Dr Shapiro or Dr Wong.

[Mr. GQ]

Mr GQ it really has nothing to do with harming the grafts you see they get good growth

i know/knew that.

but that still does not explain how careful one needs to be with the grafts.

 

is it true that splitting a graft does no harm to it what so ever - as per H&W?

is it true that you can drop a graft on the floor, step on it with the shoe, pick it up, implant it and it will still grow no problem - as per Robert Jones?

is it true that those 3 forces make huge difference when it comes to graft survival - as per Feller?

 

see i'm still confused and i would love to know just how sensitive those grafts really are.

 

perhaps i should post this question as a separate topic because i don't want to sidetrack this one.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dear members,

 

I spoke with Dr. Hasson a few moments ago and he told me that as of today, they have started to count hair groupings and will very soon be providing detailed hair counts with their patient results. Clearly however, it will take some time to see detailed hair counts in their result photos, but I imagine their immediately postoperative photos will include them. Kudos to Hasson and Wong for rising to the call of the members of this community.

 

I trust in time, as Hasson and Wong starts to provide detailed hair counts, that their follicular unit grafting method will become crystal clear.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Dr. Victor Hasson]

According to your theory we split grafts to get higher numbers. Consider this particular case.

 

After excision the total area of the donor strip is 29cm in length X 2.2cm in width totalling 63.8cm2. A micro photograph of the strip shows a density of 104 follicular units per cm2. The total yield here should be approximately 63.8 X 104 FU which gives 6635 FU. Our total yield was 5404 FU.

 

 

 

 

 

According to your reasoning we should have over 6635 FU from splitting the FUs. The problem is we "only" yielded 5404 FU. Makes me think that your facts are not facts but are rather excuses.

 

You asked for a picture of a big strip and said you would apologize. We delivered yet you continue to find fault with what we do.

 

Perhaps you should question the assertions of Matt Zupan who stated that we could only get 5% more hair in our donor strips. If SMG maxes out at 1.2cm wide strips we clearly demonstrated a 100% difference. Are you now going to question the safety of our methods? I assure you we do indeed have a track record which shows our techniques to be at least as safe as any clinic including SMG.

 

And by the way, if you think you think you can out talk sports with Mike Ferko, you'll not succeed.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Hey Hasson what the hell does SMG got to do with this.

I dont represent them I represent myself.

Do you feel threaten by them.

I remember Ron saying nice things about you so what gives.

Your totally different then Jerry I can tell .

I call it class and ____ to be frank

The way youve dug into Gable and Janna is plain bush league .

Use the find feature to see your comments

That being said you are a fine surgeon but you bob and weave like Muhammad Ali

When you say "it makes me think" I say screw that, if it was me I would say your 100% wrong and heres the proof.

Your OWN patient has said the techs have told them you dont use anything but 1s and 2s.

Instead of showing me strips of the dense meaty part of the head show me blown up photos of your patients with 3s and 4s implanted.

We all know the sides produce much less grafts in a lot of us

 

In the photos that were clear enough to enhance and transfer with an atlona converter to my plasma I didnt see any . I also didnt see any on 32 hi def LCD screen with a built in magnifying glass

You dont have to show me because Ive already looked but show the world that PGP Pat the owner of this site and your OWN patient are liars.

Hopefully I dead wrong but I need some proof that is clear as day. Real clear after photos will do it.

I dont care that use split grafts into 1s and 2s but just admit it for once.

Its not that big of a deal my man. Just keep it real playboy because we are not dumb and your losing credibility quickly

On a lighter note tell your rep Mike Ferco Ill bet him on any sports trivia.

Ill put up whatever money and all he has to do is put up his toupee. He does still wear it doesnt he

By the way that strip was not 2.5 it was 2.3 at the very widest and it was cut in half so no apologies here Mr.

I wanted this to end and go away but you wont let it.

One last thing isnt this your patient.

Was this from a 2.5 or 3.0 or something else

I see it got ignored so I figured you could clear it up

 

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/fo...=82589&enterthread=y

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Bill I just read your comments and I would love to see all their patients counts along with a top shot if possible . Ill then tell you if they are not using the grafts like all the other top clinics.

