Dr Shapiro or Dr Wong.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I challenge Dr Wong to show me a strip of that length and width measured after being cut out.

 

Please Grow Please,

 

You might be interested in comb's hair transplant experience and blog. I was at Hasson and Wong the day of his procedure and was shown a section of the strip cut out under the microscope that was as wide as 3cm measured with a ruler. Though the whole strip wasn't that wide (some sections closer to 2 or 2.5cm), there's no doubt that they do these types of procedures on a regular basis when appropriate for the patient. I am not sure the length measurement, but the strip was taken past the ears. I would guess maybe 28 cm? Most clinics always harvest the strip in sections to minimize tension on the wound during closure. Hasson and Wong is no exception.

 

Had I thought about it, I may have taken a picture of it - but I have no doubts that someone from Hasson and Wong can easily provide you these photos if they desire. I've seen it first hand.

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

I understand they take huge long strips but not having a graft breakdown bothers me .

It makes it seem like they are hiding something .

It very simple to produce.

If it wasnt for a huge hi def monitor and me being nosey I would not be questioning them one bit.

As I said before I really like the clinic just want full transparency ,thats all.

Dr Feller preaches this all the time

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Im here to try and make all clinic accountable so there are not miserable guys walking around

[Drew35]

Please Grow Please,

 

I tried responding to your Private Message, but it wasn't letting me.

 

 

That's is fine that you are a loyal Dr Shapiro supporter, but I have decided that, with my level of hair loss, Dr Wong is my best option.

 

 

 

Thanks!

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Heres my pm and no I dont work for SMG like you work for them. I certainly dont think H&W is proud of you right now OhI forgot your not behind a computer your outside my door . I told you get the number chump

Posted April 07, 2009 03:37 PM

Hey man I saw your interested in Wong or Shapiro.

Those are the exact two docs I was deciding between .

I wont rave too much about Ron because it will come across as Im trying to lead you there and thats not why Im on here.

The one thing Ill say is if you do choose Ron your in for an unbelievable experience.

All the extras he does for his patients is phenomenal . Its unheard of anywhere else.

What sold me on Ron is I emailed 4 docs and asked on here 3 others when there was a live chat who would they choose to do their surgery and all but 1 said Ron.

Now for Wong he also does great work . The only thing I would advise you to do is not get caught up on their mega session ploy.

Ive asked this question on here so many times about hair counts and they never will answer with a direct answer.

Its not grafts that give you a good result its the number of hairs moved.

Anyway that and that guy from Seattle Mark ferko calling all the time really turned me off.

That being said they do great work just use the numbers as a marketing tool .Honestly though I dont blame them.

They have two docs there and need to stay busy

Usually I tell guys to do their research but I see you already have .

If you live anywhere outside of Canada have everything prepared for customs if you choose HW. They can be real pricks.

Especially leaving with staples in your head

Good luck in whoever you choose.

 

Registered: April 04, 2007 Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Private Message

PLEASE GROW PLEASE

 

Posted April 07, 2009 05:05 PM Hide Post

Not sure if youve seen this but I just got a pm saying your their patient HW.

Not sure what that meant as Im not affiliated with anyone but I wish you luck .

You made a good choice and did your research

It kills me to see guys make bad decisions

[fixing-it]

Originally posted by PLEASE GROW PLEASE:

I dont want to start anything but I find it funny that the measurement is the total shaved area .

They always shave wider then that.

I challenge Dr Wong to show me a strip of that length and width measured after being cut out.

If he can I will apologize

I remember when they were saying they take 2 cm strips to get these bigger numbers but after the math didnt add up its now all of a sudden 2.5

 

I also find it funny that in the huge number cases I blew up there were no 4s and very limited 3s implanted .

All 1s and 2s with maybe 5% 3s

Dont get me wrong they do a great job but imo the numbers are a huge marketing tool.

Bottomline again is they have happy patients and there are plenty other clinics that need to be criticized but the hype is a little overrated.

If they just provided hair counts like the other top clinics this would all be settled

 

 

All right,PGP and Lorenzo settle down.

