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Loosing faith with Regaine


vincentvega
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Hi there,

 

I realise that this is probably a fairly common question but after a fair bit of forum reading I'm still unsure what to do.

 

I have been using Regaine for about 15 months and while it has usually seemed to make my hair shed a bit less, I am now quite a lot thinner on top than when I started.

 

I have just started taking Finsateride but am yet to notice any effects as I have only been on it for a month or so.

 

Most of the advice on forums is to continue using Regaine/Rogaine/Minoxodil, but I am genuinely starting think it could be doing more harm than good.

 

So I guess my question is: Can Minoxodil do more harm than good, or worst case scenario can it just be quite ineffective in some cases? And would you advise me to continue taking it or not? Will things get even worse if I stop?

 

I started off with some slight thinning at the crown and front (somewhere between a Norwood 2 and 3V) and now things have got a fair bit worse as you can see from the pictures I have attached.

 

Would really appreciate some feedback.

 

Thanks in advance :)

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stay on both meds and reassess after a year on propecia, with continued use of rogaine foam, ive been on both ,and im closing in on one year with propecia and a year and a half with rogaine foam,my hairloss has stop , or its slowed down to a crawl and my hair overall is in better shape plus I have a lot of new hairs throughout my scalf, I don't know if these new hairs will turn into terminal hairs ,only time will tell, im planning on surgery this year.good luck in your journey in keeping your hair.

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Hi vince,

 

I have something important to tell you that is:) sure to help, but I've got to go to work, first. I've used both of those products with many ups and downs, so, hang in there and I'll get back to you after work and we'll try to smooth out the ride for you!

 

Sympathies,

iiieee

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Honestly, I am not sure from the photos that you are any less then. Angle and lighting have a LOT to do with how a shot like that turns out.

I am an online representative for Dr. Raymond Konior who is an elite member of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians.

View Dr. Konior's Website

View Spanker's Website

I am not a medical professional and my opinions should not be taken as medical advice.

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since you said:

 

I have just started taking Finsateride...for a month or so.

 

know that FIN can cause shedding in the first 3 months of use, which might not come back for at least 6 months so this might be the reason why you are seeing results that seem "worse" from what you started.

 

meaning the progress you made with REGAINE could have been shed when you started the FIN

 

just keep with them both.

you will see improvement by mid-summer

and a huge difference this time next year

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Hi vince,

 

I have something important to tell you that is:) sure to help, but I've got to go to work, first. I've used both of those products with many ups and downs, so, hang in there and I'll get back to you after work and we'll try to smooth out the ride for you!

 

Sympathies,

iiieee

 

Thanks iiieee, really looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

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Honestly, I am not sure from the photos that you are any less then. Angle and lighting have a LOT to do with how a shot like that turns out.

 

Just to be clear, both these shots are taken on the same day, and I'm 100% sure I have less hair than I did a year ago.

 

Thanks!

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since you said:

 

I have just started taking Finsateride...for a month or so.

 

know that FIN can cause shedding in the first 3 months of use, which might not come back for at least 6 months so this might be the reason why you are seeing results that seem "worse" from what you started.

 

meaning the progress you made with REGAINE could have been shed when you started the FIN

 

just keep with them both.

you will see improvement by mid-summer

and a huge difference this time next year

 

Totally see where you're coming from here, but this loss has been a gradual thing over the last year or so. I'm yet to notice any change in the last month since taking Finasteride. I haven't made any noticable Regaine progress for about a year or so. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

Cheers!

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ok, i'm back...

 

Hi vince,

 

Again,sorry to hear things are getting worse, that sucks when you're trying so hard--and spending good money...