They can start tomorrow and post the patients pictures for us to see the grafts.

I want to see a 5000 graft case with a nice percentage of 3s with natural occurring 4s.

If they do this Ill STFU

I suggest all patients that choose H&W to have someone examine your head after surgery and try and count the 3s and 4s

The reason I say this is I want to be proved wrong

[Bill - Seemiller]

Please Grow Please,

 

You've made your point as to what you believe to be true, mostly based on points that can't be proven one way or the other. You've also thrown in a few irrelevant details (references to comments Dr. Hasson made other members). This appears to be an attempt to antagonize and further exacerbate mudslinging and has caused this thread turn destructive. This happened earlier on in the thread between you and Lorenzo and I had to remove a number of senseless personal insult posts.

 

Instead of resorting to name calling, let's look at what we know.

 

The number of hairs per graft varies from patient to patient - this should be a given, but it's important to note so members don't draw conclusions based on 1, 2, or even 5 examples, especially considering 4 haired follicular units are typically rare.

 

You claim that some of Hasson and Wong's technicians told a patient who told you that they only cut 1 and 2 haired grafts. However, during Pat's visit with Hasson and Wong and upon his inspection of the hair groupings of one patient, he did find some 3 hair grafts but no 4s. Pat notes that the number of hairs per graft varies in every patient. However, this in itself proves that the technicians do cut 3 hair grafts (at the very least, on occasion), despite your assertion that technicians have claimed to one of their patients that they only cut 1 and 2 haired grafts. Unfortunately, whether or not a technician told a patient who told you that they only cut 1 and 2 haired grafts can never be proven. So it's pointless to debate it and is only causing further aggravation and speculation. Therefore, we ought to stick to facts that can be proven. Of course, sticking to the facts we have so far, more evidence is needed to prove they cut 4 haired grafts. See Pat's Visitation with Hasson and Wong for a detailed review of their clinic.

 

A recent post by Joe Tillman of a Dr. Wong patient proves they not only cut 3/4 hair grafts, but that this patient had a good supply of them as per provided hair count breakdowns. This is more evidence that all patients have a different ratio of natural hair groupings and that Hasson and Wong cut larger grafts when these groupings occur naturally. Of course, this fact is on the basis that truthful information is being provided - unless anyone wants to come out and call them blatant liars. Unfortunately, at that time, they did not count and separate the 3 and 4 haired grafts from each other, so we can't conclude how many 4s were dissected in this patient.

 

Hasson and Wong told me that they are going to begin counting hair groupings and providing hair counts with their results. Clearly however, we have to wait for them to begin posting postoperative and results album displaying this information, but this is a positive step for everyone in my opinion. In time therefore, you will get your wish of seeing results with hair counts and then if you want, you can try to count the 3s and 4s if you can.

 

In an earlier post, you claimed you would apologize if Hasson and Wong showed you a strip as wide as 2.5cm, and you didn't. Then you claim you want hair counts to prove their not splitting grafts, and when they provide them (example above), you are in disbelief because you couldn't find many 3 or any 4 haired grafts when you took one photo that when you blow it up becomes too blurry to tell.

 

Though I certainly understand a healthy level of skepticism, it honestly seems that you'll never be convinced no matter what data you are provided.

 

In my opinion, the fact that Hasson and Wong are now going to provide detailed hair counts is huge. Instead of beating a dead horse, let's celebrate together for a victory won for both our patient members and Hasson and Wong for responding to the call of the online community. In time, upon viewing the hair count breakdowns, we will soon be able to tell whether or not Hasson and Wong cut 4 haired grafts when they occur naturally in the patient. After enough samples have been provided showing hair count breakdowns, we can also get a better idea of the average numbers of hairs per graft dissected at their clinic.

 

Frankly, this thread is no longer productive and continues to have tendencies to turn into a blood bath - which frankly, I don't understand.

 

Therefore, unless someone can give me a good reason why this thread should continue, I'm going to lock this thread in a day or two.

 

Bill

[lost my swagger]

Frankly, this thread is no longer productive and continues to have tendencies to turn into a blood bath - which frankly, I don't understand.