PGP has a point about the lack of graft breakdowns from H&W.This has made many wonder about graft splitting/inflated #'s for years and I can see why.

Having gone there for my last HT because of their great results I did ask not one but two different techs at different times[when the other tech wasn't right there]about graft breakdowns and was told 1 and 2 hair graft follicles.When I asked about 3 or 4 hair follicles,each tech told me they never have 4 hair follicles and very very rarely have 3 hair follicles.

As you can imagine I thought this sounded funny and I made sure that they were not talking just about my head and they said no,We never have 4's and rarely 3's.

So Please Grow Please is just asking something alot of us wonder about and have not/will not get an answer for.

Even Bill doesn't have graft # breakdowns from his 2 latest HT's on his blog,which is surprising being a very conscious moderator on this forum.

I will stick by PGP and say just provide the damn hair counts!!!

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Thanks fixing it. Im glad that even though your H&W patient you have spoken and understand the importance of the breakdown.

Now everyone know where these numbers come from ALL 1s and 2s

Thats why I ask Lorenzo if he wants me to post the truth .

Instead he tried to knock me off my square by questioning my knowledge and turn this thread to rubbish

I blew up quite a few of their patients and then zoomed in on the grafts and I only saw 1 and 2 hair grafts.

To me that mega session marketing to the fullest.

I still think they are a great clinic just not any more 'special" then the other top ones

[fixing-it]

No problem PGP,

I am interested in seeing Bills response on this knowing full well Pats analogy of more slices doesn't make a bigger pizza.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Why is it that a healthy debate often turns into a personal grunge match?

 

Please Grow Please, you can be overly hostile at times and far too often provoke people into getting into a mudslinging match with you. Please settle down.

 

Lorenzo, why bother taking the bait?

 

However, since the last several posts only detract from the valuable information in this thread, I am going to remove the ones riddled with personal insults and useless information in the coming days.

 

Let's turn this thread around now and go back to healthy discussion and debates without the mudslinging.

 

Please Grow Please,

 

For the record, I have full faith in Hasson and Wong's ability to perform large megasessions of true follicular unit grafting. However, I do agree that all clinics should provide hair count breakdowns, including Hasson and Wong. I think until they do, there will always be those who question whether or not they cut smaller grafts.

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

You have my ok to remove any negative comments .

I know I can be an immature big mouth at times but I really do care about keeping this sleazy ass industry clean

As long as they keep using 1s and 2s only there will never be a hair count provided.

I wanted to leave this alone but Lorenzo wouldnt let me and now a bomb has been dropped and if they still want me to put together a collaboration of photos showing this I will.

They are a good clinic and like I said I really like Joe but to claim something based on secrets is kind of Armani- like.

The only difference is if Ron passed away I would have them on my short list

Oh and by the way they DO cut grafts .

Did you read what their own patient has said .

I knew this all along but only from an accident.

Using primarily 1s and 2s and pushing the envelope in terms of the width and length in the strip removel will get any clinic these numbers.

Bottomline again is they are a very good clinic but you cant claim to be the king of anything without people wondering how and why .

[Mr. GQ]

holly cow!

 

was testosterone running high here or what?

i can still smell the smoke and i can still see traces of fresh blood on this battlefield.

 

anyways back to the issue at hand.

i don't know much about graft splitting thing, but if that process does not hurt the graft and if it does not reduces its chance of survival, then i wouldn't be too concerned about it or should i?

so if someone with the good knowledge about this can chime in and say if "splitting" is harmful to a graft or if it does or does not diminishes its survival chance.

i know that squeezing a graft with forceps little harder than it is supposed to, could hurt the graft to the point of making it useless. cutting it in half, i'd imagine it would be even worse.

but what do i know and that's why i'm throwing it out there hoping someone explains the science and logic behind it. just curious that's all.

[uncjim]

I'm not sure where all of this is coming from. During the latter part of all three of my procedures with Dr. Wong, after all of the grafts were harvested and before Dr. Wong performed the final slits, there was a graft count posted for me to see. The count consisted of 1s and 2s. Anything above that was referred to as "BIGS".