 

So, as per my advice...I've used Finasteride and Rogaine, at different times and together (for about 2 months) since 1993. There's something you should know about using these two agents together. But first, we should address the lack of results you've met with Rogaine--since that's what you started with. . . If you've been losing your hair for less than 10 years and you apply Rogaine properly you should get most, if not all, of your hair back--just as it was before you started losing your hair. When I first started using Rogaine (regular 2%, not the new 5%), 1993, I had been losing my hair for nine years, I had lost a lot of hair (from all over) and my hairline was just beginning to recede. After about 3 months my hair started to come back huge (even sooner, I think). But I was interrupted (by "life") and had to restart so it took another 7 months before the retardation of stopping was overcome, and I got it ALL back (as you should know when you stop treatment and restart it takes a lot longer to see results then if you continue from the start without interruption--and if you stop and start after the 10 yr mark (of hair loss) you won't be able to get it all back, the way it was before loss started). So, it's very important that you do it right, from the start, and it sounds like you're not, or you would definitely have seen obvious results....Now, let's cut back to the finasteride question before i tell you what is likely wrong with your rogaine routine. This, again, is out of experience. I started using extra strength 5% rogaine in 2001 (long story between 1993 and 2001) with finasteride, thinking that the two would work better together, but soon saw that there was a problem. I had a great deal of difficulty getting the rogaine through my hair (which was long then) and on to my scalp and became so frustrated because so much of it just made an oily mess with my hair ,as it became thicker and thicker, that I became a little careless (or unsure) and missed an area on the left side of my head. And, this is when I found out that finasteride and rogaine should not be used together!...One month later I lost a whole bunch of hair from the left side of my head (where I missed a spot in the application a month earlier) and I have never been able to grow it back evenly with the other side of my head! (Anyway, no need to feel bad for me, when I cut my hair short, brush cut, you could barely tell--I would have to point it out). So, I know that using both (5% and fin.) can be detrimental; if the 5% rogaine fails--or you miss a spot--it will leave a mark!! Therefore it is dangerous to use both, when you are unsure of how well the rogaine is working--or how well it is being applied. And, if I remember correctly, either rogaine or propecia warns they are to be used alone. (After that I just used the finasteride--even though the 5% gave me a FULL head of hair again--because after the application with 5% my hair was a greasy mess, it only looked good just after washing, before the application).

 

So, stop using the finasteride, now, and focus on doing the rogaine correctly. Again, from experience...When I restarted 5% rogaine in 2006 (another long story) I was surprised that it didn't give me any better results than the finasteride I'd just switched from until I discovered my mistake. After a few years, I rethought how I had been doing it and the results I'd had not long before with 2% or finasteride (which are the same and can be interchanged) and realized that I wasn't waiting long enough, after applying the 5% solution, before going outside. From the time I had this epiphany I reckoned it would take about 3 months for the turn around (half the time for 2% or finasteride). And, I was right, it came back strong, and so, since then I have always waited at least 2.5 hours before going outside after an application.

 

 

They both work on the same biochem principal, anyway, and, in fact, the 5% rogaine works way better finasteride. And adding something to something that isn't working doesn't even make common sense, it just clouds the issue--eg. what will you do if it starts working after the addition of finasteride, will you attribute the success to the combination of the two and use them both for life?? Think of the the expense and the risk! (not to mention the added strain to you body's systems).

 

ok, got to go for now...just concentrate on doing the 5% correctly, and don't be shy about asking me a question,

iiieee

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Hey iiieee,

 

Thank you for your long and detailed response.

 

I can assure you I have been using Regaine correctly, as per the instructions. Twice a day, usually at around 12 midday and again at around 12 midnight before bed. My hair has never been very long, but especially so recently as now I cut the top to a grade 4, so I can't see the length being an issue either.

I have missed the odd application but this is rare, I've done my best to stick to it as I'm aware you need to be strict with it. As for going outside, I work from home so I'd imagine I've been doing this less than the average user.

 

Can you explain why you think using both Regaine and Finasteride can be detrimental please? This is not a common belief held on these forums from what I can tell. From what I can see it seems more like you saw bad results from the Regaine due to the way you applied it.

 

I kind of feel we both react to Minoxodil in different ways. I saw a small bit of regrowth initially but have been loosing ever since. You however it seems, with the right regime get a lot more positive results.

 

I can attribute my experience to only two things:

 

1. My hair is thinning so rapidly that minoxodil just doesn't cut the mustard in curbing it. Looking at my Dad as evidence, this is genetically feasible.