 

Therefore, unless someone can give me a good reason why this thread should continue, I'm going to lock this thread in a day or two.

 

 

how about because its not the blood bath your making it out to be... Bill you should know by now that EVERY thread with differing opinions has its not so pleasent moments.. WHO GIVES A DAMN.. were big boys we can handle it... and im sorry but PGP is supporting his argument just fine IMO....just as H&W are doing.. i believe it should be allowed to PLAY OUT ON ITS OWN..

 

let it continue because people are learning Bill, they are forming opinions based on the arguments being made before them.. THAT SHOULD SHOULD BE WHAT THIS PLACE IS ABOUT.... your dead wrong when you say this thread is no longer productive..the last few posts, alone, are PROOF of that if you ask me. that is if the reader is simply grown up enough to look past the occasional name calling that is in almost EVERY debate .

 

Bill, if you want to see this thread ACTUALLY beome NON-productive then locking it will get you that WITHOUT A DOUBT... just another thread destined to sink away...

 

let dr wong/hasson bring a little more to the table if they choose. i know PGP has some left in his tank, insults aside...

[TC17]

I don't wish to add fuel to an already raging fire, but I have to ask, if ANY clinic is splitting grafts, isn't that a shady way of increasing the cost of the hair transplant? If the doctors split for aesthetic reasons that would be fine, but only if they charge you for the natural groupings, and not the artificially inflated graft count. I don't think it is fair, or even ethical, for a clinic to charge you extra for grafts that they split.

[Acrobaz]

I would just like to say that, insults etc aside, I have found this to be a very informative and productive thread. It's taught me stuff I didn't know - and probably should have known - before my own decision to have an HT.

 

A leading clinic is now being extra transparent and, while he can be a raging bull, we have PGP to thank for that as well as for bringing an issue of concern to wider attention.

 

Just my two cents.

[stamos]

Dear Bill,

I have not intention to support Please Grow Please or to take anyone's side and also I admit that I am a newbie as Please Grow Please writes somewhere in this thread.

 

However I have two points to make:

 

1. They never show him a strip 2.5 cm wide, they just show him a shaven part of the donor area 2.5 cm wide.

 

2. If they could prove him wrong regarding his point for almost only 1s and 2s, they would have shown to him immediately a lot of grafts breakdowns, supported with post op pictures. After that I guess that Please Grow Please would have stopped talking about it, but it didn't happen and although I don't dispute them, it is just a bit strange that they have so well documented surgeries, with only the graft breakdowns missing.

 

Other than these 2 points, I admire the Hanson and Wong work and the prove for that is their happy patients all around the world.

 

Above is just my opinion, because I just finish reading this big thread and I do not want in any case to be counterproductive for the thread or the forum, I am just used to say loud what I think.

[Acrobaz]

... and also I admit that I am a newbie as Please Grow Please writes somewhere in this thread ...

 

stamos - nothing wrong with being a newbie. Even PGP was one once. But he knows his stuff, however he sometimes chooses to communicate it!

[balody]

Originally posted by TC17:

I don't wish to add fuel to an already raging fire, but I have to ask, if ANY clinic is splitting grafts, isn't that a shady way of increasing the cost of the hair transplant? If the doctors split for aesthetic reasons that would be fine, but only if they charge you for the natural groupings, and not the artificially inflated graft count. I don't think it is fair, or even ethical, for a clinic to charge you extra for grafts that they split.

 

this is a very good point.

[dakota3]

Very interesting bathroom reading material here.

 

PGP, Good investigation and you are doing more of a service IMO than a dis-service.

 

Bottom line however is that the only thing that matters in the end is the results,and both SMG and H&W produce some of the best results out there.

 

 

If we took graft counts out and judged strictly on results compared to price of procedure H&W and SMG would still be at the top of my list.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Bill please dont make it seem like Im making stuff up . Youve now taken my comments and applied the three detrimental FUE forces to them

The poster fixing it on THIS thread has said HIS techs told him this not him telling me . He told the world.

Secondly YOU said you saw a strip 3 cm wide . Thats were I was like BULLCRAP.