UNC

[Guest wanthairs]

I dont belive for a minute that Hasson and Wong cheat on graft counts.

 

I had a counter in my hand and Dr. hasson counted out aloud each recipient slit and I counted each one as per his instructions. I was hoping for over 4000. I told him to do as much as possible and money was no issue.

 

He could have told me he did 5000 and I would have believed him and paid and still walked out happy. Instead I only got about 3600 which was less than I wanted but all that was there.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Mr GQ it really has nothing to do with harming the grafts you see they get good growth

I didnt want to comment on the comb thread as that is his thread but even you even look how Jotronic laid the paper measure on the strip its really 2cm not 3cm or even 2.5

First Bill says he saw 3cm out then Jotronic measures horribly. Bill just probably forgot.

Its all BS MAN .

Did you notice how the subject of grafts keeps getting brushed under the rug.

 

It just shows that H&W doesnt have some secret extracting technique.

I cant say on everyone but the guys Ive seen and the poster fixing it says only 1s and 2s were used.

Basically its just not a value to the consumer and it enables them to pound there chest and claim to be the mega session Kings.

Hey they still do solid work but if you want a megasession be prepared for a long ass strip that has been pushed to the max and basically all 1s and 2s

Thats not a whole lot different then anyone else just increases the chance for stretching but Ive seen guys stretch with limited grafts.

The only problem I have is they preach transparency yet hide the fact that they use a majority of small grafts.

I just laughed when I saw a guy go ohhh weee on Combs thread.

Obviously a newbie that has no idea what this is about but I have a pet unicorn I can sell him .

Idont get paid for this crap but they have a bunch to lose so Ill be quiet now and let them still claim the chupacabra is real.

Anyway Im sorry to rain on your parade but I feel people should know this.

If this was Armani it would be much easier to do this

Ive never spouted off at the mouth without at least one bullet in my gun and since they wont address the graft issue I suppose Ill keep this bullet for a clinic that deserves it

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Wanthairs it has NOTHING to do with cheating on graft counts.

They are not dishonest in that .

[Guest wanthairs]

As far as I remember I was told that out of my 3600 grafts, approx 700 were singles and the rest were doubles and triples.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

You also said you had great growth from Epstein Im kidding thats your biz I shouldnt kid about that

Did you even look at your head after surgery.

I know I did .

I hope they have changed their philosophy .

I did see a couple of 3 hair grafts in 2 of their patients so yes they have used them just not like other clinic.

Much smaller percentage.

I can imagine the talks behind the scenes right now about PGP.haha

 

Let me emphasize one thing .

Cutting grafts does not make a clinic dishonest If thats their way of doing it then so be it .

It just bothers me that there are hard working clinics that seem inept because their 4500 graft sessions look small compared to a 5400.

When you break grafts down ,use a ton of single on hairline and down the sides you have to split grafts and that natually leads to an inflated graft count.

Theres nothing really wrong with that just a little shady.

Plus its not all about splitting grafts they also push the envelope as far as strip removal and thats where they are emphasizing their reason but ignoring my fact

The thing that caught my attention at first was the slits were the exact same size .

You cant fit a 4 hair graft in a slit made for a 1.

Thats when I took it upon myself to ask a friend if there was a way to blow these pics up and zoom in .

What I found is there are hardly any 3s and no 4s used.

Even knowing this I would feel comfortable with them because their final results are usually nice

I just dont think its fair to the other surgeons around the world to be made out inferior .

You can take this as a bash but its not . Its just the truth and for that I have no regrets.

I would still recommend them if someone was really interested.

I hope they understand I was intrigued with their number so I did a little investagating.

Like John Voight said in that silly movie Anaconda "I didnt eat the captain Matao"

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dear members,

 

The debate as to whether or not Hasson and Wong cuts grafts smaller than other clinics is years old. Mathematics demonstrate that given the length, width, and density of their strips, that their graft count is right on for true follicular unit grafting. However, when Pat visited with their clinic and observed a 5000+ graft megasession, he could only find a few 3 hair grafts and no 4 hair grafts when looking at the trimmed grafts in groups of singles and multis. His conclusion therefore was that Hasson and Wong may cut grafts a little smaller than other clinics however, he recognized that natural hair groupings vary from patient to patient, and some simply have only a small group of 3s, and no 4s.