 

2. Minoxodil is actually making things worse for me. Looking at my brother who is 12 years my senior and still fairly thick on top, this could be feasible too.

 

So essentially this takes me back to my original question which is the most important thing for me to know:

 

Can Regaine/Minoxodil actually make things worse in some cases? For me I have to say the evidence is pointing to this being a possibility. I would be seriously happy if anyone could verify or debunk this.

 

Either way given the fact that Regaine is not working for me, surely the best option here would be to wait and see how the Finsateride works out for me and then stop the Regaine if/when I begin to see a change. Or perhaps keep using them both together if the results are good. Which leads me to my other important question, am I likely to see a large shed when I stop using Regaine?

 

Many thanks.

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Hi vince,

 

I actually wrote you a fairly detailed report that day after work, but I've been having some difficulty with the functionality of this site. It took me about an hour to write but when I tried to send it it got lost--something about duplicate headings or something...

 

I'll just give you a point form version of the most important part, that way I can hedge my bets against time:

 

-I see a lot of talk about using rogaine extra strength and propecia together on this site, I've had some bad experience with this, let me explain . . . when I did this I had great difficulty getting the rogaine through my hair onto my scalp, so I eventually wound-up missing an area over my left side (I was making parts in my hair and filling them with drops of 5% solution...)--In due time (about 2.5 months), I got all of my hair back(!) and then, about a week or 2 later, the hair in that missed area shed, so I was "lop-sided"--anyway, I stopped the finasteride (a bit frustrated and depressed, of course) and persisted with the 5% rogaine for about another 3 months (to see if the "damaged" area would come back)--it didn't, and not only that but when I then switched to finasteride, by itself, lost some hair from both sides and things evened out, a bit (since finasteride is only equivalent in strength to, roughly, the affect of the old 2% rogaine--before the invention of 5% rogaine), the damaged area was still visible! . . . So, in layman's terms, I reasoned that with the minoxidil and finasteride working together, the vasodialating affect of the minoxidil would allow the finasteride to reach areas it would not otherwise get into, and so, when the minoxidil was no longer present (and the vessels or vesicles returned to their normal diameter) the finasteride was trapped in these areas, causing damage. . . Okay, that's not a very sound molecular biological argument, a bit specious--but it is a good way to think of it, in the sense that it provides a mnemonic, of sorts, by which to visualize and remember that there is a drug interaction taking place there . . .

 

-So, you might imagine, even if you never miss a spot, how this would affect the boarders of your 5% coverage; you're not spreading rogaine over your entire head, probably just the top (by the looks of your photos)--and so what happens as you apply it to slightly more or less area each time(!)--think of it in terms of what I just told you!!

 

 

Ok, I'm going to try to post this for you (and everyone else that's doing the same thing) . . . see if I can do this before I waste any more time . . .If I'm successful I'm going to write another one either now or after work . . . YOU WILL NEED TO READ THAT ONE, TOO, BECAUSE YOU ARE MAKING SOME OTHER IMPORTANT MISTAKES, AND I THINK I KNOW WHY YOU'RE NOT MAKING PROGRESS--I covered this topic first because it is, in my view, a serious health issue. . . and(!), if you are using 5% extra strength rogaine, by itself, you should see full results in no longer than 3-4 months (even if you stop and start); 2% and finasteride take about 3 months from a "clean" start, and 6-7 months if you "stop and start". So, it's my opinion that you are right; there is something amiss--you did write in for a reason, didn't you?!

 

 

 

In the meantime, I would like to know how long it's been since you started losing your hair.

 

 

 

iiieee

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Hi vince,

 

I actually wrote you a fairly detailed report that day after work, but I've been having some difficulty with the functionality of this site. It took me about an hour to write but when I tried to send it it got lost--something about duplicate headings or something...