That strip was measured how some guys measure their peckers. That wasnt 2.5 if you look closely and I can almost promise you it was much thinner elsewhere. That part was probably where there was the most laxity

I also said I challenge Dr Wong to show me a strip of that length and width measured after being cut out.

Well since it was a partial measurement and cut in length then Ill give a partial apology.

That doesnt take away from the real argument though.

I love how some are taking the FACT that I saw for myself on 5 patients no 3s or 4s with a grain of salt

Blow the darn things up yourself and youll see.

Im not sure about other patients but the ones me and Pat saw have hardly any 3s

Anyone can claim 3s and 4s but if it doesnt show why would I believe it .

I had those grafts blown up to the size of railroad spikes so I wasnt dreaming.

 

I also love the fact when Lorenzo questions my knowledge and Hasson questions my intentions and I jump on them for that Im the overly hostile monster.

You know me Bill and know Im nothing but a GED having excon that went to prison almost 20 years ago for breaking the jaw of someone from the punkass clinic I went to and now Im here like others to help guys NOT go through the bullshit I went through. I have nothing to hide about myself and no hidden agendas even you believe this

My fricken life was ruined and I cant stand anything secretive .

I wont say what you asked me privately but if thats what a certain person thinks then thats the ULTIMATE compliment.

It shows me Ive educated myself enough to be seen that way.

Yes it is big if they provide graft counts and as long as they are honest in this it wont come back to bit them in the ass.

I never wanted it to come to this as Ive been asking Joe for quite sometime for a detailed breakdown.

The only reason I brought up Dr Gable and Janna is because Dr Hasson cant bully me like that.

Bottomline Im sure they have some patients that they have used 3s on but after years of doctors and patients wondering this I decided to find out myself and in 5 /6 guys that were clear enough to blow up I found all 1s and 2s.

Thank Lorenzo for all this. I still like Dr Wong and Joe no matter what they think of me

 

Hey Dakota I just read your comments and I agree . This is not about trying to make H&W look bad .

I had said earlier if Ron Shapiro retired they would be on my short list well not really because Im in the fue stage but you know what I mean.

Also I see Im really upsetting a select few so I will not be posting on this thread anymore no matter who tries to drag me back in

Ive made my point and stand behind it. My eyes dont lie

[fixing-it]

Bill,

You can't lock this thread,just delete the personal attacks.I know PGP gets a little passionate at times but it is for our benefit.

I was in the chair and asked the questions to the techs and know exactly what I was told.

After seeing another DR who is recommended here and told I did not have many 4 hair groupings but alot of 3 hair groupings it did not make sense to me that I was told I only had 1&2 hair grafts when I went for my HT.This is not hearsay,It is FACT.

Kudos to H&W for finally coming to the table on this.

[TheEmperor]

This thread is bothersome. For people who have researched HTs, they know that not all grafts are created equally. The spectrum runs from single hairs all the way to the punch grafts of yesteryear.

 

No one in their right mind would pay for a punch graft procedure because the grafts are large and unnatural, yet when one FUT clinic cuts the grafts into small follicular groupings, they are attacked and singled out for being deceitful.

 

PGP's manic writing style comes off in a negative way and he hasn't done a good job forming any logical argument. He just keeps sliging mud in hopes that some of it will stick. Its not clear exactly what his gripe is. It seems to be along the lines of "H&W are getting larger graft counts than other clinics, something is fishy! Wah!" This seems to be a negative continuation of Pat's original message which is something along the lines of "more slices does not make the pizza bigger."

 

This is a WELL KNOWN point of debate. Nothing new here.

 

But lets be LOGICAL here. Look at the picture that Dr. Hasson posted. Within each FU, look how close the hairs are clustered together. They are practically ON TOP of each other. If H&W were splitting follicular units, they would have to cut attached follicles apart, and this would potentially damage the follicles and impact yield. NO ONE has accused H&W of getting poor yield. In fact, they have more "wow" results than any other clinic. They are highly successful. If H&W were splitting FUs in half, this would impact yield, and that is just not supported by their results.

 

I would like to provide another explaination: Not all clinics are cutting grafts as small as they could be! In some cases where there is a "1" adjacent to a "2", the technician keeps them together as a "3".

