Dr Shapiro or Dr Wong.

[latinlotus]

PGP is saying out loud what some of us are thinking: how can H&W get such a large number of grafts when no other doctor on this planet can do the same. The obvious answer is the possibility of grafts cutting. It is somewhat similar to the claim by dr. Armani about 15K grafts patient, well we know how that debate ended...

 

It is hard to attack an institution like H&W, but PGP was able to make them start to provide the information on hair count from now on...this is a sign of a true patient's advocate.

 

Dr.Hasson, how about lets start by providing Bill's lastest HT hair count. Better yet, maybe just wait a bit so we can start another guessing game on Bill's hair count...some of us are salivating about getting another gift certificate from Amazon.com.

[Bill - Seemiller]

PGP,

 

As I said previously on this thread, I cleaned up the personal insult posts. This included an even mix of yours and Lorenzos. I did not remove all of his posts.

 

Note: you could have asked me this question privately since it's not relevant to the topic of this thread.

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr.Hasson, how about lets start by providing Bill's lastest HT hair count. Better yet, maybe just wait a bit so we can start another guessing game on Bill's hair count...some of us are salivating about getting another gift certificate from Amazon.com.

 

Latinlotus,

 

It almost sounds like you're making a mockery of a fun activity I started and out of my own expense. Knowing you, I can't imagine this is the case.

 

That said, I can't imagine why you would ask my doctor for my personal information when you know he couldn't provide it publicly without my permission. However, I did state clearly previously in this thread that I'm still waiting for Joe to provide my hair counts, but when I get them, I'll post them on my thread, not this one.

 

Bill

[latinlotus]

Latinlotus,

 

It almost sounds like you're making a mockery of a fun activity I started and out of my own expense. Knowing you, I can't imagine this is the case.

 

That said, I can't imagine why you would ask my doctor for my personal information when you know he couldn't provide it publicly without my permission. However, I did state clearly previously in this thread that I'm still waiting for Joe to provide my hair counts, but when I get them, I'll post them on my thread, not this one.

 

Bill

 

Bill: you took it wrong. I really think it will be fun to start a guess contest on your hair count. No bad intention here.

 

You are right, I forgot that Dr. Hasson can't reveal your info publicly.

[P.J]

Guys,

 

The other part of the equation is the scar you receive when going long and wide.

 

When you start doubling the average thickness it seems you are going to get above average tension on the wound and a wide scar

 

I would like to know how their scars turn out after these sessions - no offence Bill but your is pretty wide

 

I know some people dont care but the guys that are headed for a NW6 could possibly thin enough to expose a good portion of the scar and believe me they will care then just as if it was showing now

 

PJ

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

PJ That is an extremely valid point .

Most of the worst scars Ive seen have come from the bigger sessions .

Im talking about any clinic that does huge sessions.

If you think about it most guys that want megasessions are nw6-7 .

They are going to need at least 2 if not 3 or possibly 4 surgeries .

No one is getting restored with one surgery that is a 6 0r 7 and usually a 5.

Saying that it baffles me why any clinic would want to take the chance of complications by pushing the envelope more and more.

An extra 1000 grafts on a NW 6-7 isnt going to make that big of a difference yet it increases the chance of something going wrong tremendously.

Im a believer in your first surgery being one that looks totally natural but doesnt put you in a position of a great possibility of a wide scar .

You can then address the rest with 1 or 2 more .

I dont see the advantages for anyone but the clinic.

Your more then likely going to go back for another probably 2 surgeries so why push it .

I have a feeling as alot of clinics are getting more and more "brave" in going with these higher numbers we are going to be seeing alot more wide scars.

Some are willing to grow their hair really long in the back and dont care about a scar in how wide it is.

Yes Bills scar looked fairly wide but Ive seen much much worse.

[lost my swagger]

nevermind.....

 

 

pj-- post point

[Dewayne]

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

nevermind.....

 

 

pj-- post point

 

Well, I'm certainly a lot happier than I was 13 months ago. And I think I have pretty good 'cred' on this, as I had a mini graft procedure 18 years ago. The work was subpar, but I probably was better off for most of the 18 years. The doc said I got 300, 4 graft, 'minis'; but I believe it was probably about 100 and I either misheard or was misled.

 

But anyway, I'm a 42 year old guy who knows he'll never have the hair of a 17 year old, but my hair now looks pretty natural.

 

And, I could only wish all of my doctors (family, dentist, etc.) were as professional, knowledgeable and capable as one Dr. Cooley; and I thank this site for leading me to him.