 

I'll just give you a point form version of the most important part, that way I can hedge my bets against time:

 

-I see a lot of talk about using rogaine extra strength and propecia together on this site, I've had some bad experience with this, let me explain . . . when I did this I had great difficulty getting the rogaine through my hair onto my scalp, so I eventually wound-up missing an area over my left side (I was making parts in my hair and filling them with drops of 5% solution...)--In due time (about 2.5 months), I got all of my hair back(!) and then, about a week or 2 later, the hair in that missed area shed, so I was "lop-sided"--anyway, I stopped the finasteride (a bit frustrated and depressed, of course) and persisted with the 5% rogaine for about another 3 months (to see if the "damaged" area would come back)--it didn't, and not only that but when I then switched to finasteride, by itself, lost some hair from both sides and things evened out, a bit (since finasteride is only equivalent in strength to, roughly, the affect of the old 2% rogaine--before the invention of 5% rogaine), the damaged area was still visible! . . . So, in layman's terms, I reasoned that with the minoxidil and finasteride working together, the vasodialating affect of the minoxidil would allow the finasteride to reach areas it would not otherwise get into, and so, when the minoxidil was no longer present (and the vessels or vesicles returned to their normal diameter) the finasteride was trapped in these areas, causing damage. . . Okay, that's not a very sound molecular biological argument, a bit specious--but it is a good way to think of it, in the sense that it provides a mnemonic, of sorts, by which to visualize and remember that there is a drug interaction taking place there . . .

 

-So, you might imagine, even if you never miss a spot, how this would affect the boarders of your 5% coverage; you're not spreading rogaine over your entire head, probably just the top (by the looks of your photos)--and so what happens as you apply it to slightly more or less area each time(!)--think of it in terms of what I just told you!!

 

 

Ok, I'm going to try to post this for you (and everyone else that's doing the same thing) . . . see if I can do this before I waste any more time . . .If I'm successful I'm going to write another one either now or after work . . . YOU WILL NEED TO READ THAT ONE, TOO, BECAUSE YOU ARE MAKING SOME OTHER IMPORTANT MISTAKES, AND I THINK I KNOW WHY YOU'RE NOT MAKING PROGRESS--I covered this topic first because it is, in my view, a serious health issue. . . and(!), if you are using 5% extra strength rogaine, by itself, you should see full results in no longer than 3-4 months (even if you stop and start); 2% and finasteride take about 3 months from a "clean" start, and 6-7 months if you "stop and start". So, it's my opinion that you are right; there is something amiss--you did write in for a reason, didn't you?!

 

 

 

In the meantime I would like to know how long it’s been since you started losing your hair.

 

 

 

 

 

iiieee

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Hi Vince,

 

I just saw my post, the one I thought I lost in the ether, and your reply. . . So, looks like, we've had a couple of misunderstandings and we need to find a common language. Also, after rereading what I wrote, I can see that I must have been tired after work--a couple of typos there. . . Anyway, because I didn't think it was posted, I wrote another one, more concise, posted it (successfully) and filed it on my computer. That should help clear up some of the misunderstandings and questions . . . I've got to get ready for work, again, but let me leave you with this: there's no way that rogaine could be making your situation worse, it does what it does biochemically and that can only help . . .

 

okay, let me get back to you after . . . In the meantime, make sure you read my last post (written today) and if you stop one or the other, make sure you stop the finasteride first!!

 

iiieee

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Hey iiieee,

 

Thanks again for you long response, but with the utmost respect I'm not sure I can put that much faith in the science of your argument for stopping Finasteride.

 

As I'm aware, Finasteride inhibits DHT, while Minoxodil stimulates blood flow to the hair follicles. I don't think you can really compare the strength of them as they work in totally different ways. Finasteride itself doesn't go to the hair follicle, but reduces the amount of DHT that does, so this idea of blocked Finasteride at the follicle causing damage just doesn't add up for me, sorry.

 

As it stands Minoxodil is not helping me massively. Do you still feel I'm making mistakes with it? Because I'm pretty sure I'm using it as I'm supposed to.

 

It seems to me that trying Finasteride would be a better bet for me as I'm not having great results from the Minoxodil. Surely hedging all my bets on something (Minoxodil) that's not working hugely well for me would not be the best of ideas?