 

When the clinic cuts them a bit larger, the dissection process takes less time (requiring less techs), there are less grafts to transplant (requiring less time). All in all, the clinic may be moving the same amount of hair, but in less grafts and less time overall. Is this a good value for the patient? For the doctor?

 

Cutting the grafts into the smallest possible FUs, actually creates more work for the clinic. I think that PGP was trying to portray this as bilking the patients for more money, yet moving the same amount of hair. But everyone knows that the 5000+ graft sessions take significantly longer, with patients in the chair for 12+ hours. So the clinic may have charged the patient more, but the staff is working harder, and longer, and there is overhead associated with this.

 

So the question isn't about whether the doctors are being deceitful, but what is the greatest possible value? As a patient, do you really want a doctor to find more 3s and 4's? The session will be shorter. You will save maybe 1-2K. For a surgery that already costs 15K, do you want t cut any corners?

 

I can tell you that cutting te grafts as small as possible is absolutely VALUE ADDED to the patient. You ABSOLTELY want the grafts to be as fine as possible (and patients with thick hair this must be more true). You can see into the hair. Smaller grafts represent smaller incisions, less trauma to the scalp, the most natural possible result.

 

So if H&W are cutting grafts a bit smaller, they are just making more work for themselves. The marathon sessions are going to be more taxing on the clinic, but this is absolutely value to the patient. The patient may pay a bit more for the total hair moved, but overall will achieve the most natural end result.

 

As a consumer, everyone needs to decide if this is in their best interest. If a patient is low on cash and thinks he can get by with larger grafts, maybe total hairs moved is the most important thing for him. He should seek out clinics using larger grafts, with smaller staffs, and shorter sessions.

 

 

Of course this is all a big IF. IF H&W are cutting the grafts smaller. I suspect that they are to a slight degree, but I think the occasional monster session sizes we see are mostly a result of their capacity to go big when it is indicated. Several clinics including H&W are turning out sessions around 4K on a regular basis. Why do we never see a 6.5K session from SMG? Is it because they refuse to dissect grafts smaller? No, it more likely because they are not geared to go larger when possible.

 

When H&W posts a graft count, that is to show patients what they might expect at H&W. If (say) Dr. Wong tells a patient he has the laxity for 4K grafts, he can look at their website and see what 4K grafts moved by H&W will look like. It is not a comparison or competition with other clinics.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Stamos,

 

See this thread to see a strip cut out at approximately 2.2 or 2.3 cm is width. No, it's not exactly 2.5cm, but it's close.

 

Please Grow Please,

 

Secondly YOU said you saw a strip 3 cm wide. Thats were I was like BULLCRAP.

 

Are you calling me a liar? I admit, my lack of memory served me poorly and I had to correct myself a few times on what I remembered seeing - after all - I was there for surgery that day and had my mind on other things.

 

Here is what I saw: I had originally said I saw a 3cm section of the strip already cut out. Then after I saw the measurements Joe provided on this thread, I figured I had to be mistaken and must have seen the strip marked on the patient before it was cut out. But after thinking about it, that couldn't have been the case because by the time I met the patient, he already had his staples in. So I had to ask Dr. Hasson when I spoke to him yesterday why I remember seeing a 3cm strip, and he reminded me that it was the same strip Joe provided pictures of in this album, but the tumescent anesthesia hasn't worn off yet. Tumescence always causes swelling, and in this case, the 2.2 or 2.3cm wide strip became as wide as 3cm. That said, the actual section I saw was approximately 2.5 cm measured in the scalp (as all clinics do). With tumescence, the strip became 3cm. And the tumescent anesthesia wore off, it was reduced to 2.2 or 2.3cm. Strips always shrink a bit once they are removed from the scalp due to the tension on the skin while its in the scalp.

 

The measurements provided should on the other thread show mathematically that they should be able to get just over 5000 true follicular unit grafts.

 

I don't think you're "making stuff up". But I'm not sure your conclusions are based on sound evidence. You've also seriously got to calm down and present what you believe or "know" more respectfully rather than attack people who disagree with you. Calling Dr. Hasson a "playboy" is inappropriate. Swagger says this thread isn't the "blood bath" I'm making it out to be. However, he must have missed the last set of personal insults I already had to remove from this thread between you and Lorenzo.