 

To see extensive highlights from Pat's visit to Hasson and Wong, click here.

 

Given Hasson and Wong's dedication to ultra refined follicular unit hair transplantation and evidence of stellar results over the years, I don't think anyone can question that they are pioneers in the industry.

 

That said, I happen to agree with PGP that in an attempt to hold all clinics accountable, that all clinics should start providing detailed hair count breakdowns in addition to graft counts. These hair counts should be provided in groups of 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s (and even larger if applicable).

 

Clinics that resist providing hair counts will always be questioned by at least some members on occasion in the online community.

 

There are many who will come through this community without bothering to dive into all the specific nuances of a hair transplant procedure. But for some, these nuances will make or break a patient's decision on which surgeon they end up selecting for their procedure.

 

In an age of transparency and public accountability, I believe it's in all clinics best interest to provide all the details of their operation in order to educate patients and other physicians. Doctors sharing what they've learned with other doctors and patients can only benefit the hair restoration profession as a whole and inevitably, provide patients with the best possible results. And that, in my opinion, is what it should be all about.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[lost my swagger]

Anyway Im sorry to rain on your parade but I feel people should know this.

If this was Armani it would be much easier to do this

 

 

this is prob true.. ive experienced this feeling... god forbid we attempt to keep the "top 5" honest.... they can do no wrong in some of your eyes obv.

 

i agree with Bill when he says that clinic should start providing a more detailed hair count, showing 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s---- perhaps we can start calling ALL clinics out on this... that is, if thats ok with you guys because its may include the "great H&W"...

 

an 'untouchable', 'unquestionable' reputation for one particular clinic can be a harmful even if the results are consistant.... its still about MONEY for these clinics. this is why H&W, Feller and these guys CARE SOOOO MUCH ABOUT THEIR PRECIOUS REPUTATIONS ON HERE... life is good while your on top.... ask cole, ask, Armani, and wolf, or Epstein... they were all on top once too before getting lost in the shuffle.

[Dewayne]

Originally posted by Bill -

Clinics that resist providing hair counts will always be questioned by at least some members on occasion in the online community.

 

Bill

 

LOL! I've just stumbled onto this debate, and admit I haven't read every word, but man this is a tough group. If I were H&W, I'd probably let my results do the talking. If ya'll didn't like it, move along.

 

The vaunted "top 5" has been produced by mostly regular smoe's like me; so any shots taken at it is shots taken at regular guys - not some publication that has christened a clinic #1, or #5, etc.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

My whole reasoning in this thread was based upon how Dr Hasson bullied Dr Gable at one time when he thought he questioned splitting grafts and another time when he posted one of the most arrogant posts ever .

Dr Wong is the exact opposite so I feel bad I included him but he is the other half and commented on this thread

 

I know I talk crap you should see me on the court ,ring and diamond but to belittle people for no good reason bothered me .

It is not a debate whether they split grafts its a fact. I wouldnt post this if I didnt discover with no doubt in my mind Im correct.

Maybe all the clinics should do this to get numbers but its certainly not in the patients pockets best interest

I agree with hillbilly I meant Deeeeewaaayne that they should let the results speak themselves,[just kidding Big D}.

The only issue I have is by using a majority of 1s and 2s you can take a 4500 graft case and make it 5400 very easily.

So in the end you have moved the same amount of hairs but paid for 900 more.

Id be willing to pay extra if they were the only clinic able to produce good results but thats not the case anymore.

They have a good system there Big wide long strips ,a large staff ,extra cut fus and two good doctors.

I dont blame them for denying this all this time because like Armanis drill its their secret to claim to be the mega kings.

Im going to end this and leave them alone unless I get provoked or someone addresses me but I would like to thank the guys publicly and privately that had my back.

I had a feeling I would be potentially castrated if I just spouted off without facts and the truth.