 

Have I had days when I was a little disappointed? Sure. But, the good doctors try and manage expectations and I think sometimes ours are too high.

 

It's the same as in my business as a financial planner. I've had people disappointed when they "only" returned 14% a year for the past five years (pre-2008 of course ) But I've learned to underpromise so much I lose business sometimes.

 

Dr. Griffin in Atlanta, when I consulted with him four years ago, almost talked me out of the whole thing by trying to manage my expectations. After looking at my head he said, "Dewayne, I believe we can fix you up nicely but you're still going to be a person with thinning hair. Your dad is completely bald, and there's not enough hair to get you back to 25 years ago....."

[Bill - Seemiller]

Bill: you took it wrong. I really think it will be fun to start a guess contest on your hair count. No bad intention here.

 

I was sure I was mistaken Latinlotus. Sorry for making a false assumption and thanks for the clarification.

 

Now I have to get theEmperor his gift now that he's sent me his information - probably early next week :-).

 

All the best as always,

 

Bill

[uncjim]

I dont see the advantages for anyone but the clinic.

PGP,

Do you mean financially? In the case of Hasson and Wong, with their present pricing structure, they'd actually make more money if they performed smaller procedures, as they offer a discount beyond 2500 grafts. Small procedures for financial gain (keep them coming back) is an approach used by some clinics. This I know from personal experience.

 

I'm also of the belief that fewer surgeries, i.e. less invasions, is a good thing as there's less risk to the underlying tissues. Point being, if these megassesions can be performed with minimal risk of a wide scar, I see this as a very good thing. In my case, the scar is quite thin and satisfactory. That being said, the scar may not work for others. What's of primary importance for me is the head of hair that I have today.

UNC

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

No not financially as alot of clinics offer huge discounts after 2000 grafts and nice dicount on a second surgery

In my opinion the big numbers no matter how attained is a nice marketing tool and a huge risk to the patient.

Does that make me right ,I dont know but it is what I believe for a few pretty solid reasons

Yes less surgeries are better but I believe if you need 7000 grafts 2 surgeries of 4000 and 3000 are better then 5800 and 1200 or something like that.

Dont push the envelope so much if the patient is going to need a second surgery.

Also for a clinic theres no guarantee a client will come back so that could be another reason to get all you can .

We can go back and forth all day long .

My whole point to all of this was just dont get caught up only in the numbers as that can be quite deceiving in a few ways .

As long as the patient is happy in the end thats all that matters.

I wish all clinics would be required to show the scars so we could kind of get an idea of the differences in their smaller and bigger sessions

[uncjim]

I want to explain my experience with Dr. Wong as clearly as I can, as I believe his integrity has been under assault.

 

A primary reason for the megasession is patient satisfaction. When I first met him back in 2002, very early in the morning, we discussed the approach for the surgery. I told him that, because of the distance I was traveling (from Connecticut), I didn't want to return. His words were, 'Then we'll get as much as we can'. This was the case in subsequent surgeries. The donor area was pushed to the limit that the doctor deemed safe. As my donor area is filled with circular scars from plug surgeries, my yield was far less than would have been the case if I had a virgin scalp. The appearance of the strip was hair, scar tissue, hair, scar tissue, etc. My total of almost 7000 grafts over three surgeries would have been at least 40, maybe 50% higher. Of that I have no doubt. So I think we could clearly categorize my procedures as megasessions. In all 3 cases, I ended up with a pencil thin scar. Today, almost 15 months after my final surgery, the scalp laxity has returned. If there are doubters out there, email me at uncjim@hotmail.com or send me an I.M.

 

Now, do I think it's possible that clinics could inflate numbers as a marketing tool? Sure I do. Do I believe this is practiced by Hasson and Wong? Absolutely not. The numbers are there and they make those numbers public. Is this good for their business? Of course it is. In the end, they're approach of doing the very best they can for their patients, i.e. being the very best surgeons that they can be, has also been very good for their business. If there had been something insidious going on all these years, or a slew of unhappy patients, it would have caught up with them and been exposed by now. As stated by Dr. Wong in this thread, there is information out there for the public to garner if the interest is there:

 

For the non believers a video presentation of the technique I use to harvest wide (2cm+) strips was presented at the last ISHRS meeting.

 

UNC

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

"Quote"

Absolutely not. The numbers are there and they make those numbers public

---------------------------------

The numbers have not been there but as you probably read they are going to start providing them.

Nothing wrong with sticking up for your doctor.