 

Im not sure about other patients but the ones me and Pat saw have hardly any 3s

 

By this very statement, you've already dismissed the evidence you had that technicians only cut 1 and 2 haired grafts.

 

I love how some are taking the FACT that I saw for myself on 5 patients no 3s or 4s with a grain of salt

 

Perhaps you should present these blown up photos so members of this community can draw their own conclusions. The last photo I tried to blow up that you claim you could find very little 3s, was so blurry that I have no idea how you could even count the hairs.

 

Anyone can claim 3s and 4s but if it doesnt show why would I believe it.

 

This statement is highly troublesome to me. Why is it that you're not questioning every clinic that provides detailed hair counts as to whether or not they're truly cutting any 3 or 4 haired grafts? Why are you targeting Hasson and Wong? You've asked for hair counts, and now they're going to start providing them. Now you're going to call them liars if they start showing counts showing 3 and 4 haired grafts? You are letting your trust issues become one targeted clinic's burden.

 

I admire your passion and still believe you've got a heart for patients. I also consider you a friend, we go way back now. All I can say at this point, is wait for Hasson and Wong to start providing the hair counts that you and other members (including me) have asked for. I am surprised that after demanding hair counts in the last several of your posts that you haven't yet showed any level of satisfaction or given kudos to Hasson and Wong for responding to the call of this community.

 

My fricken life was ruined and I cant stand anything secretive.

 

My friend, I know - and I certainly feel for you and am glad you found Dr. Ron Shapiro who helped you get your life back. But why not save your frustration for clinics who continue to yield poor results in their patients and not the ones fighting to give patients like you their lives back?

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

fixing-it,

 

Thanks for coming forward with this. I wonder why the technicians would have told you that you only had 1 and 2 haired grafts while another doctor told you that you had a number of 3s and some 4s. Did you ever ask Hasson and Wong for a hair count breakdown? Did you ever bring this discrepancy to their attention privately and get their input? Also, did you seek another recommended doctor's advice before or after your procedure? If after, how come?

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Swagger,

 

This is off topic, but messages being delivered to your email address is bouncing. Please provide me with a valid email address so I can update your forum account.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[TC17]

Emperor,

 

Regarding your above post, it is immaterial whether extra work is required of the techs and doctor when grafts are cut. That does not in any way justify increasing the total cost of a procedure. I am not saying that is done by H&W, but your contention that graft splitting requires additional work and is therefore somehow detrimental to the doctor is ridiculous. With that (unnecessary) extra work the clinic receives a significant dollar figure. As I said earlier, if the doctor chooses to split for aesthetic purposes and does not charge extra for the split grafts, that is fine. But since a great many members of this community are not wealthy enough to throw money away on split grafts, I find it incredulous that you would even attempt to justify a practice that increases the cost to a patient by invoking "additional work and overhead for the clinic".

 

That additional work is within the control of the doctor, as he chooses to split the grafts and thus increase the workload. I for one would prefer to receive less grafts, at less cost and receive the same results as one with more grafts, at a higher cost, but with the same number of hairs. While I personally feel that Dr. Wong does TERRIFIC work, I can not say that his sessions of 7,000 grafts are at all better than Cooley or Shapiro with 4,500 grafts.

 

I wish that all members would remember that this is a patient advocacy forum, and that without absolute transparency and open discussion on all issues, the forum will cease to serve its intended purpose of helping all of us. Without posts like PGP's (which admittedly is slightly combative) all members will begin following a group think mentality and blindly believing whatever the consensus is of the most vocal members and most prominent physicians. Such a result cannot be tolerated.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Damn dragged back in again This sucks as I just typed a long ass simple post so Emperor could understand my whooooooole point and then firefox crashed Danmmmm.

With all due respect Emp your having difficulty seeing the point but I understand with all this back to back BS

Im not going through this again but Ill make my simple point that has grown legs.

Im not saying using primarily 1s and 2s is wrong one bit if thats your philosophy

Im only saying dont get caught up in this numbers game .

Its become this general consensus that if you need a megasession H&W is the ONLY place to go.