Now we all know H&W is still a top 5 clinic but not the King as a select few seem to think

[TheEmperor]

PGP and Original Poster,

 

Shapiro and Wong, both are great doctors. I have talked with both of them. They are both top-5 doctors.

 

You have noticed that H&W get slightly larger graft counts than Dr. Shapiro. I believe this is for two reasons: They go a little larger with the strip. I think they are more agressive in it's length and go around the sides a bit more. Most patients are going to need two sessions, but for a very bald NW6 patient, or someone with less loss who might be able to get by with only one surgery, going for an extra 10-20% grafts may be a good idea. They are geared for this, do it on a daily basis, have the staff to do it.

 

The other reason is that I believe they trim the grafts slightly smaller. Shapiro is known ot use some double FUs in the central area. This is philosophical. There is something to be said for the extra density of larger grafts, but also, having allmost all 1's, 2's, and 3's will provide most natural results under all circumstances. When you have a HT, you can see "into" the hair and the importance of smaller central grafts is going to aid overall naturalness.

 

So youve got two clinics with slightly differnt philosophies on how to do the first pass. Larger graft counts are enticing, and true. but they dont tell the whole story. If you want a "value" surgery, why not compare Shapiro or Wong to Bosley or clinics doing minigrafts. I'm sure you will get more hair moved per grafts, but the result will not be natural.

 

You are paying them for units of work, not total hair moved. A single hair graft takes as much work as a four hair graft. With H&W, you may be paying slightly more for finer grafts, but some people believe this is worth it. If you disagree, go to Bosley and ask for plugs for your next HT.

 

H&W absolutely provide hair counts. I have seen patients post the graft breakdown online.

 

That said, the final judgement should come from published results and in person consultations.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Yes your right but I prefer to have my grafts placed in the way nature provided them.

Your also right in different philosophies not some miracle as some seem to think.

Minigrafts and refined fus are totally different.

If Shapiro or H&W used minis there results wouldnt be a whole lot better then Bosley

Now that the cats out the bag I see no reason why they shouldnt provide counts

Also Shapiro has at least 12-15 techs that could cut so its not a matter of staff

Also Ill say this one more time H&W are one of the best no doubt about it.

I probably have some terminology wrong but Im sure people get the point.

Im not smart enough to argue with the docs but I know when something looks too good to be true.

If anyone want to argue sports then your in deep doodoo

[Bill - Seemiller]

Please Grow Please,

 

Yes your right but I prefer to have my grafts placed in the way nature provided them.

 

Just so you know, though Shapiro Medical Group does do mostly all follicular unit grafting, they occasionally use a small group of double follicular units, which are not hair groupings as they occur naturally. I'm not dismissing its validity, but I'm just pointing this out so you understand.

 

Minigrafts and refined fus are totally different.

 

Yes, but double follicular units are somewhere in between. I had the opportunity of combing through the hair of a few patients of multiple doctors at the ISHRS conference last year, and though the DFUs weren't noticeable in some patients, they stood out like a sore thumb in others.

 

For the record, I've been highly impressed by the results of Shapiro Medical and Hasson and Wong for years. Both clinics in my opinion are leading pioneers in the hair transplant profession and any patient going to either clinic will be in the best of hands.

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Yes occasionally but thats different then everytime.

Ive seen them use it maybe 5 times out of 100 if that and I believe primarily on guys with white hair

Im quite aware of this .

Just so you know this isnt about SMG.

They keep this fact no secret and talk to the patient about this.

Does HW talk to their patients about their trimmed grafts.

I certainly dont mind anyone disagreeing with me but SMG has nothing to do with my opinion.

Although Ive only seen 1 or 2 patients on here that had some dfus since this post Ill bring you back to the explanation

Oh and also I said I want them planted the way nature provided . They never asked me so I didnt have a choice anyhow. Not sure how the next man feels.

Also Im not opposed to graft splitting just the secrecy of it. Why hide this fact Oh wait I know

Im sure there are other reasons also not so sure what they are when the clinic hasnt responded

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...111063082#5111063082