Im sure he appreciates it

[uncjim]

By the numbers being there, I'm referring to the total number of grafts. I thought I made that clear. That's been public for years and what's been pointed to in reference to inflating the numbers as a marketing tool.

 

The breakdown of 1s,2s,and higher, as I stated earlier, was there for me during surgery and as the doctor stated, part of everyone's chart. Now that there appears to be a public clamoring for this, apparently the information will be forthcoming.

 

I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with someone sticking up for their doctor. As far as Dr. Wong appreciating it, he damned well better!

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Uncjim.

Its clear that you are happy with your result.

You have been through alot.

I know you said you told Dr Wong you didnt want to return but you still did 3 times.

I believe your a genuine guy but if you add a picture of your scar on your blog that would really help guys that are in your prior position

 

HW integrity is only slightly in question because of their own doing.

I would have to look in up but I believe they said they were going to start producing graft breakdowns back in 06 and they didnt.

I see your getting really sensitive about all this so I say again I think HW is a great clinic.

I can be emotional also except with frustration not hurt.

Lets all remember I believe if you choose HW youll have a good experience at HW .

They are a top clinic but imo they blow up graft counts for whatever reason they feel is the right thing to do.

I am entitled to my opinion until proved wrong ,arent I?

Never said it was right or wrong but now that they are going to start providing detailed counts I think this thread was very productive.

So a couple feeling got hurt ,I think thats irreverent since as Bill has said they have stepped up to the plate and decided to start providing graft breakdowns.

Guys now can go home and look in the mirror or have their wives verify the counts are accurate and report back that yes indeed there are this many 3s and 4s used.

I think like Bill said this was huge news.

We will now see how this all plays out .

[uncjim]

I returned because the "getting as much as possible" didn't satisfy me. The approach was for as much coverage as possible during each procedure. I required a return of scalp laxity in order to harvest the additional grafts to get me to where I am today.

 

Pics of my scar have been taken, but I've found them to be unsatisfactory. I think the only solution is to shave the area, but that's not going to happen considering the condition of my donor area due to the punch grafts. My contribution has been allowing numerous people to inspect my scar up close and personal.

 

I was totally unaware of the graft breakdown controversy. If the clinic indeed promised this and they haven't come through, that's not a good thing. From my experience, this would be totally out of character for them.

 

No PGP, I'm not hurt by your opinion which yes, you have every right to express. I do feel an obligation though to set the record straight by conveying my experience. Of that I'm passionate.

 

We agree, if this post helps the community, that's a good thing.

 

UNC

[NW5a]

Hi guys,

 

in my first research time my thoughts were the same like PGP. Why other clinics have not 5000+ cases ? Why other clinics can provide nearly the same results with less grafts ?

 

I think an essential fact is the big team of Hasson&Wong. Which clinic have such a big team too offer megasessions like we saw ?

Not many !

 

How many cases with 5000 and more grafts from H&W do we know ? Not many, if u consider, that H&W make 4 guys per day!

 

I dont know, if they are splitting the multi grafts, but the fact is, that every man, who go to Hasson&Wong wish a high amount of grafts, cause they know, that they will get a great result. If they??re really splitting the multis to create these results, it would be OK for me. Even if i have in mind to pay more for this artistic work and extra hours.

 

Just my 2cents

[Ron J]

If anyone is concerned that H&W are being disingenuous w/their graft counts by artificially inflating #'s w/nefarious intent, then how precisely would an additional graft count (of hairs) persuade you one way or the other? If you don't take them at their word now, why would you take them at their word later? I doubt too many guys (if any) are going to be counting each follicular groupings after their procedure. From reading many blogs on here, the fact is most guys don't even bother to ask for the total hair count because they don't care, since their results speak for themselves. I would also take their close up high quality pics & HD videos including comb through's, as opposed to the distant "portrait" looking pics we get from most clinics, over hair counts any day of the week.

 

I'm actually shocked this is such a controversial topic because no other clinic, I've seen, has been able to replicate anything approximating the amount of coverage & density in a single procedure as to that of H&W.Could anyone please show me ANY one clinic who has at least THREE cases which achieve as much coverage & density in a SINLGE procedure as any of the following:

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/p...ansplant_type=normal

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...1087683/m/7811031683

 

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/we...on_lad|gallery10.cfm

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/p...ansplant_type=normal

 

http://usuarios.lycos.es/forotc/spanish/spanish.html

 

http://www.nicnitro.com/hair-transplant-1-photos/

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...21087683/m/281107291

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...1087683/m/2311016063

 

 

Not to mention many of their amazing cases of two procedures. I'd be much happier w/the unparalleled amount of coverage & density they achieve in a single pass then I would be w/a piece of paper w/some additonal #'s on it.