Im just saying if you use small grafts those large numbers are going to be inflated. Thats it. Is that so hard to understand.

I understand they take wider strips also and thats why I presented that post of that guy with a huge scar wondering if a wide strip was the reason for the complication.

 

I had to post the fact that Pat and Fixing it and myself have also seen the use of small grafts to support my argument.

I never said they are wrong for adopting this philosophy .

 

Bill if I thought you were a liar I would tell you Im sure you know this.

It just caught my attention when you said you saw a 3 cm strip.

There a HUUUUUGE difference IN 3CM AND 2.2 but I know you know that.

Yes I give kudos that they will start providing graft counts . I just hope clear immed postop pics are included.

You also want me to provide the blown up pics which is impossible since your forum setup wont allow it .

If anyone on here thats legitimate and lives in Illinois wants to comes to my home or office I can show them and they can report. I have a 60 inch plasma that I can show you with and at work a 32 inch lcd monitor that has software in where you could see the cracks on someones fingernails like they were rivers

I tried to see on my computer but 22 inch without the software doesnt show enough

There are quite a few guys from this neck of the woods so come and see and report back

 

Bottomline once again is H&W is doing nothing wrong just dont get all caught up in the numbers all the time .

Yes they are a great choice for megasession but not Kings as some have claimed.

Like I said before I still believe Henry Aaron is the homerun king . Bonds did it with Hgh ,maple bats and the clear.

Also whats wrong with playboy its how I talk . Cant help that Im not a educated suburban college boy

Yes we do go back Bill and you know how happy I was for you to get work done .

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Bill I just typed one post and firefox crashed and know my post has to be looked over before it can be displayed Whats up with that.

Were there trigger words like playboy

[Bill - Seemiller]

Please Grow Please,

 

I don't know what happened but I'll look into it.

 

Bill

[TheEmperor]

Originally posted by TC17:

Emperor,

 

Regarding your above post, it is immaterial whether extra work is required of the techs and doctor when grafts are cut. That does not in any way justify increasing the total cost of a procedure. I am not saying that is done by H&W, but your contention that graft splitting requires additional work and is therefore somehow detrimental to the doctor is ridiculous. With that (unnecessary) extra work the clinic receives a significant dollar figure. As I said earlier, if the doctor chooses to split for aesthetic purposes and does not charge extra for the split grafts, that is fine. But since a great many members of this community are not wealthy enough to throw money away on split grafts, I find it incredulous that you would even attempt to justify a practice that increases the cost to a patient by invoking "additional work and overhead for the clinic".

 

That additional work is within the control of the doctor, as he chooses to split the grafts and thus increase the workload. I for one would prefer to receive less grafts, at less cost and receive the same results as one with more grafts, at a higher cost, but with the same number of hairs. While I personally feel that Dr. Wong does TERRIFIC work, I can not say that his sessions of 7,000 grafts are at all better than Cooley or Shapiro with 4,500 grafts.

 

I wish that all members would remember that this is a patient advocacy forum, and that without absolute transparency and open discussion on all issues, the forum will cease to serve its intended purpose of helping all of us. Without posts like PGP's (which admittedly is slightly combative) all members will begin following a group think mentality and blindly believing whatever the consensus is of the most vocal members and most prominent physicians. Such a result cannot be tolerated.

 

It is as if you did not read my post or do not understand it. I am assuming you are an intelligent adult so this must be an attempt to keep a flame war going, which I will not participate in. I'm out of here.

 

As you only have 21 posts, I suggest you are not a vested member in the community and know a bit more about this subject than your typical 21 post member. I think this must be a smear campaign. Bill, you should lock this thread.

[Zup]

You guys type way to fast...my head is spinning.

We're happy to respond, which we will??¦.powerful stuff on here.

 

Have not read everything...We will definitely add more to this, not so much as to- who is right or wrong.

 

Emperor, we are well equipped...no one ever has implied our work is not natural enough and we embrace all those 3-4FUs in their entirety and by no means do they affect naturalness as long as they are placed in the right areas. Smaller is not better when it comes to pure FUs, a 3-4FU is a pure as a 1-2 hair FU, Mother Nature found it adequate.