 

I'm glad to hear that you think there's no way Minoxodil can be making things worse. For the me fact that they tell you not to continue to take it if you see no results is a sign that perhaps for certain cases it can be detrimental. Either way I'd love to know if anyone else has any experiences similar to mine because at the moment I'm still at a total loss. Will I make things worse by stopping or carrying on?!

 

With regards to my hair loss history, if you're still interested, I started loosing my hair in the early - mid 20's, it was very gradual until I started taking Minoxodil 15 months ago, and since an initial gain (or what I thought was a gain, perhaps I was kidding myself) my hair loss has been pretty rapid over the last year. I'm 30 in 6 months.

 

Many thanks, any advice greatly received x

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Hi Vince,

 

Ok, well, your response is interesting, indeed. And, I have to stress that I really feel your frustration, this really sucks--you just can't be sure what the hell is going on.

 

First, let me reiterate that there is no one on this site that has as much experience with these drugs as I do. I see a lot of remarks that just make me shake my head and feel sorry. . . The problem you're having, in essence, is that you can't make adjustments to your game and then stick your head out the window to see if it's working to establish cause and effect, because you're trying to affect a cycle that takes months to give you feedback. It's very tricky to keep a level head and make decisions under such conditions and the fact that you are using more than one drug and working out of misinformation about one of them (not to mention, ignoring possible drug interactions--that I have described) is making it, quite literally, impossible! (Experimental method demands that all extraneous variables be held constant in order to establish cause and effect, between x and y--your hair loss and a single drug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) . . . The reason I say that Rogaine 2% and finasteride are the same is for the following reason: When I started using finasteride,1997, it was not yet available on the market here in Canada. I had gone to visit a cosmetic surgeon to see about having a scar fixed and I told him that I had been using Rogaine (the scar was on my head). He told me about Proscar (I know, its hard to believe, I was seeing him about a scar . . . and he told me about Proscar; life is stranger than fiction) or finasteride, saying that he could prescribe it anyway (under the guise of prostate medication) and that I could switch from Rogaine (2%) to finasteride from one day to the next, seamlessly; in other words, one would take over for the other and there would be absolutely no change in my hair density. He said that a number of his patients had done that successfully, and so, then, did I. (Of course it was a great relief to just swallow a pill instead of, well, you know what . . .) Anyway, the corollary is, these two medications probably act the same way, because they produce exactly the same results . . . But, there's more: Years later, I needed to switch back to Rogaine (because I'd contracted an intestinal parasite known as Giardia Lamblia--bitch!...it caused me gastric distress that made me think the finasteride was causing the pain). I was worried shitless about having to switch back, even though I already knew it was safe to go the other way (from rogaine to fin) because, after using finasteride for a number of years in addition to my gains with rogaine, I had a lot to lose, and I was in a long term relationship with a girl that was, of course, used to me looking a certain way--talk about trepidation!! So, I got on the case and did my homework; I interviewed at least three different pharmacists and one in particular (an empathetic female) that went all the way for me--she really did some research, took her several days. Finally, she came back, very self-assured, to tell me that Rogaine and Finasteride work on the same principal, by converting DHT . . . Eventually, my gastric distress became so worrisome (before I discovered the parasite) that I made the switch, and it was 100% successful, no change, at all, exactly the same! So, I'd switched, both ways, on sound professional counsel stating that the biology was the same, and(!) the results were identical!. . . That said, there is still some molecular bio. mystery about how Rogaine works, it may enlarge the hair follicle or have some other physiological effect, after all, 5% works better than 2% Rogaine (when 5% was introduced, they claimed 45% more hair, over 2%--I still have a copy of the brochure/pamphlet that came with the package). And, it does--I've seen it for myself! (After a number of screw-ups, and stops and starts--such as you are now experiencing--when the the 2% didn't work so well, anymore, I switched to 5% and I got all my hair back, again, in 2000--after 17 years of serious hair loss!! (The 2% can only achieve this up to 10 years) In fact, they stopped producing the 2% (it's only available for women, now) because it produces the same results as Propecia--and Propecia is just so easy to administer, so why keep on producing the 2%?