 

Scars---

Now there's speculation that perhaps they really do move higher graft #'s, but that they do so at the cost of a larger scar. If H&W were really producing significantly larger scars than that of other clinics don't you think we would see at least SOME of their patients complaining about this, let alone (by my research) NONE of their patients are complaining about this (?). It would be one thing if H&W were telling tales of significantly larger sessions than any other clinic W/OUT pics to back it up, but the simple fact is they have been a leader in the most transparent documentation in the industry.

 

If you disagree, PLEASE SHOW ME THREE CASES FROM ANY ONE CLINIC WHICH PARALLEL THOSE ABOVE.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Your first post and lookie here I hate first time posters that try and come to the rescue on any thread.

9 times out of 10 it screams shill even if your genuine

Ron Jeremy Hmmmmmm Damn hahaha,

Your right they produce some amazing results .

Your not showing us anything we dont know but once again I believe the simple point is missed.

Its up to the other clinics "reps" to show their pics.

By the way a few you posted were not one session.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Screw this this is to much work but check out the graft counts.

Remember the Feller patients hair is only 7 months and short

 

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...deshow&x_startwith=1

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...21087683/m/384100751

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Compare all three graft counts

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...deshow&x_startwith=1.

 

To be fair to HW I will admit that Ive seen some amazing transformations but Ive seen just as many typical results that any top clinic produce on a daily basis.

Ron J I see your on here and probably going to respond but they have said they are going to produce graft counts and for that I applaud them.

They do have a large staff and maybe a knack to now when a select individual that comes in that has extreme laxity they feel confident in really pushing the envelope.

I think they have said this before .

In my opinion three things contribute to there results

1 fine doctors

2 using more 1s and 2s to cover more ground.

3 Willing to take a strip wider and longer then other clinics.

[Ron J]

-H&W claim to consistently move a significantly greater # of grafts than that of any other clinic.

 

-That claim is being challenged in this thread; w/respect to "true" follicular groupings, that is that other clinics allegedly move just as many hairs but have a smaller total graft count as a result of having grafts containing 3 & 4 hair groupings.

 

-If H&W's claim is false, then we should see a multitude of cases from a variety of clinics which achieve similar amounts of coverage & density w/SIGNIFICANTLY less grafts.

 

*I have yet to see this.

 

The case you showed above is nice work, but it is what I would expect to see for ~3K grafts; note his crown is bare and received zero coverage. In contrast, take a look at London Lad (a NW 6) who received coverage both on top and in his crown:

http://www.hassonandwong.com/h...6amp%3B+After+Videos

 

wouldn't you expect at LEAST an additional 3-4K grafts be used to fill in the Shapiro patients crown?

 

I have yet to see any evidence that other clinics are achieving similar coverage & density w/significantly fewer grafts. It doesn't even matter how many sessions it took, the same principle holds true. Just like in these NW6 examples, where it was not only the top or frontal third that received excellent coverage & density but also the crown:

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/h...6amp%3B+After+Videos

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/h...6amp%3B+After+Videos

 

Let alone these "wow" results I have not seen done w/significantly fewer grafts from any other clinic:

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/h...6amp%3B+After+Videos

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BvdBQL6fmI

 

http://www.hassonandwong.com/h...6amp%3B+After+Videos

 

If we can't find a multitude of cases from a variety of clinics which achieve similar coverage and density w/significantly fewer grafts, then why should we contest their graft counts?

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

My good buddy Bill has asked me to tone my posts down 4 levels so Im out .

Sorry for the few I pissed off. If you knew me would be glad I was on your side.

Too many guys ask for my help for me to be banned.

This was a productive thread but its run its course.

HW are a good clinic and Im glad they have decided to provide graft counts.

Lets please move on

[Bill - Seemiller]

Please Grow Please,

 

There are ways you can share your opinion respectfully without harping on people. It's just that there's been a pattern that when someone disagrees with you, you harp on and become antagonistic toward them. This does not make for a constructive discussion and detracts from the educational and support aspect of our community.

 

Knowing you, I know you have a good heart and want the best for patients. All I ask is that as you show respect others with opposing viewpoints.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

I may seem angry but there is too many other things in this world that Ill truly waste any emotion on.

I can see how some would read into it too much.

I have no energy or desire to keep this alive.

If this were Nuhart then yes but its a special clinic that has decided to up their game and provide a breakdown of graft counts.

I dont see any further discussion helping