overall is sound.

[Mickey85]

His quote does not state that FUE scarring is 7 to 14 times more visible, only instead that there can be 7 to 14 times more scarring. Those are two separate issues entirely.His logic regarding there being more scar tissue overall is sound.

 

Please show me where I stated his logic was not sound Joe? I never said Arocha was saying anything fictitious.

 

I was pointing out the vast shift in the marketing of the FUE method by Arocha. The tone I got from that video(and another one he did) was rather dismissive and negative of FUE, attempting to sway viewers away from it. Quite a change from these days where they are pushing it quite heavily, in my honest opinion. I'm all for surgeons adopting FUE if they can provide good FUE so it is all good.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Mickey85

[Since21]

Also, he uses the example of a 1mm punch, whereas someone like Lorenzo (and others who practice it exclusively) typically use a smaller punch size - in Lorenzo's case .08mm. He may have done that to simplify the math, and I don't know what Dr. Arocha uses, but it seems he should have at least mentioned that the holes (and resulting scarring) can be significantly less than his given example.

[Mickey85]

Also, he uses the example of a 1mm punch, whereas someone like Lorenzo (and others who practice it exclusively) typically use a smaller punch size - in Lorenzo's case .08mm. He may have done that to simplify the math, and I don't know what Dr. Arocha uses, but it seems he should have at least mentioned that the holes (and resulting scarring) can be significantly less than his given example.

 

He also makes no mention that the strip scar is largely dependent on patient physiology and that it can stretch regardless of the closure and no tension. If he wants to talk scarring, tell the whole story.

[Spanker]

a good FUT scar= 300mm*2mm=600mm2 of scarring (estimating a 3000 graft case)

FUE= .8 (internally or externally)= an area of .4mm2 per FU*3000= 1200mm2 of scarring.

 

I came up with twice the scarring. I could be doing my math wrong, but that is what I was able to come up with. Take it for what its worth. There are a ton of variables that do not go into this, like the fact that 300mm may be kind of long for people with good density and laxity to get 3000 grafts, and some scarring may be less than .8 in diameter, or more in diameter. I just thought would throw out what I could. Also, a 2mm scar is what I recieved but not everyone is that lucky.

 

Also keep in mind that this equation is not linear per follicular unit in regards to strip, some patients will be able to receive more or less than that, but it is in FUE, if the diameter of the scarring is correct.

[Mickey85]

a good FUT scar= 300mm*2mm=600mm2 of scarring (estimating a 3000 graft case)

FUE= .8 (internally or externally)= an area of .4mm2 per FU*3000= 1200mm2 of scarring.

 

I came up with twice the scarring. I could be doing my math wrong, but that is what I was able to come up with. Take it for what its worth. There are a ton of variables that do not go into this, like the fact that 300mm may be kind of long for people with good density and laxity to get 3000 grafts, and some scarring may be less than .8 in diameter, or more in diameter. I just thought would throw out what I could.

 

Thanks Spanker, that is very interesting. Where did he get seven to fourteen(!) times the amount of scarring from?

[Spanker]

Thanks Spanker, that is very interesting. Where did he get seven to fourteen(!) times the amount of scarring from?

 

 

I am not sure. The internal scarring could be much bigger than .8. I don't have experience in that. Or, my math could be pretty close to reality. I didn't have an agenda to the answer I came up with, it was just curiosity, so I can't speak too heavily as the "real world" accuracy of the numbers based on my lack of knowledge regarding internal FUE scar diameter.

[Mickey85]

I am not sure. The internal scarring could be much bigger than .8. I don't have experience in that. Or, my math could be pretty close to reality. I didn't have an agenda to the answer I came up with, it was just curiosity, so I can't speak too heavily as the "real world" accuracy of the numbers based on my lack of knowledge regarding internal FUE scar diameter.

 

I always thought that the scar itself does not necessarily have a direct 1:1 correlation to the punch as in, a .8mm punch will not necessarily result in a .8mm scar but slightly less due to the scalp's healing functions but I don't have any proof to substantiate that.

[Jotronic]

I always thought that the scar itself does not necessarily have a direct 1:1 correlation to the punch as in, a .8mm punch will not necessarily result in a .8mm scar but slightly less due to the scalp's healing functions but I don't have any proof to substantiate that.

 

 

many times it doesn't, at least for the smaller punches, My own .8mm scars look smaller than .8mm but of course your mileage may vary. The visible scarring will be closer to the punch size for some patients.

[Mickey85]

You had FUE Joe? Do tell

[Doug Monty]

Spanker,Arrie,Since21,Mickie85, and hsrp10,

 

 

 

Thank you all for taking the time to view our patients results. Excuse me, if you could not see the 4 days post-FUE photo to the right of the first day FUE photo. That photo shows his donor area 4 days after his surgery. Spanker, agree with posting some macro photos we shut in RAW. Hope this helps to further elucidate this topic.

 

 

 

Can you please explain why Dr. Arocha uses the Artas system for such a very small amount of the hair transplant and then uses a motorized manual punch for such a large portion of the head?

 

This is the second hair doc today which needs to use a second motorized hair punch in order to successful complete an FUE proceudre when started with the Artas.

 

It almost is starting to sound like a bait and switch technique.

 

Or the old "Fox Test" to determine if the patient was a good fit for FUE before they were switched to a strip procedure.

[ArochaInfo]

Doug Monty,

Drs Rassman and Bernstein are pioneers in FUE development, having done work on the subject, published articles including a seminal article: Rassman WR, Bernstein RM, McClellan R, Jones R, et al. Follicular unit extraction: minimally invasive surgery for hair transplantation. Dermatol Surg 2002; 28:720–727;and presented at the ISHRS scientific meeting over a decade ago. FOX was not developed to justify a switch to FUT, it is a useful test since not every patient is well served with FUE. With regards to bait and switch,we have many tools that we use in our hair restoration procedures. Sometimes one works better than another, so we use what is best in that particular patient. How can you bait and switch when you are performing FUE one way or another: FUE is FUE. Options are good especially when they leave the patient better off!

[SteveHairTransplant]

I wonder if you got the patient back in and shot some 100mm macro shots if you could show the scarring?

 

Actually, the ultimate B&A shot would be a video in high def on a DSLR camera with a 35-105 zoom then you could show the "portrait" and the "close up" and the video is really 24 high def pictures a second. Set up a better studio/lighting/lens setup maybe?

 

I also wonder if centering the donor site on the spine rather than off to the right would produce a more natural result long term? The asymmetry seems like if there was scarring you'd be able to notice it much more easily...