 

 

 

So, let me get to what I think your problem is . . . firstly, it's obvious from you photos that something is going wrong; there's no way you should have lost that much hair just because the drugs have started to take affect . . . I think you are experiencing drug protocol failure. You said yourself that it was starting to work and then the successes began to reverse. Ok, I'm taking that as fact; you know what is happening to you, no one else can tell you that! But, now, instead of looking for your mistake, finding it, and making the correct adjustments, you are panicking and adding more complications that will blur your results (you won't know what to attribute your success or failures to and could even make things worse, permanently--as I've already described). Imagine how frustrated you'll be 7 months from now! And, what then? Wait another 7, going through more trial and error, and money for much less than nothing?! . . . You need to get your shirt together, now!!

 

Ok, so here's my advice, phase I:

 

1. I need to know the least amount of time you've allowed before going outside after applying the Rogaine (that is critical to its use, especially 5%--I, myself, went through a phase where I thought it wasn't working anymore, shedding, only to find out that it started to work again after placing monastic restrictions on how soon I would go out after applying). Doesn't matter whether its your first or second application of the day, and you only have to make that mistake (or any other) once to screw yourself for 7 months of I don't know what the hell happened?! (And, here's another news flash, you only have to apply it once a day--that's all I've ever done--except in the beginning, when their advertising had me psyched. In fact, it was my original dermatologist, Dr. Rudy, Ottawa, who told me that).

 

Phase II:

 

1. Stop doing the Finasride, now! Or it will turn into the FinastYride, later!!

 

2. Stop doing the Rogaine--a day or two later, just to be safe (remember what I told you about the two of those together!)

 

3. Then resume the 1mg Propecia (not 5mg Proscar, cut in half or quartered--if you want to know why ask). Don't worry about losing results or any further losses just because you already started the Finasteride; it's already a total loss because they work on the same molecular bio. principal! (And, isn't that what you and your pictures are saying?!)

 

4. Stop worrying, this will take, at least, 7 months to come under control, but will definitely do a hell of a job in the end, because you've only been losing your hair for about 6 years--remember the time limit for (potentially) 100% results is 10 years.

 

This will eliminate the possibility that your Rogaine application is faulty (because the drug is now in you, instead of on you), not to mention the agony of applying it. It will obviate any drug interactions and allow you to use the scientific method to answer your own questions with clarity and certainty! One step at a time! It will protect your general health and free your hands to play with your girlfriend--who, then, won't have to wonder what you're doing in the bathroom for so long, twice a day!!(Just the fact that it will allow you to walk in the rain, go swimming, camping and exercise is worth it) And, it will save you money!

 

 

Okay, Vince, now picture this: Terminator II, Arnold has just peeled the skin off his bionic hand and is talking to the quack that hooked-up Skynet to become self aware: Listen to me! . . . I have taken into consideration that we are different people, experiencing different rates of hair loss, but the drugs we are talking about are the same! The biochemical pathways we are talking about are the same! But, my experience is completely out of your league; I have had my ups and downs with all of this stuff for 21 years, and, I would be bald, right now, as I nearly was when I screwed up the Rogaine protocol by going outside too soon after applying! But, instead, I have a nearly full head of hair!!. . . You are panicking!

 

Stay calm, time is on your side and there are plenty of options open to you. You need to be rational and patient. And, by all means take lessons from those who have fallen along the way and got up to there feet, again. I know it seems like a guessing game, but you can't guess wrong and fall into the same hole if someone else whose been there is willing to share their experience!

 

 

Use the Force, Vince . . . Take the steps, Phase I and Phase II . . . Be healthy, be outside, get wet--no sweat!

 

 

 

 

iiieee (School of Psychology, Ottawa University)

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  • 6 months later...
  • Regular Member

Oh my lord, I hope that no one listened to iiieee. I just happened to stumble upon this kooky diatribe of nonsense and couldn't help but react since someone "might" actually think this guy knows what he's talking about- he doesn't. Im not going to get into detail but it starts and end with "propecia is meant to be taken only alone" and without minox, and that's why the op was, hypothetically, experiencing problems. The common school of scientific thought is that minox and propecia work synergistically, which means together. There are many online quacks, "iiieee" is one of them.

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